Tremorscale and Selene are still overperforming

pieratsos · July 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Skoria needs to perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few second it lands and it should be dodgeable. Maybe even reflectable (after all reflect isnt a very accessible defence unless u are a DK). This is going to seperate good players from bad players. A good player is gonna time CC and other abilities to make sure it lands and get a burst. Sort of like meteor is used. A bad player wont do that and its going to be easy to counter it. This means player skill is going to be a factor on how effective the set is. Thats how all proc sets should operate.

Skoria should not be reflectable, because you have no control over who it hits. When meteor was reflectable, if you cast it on a DK with wings or a S&B user you did so at your peril. You had a choice; if it got reflected back in your face you chose poorly.

The fact that Skoria often doesn't proc on your desired target is a weakness that tones down its real damage potential. (Obviously in a 1v1 or a duel this is not the case.) But because it procs more or less randomly on people, some player coming up behind you can get the Skoria proc and reflect it on you, even if it is a player you weren't even attacking.

A telegraph for the player with an incoming proc though is more than fair and it should have one. It gives players a chance block/mistform like they would a meteor. And it's not really a nerf for the set; if you are being hard pressed, sometimes your opponent having to stop and defend for a brief moment is valuable.

Bring back double reflect. Problem fixed. That was actual player skill.

ExcaliburESO · July 2017

Considering that Skoria is MDKs Execut and DMG all together if they nerf it gonna be big nerf to DK class. And ofc if u are squishy sorc or nb vampire it hits hard but well use some *** shields.U know 25% from fire dmg is alot so remove ur vamp then. If MDK would get an execut wouldnt cry xP. Cuz skoria is only reason i can kill those RollerTrollblades and Sorcs. it just executes at the right time always.
Must be hard to play against a set that almost works as good as Endless Fury right? xD
Urs with love Daryn Dagoth!

pieratsos · July 2017

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Considering that Skoria is MDKs Execut and DMG all together if they nerf it gonna be big nerf to DK class. And ofc if u are squishy sorc or nb vampire it hits hard but well use some *** shields.U know 25% from fire dmg is alot so remove ur vamp then. If MDK would get an execut wouldnt cry xP. Cuz skoria is only reason i can kill those RollerTrollblades and Sorcs. it just executes at the right time always.
Must be hard to play against a set that almost works as good as Endless Fury right? xD
Urs with love Daryn Dagoth!

The suggested change for skoria has nothing to with nerfing its dmg so i dont really see ur point.
And ur point about DKs needing an execute because sorcs have endless fury also makes zero sense. The classes have a completely different design. Im not saying sorcs are balanced. Not by a long shot. But there is a reason DKs dont have an execute.

Vapirko · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sorry, @Joy_Division - but how can you call a free damage proc set that hits more than an ultimate, "competitive"?

What exactly is "competitive" about that? In order for that to occur - one must be in a state of competition with an adversary in regards to said proc set, right?
The only "competitive" aspect is if you can run said dungeon or not, or if you have the AP to buy when they are on sale.

You are comparing the nerf of classes to the cry for nerf for these sets? Have you considered that a lot of these nerfs came from the fact that overall combat was over-performing *because* of proc sets?

It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.
I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.

I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead

I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead

I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead

Etc, etc.

It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.

Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.

I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.

And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.

But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.

Except that you and everyone else knows that two piece sets often far outweigh using another full five piece. I'm not lobbying for a skoria nerf actually I think it's fine for the most part. But don't pretend like damage proc sets don't out perform most five piece damage sets. For example SB or dw is far more effective right now than a normal 2H build in pvp because sacrificing a 5pc option or a full monster set simply makes you far less competitive.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

So the problem is 2pc sets in general or the choice one has to make between a 12 and a 11 piece setup?

BohnT · July 2017

So after 300 posts I want to make a list with things that selene / tremorscale and skoria have going for them and which drawbacks they have:

Selene:
+
1. Very high damage even on tanks - stronger than ultimates ( numbers vary between 4-13k)
2. has a high proc chance that can proc of more than 4 sources every gcd (light attack, skill, bash, dot, poison/enchant)
3. Low cooldown only 4 sec (no ultimate is ready every 4 sec)
4. 180° Aoe - - - - > hard to avoid with walking alone
5. almost unavoidable even with only minor lags
6. Removes balacend builds because damage is still high even with full survivability investment
7. can be AC'd to hit instantly with no planable counterplay
8. Requires no player skill to kill a target even beginners who get lucky are a big threat
9. Rises normal burst rotas in one gcd from 12-16k to 17-25k ----> deadly to everyone not largely specced into health (spec in health = damage loss)
10. can even be procced with light attacks when you have no resources

-
2. Has an visual and an audio based indicator that it will proc
3. Can not be procced perfectly on purpose
4. Avoidable in 1v1 without any lags
5. Has an opportunity cost for 2 pieces (weapon damage gain of the other set has to be reduced by 90 to compensate for the 1pc of selene)
6. Requires meele combat to work
7. Can be blocked / dodged

Tremorscale
+
2. Has good aoe damage 3-5k
3. Great aoe snare for 4 seconds
4. Low Cooldown high proc chance
5. Synergises with a low cost spammable that applies major fracture and deals good damage
6. Can be applied from distance even with a skill that costs magicka
7. Gives tanky builds good burst with only 1 skill
8. Very hard to avoid because both the skills and the proc are instant
9. Good control over the proc (50% chance + only certain skills proc it)

-
1. Forces you to use 1 of 2 skills or one other set
2. Snare can be purged
3. Has opportunity cost of 2 pieces aswell
4. Damage can be blocked
5. Initial skill can theoretically be dodged

Skoria
+
1. Deals good damage and some AoE damage
2. Can not be dodged or avoided only mitigated
3. Perfectly synergises with magdk and magplar and adds strong burst to the dot pressure
4. Can be procced from distance
5. Has multiple sources which can proc it
6. No visual clue that it targets you
7. Independence of the damage from the build
8. Grants some survivability on top of the damage
9. Low cooldown

-
1. Low proc chance
2. Pure luck to hit the desired target in AoE fights
3. Audio clue for the proc
4. Requires dots to work
5. Opportunity cost of 2 pieces
6. No damage increase with the 1pc
7. Has sort of a delay when the meteor comes from the sky

Now I add one set that has a delay attached to it to this comparison
Sellistrix (after the buffs)
+
1. Good AoE damage (on par with Velidreth)
2. Aoe cc
3. Low cooldownmomentigh proc chance due to no restricted sort of damage
5. Damage is again independent of the actual stats of the wearer
6. can be applied both meele and ranged
7. Great for defences of small areas like breaches or gates

-
1. 2 sec delay (1.5 in pts)
2. opportunity cost of 2 pieces
3. visual and Audio clue for the proc
4. grants enemy cc immunity in the wrong moment
5. can be blocked & easy to avoid the aoe

My own conclusion
All the sets grant too much burst, with not much cost, and no punishing restrictions to proc them as they normally proc with exactly the same rota as before along with them being hardly avoidable without wasting lots of resources

Add a 1-1.5 second delay to all 3 sets with a visual effect to show which area or who will be affected by the proc

This is the only difference between sellistrix and the other sets and that made sellistrix balacend and brought the other sets to op country

Qbiken · July 2017

BohnT wrote: »

So after 300 posts I want to make a list with things that selene / tremorscale and skoria have going for them and which drawbacks they have:

Selene:
+
1. Very high damage even on tanks - stronger than ultimates ( numbers vary between 4-13k)
2. has a high proc chance that can proc of more than 4 sources every gcd (light attack, skill, bash, dot, poison/enchant)
3. Low cooldown only 4 sec (no ultimate is ready every 4 sec)
4. 180° Aoe - - - - > hard to avoid with walking alone
5. almost unavoidable even with only minor lags
6. Removes balacend builds because damage is still high even with full survivability investment
7. can be AC'd to hit instantly with no planable counterplay
8. Requires no player skill to kill a target even beginners who get lucky are a big threat
9. Rises normal burst rotas in one gcd from 12-16k to 17-25k ----> deadly to everyone not largely specced into health (spec in health = damage loss)
10. can even be procced with light attacks when you have no resources

-
2. Has an visual and an audio based indicator that it will proc
3. Can not be procced perfectly on purpose
4. Avoidable in 1v1 without any lags
5. Has an opportunity cost for 2 pieces (weapon damage gain of the other set has to be reduced by 90 to compensate for the 1pc of selene)
6. Requires meele combat to work
7. Can be blocked / dodged

Tremorscale
+
2. Has good aoe damage 3-5k
3. Great aoe snare for 4 seconds
4. Low Cooldown high proc chance
5. Synergises with a low cost spammable that applies major fracture and deals good damage
6. Can be applied from distance even with a skill that costs magicka
7. Gives tanky builds good burst with only 1 skill
8. Very hard to avoid because both the skills and the proc are instant
9. Good control over the proc (50% chance + only certain skills proc it)

-
1. Forces you to use 1 of 2 skills or one other set
2. Snare can be purged
3. Has opportunity cost of 2 pieces aswell
4. Damage can be blocked
5. Initial skill can theoretically be dodged

Skoria
+
1. Deals good damage and some AoE damage
2. Can not be dodged or avoided only mitigated
3. Perfectly synergises with magdk and magplar and adds strong burst to the dot pressure
4. Can be procced from distance
5. Has multiple sources which can proc it
6. No visual clue that it targets you
7. Independence of the damage from the build
8. Grants some survivability on top of the damage
9. Low cooldown

-
1. Low proc chance
2. Pure luck to hit the desired target in AoE fights
3. Audio clue for the proc
4. Requires dots to work
5. Opportunity cost of 2 pieces
6. No damage increase with the 1pc
7. Has sort of a delay when the meteor comes from the sky

Now I add one set that has a delay attached to it to this comparison
Sellistrix (after the buffs)
+
1. Good AoE damage (on par with Velidreth)
2. Aoe cc
3. Low cooldownmomentigh proc chance due to no restricted sort of damage
5. Damage is again independent of the actual stats of the wearer
6. can be applied both meele and ranged
7. Great for defences of small areas like breaches or gates

-
1. 2 sec delay (1.5 in pts)
2. opportunity cost of 2 pieces
3. visual and Audio clue for the proc
4. grants enemy cc immunity in the wrong moment
5. can be blocked & easy to avoid the aoe

My own conclusion
All the sets grant too much burst, with not much cost, and no punishing restrictions to proc them as they normally proc with exactly the same rota as before along with them being hardly avoidable without wasting lots of resources

Add a 1-1.5 second delay to all 3 sets with a visual effect to show which area or who will be affected by the proc

This is the only difference between sellistrix and the other sets and that made sellistrix balacend and brought the other sets to op country

After all posts in this long thread this might be the best one so far. Your suggestion of adding a few second(s) cooldown is probably the most realistic solution to do without killing some sets. Another suggestion that just came into mind regarding Skoria is to change how it works so it only procs from fire/flame DoTs (Since I Believe it was originally created for DK´s). There´re however issues with that as well (the set would almost exclusively be used by DK´s) but I´ll just add my suggestion to the thread.

Azurya · July 2017

Well, to be true, I don´t care, and ZOS and all complainer can do with their Monsstersets whatever they want, you can just delete them from the game, or make skins out of it which people can wear, pretending they are cool....

I play most of my builds without monstersets, my pledgetank has one, and my magblade. The magblade has skoria, which I just recently found the pieces on my bank-char, and I must say the performance of skoria is to weep about or if you are my opponent in battle, to laugh about....

I rather go with 2 5-pcs sets and some accesory, works fine.
And while someone wrote about tons of NB in PVp, that is true, and 99% of them are so bad, they think they are awesome, cauze they watched a vid from a certain guy on youtube. Made my kilquest on NB in less then 10 minutes last night, and sorcs as well. Tons of cannonfodder in cyro nowadays

akray21 · July 2017

BohnT wrote: »

So after 300 posts I want to make a list with things that selene / tremorscale and skoria have going for them and which drawbacks they have:

Selene:
+
1. Very high damage even on tanks - stronger than ultimates ( numbers vary between 4-13k)
2. has a high proc chance that can proc of more than 4 sources every gcd (light attack, skill, bash, dot, poison/enchant)
3. Low cooldown only 4 sec (no ultimate is ready every 4 sec)
4. 180° Aoe - - - - > hard to avoid with walking alone
5. almost unavoidable even with only minor lags
6. Removes balacend builds because damage is still high even with full survivability investment
7. can be AC'd to hit instantly with no planable counterplay
8. Requires no player skill to kill a target even beginners who get lucky are a big threat
9. Rises normal burst rotas in one gcd from 12-16k to 17-25k ----> deadly to everyone not largely specced into health (spec in health = damage loss)
10. can even be procced with light attacks when you have no resources

#2 and #8 are contradicting. LA, SKILL, BASH, DOT, POISON is an advanced combo that most people in cyrodiil are not doing, and probably can't even do (possibly due to the lag you mention in #5). Most people running this set probably only LA, SKILL (with the newer/casual players only doing the one SKILL). Animation cancelling all of these actions in a .9 second window is very unrealistic for your average player to successfully complete. #7 is also an advanced tactic that many don't even know is possible, and even if they did is just as difficult to do as dodge the proc.

But this brings to light my biggest gripe with how combat is designed in this game... I have always hated AC'ing as part of combat.

Great post with lot's to digest.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Thank you for the nice recital @BohnT but I can't really grasp how you come to some of your conclusion. The part with the good burst I still get but adding a delay to sets that already have a delay? Selene, Skoria, Sellistrix have them right now.

I don't think its the way to go to advice Zeni to balance everything around bad internet/ server performance. Instead they should fix their servers. Besides that elemantary difference, a balanced-around-lag-PvP will only make it easier for those who have a commonly more stable/ faster connection im comparison to those who run a high ping do to being in a bad location etc.

Also in the comparison between Sellistrix and Skoria how comes that Skoria is found OP? Bc of the higher ST dmg and the undodgability? Skoria is still blockable and your con #2 (who it will hit) is already a great cut in it's burst potential. A free CC, lower cooldown, higher proc chance on ANY damage skill are boons you rightfully mentioned but it's rather obvious that these sets were designed with totally different obejctives in mind, so I find it problematic to just compare numbers and say "this and that is overperforming". Although I think an additional visual indicator for Skoria could be a good thing as of right now not even the proccer knows who it will hit.

Plus, right now so many skills/ attacks are undodgeable and every thread that complains about this is full of...reason...why it's a good thing to have e.g. a low cost, good dmg undodgeable class spam or a stamina devouring low cost, high dmg undodgeable, unbreakable ultimate. So I don't think the devs see a problem in an undodgeble low proc-chance reward set. Seems like Zeni likes their hard counters.

To not get me wrong: I don't take a stance here pro or against proc sets, I just want to add my pov and ask a few questions we should consider when talking about these sets specifically or in general.

What is the idea behind monster set? Weren't they designed as a reward for clearing the difficult dungeons? To be so they have to stand out. Through being a 1/2 piece boni and by granting something special. I for one wouldn't see a monster set that gives me common things like crit on 1st and resources on 2nd. Besides chudan and slimecraw each and every monster set is a proc set. Will it be the right way to nerf some of these sets to a point where it's far better at most times to slot something else or even impossible to use for a huge chunk of the playerbase (like in @Qbiken suggestion with the further restriction of DoTs).

What about the opportunity costs? Sure, a 12/12 piece build will not have any of this but someone who even runs an 11 piece setup on backbar (dw+bow) or even more on both bars (2h + bow) has the cost of not (constantly) having access to 5/5/2 boni. Yet I consider this a bit of an afterthought since you can run several proc sets like lich and CA on backbar only.

Does it make sense to consider a damage proc always as better than a defensive proc? It's easier to kill someone with a selene/ skoria/ velidreth proc than without, right, but these sets don't do *** to defend you. There is a reason so many people run pirate skeleton and troll king instead of a damage set. While people tend to say "You can go full tank + selene and do great dmg" what about the other way around? You can specc full dmg and still have great resource management via Lich or great survivability via Troll King/ Pirates.

Are the nerf cries misguided by death recaps? So many sets grant extreme additional damage (CA, Ravager, 7th Legion, etc.) but will never appear on a death recap and therefore aren't in the crossfire?A proc of +650 wpn dmg is also "free dmg". So many sets grant extreme survivability/ resource management but don't do damage, leading to not being able to finish a fight before your resources run out and the fight is turned (Pirate Skeleton, Lich, Troll King).

Edit: I just compared proc sets but what I forgot was the comparison to non-procs. Are +400 dmg to everything physical, 100% uptime, not also free damage? Don't grant amberplasm great survivability through easy resource management? Non of these things will ever be seen on the blue death screen.

Is the view on proc sets befogged by the possibility to stack unavoidable instant damage sets (viper, red mountain, widow maker) on top of monster sets or each other? Although still be able to stack proc sets, the worst offenders are changed to either be a burst no more or to having a delay.

And finally, even if combined in the "right" way some procs sets used to/ will still be an annoying overkill on pure builds, is it possible that these sets opened up a variety of builds? Going away from a pure tank with no possibilty to be a threat to a high resistance tank with some damage? Or going from glass cannon to high damage with okay defense? Or a DoT build that needs some burst?
Is it possible that these sets can make some builds totally OP when build for one thing AND that these sets also can make some other builds more well rounded?

Therefore, again, is it the past experience of OP proc sets stacked for damage that makes people running wild for nerfing every single proc sets till they are useless until you stack them?

I think there is more to consider than burst potential alone on how "OP" sets are.

Xsorus · July 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Bosov wrote: »

Tremor is ridiculous... if you go full heavy armor and a sword and shield you should be a tank and not be able to do decent burst damage 50% of the time you use ransack.

There is people who shieldcharge in and spam ransack.. it actually works since okayish damage and that obnoxious snare comes with it.

Tremors isn't burst damage, you're talking about a proc that's going to hit for 2.5k to 3k damage.

It was only powerful when you combined it with multiple proc sets like viper or red mountain. Both of those took a hit this patch.

Tremors eating a damage nerf is just going to result in stormfist or sellatrix being used with heroic slash.

There was a time when people had to choose between ransack and heroic. snare and more dmg vs cheaper and less dmg. Since tremor was introduced the choice is a no brainer. You get more dmg and a better snare than heroic (as if heroic snare wasnt broken already). Tremor needs its snare completely removed for starters and then maybe its proc chance may have to be addressed or give it a delay to create more counterplay. Its burst may not be like selene's but combined with la ransack bash its still a lot of burst from a tank that takes very little dmg. The whole point of tanks is to outlast people in long fights not bursting them down.

It depends on if you actually run Tremors though, Heroic has minor maim attached to it, a pretty good snare, does more damage, and gives Ult.

Tremors eats a nerf you can guess which one is going to be used more, its going to be Heroic.

akray21 · July 2017

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

akray21 wrote: »

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

roll dodge isnt 100% value considering all the undodgeable stuff. your guarenteed 100% shield value unless not attacked.

akray21 · July 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

roll dodge isnt 100% value considering all the undodgeable stuff. your guarenteed 100% shield value unless not attacked.

Exactly. Stam has dodging, magicka has shielding, shielding is better.

pieratsos · July 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Bosov wrote: »

Tremor is ridiculous... if you go full heavy armor and a sword and shield you should be a tank and not be able to do decent burst damage 50% of the time you use ransack.

There is people who shieldcharge in and spam ransack.. it actually works since okayish damage and that obnoxious snare comes with it.

Tremors isn't burst damage, you're talking about a proc that's going to hit for 2.5k to 3k damage.

It was only powerful when you combined it with multiple proc sets like viper or red mountain. Both of those took a hit this patch.

Tremors eating a damage nerf is just going to result in stormfist or sellatrix being used with heroic slash.

There was a time when people had to choose between ransack and heroic. snare and more dmg vs cheaper and less dmg. Since tremor was introduced the choice is a no brainer. You get more dmg and a better snare than heroic (as if heroic snare wasnt broken already). Tremor needs its snare completely removed for starters and then maybe its proc chance may have to be addressed or give it a delay to create more counterplay. Its burst may not be like selene's but combined with la ransack bash its still a lot of burst from a tank that takes very little dmg. The whole point of tanks is to outlast people in long fights not bursting them down.

It depends on if you actually run Tremors though, Heroic has minor maim attached to it, a pretty good snare, does more damage, and gives Ult.

Tremors eats a nerf you can guess which one is going to be used more, its going to be Heroic.

But it costs a lot more and spamming it isnt so easy. Thats the point. It should be a choice between the one or the other with both of them having pros and cons. Like it used to be before tremor. Right now there is just literally no point in running heroic. No one is using it anymore. Tremor cant stay like this. Its design is just absolutely horrible.

pieratsos · July 2017

akray21 wrote: »

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

I know its hard for you to understand but some of us still want skill in the game and not dumbed down to the point where PVP becomes trash. Since procs became a thing PVP has never seen a bright day and some of you still live in an imaginary world where procs are balanced and ur only stupid argument is "there are other things broken too so procs are balanced".

Its really getting kinda funny tho. "Selene is easily dodgeable", "I dont get kills with selene", "I never die to selene", "You sacrifice a lot for selene". And yet everybody runs selene. Either you are all gimping urselves for some weird reason or you are just full of sh*t. But judging by the fact that 90% of stam build run selene its not really hard to guess which one it is.

Xsorus · July 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Bosov wrote: »

Tremor is ridiculous... if you go full heavy armor and a sword and shield you should be a tank and not be able to do decent burst damage 50% of the time you use ransack.

There is people who shieldcharge in and spam ransack.. it actually works since okayish damage and that obnoxious snare comes with it.

Tremors isn't burst damage, you're talking about a proc that's going to hit for 2.5k to 3k damage.

It was only powerful when you combined it with multiple proc sets like viper or red mountain. Both of those took a hit this patch.

Tremors eating a damage nerf is just going to result in stormfist or sellatrix being used with heroic slash.

There was a time when people had to choose between ransack and heroic. snare and more dmg vs cheaper and less dmg. Since tremor was introduced the choice is a no brainer. You get more dmg and a better snare than heroic (as if heroic snare wasnt broken already). Tremor needs its snare completely removed for starters and then maybe its proc chance may have to be addressed or give it a delay to create more counterplay. Its burst may not be like selene's but combined with la ransack bash its still a lot of burst from a tank that takes very little dmg. The whole point of tanks is to outlast people in long fights not bursting them down.

It depends on if you actually run Tremors though, Heroic has minor maim attached to it, a pretty good snare, does more damage, and gives Ult.

Tremors eats a nerf you can guess which one is going to be used more, its going to be Heroic.

But it costs a lot more and spamming it isnt so easy. Thats the point. It should be a choice between the one or the other with both of them having pros and cons. Like it used to be before tremor. Right now there is just literally no point in running heroic. No one is using it anymore. Tremor cant stay like this. Its design is just absolutely horrible.

Only Stam Sorcs right now run it

Stamina Templars will not run it, and Stamina Nightblades will not run it (Surprise + Selenes better)

Stamina Dk's are going to run Heroic and Bloodspawn over Puncture and Tremors as Heroics/Bloodspawn is going to drastically increase not only your survivability but increase your resource gain.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Tanks should be allowed to do damage, last we end up with a game like wow where tanks have no purpose.

Wait, tanks have a purpose?

Xsorus · July 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Tanks should be allowed to do damage, last we end up with a game like wow where tanks have no purpose.

Wait, tanks have a purpose?

They play a part in small scale, and in large scale somewhat.

Remove their damage and you pretty much will remove the purpose during small scale engagements where damage they do plays more of a part then large scale where you have a bunch of other lemmings to make up for it.

Valencer · July 2017

Maybe you should spec for damage if you want to do actual damage.

This is the logic I don't understand. Why should you be able to crutch on a 2-piece set bonus to do actual damage? Just invest in some weapon damage and max stamina and do it the normal way. This "tank lives matter" nonsense is no real justifications for stupid proc sets.

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

I know its hard for you to understand but some of us still want skill in the game and not dumbed down to the point where PVP becomes trash. Since procs became a thing PVP has never seen a bright day and some of you still live in an imaginary world where procs are balanced and ur only stupid argument is "there are other things broken too so procs are balanced".

Its really getting kinda funny tho. "Selene is easily dodgeable", "I dont get kills with selene", "I never die to selene", "You sacrifice a lot for selene". And yet everybody runs selene. Either you are all gimping urselves for some weird reason or you are just full of sh*t. But judging by the fact that 90% of stam build run selene its not really hard to guess which one it is.

Yeah, sacrificing 2 armour pieces for a second ultimate you can fire every 4 seconds is a lot of sacrifice. :^)

But this is the reality - if they add some actual reliable counterplay to the set everyone will stop using it in PvP. Kind of like velidreth next update.

pieratsos · July 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Bosov wrote: »

Tremor is ridiculous... if you go full heavy armor and a sword and shield you should be a tank and not be able to do decent burst damage 50% of the time you use ransack.

There is people who shieldcharge in and spam ransack.. it actually works since okayish damage and that obnoxious snare comes with it.

Tremors isn't burst damage, you're talking about a proc that's going to hit for 2.5k to 3k damage.

It was only powerful when you combined it with multiple proc sets like viper or red mountain. Both of those took a hit this patch.

Tremors eating a damage nerf is just going to result in stormfist or sellatrix being used with heroic slash.

There was a time when people had to choose between ransack and heroic. snare and more dmg vs cheaper and less dmg. Since tremor was introduced the choice is a no brainer. You get more dmg and a better snare than heroic (as if heroic snare wasnt broken already). Tremor needs its snare completely removed for starters and then maybe its proc chance may have to be addressed or give it a delay to create more counterplay. Its burst may not be like selene's but combined with la ransack bash its still a lot of burst from a tank that takes very little dmg. The whole point of tanks is to outlast people in long fights not bursting them down.

It depends on if you actually run Tremors though, Heroic has minor maim attached to it, a pretty good snare, does more damage, and gives Ult.

Tremors eats a nerf you can guess which one is going to be used more, its going to be Heroic.

But it costs a lot more and spamming it isnt so easy. Thats the point. It should be a choice between the one or the other with both of them having pros and cons. Like it used to be before tremor. Right now there is just literally no point in running heroic. No one is using it anymore. Tremor cant stay like this. Its design is just absolutely horrible.

Only Stam Sorcs right now run it

Stamina Templars will not run it, and Stamina Nightblades will not run it (Surprise + Selenes better)

Stamina Dk's are going to run Heroic and Bloodspawn over Puncture and Tremors as Heroics/Bloodspawn is going to drastically increase not only your survivability but increase your resource gain.

Heroic slash is a very rare sight these days. Almost every single stam snb build no matter what class it is runs tremor. The only reason to drop tremor is for bloodspawn on a DK cause it synergizes very good and its another OP set. And even then people still go with tremor. There is just no reason to go with heroic. Its not easy to sustain it and it just doesnt offer enough compared to ransack tremor. And tremor itself has a horrible design. No counterplay, guaranteed big dmg by using prob the cheapest spammable in the game, strongest snare in the game with prety much 100% uptime and allows u to be very tanky as well. It needs a complete rework.

Feanor · July 2017

I must have missed shields giving root immmunity for a brief moment next patch (or is it this patch already). But then there are not that many roots in the game thankfully, along with the snares.

akray21 · July 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

I know its hard for you to understand but some of us still want skill in the game and not dumbed down to the point where PVP becomes trash. Since procs became a thing PVP has never seen a bright day and some of you still live in an imaginary world where procs are balanced and ur only stupid argument is "there are other things broken too so procs are balanced".

Its really getting kinda funny tho. "Selene is easily dodgeable", "I dont get kills with selene", "I never die to selene", "You sacrifice a lot for selene". And yet everybody runs selene. Either you are all gimping urselves for some weird reason or you are just full of sh*t. But judging by the fact that 90% of stam build run selene its not really hard to guess which one it is.

People arguing 100% against damage proc sets are wasting your breath. ZOS has clearly stated that they are here to stay, so you can get over yourself thinking you have all this skill. The following is a quote from recent patch notes...

"While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them."

So yeah... These sets are meant to be powerful. And stop pulling statistics out of your ass like they are fact, it makes your posts weightless.

Vetixio · July 2017

I whispered this procblade 'nice proc sets' after they killed me then they were like 'nice health bar' then I said 'are you really tryna compare a health bar to free damage' then they didn't reply after that I think they realised they're a person who clutches on Selene's and Viper to win cause their skill damage was hella low

Vetixio · July 2017

So glad all the stupid proc sets are getting nerfed next patch so many players will actually have to use skills gonna be so hard for some of them! IMO proc sets should be removed entirely and reworked to become unique 2/5 piece bonuses e.g Velidreth increases disease damage done by 20%, Red Mountain increases fire resistance by 15%, Viper increases duration of poison skill effects by 2 seconds, Skoria increases duration of fire skill effects by 2 seconds, Selene's increases melee damage done by 10%, Storm Fist increases shock resistance by 15% rather than them all being free damage just some ideas

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

Vetixio wrote: »

I whispered this procblade 'nice proc sets' after they killed me then they were like 'nice health bar' then I said 'are you really tryna compare a health bar to free damage' then they didn't reply after that I think they realised they're a scrub who clutches on Selene's and Viper to win cause their skill damage was hella low

anyone who whispers someone in pvp and uses terminology like scrub is not any better then the users of proc sets imho.

pieratsos · July 2017

akray21 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I think that part of the issue here is magicka mains are arguing that they can't dodge these procs. Dodging is simply trading stamina for health... so magicka builds can shield the proc, trading magicka for health and thus accomplishing the same thing.

I know its hard for you to understand but some of us still want skill in the game and not dumbed down to the point where PVP becomes trash. Since procs became a thing PVP has never seen a bright day and some of you still live in an imaginary world where procs are balanced and ur only stupid argument is "there are other things broken too so procs are balanced".

Its really getting kinda funny tho. "Selene is easily dodgeable", "I dont get kills with selene", "I never die to selene", "You sacrifice a lot for selene". And yet everybody runs selene. Either you are all gimping urselves for some weird reason or you are just full of sh*t. But judging by the fact that 90% of stam build run selene its not really hard to guess which one it is.

People arguing 100% against damage proc sets are wasting your breath. ZOS has clearly stated that they are here to stay, so you can get over yourself thinking you have all this skill. The following is a quote from recent patch notes...

"While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them."

So yeah... These sets are meant to be powerful. And stop pulling statistics out of your ass like they are fact, it makes your posts weightless.

So yeah. They are suppose to have counterplay. So get off ur high horse claiming selene is balanced. You are full of sh*t and you are not fooling anyone with all ur stupid arguments. Give them actual counterplay where player skill actually matters to get their usefulness and its all fine. But i guess there are too many potatoes afraid of losing their crutches. Maybe you are one of them.

paulsimonps · July 2017

.

Vetixio wrote: »

I whispered this procblade 'nice proc sets' after they killed me then they were like 'nice health bar' then I said 'are you really tryna compare a health bar to free damage' then they didn't reply after that I think they realised they're a scrub who clutches on Selene's and Viper to win cause their skill damage was hella low

Waffennacht · July 2017

What y'all think of the new sets?

Max mag and Max Stam 1 piece

8k moving DMG

200 wpn/spell DMG

I can't remember more

akray21 · July 2017

There is a delay, they just need to remove the ability to animation cancel the bear. You should use dodge. That's how I avoid Selene's... Dodge is defaulted to double tapping a direction key, but you can bind it to its own key as well.