PTS Update 15 - Feedback Thread for Armor & Weapon Traits

altemriel

***balancing**** nerfed sharpened.....LOL

Tasear

Back from the test server, I put 10 cp into physical restiances and nulled the change from defending staves. After all base stats rose a lot.

Something happened to twlight remedy as it went down 2kish from heals over time.

Marabornwingrion

ZOS, you are doing circles:

- before DB update sharpened trait was like 2.5k penetration
- after DB update it went up to 5.1k
- now you nerfed it to 2.7k

Can I ask when you're gonna do another circle and buff it back to 5k? (and few months later nerf again lol)

TheHsN

*Shapened reduces are GREAT...
*Make infused %40
*Make nirn %21
*And make precise %11

DONE....

I thats make the real balance.... But i like so far it is right direction i guess...:):):)

TheHsN

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Loving new changes to weapon traits through sharpen and defending can use little buff to 4K

it is not little and really they shouldnt buff it....

TheHsN

I dont thing that all farming grinding for Sharpened now is worthless....

Still it is the best trait for weapons just not the way too best...if u have it most probably still keep using it.
now people have more options to use
now people dont have to bleed from their fingers for sharpened...

Lieblingsjunge

The sharp/defending nerf is really good. They were the go-to-choice in almost every case. Now we might see some other traits be used as well. And with the MW-CP-changes it shouldn't be much of a problem investing 10 /15 (Wherever the jump point is between there) to compensate for it - if needed.

I think this patch overall is gonna be one of the best I've experienced in terms of item-balance and build diversity. Of course, there will be "min/maxed OP sets" but even if - there will still be alot of viable options now it looks like.

TheHsN

mzdarsky wrote: »

I would say these are prob your best updates.
I think
-prosperous should be buffed to 15 each.
-charged should allow this "Weapon enchantments will no longer proc if the initial attack is dodged"
-powered could go up to 10%
-decisive could go up to 42 to 44% an no one would complain.

It would really be cool if you had a trait or added it to a trait resistance against poison and disease

Leave sharpened and defending as it is or move them both up to like 3k.

if sharpened changed to 3k then infused should get %50 nirn :%33 Precise :%27 to catch up with sharpened.

hımm Actually Not BAD:D:D:D

Br1ckst0n

Obviously there is a lot of testing to do. Here my thoughts:

• Sharpness/Defending is a bit low. I would suggest around 3.5k value.
• Infused didnt need a buff. Live values are good. With torugs pact + infused you can get 10k enchant dps.
• Precise buff is good.
• I would prefer nirn as an overall wd/sd percentage modifier.
• Decisive could go up to 50%.
• Prosperus values are too low. 20 would be better.

bebynnag

performance request

can someone run some sturdy V's prosperous comparison tests on a PvE tank build (adjusting CP apropriatley)

thank you in advance

Olupajmibanan

I think that precise is new BiS for magicka dps except for DW templar.

18200 - 5280(major breach) - 3010(alkosh proc) - 2108(crusher glyph infused) = 7802 * 0,9(Penetrating magic) = 7022 - 4884(Concentration) = 2138
You need 2138 Spell penetration what's only 23 points in Spell Erosion. You'll have he same penetration as before, +9% crit, -like 3% damage from CP. I am sure that the crit will make for the damage lost.

MarzAttakz

casparian wrote: »

I'm not sure Prosperous is there yet.

So wearing seven pieces of gold Prosperous gear grants 77 recovery to all three resources. So let's say I'm wearing seven Prosperous, and I have Major and Minor Endurance and Intellect. (I'll ignore health for now since health recovery isn't important on most builds.) That's right around +100 recovery to each resource. Of course, I won't be running full Prosperous. But it might be useful as an off-trait, say, coupled with five or six pieces of Impenetrable in PVP (Well-Fitted currently plays this role on many stam PVP builds).

The cost of dodge-roll on my stamplar right now is 3716 stamina. With one gold Well-Fitted piece, that would go down to 3514, saving me 202 stamina every time I dodge roll. If I switch this out for a gold Prosperous piece (and have Major and Minor Endurance and Intellect), I lose these cost savings but gain something 14 stamina and magicka every two seconds. 28 seconds will need to pass before Prosperous gives me back enough stamina to equal Well-Fitted, and since I'm dodge rolling more often than every 28 seconds during a fight in Cyrodiil, I can't see any way Prosperous can even come close to Well-Fitted for stamina sustain.

So the question is whether the additional magicka sustain is worth losing all that stamina sustain by choosing 1-piece Prosperous over 1-piece Well-Fitted. I suspect the answer is No, since 14 magicka every two seconds is not going to make a noticeable difference in how often my stamplar can cast Ritual, or how often a stamblade can cast Cloak.

But I know ZOS maths and so I'm sure they ran through these same calculations. I just don't see the use yet.

I was going to post the exact same thing... whoever decided on 11 needs to lay off the prozac and have a cup of coffee.

Br1ckst0n

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I think that precise is new BiS for magicka dps except for DW templar.

18200 - 5280(major breach) - 3010(alkosh proc) - 2108(crusher glyph infused) = 7802 * 0,9(Penetrating magic) = 7022 - 4884(Concentration) = 2138
You need 2138 Spell penetration what's only 23 points in Spell Erosion. You'll have he same penetration as before, +9% crit, -like 3% damage from CP. I am sure that the crit will make for the damage lost.

Currently its nearly impossible to have alkosh on a decent uptime.

The penetrating magic passive only works for destruction stuff skills.

Most magicka builds will probably take the lover to compensate for the lack of penetration.

eso_nya

Done running numbers thru excel \o/
Feedback: Its amazing how u manage to change everything, by effectivly changing nothing.

TL/DR: Most efficient thing to run: Infused Weapon with Weapondmg/Spelldmg Glyph and the Loverstone.

Comparison:
Assumption: no other source of WD/SD than gold weapon (1335) and 3 jewel enchants (522) -> 1857
Infused: + WD/SD Glyph -> + 452 WD/SD, cooldown: 0 secs. ~> 8,59% potential dps increase* (9,79% for staffs)
Nirnhoned: + 200 WD/SD ~> 5,39% (staff, for dualwield is slightly lower)
Precise: given an average 75% critical dmg ~> 6,75% dps increase
Sharp: ~>5,5% dps increase.

Mundusstones:
Quick and dirty: Infused on big part ~> +0,35% dps; 1xdivine w/ Mage/Tower ~>+0,34%; this is good, but not the Mundus you r looking for.
Topdog: divines, because, u cant have penetration, critical rating or weapon/spelldmg on armortraits in any other way.
Now w/ 7 divines u get expected dps changes of:
Thief: ~+10,29 @75% crit dmg
Warrior (dual wield): ~+6,6% (counting in lower worth of weapondmg, for the glyph)
Mage (staff): ~+7,48%(counting in lower worth of spelldmg, for the glyph)
Lover: ~+8,39%
Tho thief looks higher by number, it is less higher, than what u will lose when u factor in mitigation from missing penetration.

Sets: Sharpened getting nerfed and penetration being as needed as before, well, there is one upside: Thanks to the increased WD/SD from the Infused Weapon Glyph, the difference between the sets is as good as gone:

Expected DPS changes when trading out 5 armorparts with same quality/enchant/trait for 5 from the follwoing sets:
(2,3,4,5 boni combined, assuming no loss from mitigation, except for nmg, where i assume the penetration is fully used)
Hundings: +14,86%
Levi: +14,42%
NMG: + 14,43%
Automaton: +15,73% (for physical)
Spriggan: +14,83%

Julianos: +15,64%
Sorrow: +14,42%
BSW: +16,05% (66% uptime)
Scathing: +20,34% (100% uptime) / +15,87% @60% uptime
Netch/Warmaiden: +17,13% (under funny condition)

This is a very good thing, as basically, there is no real difference in the sets anymore. There is no point grinding for gear anymore -> crappy rng resolved \o/

Sidenote: Im not using the extended formulas, and i do ignore rotations. It is a quick and dirty aproximation of if there is anything so much better than the rest, that its worth going for (which is the case for infused).

Im not to happy, that i get to reforge like all of my currently used weapons, but well i can only imagine how pissed i'd be if i had grinded for vma weapons xD.

*Definition: "potential dps increase" this is a term i made up in order to find a way to equalise critical rating/dmg, weapon/spelldmg and max stat. I am under the impression (and pls prove me wrong if u have any numbers indicating sth else!), that e.g. a 10% gain in spelldmg directly causes a 5% gain in dps, the same ratio goes for max stat. crit is slightly different as e.g. a 10% gain in critical rating increases your overall dps by that 10% of your critical dmg. In the above examples i assumed 75% critical dmg, those a 10% increase in critical rating would cause a 7,5% dps increase.
I aware that skills scale differenty from the different pools, but im not trying to simulate rotations and predict actual dps here.

Edit: I just noticed, that i calculated with 438 instead of 348 for the weapondmg glyph, lucky me: it didnt change the result much; glyphnumber was 2% to high, setnumbers were 0~0,8% off. Now with updated numbers.

Ruffbrack

I loved the number of changes that were provided!

The prosperous trait (will hopefully be renamed) and hopefully it will also be buffed. Realistically I do not see it being needed for all 7 pieces of armor (there are too many other things that would be more beneficial. I think it could be buffed up to 20-25 and be a good trait for a couple armor pieces. Theoretically you could do all small pieces of prosperous and have a flat 100 into each regen pool. I also like the idea of changing it to a percent so that my pool of regen could be buffed by (x)% of regen instead of flat.

I agree with @LordSlif about balancing the ice staff and the sword and shield.

The changes to the mundus look like fun. It will provide a larger variety of builds and I wholeheartedly agree with that decision.

Sharpened/defending nerf.... I like the balancing however i feel like they shouldn't have dropped as low as they did.

Rickter

why i understand the changes.
As a developer, I can see why they would want to promote diversity. If you created content and provided 12 options, but everyone only used one, as a creator, you would think you failed in some way. Think about it, you provide all these options and no one uses them. So to "correct" it you would want to push the utilization of those other options a little more. I totally get "build diversity" - but does build diversity equal build balance? What is the priority? if balance is priority, then the fewer influencing factors the better, right? fewer variables and all that. So when you push diversity, you inherently create more imbalance, right? legitimate question.

why i dont understand the changes.
Why shouldnt sharpened be BiS in terms of weapons? if you sharpen a knife irl, it cuts better. right? right. I just dont understand why a defacto weapon trait cant be had. I think the other traits should have been buffed up to sharpened to promote more out of the box thinking, but I dont feel like there is anything inherently wrong with a standard.

So if these changes stick, its whatever. But it just makes me wonder where the development focus is and all the whys

Olupajmibanan

eso_nya wrote: »

*Definition: "potential dps increase" this is a term i made up in order to find a way to equalise critical rating/dmg, weapon/spelldmg and max stat. I am under the impression (and pls prove me wrong if u have any numbers indicating sth else!), that e.g. a 10% gain in spelldmg directly causes a 5% gain in dps, the same ratio goes for max stat. crit is slightly different as e.g. a 10% gain in critical rating increases your overall dps by that 10% of your critical dmg. In the above examples i assumed 75% critical dmg, those a 10% increase in critical rating would cause a 7,5% dps increase.
I aware that skills scale differenty from the different pools, but im not trying to simulate rotations and predict actual dps here.

@eso_nya

Does this mean that the more SD you have, the worse Nirnhoned and Infused are?
If I have 2500 SD, +200SD from Nirnhoned would mean only 8% increase in SD thus
4% increase in damage. Do I understand it correctly?

Avran_Sylt

@Rickter

Sure, but in this world you can also imbue the weapons to deal fire/frost/poison/etc. So the 'sharpening' of these is the Infused Trait. Though, it remains to be seen if it's overtuned with the recent changes.

Ishammael

Iyas wrote: »

Torugs Pact + any glyph (especially oblivion) is too strong. Every 1.2 sec (flame Staff light attack) you get one wpn glyph proc (2996 oblivion dmg)

I'm kinda worried about this, too.
Will have to test.

eso_nya

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

*Definition: "potential dps increase" this is a term i made up in order to find a way to equalise critical rating/dmg, weapon/spelldmg and max stat. I am under the impression (and pls prove me wrong if u have any numbers indicating sth else!), that e.g. a 10% gain in spelldmg directly causes a 5% gain in dps, the same ratio goes for max stat. crit is slightly different as e.g. a 10% gain in critical rating increases your overall dps by that 10% of your critical dmg. In the above examples i assumed 75% critical dmg, those a 10% increase in critical rating would cause a 7,5% dps increase.
I aware that skills scale differenty from the different pools, but im not trying to simulate rotations and predict actual dps here.

@eso_nya

Does this mean that the more SD you have, the worse Nirnhoned and Infused are?
If I have 2500 SD, +200SD from Nirnhoned would mean only 8% increase in SD thus
4% increase in damage. Do I understand it correctly?

@Olupajmibanan
Yes.

Olupajmibanan

eso_nya wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

*Definition: "potential dps increase" this is a term i made up in order to find a way to equalise critical rating/dmg, weapon/spelldmg and max stat. I am under the impression (and pls prove me wrong if u have any numbers indicating sth else!), that e.g. a 10% gain in spelldmg directly causes a 5% gain in dps, the same ratio goes for max stat. crit is slightly different as e.g. a 10% gain in critical rating increases your overall dps by that 10% of your critical dmg. In the above examples i assumed 75% critical dmg, those a 10% increase in critical rating would cause a 7,5% dps increase.
I aware that skills scale differenty from the different pools, but im not trying to simulate rotations and predict actual dps here.

@eso_nya

Does this mean that the more SD you have, the worse Nirnhoned and Infused are?
If I have 2500 SD, +200SD from Nirnhoned would mean only 8% increase in SD thus
4% increase in damage. Do I understand it correctly?

@Olupajmibanan
Yes.

Thanks for answer.

According to my calculations Sharpened + Thief is still superior to Precise + Lover on Destro staff user, at least in my CP distribution.

Thief now grants 13,725% crit chance in full divines, and I have 77% crit damage what brings me to 10,568% increase in damage.
By switching to Precise and the Lover Mundus, I gain 1% damage from Elemental Expert, 1% from Thaumaturge and 1% from Elfborn (thanks to points taken from the Spell Erosion). Damage increase in this case is 9*0,78+2 = 9,02% increase in damage.

getemshauna

Great Job, Zenimax! That's a really good move.

Anrose

TheHsN wrote: »

I dont thing that all farming grinding for Sharpened now is worthless....

Still it is the best trait for weapons just not the way too best...if u have it most probably still keep using it.
now people have more options to use
now people dont have to bleed from their fingers for sharpened...

Agreed. People equate any "nerf" to "this is now useless" and that's hardly ever the case. Just because it's not longer the best by far doesn't mean it's no longer strong.

I like the Sharpened change. Precise, Infused, and Nirnhoned will now all be strong option in both PvE and PvP.

Olupajmibanan

Anrose wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

I dont thing that all farming grinding for Sharpened now is worthless....

Still it is the best trait for weapons just not the way too best...if u have it most probably still keep using it.
now people have more options to use
now people dont have to bleed from their fingers for sharpened...

Agreed. People equate any "nerf" to "this is now useless" and that's hardly ever the case. Just because it's not longer the best by far doesn't mean it's no longer strong.

I like the Sharpened change. Precise, Infused, and Nirnhoned will now all be strong option in both PvE and PvP.

Sharpened is still the best for PvE at least for magicka dps. People just need to wait for hard-core theorycrafters to do the math.

IxskullzxI

With weapon traits being changed so much, can we get some sets that only drop in a few different traits to be updated to drop in more traits now?

eso_nya

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

According to my calculations Sharpened + Thief is still superior to Precise + Lover on Destro staff user, at least in my CP distribution.

Thief now grants 13,725% crit chance in full divines, and I have 77% crit damage what brings me to 10,568% increase in damage.
By switching to Precise and the Lover Mundus, I gain 1% damage from Elemental Expert, 1% from Thaumaturge and 1% from Elfborn (thanks to points taken from the Spell Erosion). Damage increase in this case is 9*0,78+2 = 9,02% increase in damage.

@Olupajmibanan

Thats right. Basically, 7 divines mean:
Thief = Precise x 1,55
Lover = Sharpened x 1,55

So u should pick what u benefit most from. Should. I guess in most cases, u will have a look what rng grants u, and than adapt the other things towards it.

LordSlif

We need more sets with nirnhorned trait

Weps

If Prosperous is 11 recovery at gold quality then it's reeeeeallly weak.

SanTii.92

Rickter wrote: »

why i dont understand the changes.
Why shouldnt sharpened be BiS in terms of weapons? if you sharpen a knife irl, it cuts better. right? right. I just dont understand why a defacto weapon trait cant be had. I think the other traits should have been buffed up to sharpened to promote more out of the box thinking, but I dont feel like there is anything inherently wrong with a standard.

So if these changes stick, its whatever. But it just makes me wonder where the development focus is and all the whys

There is no defacto BiS trait anymore. It all boils down now, to group composition, and availability of penetrations and you own overall build, Cps distribution, mundus stones. Which is great, alliviates the huge nightmare that is farming the correct weapons.

ParaNostram

I kind of wish that prosperous would still allow the gold gain on top of the new aspect.