Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
-
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »Now shields are 30k? Lol
With 41k magicka on my current CP PvP sorc, it's roughly an 11k Ward and 10k Dampen. And it takes me 2 out of 6 seconds to cast those.
Getting more magicka has way to high of an opportunity cost (inner light is to many slots). And I'm already using the mage and a high-ish magicka setup
Anyone talking about shields being un-critable just needs to invest in impen. Bingo, you have the benefit of not being critted, and your armor resistance too.
Hot tip, most sorcs wear impen too, because all the other traits suck for PvP. 7x impen for about 26% less crit damage taken, or infused/Divines for about 1-4% more damage done. It's a no brainier.
Uh, with 41k mag I wouldn't call your build "high-ish magicka setup". And like you said, even 7x impen = -26% crit dmg but that doesn't give you the benefit of being not critted. Most people run way higher modifier than 50%.0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Really? How does that work?As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
Sorcs can:
Process of fighting a sorc on an non NB. You attack them, but they use their 30k+ spammable shields to negate any crits. You weaken them and they just stack again. So they run low on mag, they streak away, deal a few times, drop mines and continue attacking. They don't even need to break free from roots due to streak. They can just continue attacking from afar, and if you get close, zip.
What I would do is make streak/cloak not work in roots, and make defile etc work on shields. Every other defensive trait has solid drawbacks.
Not everyone's rocking 50k magicka in cyrodiil. It takes about 2 streaks to cover the distance of one gap closer. Deal leaves little stamina behind, and shield already eat full unmitigated damage as it is.
And making streak/cloak not work in roots would just get traded out for Myst Form. A root is a root - other casts work from them. Why would this be any different?
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
kookster✭✭✭✭My issue is that a good mag sorc, is tanky with shield stacking, has mobility with streak, and the highest consistent burst in the game. They have everything, that being said it does require a lot of skill to do it right and be highly effective at it. I think a nerf needs to be done to mag sorcs that will bring the higher tier players inline so they dont have all three, mobility burst and tankiness. What that would be I'm not sure.- One Idea I have is to actually buff the base shield and reduce their scaling to max mag. This would be a buff in no CP and a nerf in CP. Shields in no CP are under performing from what I have seen as a non mag player.
- Other idea is shields are critible, BUT it is reduced crit. IE instead of 1.5X damage 1.25X at most. This way we can burn them down, but not at absurd speeds.
- Reduce implosion damage by 25% if not more. This will reduce their burst potential some what without changing the over all feel of the class and nerfing the class into oblivion.
Edited by kookster on July 24, 2017 8:17PMPotato Pact - PC NA3 -
Dr.NRG✭✭✭✭Mag sorcs definitely need a nerf! They are currently the noob class for pvp as any half azz sorc can easily beat anout 80% of other gamers. On top of that dueling anyone with cp blow 630 is an easy win, however a 400 cp pet sorc will still beat most ppl.
Now that we have sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is not really any way to counter these guys anymore(unless you make a spcific cheese build with oblivion dmg or poisons) as you cannot run them outra stam anymore and thus they keep spamming shields..4 -
tossop✭✭Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
1. Survavibilty off any stam class in heavy armor is a lot worse what mag classes have. Heavy armor with 7k more resist is not going to prevent any comparable amount of damage what shields can do. 7k resist is 10% damage resistance, its cant be compared to 3sec immunity to damage, and when properly reaplied then for the duration of fight. Stam classes except nightblades must invest some stats to health, resistance or health regen to stay competetive. Sorc dont need invest in defensive stats because shields are super strong, they not needed another source of defense. But of course some using sets like amber plasm so they can use dodge also.
2. U have 9k heal, no one stam class have that strong heal(assuming halved in pvp), but even u dont need it, u have damage immunity through shields.
3. As i write before, sorc can get easy more resistance which helps when shield not up, so u cant get rekt in 2 sec. That is also little op.
4. Shield cost 3k magicka, u can spam it all day with 2k recovery.
5. yes sorc cant survive only with shields when 1vx, in 1v1 shields works good.
6. sorc can stack shields,just streak , putting 2 shields up and uhave at least 3 sec damage imunity, while doing at least 15k damage to your opponent, u only need enough recovery.
7. as u write, with medium armor u need something more while shields + light armor is good enough.
8. I write that heavy armor sets are good but medium armor sets are better choice for damage but survivability hurts without cloak. Thats why all decent duelers playing in heavy except nightblades. I will take viper over fury all day, if medium have some sort of survavilibity. Best pvp dps sets are viper, sprigan, red mountain, all medium.
10. Also templars was super strong with major mending but got nerf and their heals are 17% weaker now and also can by debufed.
1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
Sorcs can:
Process of fighting a sorc on an non NB. You attack them, but they use their 30k+ spammable shields to negate any crits. You weaken them and they just stack again. So they run low on mag, they streak away, deal a few times, drop mines and continue attacking. They don't even need to break free from roots due to streak. They can just continue attacking from afar, and if you get close, zip.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
Really? How does that work?As a magicka NB, I don't suppose you're even capable of understanding what medium armor users go through when fighting good light/heavy users currently, so why comment on that? Why ask people if they've played magicka sorc at a "competitive level", if you haven't done so yourself?
As a matter of fact, one of my 10 max lvl characters does happen to be magicka sorc, which is exactly why I know they're overtuned (along with heavy armor cancer builds).
Where are they exactly overtuned though outside of stacking harness + hardened + healing (with vamp) on low HP?
I´d say outside of solo/duo in cyro open world magblade has the all around way better toolkit compared to a magsorc (and thats only bc of cloak being wonky and streak being good against noobs).
You can build sorc hypermobile (but sacrifice dmg and survivability infight - also they don´t synergise well with other classes) or you build them supertanky (for 1v1 scenarios mind you).
There is a reason why you don´t see sorc dueling builds in cyrodiil - they´re super strong 1v1 but their scaling against multiple attackers is abysmal.
What would you change about sorcs? Especially when not only looking at one aspect (dueling) and not taking into account how this would affect builds that have a less optimised setup.
Sorcs can:
Process of fighting a sorc on an non NB. You attack them, but they use their 30k+ spammable shields to negate any crits. You weaken them and they just stack again. So they run low on mag, they streak away, deal a few times, drop mines and continue attacking. They don't even need to break free from roots due to streak. They can just continue attacking from afar, and if you get close, zip.
What I would do is make streak/cloak not work in roots, and make defile etc work on shields. Every other defensive trait has solid drawbacks.
Not everyone's rocking 50k magicka in cyrodiil. It takes about 2 streaks to cover the distance of one gap closer. Deal leaves little stamina behind, and shield already eat full unmitigated damage as it is.
And making streak/cloak not work in roots would just get traded out for Myst Form. A root is a root - other casts work from them. Why would this be any different?
I chose my words carefully. Low, not no. And why should streak be able to be cast from root it already is an aoe stun/absorb and doesn't need a target. Only tp strike(don't agree with, but needs a target) and dragonleap (ulti and targeted) Allowing sorcs to completely say *** off to roots is stupid.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
tossop✭✭My issue is that a good mag sorc, is tanky with shield stacking, has mobility with streak, and the highest consistent burst in the game. They have everything, that being said it does require a lot of skill to do it right and be highly effective at it. I think a nerf needs to be done to mag sorcs that will bring the higher tier players inline so they dont have all three, mobility burst and tankiness. What that would be I'm not sure.
- One Idea I have is to actually buff the base shield and reduce their scaling to max mag. This would be a buff in no CP and a nerf in CP. Shields in no CP are under performing from what I have seen as a non mag player.
- Other idea is shields are critible, BUT it is reduced crit. IE instead of 1.5X damage 1.25X at most. This way we can burn them down, but not at absurd speeds.
- Reduce implosion damage by 25% if not more. This will reduce their burst potential some what without changing the over all feel of the class and nerfing the class into oblivion.
Balancing shields strenght can be done with very many ways. Best for me is that shields have static value like 8k shield, or nerfing scaling or cost or stacking. They can be affected defile also witch brings counter play etc.
0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Micah_Bayer wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 500
+480 to be exact, that's what you get on Hardened Ward for 1000 magicka.
Of course, this is halved in PvP but same goes for the Vigor numbers.Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
There are top players using medium armor - when they're ganking. And that by nature means targeting squishies & less skilled/reactive players. If you want to beat (not escape from) actual good players (or even semi-decent ones), medium armor is not an option.
And magicka sorc definitely can survive on shields & CC break alone, just like heavy can survive with mitigation. Guess who can't survive & has to escape (good luck with that unless you're stamblade with Shadow Image)? Yeah, medium.
Back when this game was more balanced, you were able to stand your ground & outheal most of the incoming damage as medium armor, and what you couldn't outheal you could (had to) dodge.
These days, you can't outheal most of the incoming damage and the damage you definitely cannot outheal you can't even dodge.
It comes back to the same thing over and over.. you're only looking at 1v1 - which rarely happens in PVP. Yes sorc can survive on shields and cc break alone against a single person. But then I just had a long fight against a sorc with my stamplar. I survived with vigour/block/dodge alone (not unlocked rally yet - only lvl 35). He gave up and went away.
Its all about how these defences scale vs more attackers - and shields scale VERY badly. There's a reason I run quite a bit of well-fitted along with a bit of stam recov on my magsorc.Edited by Biro123 on July 25, 2017 12:40AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Balthyzar✭✭✭Because they don't need to be nerfed anymore. Sorcs were nerfed several times earlier on in the game while classes that needed to be nerfed like night blades got ignored. Stop complaining just because they finally got around to hitting your class with a nerf.Balthyzar,
Heir to House Dagoth & last of the Aundae6 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭I'm getting really tired of the "I don't play this class/style/It's cheap/cowardly in duels, so nerf it into the ground" mentality. First of all, nothing should be nerfed into the ground. That's stupid and overkill, and slams into "play how you want" with a freight train. Just because you dislike/ don't want to play against a certain build doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, and it certainly doesn't mean you should berate those who do. If anything, you should be requesting with all that fervor and zeal that your preferred classes be brought up to a higher level, perhaps with some reasoned nerfs to sorc. Don't gut/kill my class just because you're miserable playing yours.
Second, there's far more to this game than PvP. I main a PvE magsorc, because it's what I got started as. I use a pet, because that playstyle best fits my idea of what a sorcerer should be, and has since pre-Skyrim. When I venture into PvP, though, he's relegated to Oblivion. Why? For one thing, he's constantly running off to do his own thing, to the point he's earned the nickname Rambo, or getting stuck in random bits of terrain. For another, you have to slot the pet on both bars to avoid him disappearing on weaponswap, and I'd rather have a different skill in that spot. Additionally, the idea of going 2 against 1 in a duel doesn't sit right with me. Not that I ever duel. I have that turned off.
As for shields, perhaps something can/should be done to limit shield stacking, but I would absolutely prefer it didn't involve annihilating the power of individual shields in the process. Just because you're facing people with 50-60k magicka doesn't mean that's the norm, and a lot of the changes you're proposing will hurt those below that mark far more than those at or above it. Perhaps a diminishing returns approach would be warranted, to bring those highest shields in line, but battle spirit already knocks that shield value down to 9 or 10k tops. And with the sustain changes, if you're running frags, force pulse, and multiple shields, and not managing your rotation properly, you're sucking fumes in no time. If you're using streak to get away, and the 6 second proactive shield you put up times out or gets knocked down, you get to choose between reupping that shield/braving the CC barrage, and continuing on and hoping your health is enough to get you out.
On top of that, streak has the dodge roll style fatigue mechanic (with nothing like well-fitted), so you either need to time your streaks right (while dodging the CC) or run out of magicka and not be able to streak. Voila. Counterplay.
Instead of asking "Why aren't they nerfing sorcs" patch after patch, perhaps you should be asking "Why aren't they buffing other classes/playstyles?"0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Micah_Bayer wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 500
+480 to be exact, that's what you get on Hardened Ward for 1000 magicka.
Of course, this is halved in PvP but same goes for the Vigor numbers.Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
There are top players using medium armor - when they're ganking. And that by nature means targeting squishies & less skilled/reactive players. If you want to beat (not escape from) actual good players (or even semi-decent ones), medium armor is not an option.
And magicka sorc definitely can survive on shields & CC break alone, just like heavy can survive with mitigation. Guess who can't survive & has to escape (good luck with that unless you're stamblade with Shadow Image)? Yeah, medium.
Back when this game was more balanced, you were able to stand your ground & outheal most of the incoming damage as medium armor, and what you couldn't outheal you could (had to) dodge.
These days, you can't outheal most of the incoming damage and the damage you definitely cannot outheal you can't even dodge.
It comes back to the same thing over and over.. you're only looking at 1v1 - which rarely happens in PVP. Yes sorc can survive on shields and cc break alone against a single person. But then I just had a long fight against a sorc with my stamplar. I survived with vigour/block/dodge alone (not unlocked rally yet - only lvl 35). He gave up and went away.
Its all about how these defences scale vs more attackers - and shields scale VERY badly. There's a reason I run quite a bit of well-fitted along with a bit of stam recov on my magsorc.
Well, obviously I'm looking at 1v1 first & foremost, because that's the rock foundation of combat balance.
How do you expect to 1vX on a medium stam build, if you can't even 1v1 competitively? The only time you should look past 1v1 capabilities when balancing a game is when a class/build has insane AoE capabilities and is specifically built to kill multiple people in an area (in which case I can see why a somewhat lower 1v1 potency is warranted).
As for surviving on a sorc vs multiple people, you can definitely survive with 15k+ shields (and not only do they prevent crits from happening, this is a much higher value than templar/warden instant heals for example) vs quite a few people, assuming you burst some of them down quick enough to reduce the pressure. If things go south, you've always got streak to get away.
You might think shields scale "very badly" against multiple attackers, but when you compare it to Vigor it's laughable.
With 4k weapon damage & 36k stamina, my Vigor heals for less over 5 seconds (not even counting Major Defile) than a single instant cast sorc shield prevents damage (and provides more mitigation than medium armor by removing crits from the equation).
And don't tell me that dodge roll is good against multiple attackers, it is not when the vast majority of skills in game ignore it entirely.
Just for example, if you have a warden spamming birds at you and a templar jbeaming/soul assaulting you for instance, you'll melt in 2 seconds - nothing you can do about that unless you're a stamblade & your cloak miraculously works.4 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stop the Nerf train. What these Nerf threads seem to always be is someone in PVP gets beaten by "insert class here" and it's "Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!" .2 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Micah_Bayer wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 500
+480 to be exact, that's what you get on Hardened Ward for 1000 magicka.
Of course, this is halved in PvP but same goes for the Vigor numbers.Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
There are top players using medium armor - when they're ganking. And that by nature means targeting squishies & less skilled/reactive players. If you want to beat (not escape from) actual good players (or even semi-decent ones), medium armor is not an option.
And magicka sorc definitely can survive on shields & CC break alone, just like heavy can survive with mitigation. Guess who can't survive & has to escape (good luck with that unless you're stamblade with Shadow Image)? Yeah, medium.
Back when this game was more balanced, you were able to stand your ground & outheal most of the incoming damage as medium armor, and what you couldn't outheal you could (had to) dodge.
These days, you can't outheal most of the incoming damage and the damage you definitely cannot outheal you can't even dodge.
It comes back to the same thing over and over.. you're only looking at 1v1 - which rarely happens in PVP. Yes sorc can survive on shields and cc break alone against a single person. But then I just had a long fight against a sorc with my stamplar. I survived with vigour/block/dodge alone (not unlocked rally yet - only lvl 35). He gave up and went away.
Its all about how these defences scale vs more attackers - and shields scale VERY badly. There's a reason I run quite a bit of well-fitted along with a bit of stam recov on my magsorc.
Well, obviously I'm looking at 1v1 first & foremost, because that's the rock foundation of combat balance.
How do you expect to 1vX on a medium stam build, if you can't even 1v1 competitively? The only time you should look past 1v1 capabilities when balancing a game is when a class/build has insane AoE capabilities and is specifically built to kill multiple people in an area (in which case I can see why a somewhat lower 1v1 potency is warranted).
As for surviving on a sorc vs multiple people, you can definitely survive with 15k+ shields (and not only do they prevent crits from happening, this is a much higher value than templar/warden instant heals for example) vs quite a few people, assuming you burst some of them down quick enough to reduce the pressure. If things go south, you've always got streak to get away.
You might think shields scale "very badly" against multiple attackers, but when you compare it to Vigor it's laughable.
With 4k weapon damage & 36k stamina, my Vigor heals for less over 5 seconds (not even counting Major Defile) than a single instant cast sorc shield prevents damage (and provides more mitigation than medium armor by removing crits from the equation).
And don't tell me that dodge roll is good against multiple attackers, it is not when the vast majority of skills in game ignore it entirely.
Just for example, if you have a warden spamming birds at you and a templar jbeaming/soul assaulting you for instance, you'll melt in 2 seconds - nothing you can do about that unless you're a stamblade & your cloak miraculously works.
The game isn't balanced for 1v1 at all in any way. The combat isn't designed for 1v1 either. Thats the the 'rock foundation' at you state.
Dueling setups are completely different than 1v1 setups, 1v1 fights are completely different than 1vx or xvx fights.
Any 2 decent players will melt a magicka sorc 2v1. Its that simple, sorc shield can't handle that much pressure when people are taking most them per skill + weave.
Don't compare shields to vigor, you compare shields to dodge rolling and yes its true dodge rolling still scales against more people a lot better than shields.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
Fvh09NL✭✭✭I don't think magicka sorcs need a nerf, I never have any real trouble with them on my mDK. The only times they are too strong is when Pirate skeleton procs, so they should change the set so the major protection doesn't work on shields.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Micah_Bayer wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 500
+480 to be exact, that's what you get on Hardened Ward for 1000 magicka.
Of course, this is halved in PvP but same goes for the Vigor numbers.Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
There are top players using medium armor - when they're ganking. And that by nature means targeting squishies & less skilled/reactive players. If you want to beat (not escape from) actual good players (or even semi-decent ones), medium armor is not an option.
And magicka sorc definitely can survive on shields & CC break alone, just like heavy can survive with mitigation. Guess who can't survive & has to escape (good luck with that unless you're stamblade with Shadow Image)? Yeah, medium.
Back when this game was more balanced, you were able to stand your ground & outheal most of the incoming damage as medium armor, and what you couldn't outheal you could (had to) dodge.
These days, you can't outheal most of the incoming damage and the damage you definitely cannot outheal you can't even dodge.
It comes back to the same thing over and over.. you're only looking at 1v1 - which rarely happens in PVP. Yes sorc can survive on shields and cc break alone against a single person. But then I just had a long fight against a sorc with my stamplar. I survived with vigour/block/dodge alone (not unlocked rally yet - only lvl 35). He gave up and went away.
Its all about how these defences scale vs more attackers - and shields scale VERY badly. There's a reason I run quite a bit of well-fitted along with a bit of stam recov on my magsorc.
Well, obviously I'm looking at 1v1 first & foremost, because that's the rock foundation of combat balance.
How do you expect to 1vX on a medium stam build, if you can't even 1v1 competitively? The only time you should look past 1v1 capabilities when balancing a game is when a class/build has insane AoE capabilities and is specifically built to kill multiple people in an area (in which case I can see why a somewhat lower 1v1 potency is warranted).
As for surviving on a sorc vs multiple people, you can definitely survive with 15k+ shields (and not only do they prevent crits from happening, this is a much higher value than templar/warden instant heals for example) vs quite a few people, assuming you burst some of them down quick enough to reduce the pressure. If things go south, you've always got streak to get away.
You might think shields scale "very badly" against multiple attackers, but when you compare it to Vigor it's laughable.
With 4k weapon damage & 36k stamina, my Vigor heals for less over 5 seconds (not even counting Major Defile) than a single instant cast sorc shield prevents damage (and provides more mitigation than medium armor by removing crits from the equation).
And don't tell me that dodge roll is good against multiple attackers, it is not when the vast majority of skills in game ignore it entirely.
Just for example, if you have a warden spamming birds at you and a templar jbeaming/soul assaulting you for instance, you'll melt in 2 seconds - nothing you can do about that unless you're a stamblade & your cloak miraculously works.
The game isn't balanced for 1v1 at all in any way. The combat isn't designed for 1v1 either. Thats the the 'rock foundation' at you state.
No, it's not balanced for 1v1 (not anymore that is, it used to be) - ergo the current mess & unenjoyable PvP.
And I don't think you understood my point regarding 1v1 balance.leepalmer95 wrote: »Dueling setups are completely different than 1v1 setups, 1v1 fights are completely different than 1vx or xvx fights.
Uhm, what? Dueling=1v1, it's the same thing.
And there isn't really such a thing as "dueling build" - what is strong in 1v1 is strong in 1vX as well. What "1vX" really is, it's a series of 1v1 encounters against less talented players, with some minor distractions in the background throwing their minor damage & CCs at you. You kill one player, you move on to the next - so on and so forth.
Obviously 1vX does not occur against other good players that you can't reliably kill even in 1v1, kind of what I was alluding to earlier.leepalmer95 wrote: »Any 2 decent players will melt a magicka sorc 2v1. Its that simple, sorc shield can't handle that much pressure when people are taking most them per skill + weave.
I think you have a strange definition of melting. Will 2 decent players outdmg shield spam? Probably, eventually. But if the sorc plays defensively, it's going to take a looong time (or a really coordinated burst from the two decent players) and the sorc will have streaked to the sunset before that happens.leepalmer95 wrote: »Don't compare shields to vigor, you compare shields to dodge rolling and yes its true dodge rolling still scales against more people a lot better than shields.
Really?
Warden damage: 95% undodgeable: birds, shalks, swarm DoT 5% - dodgeable: light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)
Templar damage: 90% undodgeable: sweep/jabs, explosive charge, jbeam, spear, sun fire DoT - dodgeable: javelin, light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)
DK damage: 70% undodgeable: all DoTs, ground AoE - 40% dodgeable: whip, light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)
Sorc damage: 50% undodgeable: curse, fury, heavy attacks - 50% dodgeable: frags, light attacks, pet attacks
NB damage: 20% undodgeable: cripple DoT - 80% dodgeable: concealed weapon/surprise attack, light attacks, assassin's will, strife
Weapon Skill Lines: all spammables are dodgeable, DoTs are not.
Ultimates: all stamina ultimates are dodgeable apart from Dawnbreaker, all magicka ultimates are undodgeable apart from overload.
if your main character is one of the latter two (especially if stam build), I might understand why you think that way. When you look at the big picture however, dodge roll is borderline useless in most cases.5 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Micah_Bayer wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.
1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.
Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
If you want to know what lack of defensive mechanisms feels like, try playing a medium armor build.
Funnily enough, medium armor builds were more balanced back in 2014 when they didn't even have Vigor (zero self heals), but could actually outdamage shield spam & run opponents out of resources (especially stamina) by forcing them to roll dodge or block a lot.
+250 not 500
+480 to be exact, that's what you get on Hardened Ward for 1000 magicka.
Of course, this is halved in PvP but same goes for the Vigor numbers.Shields are balanced with 40k magicka but when sorc can have 50k magicka together with 2k recovery that is op. Just stack 2 shields and they can go safe to offensive. That can't be compared to dodgeroll. I tried 4.5k bone shield on stamp class and its successfully replacing rally heal. This was only 4.5k shield! Sorc also can wear heavy armour full impen with 9k shields with high damage and recovery. Really better tank then any stam pvp tank. Dodge roll, vigour, rally can't be compared to shields if there is enough recovery to spam it.
There's a lot here which simply doesn't work..
A 4.5k shield on a med armour build - means dodging is still your primary defence. So many attacks miss that your shield only gets touched by a fraction of them.
Sorc can wear heavy armour, full impen, and add a 9k shield - but they do NOT have high damage and recovery. Losing the light armour cost-reduction and recovery passives is a massive hit to sustain. Losing the light armour penetration and crit pamssive is a massive loss to damage. And nothing reduces the damage coming in to those shields. Heavy resists don't. That 9k shield will last only a quarter of the time that your 4.5k shield lasts on a dodge build.
I've experimented a lot with heavy-armour sorc builds before the constitution nerf - they just don't work. High resists/blocking and damage shields do not synergise - you'd be much better off taking a 9k twilight heal instead since the damage you take will be mitigated by armour first, so your effective 9k heal is stronger than a 9k shield. But that doesn't work either because the pet needs shields itself to survive.
You simply cannot get away from using a shield on a sorc - and therefore light-armour to sustain it..
1. iam a heavy armor build so dodge isnt my primary defense.
2. If u think light armor is so good then u can go with full light armor with 22k resistance on defensive bar. U need take only 1pc skeleton + new mundus resistance and uget 5700 more resistance with light armor. Its like light armor with dama resistance as heavy armor. U can go spinner with amberplasm with others 2 sets.
3. UU write that u dont want go to heavy because lost damage and recovery but what about stam classes? They dont have option taking medium armor + shields, dodgge is countered with so many skills now, thats not case with shields. Also light armor is best armor in the game 5K penetration is 2 times better then 12% weapon damage.
4. U write that 9 k heal is better then 9k shield but i can debuf heal by 50% so 4,5 k heal is far away vs 9k shield. And who the hell have 9k heal other then mag templar in specific situation. U see that the shields is overperforming?
5. Who will be attacking your pets? Its suicide when someone start attacking your pets. Wtf what u writing.
I don't get what you're arguing with here.. Why would I want to build up my resistances when the majority of the time (ie when shield is up) they are not used - its just a waste of traits/set bonuses... Now if you wanted resistances to be a primary way to mitigate damage instead of shields - you could go heavy, use defending, 1pc skeleton, then new mundus etc.... idk what your point is..?
Shielding is a PROACTIVE defence - which means it has to be up BEFORE you get attacked. This means that they are often cast but not needed, thus wasting resources and cooldowns. They are also expensive. This makes light-armour a must. You talk as if there is a choice - but there isn't. Sorcs simply have to use light armour.
btw, medium IS a viable option for stam - you just need something else - in addition to dodge to survive. There are plenty of top players using med armour on their stambalades because they have the ability to escape when needed. I'm happy with med on my stamsorc - because I have built it with the speed (and sustain from med) to be able to escape when needed. If you're just trying to facetank with med - yeah, it won't go well.
But then a magsorc cannot survive with shields alone either. You'll notice that the good ones also dodge, also use mobility/positioning and trees..
Yes, you can debuff a 9k heal but it does not mean its always debuffed. Also that 9k heal can also crit. And the damage you have to recover with that heal has also been reduced by resistances (since your wearing heavy)...
Who has a 9k heal? My magsorc has a 9k heal.. (unless you kill the pet - but who targets the pets, right?)
You also said earlier that the best damaging sets were all heavy.. you can use them in weapons/jewellery y'know - and still fit in 5 med pieces.
There are top players using medium armor - when they're ganking. And that by nature means targeting squishies & less skilled/reactive players. If you want to beat (not escape from) actual good players (or even semi-decent ones), medium armor is not an option.
And magicka sorc definitely can survive on shields & CC break alone, just like heavy can survive with mitigation. Guess who can't survive & has to escape (good luck with that unless you're stamblade with Shadow Image)? Yeah, medium.
Back when this game was more balanced, you were able to stand your ground & outheal most of the incoming damage as medium armor, and what you couldn't outheal you could (had to) dodge.
These days, you can't outheal most of the incoming damage and the damage you definitely cannot outheal you can't even dodge.
It comes back to the same thing over and over.. you're only looking at 1v1 - which rarely happens in PVP. Yes sorc can survive on shields and cc break alone against a single person. But then I just had a long fight against a sorc with my stamplar. I survived with vigour/block/dodge alone (not unlocked rally yet - only lvl 35). He gave up and went away.
Its all about how these defences scale vs more attackers - and shields scale VERY badly. There's a reason I run quite a bit of well-fitted along with a bit of stam recov on my magsorc.
you have to look at it another way as well. what if you are fighting multiple sorcs? Shields are even more op then. 1v1 they are strong and also Xv1 that's why ball groups consist of mostly mag sorcs. if you are 1vX all defensive abilities are weak not just shields.1 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@DDuke Good job duke. You put them ez mode sorcs in their place! Medium armour has been the most gutted armour skill line in the game for a long time now. Medium is complete trash right now. Shadow cloak and proc based burst have created an illusion of strength for the armour type.
I find it funny how terrible medium mitigation is compared to 1 simple shield.PS4 NA DC4 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Templar damage: 90% undodgeable: sweep/jabs, explosive charge, jbeam, spear, sun fire DoT - dodgeable: javelin, light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)
Somehow you want to assume every templar opts for the morph that doesn't stun (which most don't) and a DoT that is only placed by a slow projectile that is dodgeable, while also not counting the very skill needed to get that DoT in the first place in the dodgeable category. Also why isn't Dark Flare considered templar skill? Because it's inconvenient to your argument? You're just making a biased and selectivly picking things that suit your argument.
And Shards is crap now that it can't stun and it's such a slow ranged projectile it can be avoided entirely by dodge rolling (or simply sprinting).
Templars are also the only class without access to in-class major sorcery so that means they slot Degeneration, which also happens to be dodgeable.
Dark Flare, Vampire's Bane, Toppling Charge, Javelin are all widely used Templar skills that are dodgeable. As are all weaved attacks regardless of what staff is used or if they go two swords. So that's 4 templar skills. I'll wait for the 36 Templar attack skills that are not dodgeable for you to confirm your 90% number.
1 -
amir412✭✭✭✭✭
✭So funny reading all those Sorc's fanatic defending their class,
3k SD , 50k mag, 2.3k regen is what i run on my Altmer Sorc, and i dont even need to slot a pet for it
... very balanced compared to other class, if ure *** blind.
Its a joke and a nerf need to happen to this class - If youre thinking wrong, ur build is just bad or u got some l2p issue.
And im not even talking about next patch,
Edited by amir412 on July 26, 2017 6:38AMPC | EU | AD |Stam Dk named "-Saidden"| 1700 CP|"..A world without fire. Ashen one, is this truly thy wish?.."5 -
amir412✭✭✭✭✭
✭why should he be nerf ?- Shields have already been nerfed 3 times , i know i know that you all want to do crit damage on shields ... but we can't nerf shields again an again just because sorc addapt to nerf .... it's time to L2P guys .
- Of course the sorc is one of the best dps ... but could we talk about the DK for exemple ? this class is simply the Best tank ... but don't forgot that he can also DPS very well ... stamina or magicka . while the sorc is simply useful for " dps " .... yeah i know that every class can tank ... in dungeon ... normal trial ... but the dk tank is simply the best ! if you try to enter in a " HL roster " with a sorc tank .. you will be throw away. (ok ... a few sorc tank have completed Vmol is not an argument because a lot of templar dd - nb dd - dk dd have also completed this . ) Same think for the healplar .
who care if it has been nerfed 3 times? it doesnt matter if it has been nerfed 200 times, its the result that matter.
DK got nerfed more than 10 times, do ZOS stopping? dont think so.PC | EU | AD |Stam Dk named "-Saidden"| 1700 CP|"..A world without fire. Ashen one, is this truly thy wish?.."5 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division
Ssssssh. Don't disturb the crusade with your facts based logic
.
@GreenSoup2HoT
Them ez mode Sorcs play noCP campaigns as well. In that case you'll find out that you'll have a 5 to 11k shield (depending on choices) with around 35 to 40k Magicka. That shield costs around 3k Magicka if you don't go for a lot of cost reduction - which you don't want to do because you'll need the burst to kill something to begin with. Regen will be lower. Yes, there is Lich. And you can use the Atronach. Which again comes at the cost of lowering your burst.
There are not many Sorcs in noCP which I consider hard to kill, moreso in a 1vX situation. Those that are hard to kill are at a level of skill where the choice of the class is a matter of personal taste - they shine with every class.
If you think Sorc is an ez mode for noobs, then that's not true either. Shield spam gets you killed, quickly, but doesn't kill any attacker.
You always talk like an 11k shield is something very special. You have to take into account though that wearing light armour is practically running naked because of penetration. So in the end the only thing that's protecting from unmitigated damage is that very shield. You should play some noCP to see how fast that shield really goes down.
Medium armour could use some improvement, I'll grant that. But just because you feel squishy in your leather suit doesn't mean Sorcs are OP. If something is done about shields then adjusting Bastion is the place - though, you know, there is a CP Attribute called Shattering Blows. Somehow every other class defends itself from nerfs saying there are counters aplenty in the game already - only the overpowered Sorcs are denied to do so.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭A Nightblade does a 47k parse, whIle my mSorc that hits 40k on live can only get 36k on the pts. We did get nerfed indirectly via Ilambir, Grothdarr, mundus and trait changes that don't play into sorc strengths, and reduced uptime on concussed.
Right, but nb has inhouse access to raid buffs, sorc will outdps nb in raids. There's no need for more nerfs in this game. But to answer your question, zos plays sorcs.
0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love how @DDuke brings up valid points while the white knights keep repeating the same argument over and over "no pls I play long time class sorker"
It's because his valid points mainly consist of "medium armour is trash" and "Sorc has everything". Hard to argue beliefs.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.4 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭why should he be nerf ?- Shields have already been nerfed 3 times , i know i know that you all want to do crit damage on shields ... but we can't nerf shields again an again just because sorc addapt to nerf .... it's time to L2P guys .
- Of course the sorc is one of the best dps ... but could we talk about the DK for exemple ? this class is simply the Best tank ... but don't forgot that he can also DPS very well ... stamina or magicka . while the sorc is simply useful for " dps " .... yeah i know that every class can tank ... in dungeon ... normal trial ... but the dk tank is simply the best ! if you try to enter in a " HL roster " with a sorc tank .. you will be throw away. (ok ... a few sorc tank have completed Vmol is not an argument because a lot of templar dd - nb dd - dk dd have also completed this . ) Same think for the healplar .
who care if it has been nerfed 3 times? it doesnt matter if it has been nerfed 200 times, its the result that matter.
DK got nerfed more than 10 times, do ZOS stopping? dont think so.
That's the problem. Sorc players tend to only see nerfs while the class (or magicka in general) received massive improvements over the time. They ignore stuff like new buff food, massive destruction staff buffs, Harness/Dampen working against physical damage now, Curse got massively buffed (it's not blockable and triggers two times now lmao, sorc only recieves nerfs), Execute got buffed and we got new powercreep sets (lolpotence, roflplasm or that new bg set for example). They also ignore that other things got nerfed as well (stamina received pretty huge nerfs with Unchained, Shuffle, increased skill cost, block nerf) and I'm 90% sure that proc sets (talking about Selene mostly) will also get nerfed (which is a good thing tho). Furthermore all executes got nerfed by changing multipliers to additive instead of multiplicative (indirect nerf to minor beserc for example) which affected all executes with the exception of one execute. Imagine which execute wasn't affected
Next patch everyone gets more magicka, so shields will be stronger while proc sets get nerfed. Also Shadowrend gets overbuffed (it basically summons a Dota hero, gonna call this set Dotarend from now on) which is a magicka set and you can reach 55-60k max magicka on open world builds without slotting a pet but I guess a sorc will show up now and tell me that 55k-60k max magicka builds are fine because of the freaking oblivion glyph and because they scale not into 1vX. Guess what, you scale still better into 1vX than medium armor builds (without proc sets) because you can roll a lot with Amberplasm, vampire, tripots and resto ultimate.
I guess magicka sorc players also don't see any changes in their favour again in this patch.
And lol at people who make fun out of @DDuke because he compares balance with 1v1 scenarios. Do you want him to start comparing magicka sorc with medium armor builds in terms of AoE, survivability, group utility and CC? And 1v1 lol. Against meele builds sorc can just camp in mines and attro and against ranged builds (which are all magicka because bow sucks) you have endless sustain with Harness Magicka. It's funny how some magicka sorcs always avoid talking about 1v1 in balance comparism with the reason that 1v1 doesn't matter. But if you look at them and how they lovely expose people then 1v1 seems to matter everything to them
I leave this discussion now with two question towards the sorc community:
1. How do you justify changes in favour of sorc if proc sets get nerfed? Right now you get dominated by a good sorc without using proc sets and you get destroyed even more after the patch.
2. What would you prefer in your group: A random medium armor build or a magicka sorcerer?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.7 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?
Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.
Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.
Oh may I chime in then?
Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.
Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.
There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.
A change to damage shields:
They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.
Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll
Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.
And yet you'll still get people waltzing in here saying no stamina users are presenting evidence that mag sorcs are over tuned.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Templar damage: 90% undodgeable: sweep/jabs, explosive charge, jbeam, spear, sun fire DoT - dodgeable: javelin, light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)
Somehow you want to assume every templar opts for the morph that doesn't stun (which most don't) and a DoT that is only placed by a slow projectile that is dodgeable, while also not counting the very skill needed to get that DoT in the first place in the dodgeable category. Also why isn't Dark Flare considered templar skill? Because it's inconvenient to your argument? You're just making a biased and selectivly picking things that suit your argument.
And Shards is crap now that it can't stun and it's such a slow ranged projectile it can be avoided entirely by dodge rolling (or simply sprinting).
Templars are also the only class without access to in-class major sorcery so that means they slot Degeneration, which also happens to be dodgeable.
Dark Flare, Vampire's Bane, Toppling Charge, Javelin are all widely used Templar skills that are dodgeable. As are all weaved attacks regardless of what staff is used or if they go two swords. So that's 4 templar skills. I'll wait for the 36 Templar attack skills that are not dodgeable for you to confirm your 90% number.
Well, I was talking mainly of skills that are good and worth using, otherwise I'd have included things like Agony etc for other classes too.
I specifically wrote Sun Fire DoT on my post because I meant the DoT portion only. That's a small detail however, because you'll have that DoT on you eventually as a medium armor player, and that's when the incoming pressure reaches critical point, as you have not only the Sweeps, Soul Assaults, Jbeams & Purifying Light (another important undodgeable skill I forgot to mention) melting you in 2 seconds, but a DoT ticking as well just to make sure.
But you're right, Dark Flare is used by some templar builds (a minority though) I'll grant you that.
As for the charge morph, I don't see why anyone would want to make javelin a useless skill on their bar by using the stun morph of charge <.<
The percentages (rough estimates) refer to the incoming damage from that class, not the amount of skills available.Edited by DDuke on July 26, 2017 10:25AM1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »That's the problem. Sorc players tend to only see nerfs while the class (or magicka in general) received massive improvements over the time. They ignore stuff like new buff food, massive destruction staff buffs, Harness/Dampen working against physical damage now, Curse got massively buffed (it's not blockable and triggers two times now lmao, sorc only recieves nerfs), Execute got buffed and we got new powercreep sets (lolpotence, roflplasm or that new bg set for example). They also ignore that other things got nerfed as well (stamina received pretty huge nerfs with Unchained, Shuffle, increased skill cost, block nerf) and I'm 90% sure that proc sets (talking about Selene mostly) will also get nerfed (which is a good thing tho). Furthermore all executes got nerfed by changing multipliers to additive instead of multiplicative (indirect nerf to minor beserc for example) which affected all executes with the exception of one execute. Imagine which execute wasn't affected
Next patch everyone gets more magicka, so shields will be stronger while proc sets get nerfed. Also Shadowrend gets overbuffed (it basically summons a Dota hero, gonna call this set Dotarend from now on) which is a magicka set and you can reach 55-60k max magicka on open world builds without slotting a pet but I guess a sorc will show up now and tell me that 55k-60k max magicka builds are fine because of the freaking oblivion glyph and because they scale not into 1vX. Guess what, you scale still better into 1vX than medium armor builds (without proc sets) because you can roll a lot with Amberplasm, vampire, tripots and resto ultimate.
That's the other problem. I've highlighted the one thing in your post that applies to Sorcs. Everything else you list can apply to any magicka based character. The sets are available to anyone. They've already released stam equivalents to the foods and drinks. There is no Sorc exclusive weapon.
Magicka characters and the synergies available (sets, foods, weapons) somehow always turn into "Sorc." If you think the class needs adjustment, then stick the the class skills and passives in your argument.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS3 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Happily have Curse changed reversed, if Streak drops block again. Curse became unblockable when Streak became blockable. I could land Curse with Streak guaranteed, so that was actually a NERF to sorcs.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
As for the charge morph, I don't see why anyone would want to make javelin a useless skill on their bar by using the stun morph of charge.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean its not a viable option. It means you just discount things that are inconvenient to your argument.
Edited by Joy_Division on July 26, 2017 2:11PM3
This discussion has been closed.