PTS Update 15 - Feedback Thread for Armor & Weapon Traits

MyrddinEmrys · July 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Gonna put my 2¢ in:

The sharpened nerf seems a little extreme. Bring it down to 3.5k or 4k, but a 55% cut is unacceptable.

And before all the people start throwing accusations - NO, I don't have a sharpened vMA staff (I dont have any vMA staff for that matter)

Better not be lying? one wolf in skin of sharpen

I did't have ESO+ until this month, and never bought Orsinium, so unless I never sleep or have the best RNG luck of all time, there is no way I could have a vMA staff, lol.

Iccengi · July 2017

I like the rebalances a lot but I do think straight damage bonus's is now being made irrelevant. No one uses the damage mundus sorry. As we are universally buffing armor sets for crit why don't we universally buffdamage as well? Not by much. Maybe like 25-50 but that would be enough to keep up with crit and keep the meta from becoming crit stacking only again.

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Armor and Weapon Traits. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current Trait values and balance.

For future reference, could you perhaps include the changes in your posts?

I know you are being specific, but when the patch notes are long... you will get better feedback by including the section here.

Darkmage1337 · July 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Armor and Weapon Traits. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current Trait values and balance.

As several others have already done the math time and time again, the new "prosperous" trait value bonuses need to be doubled or tripled to even be close to viable and on par with other armor trait options. Also, it should probably be renamed, as others have mentioned.

Karm1cOne · July 2017

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Armor and Weapon Traits. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current Trait values and balance.

As several others have already done the math time and time again, the new "prosperous" trait value bonuses need to be doubled or tripled to even be close to viable and on par with other armor trait options. Also, it should probably be renamed, as others have mentioned.

Divine gold on small pieces gives 21 regen with atronach. New prosperous will give 7 per stat per piece. That seems about right.

SodanTok · July 2017

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Armor and Weapon Traits. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current Trait values and balance.

As several others have already done the math time and time again, the new "prosperous" trait value bonuses need to be doubled or tripled to even be close to viable and on par with other armor trait options. Also, it should probably be renamed, as others have mentioned.

Divine gold on small pieces gives 21 regen with atronach. New prosperous will give 7 per stat per piece. That seems about right.

This. The problem is not the value. The value is fair given what it offers. At least from objective point of view. But for 99% of players the value of offresource regen or heal regen greatly decreases to a point where 50% more of their main regen and nothing from the 2 other would be better.

JustSnilloc · July 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Armor and Weapon Traits. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current Trait values and balance.

As several others have already done the math time and time again, the new "prosperous" trait value bonuses need to be doubled or tripled to even be close to viable and on par with other armor trait options. Also, it should probably be renamed, as others have mentioned.

Divine gold on small pieces gives 21 regen with atronach. New prosperous will give 7 per stat per piece. That seems about right.

This. The problem is not the value. The value is fair given what it offers. At least from objective point of view. But for 99% of players the value of offresource regen or heal regen greatly decreases to a point where 50% more of their main regen and nothing from the 2 other would be better.

What are you talking about?

77 points is less than 10% for most stats, and less than 5% for others. It is not balanced, and is not worth considering.

Give me ONE example where the currently proposed prosperous is greater than the other available options.

The way I see it, the best way to balance it is to make it a percentage. Two percent at gold per piece for a total of 14% if wearing seven gold pieces. THAT would be useful, that would be balanced.

EDIT - If you start looking at the math and think "No, that is not balanced." then you aren't considering the fact that percentages in ESO are additive and not multiplicative. That wouldn't be 14% of your current max regen stats, that would be 14% of your base regen and any flat bonuses you have. The 14% would be mixed with all the other percentages for your actual total.

Example (for anyone not good at math). If my base regen was 2, and I had another 2 point flat buff, that would give me 4. If I had a 50% buff on top of that, it would give me a total of 6. Now, if my armor grants an additional 50% I would go up to 9 if we were doing multiplicative percentages. However, because it is additive, you add 50% with 50% to get 100%. Meaning that you take 4 (our base plus flat buffs) and add 100% of itself on top of that to give a total of 8.

SodanTok · July 2017

JustSnilloc wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Armor and Weapon Traits. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current Trait values and balance.

As several others have already done the math time and time again, the new "prosperous" trait value bonuses need to be doubled or tripled to even be close to viable and on par with other armor trait options. Also, it should probably be renamed, as others have mentioned.

Divine gold on small pieces gives 21 regen with atronach. New prosperous will give 7 per stat per piece. That seems about right.

This. The problem is not the value. The value is fair given what it offers. At least from objective point of view. But for 99% of players the value of offresource regen or heal regen greatly decreases to a point where 50% more of their main regen and nothing from the 2 other would be better.

What are you talking about?

77 points is less than 10% for most stats, and less than 5% for others. It is not balanced, and is not worth considering.

Give me ONE example where the currently proposed prosperous is greater than the other available options.

The way I see it, the best way to balance it is to make it a percentage. Two percent at gold per piece for a total of 14% if wearing seven gold pieces. THAT would be useful, that would be balanced.

EDIT - If you start looking at the math and think "No, that is not balanced." then you aren't considering the fact that percentages in ESO are additive and not multiplicative. That wouldn't be 14% of your current max regen stats, that would be 14% of your base regen and any flat bonuses you have. The 14% would be mixed with all the other percentages for your actual total.

Example (for anyone not good at math). If my base regen was 2, and I had another 2 point flat buff, that would give me 4. If I had a 50% buff on top of that, it would give me a total of 6. Now, if my armor grants an additional 50% I would go up to 9 if we were doing multiplicative percentages. However, because it is additive, you add 50% with 50% to get 100%. Meaning that you take 4 (our base plus flat buffs) and add 100% of itself on top of that to give a total of 8.

Nice math, I know it too. But whats good math when you arent capable of understanding the basics.
77 points is for MOST people 15% of their base off regen (that means the regen not affected by any %) Saying it is less than 10% is WAY off the mark, so I dont know if you even understand what are you talking about.

It is also at minimum 5% for MOST high regen PVP builds. You would need to run 1540 base regen for it being just 5%. Nearly nobody does that.

So you are of the mark totally just from the start. The only thing I dont understand is your "Give me ONE example where the currently proposed prosperous is greater than the other available options." Because I VERY CLEARLY stated the current prosperous is not good, but that is because it offers 2 regens you dont need.

33 regen per piece (231 total) is ~1.8x of set piece bonuses
Current infused gives you in all 7 pieces 800 resources, that is currently ~0.7x of set piece bonuses
If I use prismatic glyph so infused affect all 3 stats too like current prosperous you get 1241 of resources and it is around 1.1x of set piece bonuses (not very precise because health stat is valued differently than resource stat contrary to regen)
Full divines with Atronach or Serpent gives you 124 regen. That is very close to exactly 1x set piece bonus

JustSnilloc · July 2017

My point is that if it is outclassed by everything else, then it isn't balanced. Perhaps my suggestion makes it somewhat unbalanced in the overall comparison with other things, but by how much? Divines is often used as a "standard comparison", but Divines is also a Jack-of-all-Trades traits, of course other traits that specialize in one thing should do better overall.

A trait should stand out in one way or another so that it is a viable and beneficial option for certain builds. So the currently suggested prosperous fails on three counts...
1.) It is beat by the Jack-of-all-Trades at what it is supposed to specialize in.
2.) There is no reason to use it over anything else. There is no scenario where it is superior.
3.) It looks promising, but ultimately fails.

My suggestion has most players (as you've mentioned) gaining 98-140 regen in each stat. I've also suggested that this be made into health and stamina-or-magicka (whichever is higher), but honestly if you're a stamina build, you're not going to gain any significant amount of magicka. HOWEVER, if the numbers seem too high, I'd be willing to give up a stat that I'm not using anyway. :P

... also, Infused is also underperforming. If they simply get rid of Large/Small armor slots (as I've mentioned before) and make all the armor slots large, it would make infused worth while again.

SodanTok · July 2017

JustSnilloc wrote: »

My point is that if it is outclassed by everything else, then it isn't balanced. Perhaps my suggestion makes it somewhat unbalanced in the overall comparison with other things, but by how much? Divines is often used as a "standard comparison", but Divines is also a Jack-of-all-Trades traits, of course other traits that specialize in one thing should do better overall.

A trait should stand out in one way or another so that it is a viable and beneficial option for certain builds. So the currently suggested prosperous fails on three counts...
1.) It is beat by the Jack-of-all-Trades at what it is supposed to specialize in.
2.) There is no reason to use it over anything else. There is no scenario where it is superior.
3.) It looks promising, but ultimately fails.

My suggestion has most players (as you've mentioned) gaining 98-140 regen in each stat. I've also suggested that this be made into health and stamina-or-magicka (whichever is higher), but honestly if you're a stamina build, you're not going to gain any significant amount of magicka. HOWEVER, if the numbers seem too high, I'd be willing to give up a stat that I'm not using anyway. :P

... also, Infused is also underperforming. If they simply get rid of Large/Small armor slots (as I've mentioned before) and make all the armor slots large, it would make infused worth while again.

It is not beat by anything at what it offers. The problem is that what it offers is not interesting.

STEVIL · July 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

JustSnilloc wrote: »

My point is that if it is outclassed by everything else, then it isn't balanced. Perhaps my suggestion makes it somewhat unbalanced in the overall comparison with other things, but by how much? Divines is often used as a "standard comparison", but Divines is also a Jack-of-all-Trades traits, of course other traits that specialize in one thing should do better overall.

A trait should stand out in one way or another so that it is a viable and beneficial option for certain builds. So the currently suggested prosperous fails on three counts...
1.) It is beat by the Jack-of-all-Trades at what it is supposed to specialize in.
2.) There is no reason to use it over anything else. There is no scenario where it is superior.
3.) It looks promising, but ultimately fails.

My suggestion has most players (as you've mentioned) gaining 98-140 regen in each stat. I've also suggested that this be made into health and stamina-or-magicka (whichever is higher), but honestly if you're a stamina build, you're not going to gain any significant amount of magicka. HOWEVER, if the numbers seem too high, I'd be willing to give up a stat that I'm not using anyway. :P

... also, Infused is also underperforming. If they simply get rid of Large/Small armor slots (as I've mentioned before) and make all the armor slots large, it would make infused worth while again.

It is not beat by anything at what it offers. The problem is that what it offers is not interesting.

I agree with this assessment.

i cannot think of a single build where i thought "man, if only i had a few % increase in all of my regens" to make it better as opposed to say "man i wish i had a significant increase in my primary att."

Now, yeah, if it was high enough to mean it could boost my build even while being boring, it would be considered.

But that is not likely to happen.

IMO replace prosperous with padded (x resistance/reduction to poisons incl alchey poisons) and potent (x increase to poisons and alchey poisons) for armor and weapons respectively.

LadyLethalla · July 2017

I had an idea - with those who like to farm for gold bemoaning the loss of the additional gold Prosperous gave... make the ORNATE armour trait give this gold bonus instead - make it useful and keep those peeps happy too.

SodanTok · July 2017

LadyLethalla wrote: »

I had an idea - with those who like to farm for gold bemoaning the loss of the additional gold Prosperous gave... make the ORNATE armour trait give this gold bonus instead - make it useful and keep those peeps happy too.

No. It is not in drop rate in endgame content -> making it do something would mean it would be added
Also it is useful, it gives you more money from selling it. Far better use than trait for 5 people farming gold by killing mobs lol

nCats · August 2017

I will repost what I wrote

nCats wrote: »

Just how much damage you got to do to compensate for the infused weapon (oblivion glyph) with a sharpened weapon?

If we assume 1800 base damage, the damage over 5 seconds increase from infused is 1800+2*180*3 = 2880 damage (we do one more tick, and we get 30% more damage each tick). Divide it by 5 and get 576 damage per second.

If we assume that 576 is four percent of (battle spirit) damage per second we do on a player (the value which now corresponds to the new sharpened), then what the tooltip of our spammable should be? Assume dizzying swing, the strongest spammable damagewise. If 576 is four percent (after battle spirit), then the dizzying swing tooltip should be 2*(576*100)/4 = 28 800.

In no cp, a 12-13k dizzying tooltip is very respectable. In CP, I had at most 20k on an incredibly damage high build. 28 800 is realistic only in CP and only if you have crits all the time, which is not something a high weapon damage build can afford.

How much damage should oblivion do to be balanced with sharpened? For no CP, if we assume 12k tooltip, 30% crit chance and full impen target, then the effective tooltip is roughly 13k. Reversing the calculations, we get that the oblivion damage should hit for... 800.

All this allows to conclude that in order to balance oblivion damage, it has to be cut, for example by battle spirit. If that does not happen, get infused weapons while they are cheap.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , please pass this to developers as many players do find this disturbing indeed.

Kanar · August 2017

I think the buffs to crit are too much. With these new values every dps will be using crit sets. By buffing crit so much, weapon damage is taking an effective nerf. Max stat was buffed too, so why not weapon damage? If this goes live, crypt of hearts will be farm central for stamina dps because crit sets will be the most effective way to increase damage.

Lord_Eomer · August 2017

Kanar wrote: »

I think the buffs to crit are too much. With these new values every dps will be using crit sets. By buffing crit so much, weapon damage is taking an effective nerf. Max stat was buffed too, so why not weapon damage? If this goes live, crypt of hearts will be farm central for stamina dps because crit sets will be the most effective way to increase damage.

This buff pve dps and heals, its good!

WhiteNoiseMaker · August 2017

I'm very interested in all the trait balance tweaks myself.

Prosperous does still seem somewhat lackluster, unless it receives some kind of boost or outside-the-box benefit, such as the additional recovery being independent of factors such as blocking and/or taking place outside of the normal 2-second tick and being a separate 1-second tick.

Defending's nerf feels a bit like a low blow to tanks, seeing as how we're still rather an endangered species and every DPS swears tanks are superfluous to run content with outside of Trials. Not sure if the analytics really are showing that we're over-mitigating. Tanking is such a niche role, out of the nine traits available, what other traits do you as the Developers really envision us wanting to use? Some kind of feedback on what you think is are viable options would be nice?

I understand Sharpened being nerfed, as it really was be be-all-end-all of all weapon traits for all other roles, even healers. Not sure if the percentage cut as it is now is completely fair though.

Lord_Eomer · August 2017

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I'm very interested in all the trait balance tweaks myself.

Prosperous does still seem somewhat lackluster, unless it receives some kind of boost or outside-the-box benefit, such as the additional recovery being independent of factors such as blocking and/or taking place outside of the normal 2-second tick and being a separate 1-second tick.

Defending's nerf feels a bit like a low blow to tanks, seeing as how we're still rather an endangered species and every DPS swears tanks are superfluous to run content with outside of Trials. Not sure if the analytics really are showing that we're over-mitigating. Tanking is such a niche role, out of the nine traits available, what other traits do you as the Developers really envision us wanting to use? Some kind of feedback on what you think is are viable options would be nice?

I understand Sharpened being nerfed, as it really was be be-all-end-all of all weapon traits for all other roles, even healers. Not sure if the percentage cut as it is now is completely fair though.

Tanks can easily maintain resistance from CP, Class Passives and sets.

Defensive was mostly abused by DPS in PVP and nerf is important to stop this!

Merlin13KAGL · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

LadyLethalla wrote: »

I had an idea - with those who like to farm for gold bemoaning the loss of the additional gold Prosperous gave... make the ORNATE armour trait give this gold bonus instead - make it useful and keep those peeps happy too.

No. It is not in drop rate in endgame content -> making it do something would mean it would be added
Also it is useful, it gives you more money from selling it. Far better use than trait for 5 people farming gold by killing mobs lol

Who needs endgame gear simply to farm? WTH are you farming that requires that packs that much punch?

What I think @LadyLethalla is referring to is adding the live function of Prosperous to the current function of Ornate.

Sell it, you get more gold. Wear it, you farm more gold.

SodanTok · August 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

LadyLethalla wrote: »

I had an idea - with those who like to farm for gold bemoaning the loss of the additional gold Prosperous gave... make the ORNATE armour trait give this gold bonus instead - make it useful and keep those peeps happy too.

No. It is not in drop rate in endgame content -> making it do something would mean it would be added
Also it is useful, it gives you more money from selling it. Far better use than trait for 5 people farming gold by killing mobs lol

Who needs endgame gear simply to farm? WTH are you farming that requires that packs that much punch?

What I think @LadyLethalla is referring to is adding the live function of Prosperous to the current function of Ornate.

Sell it, you get more gold. Wear it, you farm more gold.

Who needs? Prosperous was already meh for farming. Making it available only on nonset gear is the same thing as not making it available anywhere. Maybe even worse, because it would confuse players to use it.

But sure, if it was just on all current ornate pieces (so no changes to trait droprate or crafting) then it would not matter. The thing above would still apply tho...

Franieck · August 2017

Hey, Zos, good idea of decreasing house motifs drop rates on the pts while completely leaving them out of template characters. Definitely helps in testing the content! a big applause to the geniuses that are responsible for the templates

LadyLethalla · August 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

What I think @LadyLethalla is referring to is adding the live function of Prosperous to the current function of Ornate.

Sell it, you get more gold. Wear it, you farm more gold.

Yes, that was indeed what I meant.

dpencil1 · August 2017

Great job on the weapon trait changes. We still need more from Prosperous, though.