Tremorscale and Selene are still overperforming

ManDraKE · July 2017

you gotta love the magicka players crying about every single stam proc set, but skoria no, skoria is fine don't touch it! lol

leepalmer95 · July 2017

ManDraKE wrote: »

you gotta love the magicka players crying about every single stam proc set, but skoria no, skoria is fine don't touch it! lol

No skoria is broke af as well.

Many people have mentioned it being OP

Qbiken · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

you gotta love the magicka players crying about every single stam proc set, but skoria no, skoria is fine don't touch it! lol

No skoria is broke af as well.

Many people have mentioned it being OP

My problem is that a few patches ago people were very happy when skoria finally got a buff, but now when procsets are being strong in Battlegrounds and no-CP campaigns people want skoria nerfed??? I understand stuff get rebalanced once in a while but skoria is a great PvE set as well and reducing the damage too much will make it fall even more behind grothdarr. Only reason you were Skoria at the moment (at least I do) is because of the extra HP bonus from the 1-piece (since the extra surviveability is nice to have in some trials/dungeons). I sacrifice damage potential by using skoria instead of grothdarr (on my magdk and magplar). In order for skoria to be effectiv you need to have a lot of DoT´s up (unless RNG bless you all the time), one single DoT or even two are rarely enough in my opinion. In a 1v1 situation Skoria is really strong, that I can agree upon. What makes Skoria "balanced" in my opinion is that you can´t choose who the Skoria-meteor shall hit (talking about 1vX situations). Sure there´s an AoE component in Skoria as well but that damage isn´t that huge to be honest.

@leepalmer95 What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

If Skoria is being used to add burst to Dot users, in order to "give them a chance to kill" (skoria users kill people easily and steadily...)
then the proc chance should be reduced.

WHEN it procs, go for the kill...

Currently it procs all the time, giving strong dmg for tanky Dot users that are hard to kill, but they kill easily.

Once again, since you want to use it for burst NERF THE PROC RATE.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · July 2017

SirDopey wrote: »

Are you able to say whether you guys have the means of seeing whose feedback is from someone that has actually been on the PTS to test these sets based on the patch iteration on the PTS?

I only say this because there is a portion of the community that will say whatever is necessary to get certain sets nerfed to oblivion because they directly counter their own builds.....

We do, and we get logs of PTS feedback that's submitted in-game daily. We also have in-game logs that show us what sets players are using on PTS, what types of content they're doing, their builds, skill usage with the sets, how everything is performing, etc.

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Are you able to say whether you guys have the means of seeing whose feedback is from someone that has actually been on the PTS to test these sets based on the patch iteration on the PTS?

I only say this because there is a portion of the community that will say whatever is necessary to get certain sets nerfed to oblivion because they directly counter their own builds.....

We do, and we get logs of PTS feedback that's submitted in-game daily. We also have in-game logs that show us what sets players are using on PTS, what types of content they're doing, their builds, skill usage with the sets, how everything is performing, etc.

Every build is different from one another. This is what ESO is known for, people play as they like.
If in your logs you notice features that appear to be used by all those different playstyles, that might be a sign that the said feature is overperforming.

Evasion and it's morphs for example, appears in 90% of builds. Stamina or magika. Heavy, medium, light armor.
In order to keep promoting diversity, such features need to be toned down in order to complement not all builds, but a smaller segment.
I believe that your logs will show that.

Qbiken · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Are you able to say whether you guys have the means of seeing whose feedback is from someone that has actually been on the PTS to test these sets based on the patch iteration on the PTS?

I only say this because there is a portion of the community that will say whatever is necessary to get certain sets nerfed to oblivion because they directly counter their own builds.....

We do, and we get logs of PTS feedback that's submitted in-game daily. We also have in-game logs that show us what sets players are using on PTS, what types of content they're doing, their builds, skill usage with the sets, how everything is performing, etc.

Every build is different from one another. This is what ESO is known for, people play as they like.
If in your logs you notice features that appear to be used by all those different playstyles, that might be a sign that the said feature is overperforming.

Evasion and it's morphs for example, appears in 90% of builds. Stamina or magika. Heavy, medium, light armor.
In order to keep promoting diversity, such features need to be toned down in order to complement not all builds, but a smaller segment.
I believe that your logs will show that.

When will you learn that there are more sources of Major Evasion than Shuffle/Elude??

Major Evasion:
Medium Armor Ability: Evasion+Morphs
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Blur+Morphs
Armor Set: Hist Bark (Crafted)
Armor Set: Spectre's Eye (Crafted)
Armor Set: Gossamer (Loot)

Minor Evasion:
Warden Animal Companions Ability: Deceptive Predator (Morph of Falcon's Swiftness)

And could you back up that 90% of all builds use the Evasion+morphs in PvP?? Evidence? I´ve also seen your suggestions that evasion should be an "nightblade" skill only. Can you explain how that creates divirsity that only one class should have access to a buff (Major evasion) in the game??

Grumble_and_Grunt · July 2017

blur wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Both Selene and Tremorscale need to be brought in line with the recent changes to proc sets. They both grant hard or unavoidable damage.

Add a 1 second delay to both sets with a clear visual indicator where they will proc.

Additionally reduce selenes damage by 15%.
It has a tooltip of 15k+ more than: Wrecking blow, snipe and the initial hit of dawnbreaker.
This is too much for a free hit with now cost that can occur every 4 seconds.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

This is simply not true.
Selenes is NOT unavoidable. This player is either really bad at PvP or simply doesn't PvP at all. You put a giant telegraph on just about everything this patch. Selene's is very easy to avoid now when paying attention. It's a giant red cone, kind of hard to miss it...

Please stop dumbing down PvP. You already have Shuffle, hands down the biggest crutch in the game. Moreover you allow addons like Miats... please stop dumbing down pvp.

Bolded the problem you are over sighting with your argument about it being so easy to avoid, never mind the synergy with stealth stuns and what not.

Either way I am all for keeping as many competitive sets as possible, but Selene does too much damage lol. Anyone arguing against that regardless how easy you believe it is to counter it still does too much dmg and procs too often. One or the other has to be amended at least.

akray21 · July 2017

How to kill an MMO...

Step 1: Make a very long and tedious gear grind.
Step 2: Introduce powerful sets that people must spend countless hours grinding for to be relevant.
Step 3: Listen to the cries of plebs and nerf powerful sets into the ground that people spent countless hours grinding for.
Step 4: People leave your game because they have spent so much wasted time on grinding sets that were once powerful, but due to plebs cries are now usless.

Seems to be working...

Fix the gear acquisition process and people won't be as upset about nerfs.

Joy_Division · July 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sorry, @Joy_Division - but how can you call a free damage proc set that hits more than an ultimate, "competitive"?

What exactly is "competitive" about that? In order for that to occur - one must be in a state of competition with an adversary in regards to said proc set, right?
The only "competitive" aspect is if you can run said dungeon or not, or if you have the AP to buy when they are on sale.

You are comparing the nerf of classes to the cry for nerf for these sets? Have you considered that a lot of these nerfs came from the fact that overall combat was over-performing *because* of proc sets?

It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.

I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.
I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead
I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead
I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead

Etc, etc.

It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.

Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.

I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.

And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.

But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.

akray21 · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sorry, @Joy_Division - but how can you call a free damage proc set that hits more than an ultimate, "competitive"?

What exactly is "competitive" about that? In order for that to occur - one must be in a state of competition with an adversary in regards to said proc set, right?
The only "competitive" aspect is if you can run said dungeon or not, or if you have the AP to buy when they are on sale.

You are comparing the nerf of classes to the cry for nerf for these sets? Have you considered that a lot of these nerfs came from the fact that overall combat was over-performing *because* of proc sets?

It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.
I could have 350+ magicka regen instead.

I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead

I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses instead

I could have 150+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead

Etc, etc.

It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.

Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. You aren't trying to measure its value, you are just trying to depict it an unacceptably bad.

I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because what you and others are doing: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.

And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.

But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are only interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. Go ahead and get Skoria nerfed and make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.

Spot on! Few are smart enough to even understand the concept of opportunity cost, let alone apply it to this game.

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Opportunity cost? It procs all the time.

Nerf the proc rate.

SodanTok · July 2017

Lets not completely kill Skoria for any nonMagicka nonTemplar nonDK build because it greatly outperforms on them.
You can increase proc chance while increasing cooldown. That would be bigger nerf for build that proc it on CD than other less DoT heavy.

Obviously then you can add/remove some other perks too like making the warning cue more obvious. Slightly tone down the damage. Do whatever with the AoE.

Feanor · July 2017

Well, but the notion that proc sets are so widespread does tell you that the opportunity cost isn't really there because the procs give more power than the other alternatives. If you are after burst - and most of PvP is about burst - the other alternatives are not what you seek anyway.

"Free" damage always meant to me something different - that it's damage that doesn't cost resources but is simply there as soon as you equip the set. The things @Joy_Division listed as opportunity cost at least require some semblance of using your skills in a sensible manner. With procs you can win just because you got lucky.

akray21 · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Well, but the notion that proc sets are so widespread does tell you that the opportunity cost isn't really there because the procs give more power than the other alternatives. If you are after burst - and most of PvP is about burst - the other alternatives are not what you seek anyway.

"Free" damage always meant to me something different - that it's damage that doesn't cost resources but is simply there as soon as you equip the set. The things @Joy_Division listed as opportunity cost at least require some semblance of using your skills in a sensible manner. With procs you can win just because you got lucky.

Or you can lose because you got unlucky...

I hope everyone will enjoy a world where NBs can easily heal to full health with a couple cloaks because they have far more weapon damage and/or crit without having to use procs.

OdinForge · July 2017

I never understand how people can say selene over-performs, it rarely hits me in PvP. I can understand why people would dislike skoria as you cannot dodge it, but you can very easily move out of selene. It's only good when your target is CC'd and cannot move either due to a bug or they're out of stamina.

olsborg · July 2017

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We wanted to let you know that we have read your feedback about the Selene and Tremorscale item sets. We are still evaluating item sets on the PTS, including these two, so please continue to share your testing experiences with them.

Yea like others have said, the snare for tremorscale is the main problem, the cooldown is too short. For selene its simply the dmg thats the problem, yea its easy to avoid most of the time for stamina users, but it proccs on hardcc like incap and dawnbreaker too and that is a guaranteed hit. Also magicka builds cant dodge it as easily. Tone down the dmg pls.

pieratsos · July 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??

You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.

Joy_Division · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Well, but the notion that proc sets are so widespread does tell you that the opportunity cost isn't really there because the procs give more power than the other alternatives. If you are after burst - and most of PvP is about burst - the other alternatives are not what you seek anyway.

"Free" damage always meant to me something different - that it's damage that doesn't cost resources but is simply there as soon as you equip the set. The things @Joy_Division listed as opportunity cost at least require some semblance of using your skills in a sensible manner. With procs you can win just because you got lucky.

OK, that's a better argument.

But if burst is most of what PvP is about and what we seek from proc sets, does that not suggest that the bigger problem is that burst damage is far too important and biased in PvP? Also, if what we are after is burst, then the gear, skill, ultimate options have to tailor to that in order to be viable, desirable, and used. In this distorted meta we play in, there is a line, a threshold, an amount of burst damage Skoria has to have, for it to be a viable option. If you and others are just so put off by "free damage" and get rid of it, then you are enabling very powerful and cheap defensive tools such as the Resto ultimate, high (and burst) healing (capacity), perma-blocking, etc. to be even stronger than they already are (which is already too strong, which is why we need burst). No nerf happens in a vacuum.

All monster sets give player "free" stuff according to your perspective. Chokethron gives free healing. Bloodspawn gives free ultimate and resistance. The upcoming Earthgorge set gives free Negate-type power+healing. And this concept extends to "regular" gear that are not demonized as "proc" sets. I wear Black Rose or Desert Rose, I get free resources. I wear 7th Legion or Fury, I get free weapon damage. I wear Reactive, I get free damage reduction. I wear Storm Knight, I get free damage.

All of this is free or lucky or RNG based.

Either the game has "free" direct damage from procs or it does not. If it does, then the value of that "free" damage needs to be good enough for people to actually want to use them, otherwise they are just traps, decon trash, and polluting the loot table.

And if they are removed, then more tools need to be put in the game that require some semblance of skills such that duels don't last 15 minutes and we don't go through another "meta" where the primary complain was unkillable players in Cyrodiil

Qbiken · July 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??

You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.

All are suggestions that I can stand behind

It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.

akray21 · July 2017

For those suggesting a damage nerf to Selene's... What do you think seems fair? The set is already niche as it requires melee damage, a cc'd or OOS target, has a very blatant telegraph that allows anyone that is not OOS to easily dodge, and requires a lucky proc at 15% while you are mid combo.

NBrookus · July 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??

You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.

All are suggestions that I can stand behind

It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.

Only if meteor is also reflectable, as are other projectile-type procs. It would not be reasonable for this one proc set to have a counter like that.

A telegraph on the ground should absolutely be added.

BohnT · July 2017

akray21 wrote: »

For those suggesting a damage nerf to Selene's... What do you think seems fair? The set is already niche as it requires melee damage, a cc'd or OOS target, has a very blatant telegraph that allows anyone that is not OOS to easily dodge, and requires a lucky proc at 15% while you are mid combo.

niche ? you gotta be trolling almost every stamspec is meele and 80% of the stam specs in cyro use it.
the 15% proc is a 45%-60% (LA, Skill, Bash, enchant, PI dot) proc if you know how to play, and you can even AC the Animation to hit instantly

as i said apply a 1 sec delay to the damage and reduce the damage by 10%

akray21 · July 2017

BohnT wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

For those suggesting a damage nerf to Selene's... What do you think seems fair? The set is already niche as it requires melee damage, a cc'd or OOS target, has a very blatant telegraph that allows anyone that is not OOS to easily dodge, and requires a lucky proc at 15% while you are mid combo.

niche ? you gotta be trolling almost every stamspec is meele and 80% of the stam specs in cyro use it.
the 15% proc is a 45%-60% (LA, Skill, Bash, enchant, PI dot) proc if you know how to play, and you can even AC the Animation to hit instantly

as i said apply a 1 sec delay to the damage and reduce the damage by 10%

Oh man... A one second delay would make it unusable. Selene's already usually procs at the location I was a second or more ago because it's buggy, and lag is a thing. Also the orientation of the AoE is never exactly where I think it should be unless I'm standing still, which spells death in PvP. I think the issue here is bugs/lag, not an over preforming set.

And it's still 15% chance to proc per melee attack. By that logic Bloodspawn is a 24% chance to proc because you can take damage every .25 seconds.

Vetixio · July 2017

I honestly think they should remove all the proc sets stamina and magicka and rework them into providing unique 5 piece bonuses e.g Velidreth increases disease damage done by 20%, Red Mountain increases fire resistance by 15% rather than them all being free damage. I don't know just my opinion

Ishammael · July 2017

Derra wrote: »

The set that makes magica overperform is necropotence and that one gets buffed and easier to incorporate into a build.

Necro is basically the best set in the game.
Nothing really comes close to it -- Trainee did, pre-nerf.

SanTii.92 · July 2017

How do you measure skoria, selene's and tremor overperforming yet blood spawn, troll king, pirate skeleton or even malubeth aren't? Honestly curious, what's your parameter.

ManDraKE · July 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

How do you measure skoria, selene's and tremor overperforming yet blood spawn, troll king, pirate skeleton or even malubeth aren't? Honestly curious, what's your parameter.

Balance is dictated by death recaps, if the set dosn't show up there, then is balanced

akray21 · July 2017

ManDraKE wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

How do you measure skoria, selene's and tremor overperforming yet blood spawn, troll king, pirate skeleton or even malubeth aren't? Honestly curious, what's your parameter.

Balance is dictated by death recaps, if the set dosn't show up there, then is balanced

You kid, but it's the reality. LMAO

Lore_lai · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.
I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.

I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead

I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead

I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead

Etc, etc.

It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.

Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.

I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.

And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.

But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.

It is free because its damage comes along for free with your main damage source that actually cost resource.
All this talk of opportunity cost - if you (general "you") are sacrificing so much, per your list, wearing these sets as opposed to others - then why not run those other sets?
Please don't tell me it's because you want to be the underdog and "play hard mode" by using proc sets because they make you sacrifice so much.

As for your ultimate comment - it doesn't matter - an ultimate is an ultimate - it's supposed to be the pinnacle right? A proc set should not do more damage than any ultimate, regardless of cost, period. (IMO)

Third - monster sets allow even the most badly specc'd, no damage build to do ridiculous amounts of damage because they do not scale on stats, only CP and I think Berserk buff. That in itself is simply horrible design.