Tremorscale and Selene are still overperforming

leepalmer95 · July 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

....and Lich isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich.

amber is worse than lich.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

....and Lich isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich.

amber is worse than lich.

actually just edited my comment and mentioned that as well. re-read it

SirDopey · July 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@leepalmer95 ....and Lich or amber plasm isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich/amber plasm carrying sorcs.

how about we balance sorcs instead of just throwing out an anti-shield set like shield breaker. the second someone slots shield breaker they get hate mail for killing shield users when thats the tools they were given.

your an awesome forum poster and i like a lot of your suggestions but your pretty biased towards some aspects of this games balance. not disregarding how overpowered seleane is but there are sustain sets that are obviously over-performing aswell.

Agree wholeheartedly with everything said here

leepalmer95 · July 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

....and Lich isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich.

amber is worse than lich.

actually just edited my comment and mentioned that as well. re-read it

Still i don't mind sets that give stats, i don't mind sets that boost tooltips. I hate sets that do damage for you.

Amber is a bit strong yeah. But i'd rather have sets like amber than sets like viper/selene/skoria etc..

BohnT · July 2017

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We wanted to let you know that we have read your feedback about the Selene and Tremorscale item sets. We are still evaluating item sets on the PTS, including these two, so please continue to share your testing experiences with them.

Thanks for the reply Jessica

I tested them for the whole duration of the pts in duels against friends who know their stuff about pvp, and strangers who I have no clue of if they know how to pvp or not.

I tested it with 3 different people 3 duels with 4 different rules
1. Best of 3: no procs allowed
2. Best of 3: the looser of the first duels can equip 1 proc set and has to wear either selene or skoria
3. Best of 3: both sides have to wear either selene / skoria + free choice of a 3rd proc set
4. Best of 3: the winner has to equip either: sellistrix or Velidreth & widowmaker or Red mountain. Looser can equip selene or skoria + free gear choice

The results where devastating. If there was a clear winner in the first 3 duels, you could almost always see a difference afterwards. Selene was almost always responsible for one death that didn't occurred before.
In round 3 luck was the defining factor, we had 2 occasions where a player who lost 5 of 6 duels got lucky and won 2 in a raw with the proc of selene
In the 4th duel row we compared how often someone was hit by the procs of the opponent and the one without selene almost never got hit by the procs of his enemy while the enemy surely eat selene throughout the fights.

The duels weren't done with players of exactly the same skill level but we got an idea how much instant procs changed the game in a bad direction

BohnT · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

....and Lich isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich.

amber is worse than lich.

actually just edited my comment and mentioned that as well. re-read it

Still i don't mind sets that give stats, i don't mind sets that boost tooltips. I hate sets that do damage for you.

Amber is a bit strong yeah. But i'd rather have sets like amber than sets like viper/selene/skoria etc..

I think that's a bit of an two-edged sword. In a game where you can survive as long as you have stamina and magicka I found sets that give too much stats a bit critical. They don't ruin the game like procs but in the right hands they become very strong maybe a bit too strong.
I really have issues with sorcs that are build to be almost unkillable for one opponent mostly in conjunction with lich or amberplasm

SirDopey · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

....and Lich isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich.

amber is worse than lich.

actually just edited my comment and mentioned that as well. re-read it

Still i don't mind sets that give stats, i don't mind sets that boost tooltips. I hate sets that do damage for you.

Amber is a bit strong yeah. But i'd rather have sets like amber than sets like viper/selene/skoria etc..

It's because of sets like amber and lich that the arguments for proc sets remaining untouched survive though. If player A has Lich/Amber they're going to be able to outlast player B with the proc set equipped. Player A then only has to survive so long until player B is no longer able to do the damage to proc their set. On the counter, player B has to burst down player A before they run out of resources.

I don't think its "OK" for us to be saying it's acceptable to have overpowered sets propping up resources but it's not OK to have proc sets doing too much damage, they are yin and yang. I think this is especially true with the recent balancing of reducing sustain....

Personally I would like to see them re-engineer how proc sets damage is calculated so that there is a greater sense of diminishing returns rather than just a flat out nerf. This way they still remain relevant for people that build towards survivability by providing some form of damage without providing the ridiculous damage they do on builds that have maxed out stam/mag weapon/spell damage.

revonine · July 2017

Amber is incredibly powerful yeah and I'm really surprised it wasn't touched in the Morrowind sustain nerfs tbh. Your literally wearing two free mundus stones at gold with that set.

Kronuxx · July 2017

My two cents: Selene and Skoria both should be brought down a bit in terms of damage. Skoria I can never really determine when I'm about to get hit by this. The meteor speed is much more rapid than that of let's say: Ice comet. And although Selene at times, I can dodge it, it usually occurs because I was planning on dodging a different attack, and by chance I got lucky and dodged the procced selene attack. Both sets hit exceptionally hard without much thought from the user.

blur · July 2017

BohnT wrote: »

Both Selene and Tremorscale need to be brought in line with the recent changes to proc sets. They both grant hard or unavoidable damage.

Add a 1 second delay to both sets with a clear visual indicator where they will proc.

Additionally reduce selenes damage by 15%.
It has a tooltip of 15k+ more than: Wrecking blow, snipe and the initial hit of dawnbreaker.
This is too much for a free hit with now cost that can occur every 4 seconds.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

This is simply not true.
Selenes is NOT unavoidable. This player is either really bad at PvP or simply doesn't PvP at all. You put a giant telegraph on just about everything this patch. Selene's is very easy to avoid now when paying attention. It's a giant red cone, kind of hard to miss it...

Please stop dumbing down PvP. You already have Shuffle, hands down the biggest crutch in the game. Moreover you allow addons like Miats... please stop dumbing down pvp.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

blur wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Both Selene and Tremorscale need to be brought in line with the recent changes to proc sets. They both grant hard or unavoidable damage.

Add a 1 second delay to both sets with a clear visual indicator where they will proc.

Additionally reduce selenes damage by 15%.
It has a tooltip of 15k+ more than: Wrecking blow, snipe and the initial hit of dawnbreaker.
This is too much for a free hit with now cost that can occur every 4 seconds.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

This is simply not true.
Selenes is NOT unavoidable. This player is either really bad at PvP or simply doesn't PvP at all. You put a giant telegraph on just about everything this patch. Selene's is very easy to avoid now when paying attention. It's a giant red cone, kind of hard to miss it...

Please stop dumbing down PvP. You already have Shuffle, hands down the biggest crutch in the game. Moreover you allow addons like Miats... please stop dumbing down pvp.

You say don't dumb down pvp but say proc sets are ok?

Like proc sets aren't dumbing down pvp... why use skill when you can light attack to proc viper/ oblivion and selene.

Skullstachio · July 2017

If some of you are doing PVP with a warden, might I advise you to consult this handy build for insight? it does use the selene monster set to some extent, but what I put in here is a bit of flexibility to let people decide for themselves as to what monster set they wish to use in the build itself.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/updated-introducing-the-were-warden-build-for-wardens

TimeDazzler · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Selene procs fast and it quite hard to actually dodge unless your already going to dodge without knowing selene will proc.

Anyway, your signature says 'Bosmer stamina nightblade' which is guess is your main? So your here to defend the proc set you use and rely on.

Clearly a magicka main with infinite sustain and shield stacking wanting their cheese to be even stronger. You would assume with all these forum posts there would be an inkling of skill, apparently not.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Cries wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Selene procs fast and it quite hard to actually dodge unless your already going to dodge without knowing selene will proc.

Anyway, your signature says 'Bosmer stamina nightblade' which is guess is your main? So your here to defend the proc set you use and rely on.

Clearly a magicka main with infinite sustain and shield stacking wanting their cheese to be even stronger. You would assume with all these forum posts there would be an inkling of skill, apparently not.

im a magicka main? Ok

Read my sig

TimeDazzler · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Selene procs fast and it quite hard to actually dodge unless your already going to dodge without knowing selene will proc.

Anyway, your signature says 'Bosmer stamina nightblade' which is guess is your main? So your here to defend the proc set you use and rely on.

Clearly a magicka main with infinite sustain and shield stacking wanting their cheese to be even stronger. You would assume with all these forum posts there would be an inkling of skill, apparently not.

im a magicka main? Ok

Read my sig

I guess you don't know what main means.

SirSocke · July 2017

Yeah, you're right, I am a nightblade main and I use selene. But that's only to handle shield stackers and tankheals that where immortal without this extra bit of damage.
I've gone without proc sets for a long time, but with so many immortals with high damage I felt to do something...
So tone down shield stackers and tankheals and then proc sets can be disabled completely.
As long as there were those immortals I will try defend proc sets.
Sure, every other player is dying real fast and that's not fun (even for me) but someone has to handle those builds. And as everybody hates nightblades I do that dirty job...

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Cries wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Selene procs fast and it quite hard to actually dodge unless your already going to dodge without knowing selene will proc.

Anyway, your signature says 'Bosmer stamina nightblade' which is guess is your main? So your here to defend the proc set you use and rely on.

Clearly a magicka main with infinite sustain and shield stacking wanting their cheese to be even stronger. You would assume with all these forum posts there would be an inkling of skill, apparently not.

im a magicka main? Ok

Read my sig

I guess you don't know what main means.

The character you play the most or made first?

because both of those answers isn't magicka.

Derra · July 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We wanted to let you know that we have read your feedback about the Selene and Tremorscale item sets. We are still evaluating item sets on the PTS, including these two, so please continue to share your testing experiences with them.

Get any class and test it against a Valkyn Skoria magika DK tank/nuker and work with the results.
Get any class and test against a Valkyn Skoria magika Templar tank as well.
Observe easy and massive damage dealt by unkillable tanks. Examine Valkyn Skoria again.

Every class is balanced (except magsorc). These monster sets ruin the balance. Selene Tremor and Skoria need to be toned down.

Skoria is balanced and fine. Tremor and selenes are another story.

And yea, shuffle is balanced as well

Skoria is worse than selene as it´s 100% unavoidable and the adio cue is so unreliable you can´t block it unless you´re permablocking.

Skoria is so potent it gets used over selene/veli on certain stamina setups.

Derra · July 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@leepalmer95 ....and Lich or amber plasm isn't over-performing? Everyone claims that people dont want armour doing the killing for you.... how about we stop armour from sustaining so insanely for mistakes....

if any set in my mind is over-performing right now its Lich/amber plasm carrying sorcs.

Lich 5p bonus is perfectly in line with other 5p setbonuses. It gives 2.4 bonuses worth of regeneration IF it´s procced on cooldown once every minute.

Amber is a different topic. Most of the time the stamregen is a dead stat. It´s basically interchangeable with shacklebreaker though and shackle gives you the more desireable statcombination (for sorcs) as it provides more maxmagica.

The set that makes magica overperform is necropotence and that one gets buffed and easier to incorporate into a build.

Joy_Division · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We wanted to let you know that we have read your feedback about the Selene and Tremorscale item sets. We are still evaluating item sets on the PTS, including these two, so please continue to share your testing experiences with them.

Get any class and test it against a Valkyn Skoria magika DK tank/nuker and work with the results.
Get any class and test against a Valkyn Skoria magika Templar tank as well.
Observe easy and massive damage dealt by unkillable tanks. Examine Valkyn Skoria again.

Every class is balanced (except magsorc). These monster sets ruin the balance. Selene Tremor and Skoria need to be toned down.

Skoria is balanced and fine. Tremor and selenes are another story.

And yea, shuffle is balanced as well

How is skoria balanced? It provides frequent burst dmg to tanky dot builds. They get the missing element.
How is it balanced when it covers everything?

When something is BiS it IS NOT balanced. Same with shuffle.

Skoria is fine because it you need to apply dots and therefore sacrificing burst damage (which skoria is suppose to give you some). Ppl qq because it´s strong in nocp and battle grounds but so are most monster sets.

When something is BiS it IS NOT balanced

LMAO that logic

Your not sacrificing anything.

All dk's use embers for the heal (has a dot)
Most dk's use talons for the locking someone down (has a dot)
Easy to proc the burning effect... its a dot.
Breath to boost overall damage and apply a dot
Most ults have a dot
Not sure if inhale still counts as a dot
Double dot poisons
Use volatile armor for defence and healing, its a dot

What exactly do they give up?

Mag templars use vamps bane to proc effect, apply pressure and give themselves 10% crit.
Sweeps is their main spam skill, its a dot
Radiant is their execute its a dot
There ults are dots, DB/ soul assault/ etc...
Shards is a dot

What exactly do people give up?

300+ regen (wear 1 shadowrend + 1 chokethron + % bonuses) or
150ish Spell damage (inc bonuses) + about 140 stam regen (1 Kena + 1 Bloodspawn) or
2 complete and 100% active 5 piece bonuses using a vMA destruction staff (to be paired with 150 mag recovery or spell damage)
Wearing an effective an efficient monster set such as Bloodspawn that wont induce whining

All of these - especially that third one - all valid options that I weigh whenever I lose a fight where I run out of resources or the damage that I actually have control over, i.e. the burst damage I want when my opponent is vulnerable, is not there.

You and others allergic to what you feel are "skillless" and "Crutch" RNG anathemas will never be satisfied until any proc set damage is such a joke that nobody will ever use one. So you'll deny there are opportunity costs and only focus in on the advantages because that's how people who are more interested in promoting an agenda rather than a discussion operate.

The whole point of these "reward" sets is that they are useful and not sub-optimal trash that are best deconned. DKs and templars do not have easy access to burst damage and that's the only way to get a killing blow ever since 1.6 because of all the ridiculous defensive tanking and healing options. It hard enough to kill a decent player and people like you still scream NERF NERF NERF. OK, Radiant Destruction's damage has been eviscerated, I no longer have Major Mending, my Sweeps heal for crap with all the healing changes and debuffs flying around, I cant CC people with Blazing Spear anymore, repentance is garbage now. Not every class is a sorc and can just snap their fingers for on demand burst damage. It makes the game more interesting if Valkyn is a competitive option to add some burst beyond what is possible for players who don't have easy or predictable access to it.

If something is competitive, it's going to appear on your death-recap. Just because it does, doesn't make it OP. At the end of the day it is not you or ZoS that decides what it balanced or overpowered, it is all of your opponents. So go ahead and lobby ZoS with your agenda, make it such that Templars and DKs who find that death by 1000 cuts is not a rewarding experience and blame ZoS and people like you for why their DPS specs lose too many straight up fights. It doesn't matter if those players are "wrong," because they are the ultimate judge of what they play. So they'll just gravitate to something else that is "meta" and prompts whining on the forums ... I hear you highly dislike cliff racer spam

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Skoria is more OP than Selene.
A Selene user will get killed if you survive the gang.
A Skoria Dot tank (or magDK robe) will keep coming at you until you are ashes. They both need to be tuned down because they promote skill-less combat.

Lore_lai · July 2017

Sorry, @Joy_Division - but how can you call a free damage proc set that hits more than an ultimate, "competitive"?

What exactly is "competitive" about that? In order for that to occur - one must be in a state of competition with an adversary in regards to said proc set, right?
The only "competitive" aspect is if you can run said dungeon or not, or if you have the AP to buy when they are on sale.

You are comparing the nerf of classes to the cry for nerf for these sets? Have you considered that a lot of these nerfs came from the fact that overall combat was over-performing *because* of proc sets?

Derra · July 2017

I think skoria should get a clear visual indicator like normal meteors.

James-Wayne · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We wanted to let you know that we have read your feedback about the Selene and Tremorscale item sets. We are still evaluating item sets on the PTS, including these two, so please continue to share your testing experiences with them.

Get any class and test it against a Valkyn Skoria magika DK tank/nuker and work with the results.
Get any class and test against a Valkyn Skoria magika Templar tank as well.
Observe easy and massive damage dealt by unkillable tanks. Examine Valkyn Skoria again.

Every class is balanced (except magsorc). These monster sets ruin the balance. Selene Tremor and Skoria need to be toned down.

Skoria is balanced and fine. Tremor and selenes are another story.

And yea, shuffle is balanced as well

How is skoria balanced? It provides frequent burst dmg to tanky dot builds. They get the missing element.
How is it balanced when it covers everything?

When something is BiS it IS NOT balanced. Same with shuffle.

Skoria is fine because it you need to apply dots and therefore sacrificing burst damage (which skoria is suppose to give you some). Ppl qq because it´s strong in nocp and battle grounds but so are most monster sets.

When something is BiS it IS NOT balanced

LMAO that logic

Your not sacrificing anything.

All dk's use embers for the heal (has a dot)
Most dk's use talons for the locking someone down (has a dot)
Easy to proc the burning effect... its a dot.
Breath to boost overall damage and apply a dot
Most ults have a dot
Not sure if inhale still counts as a dot
Double dot poisons
Use volatile armor for defence and healing, its a dot

What exactly do they give up?

Mag templars use vamps bane to proc effect, apply pressure and give themselves 10% crit.
Sweeps is their main spam skill, its a dot
Radiant is their execute its a dot
There ults are dots, DB/ soul assault/ etc...
Shards is a dot

What exactly do people give up?

Templars give up movement.

Killset · July 2017

Sandman929 wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

I wonder if Lich, Rattlecage, Spinners and Necropotence could show up in recaps how many "overperforming" sets the forums would think we had?

I don't have any problems with sets that proc damage potential. Someone in the sets you mention still has to perform well to get the most out of the potential that these sets provide. Someone in a proc damage set has to perform a light attack.

Says the guy who zergs around cyridiil.

DRXHarbinger · July 2017

There is NOTHING wrong with Skoria... Seriously if it isn't Skoria that kills you you'll just find something else to cry about.

I bet a years wages that 90% of the QQ'ers on here that hate getting killed by Skoria, Selene and Tumorscale are actually wearing it themselves, or just do not know how to play a DK so cant enjoy it for themselves.

Seriously cry babies stop whinging over everything. It's been in the game for god knows how long, At launch (of COA2) this set was far far far worse in PVP, you could Talon a Zerg and have a rain of fire coming down...But then again half the people wouldn't know this and or couldn't complete Vet City of Ash / had friends to play with.

BohnT · July 2017

blur wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Both Selene and Tremorscale need to be brought in line with the recent changes to proc sets. They both grant hard or unavoidable damage.

Add a 1 second delay to both sets with a clear visual indicator where they will proc.

Additionally reduce selenes damage by 15%.
It has a tooltip of 15k+ more than: Wrecking blow, snipe and the initial hit of dawnbreaker.
This is too much for a free hit with now cost that can occur every 4 seconds.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

This is simply not true.
Selenes is NOT unavoidable. This player is either really bad at PvP or simply doesn't PvP at all. You put a giant telegraph on just about everything this patch. Selene's is very easy to avoid now when paying attention. It's a giant red cone, kind of hard to miss it...

Please stop dumbing down PvP. You already have Shuffle, hands down the biggest crutch in the game. Moreover you allow addons like Miats... please stop dumbing down pvp.

Nope totally wrong. I main a stamnb which I play since beta, also I have a dk that I played as a tank in pve, as a tank in pvp and as magicka and stam dk in pvp and as a magicka dk in pve
I also have a heal bot for pvp and a magicka nightblade that I played as bomber, ranged and currently as meele magnb.
And the next thing I'll finish is a stamplar.

And with all these chars I haven't joined any lfg groups or any groups with more than 6 players. I typically do 1vX or small-scale with 2 friends. I definitely know how to pvp and my proposals are made from the different views I get with the classes I pvp with.

There are things which are overperforming and I will say that they are op because I want a balanced pvp back in the game. Ever since Thieves guild pvp got worse due to newly implemented crap, now some of these things are being balanced, that doesn't mean that the whole game is balanced but it's a step in the right direction

Subversus · July 2017

People complaining about skoria but ignoring sets like necropotence...

BohnT · July 2017

Subversus wrote: »

People complaining about skoria but ignoring sets like necropotence...

This thread is completely about Tremorscale, Selene and Skoria.

There are other sets which need to be tuned down a bit but this is not the place to discuss it

arkansas_ESO · July 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We wanted to let you know that we have read your feedback about the Selene and Tremorscale item sets. We are still evaluating item sets on the PTS, including these two, so please continue to share your testing experiences with them.

Get any class and test it against a Valkyn Skoria magika DK tank/nuker and work with the results.
Get any class and test against a Valkyn Skoria magika Templar tank as well.
Observe easy and massive damage dealt by unkillable tanks. Examine Valkyn Skoria again.

Every class is balanced (except magsorc). These monster sets ruin the balance. Selene Tremor and Skoria need to be toned down.

Skoria is balanced and fine. Tremor and selenes are another story.

And yea, shuffle is balanced as well

Skoria isn't balanced, saying this as somebody that uses it.