The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Tremorscale and Selene are still overperforming
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akray21✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.- I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.
- I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead
- I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead
- I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead
Etc, etc.
It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.
Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.
I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.
And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.
But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.
It is free because its damage comes along for free with your main damage source that actually cost resource.
All this talk of opportunity cost - if you (general "you") are sacrificing so much, per your list, wearing these sets as opposed to others - then why not run those other sets?
Please don't tell me it's because you want to be the underdog and "play hard mode" by using proc sets because they make you sacrifice so much.
As for your ultimate comment - it doesn't matter - an ultimate is an ultimate - it's supposed to be the pinnacle right? A proc set should not do more damage than any ultimate, regardless of cost, period. (IMO)
Third - monster sets allow even the most badly specc'd, no damage build to do ridiculous amounts of damage because they do not scale on stats, only CP and I think Berserk buff. That in itself is simply horrible design.
It has been discussed in this thread that damage proc sets are used as burst to counter the heavy armor meta. By using proc sets you sacrifice a lot of self healing by missing out of WD/SD or crit. You miss out on ultimate regen with Bloodspawn, massive survivability with Pirate Skelton or Maulbeth, huge health regen with Troll King, or a bunch of WD with Viel/Kena combo. Proc damage is not free as much as anything else in this game isn't free.Edited by akray21 on July 20, 2017 8:51PM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??
You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.
All are suggestions that I can stand behind
It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.
Only if meteor is also reflectable, as are other projectile-type procs. It would not be reasonable for this one proc set to have a counter like that.
A telegraph on the ground should absolutely be added.
Meteor should also be reflectable. But just because they had this stupid idea to get rid of the reflect on meteor it doesnt mean skoria shouldnt be able to be reflected. Its free dmg for a set. Its not even an ability. It should have counters so people can start using their brain.1 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Ok already, you are dismissed from this thread. You can show yourself out.What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??
You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.
All are suggestions that I can stand behind
It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.
Only if meteor is also reflectable, as are other projectile-type procs. It would not be reasonable for this one proc set to have a counter like that.
A telegraph on the ground should absolutely be added.
Meteor should also be reflectable. But just because they had this stupid idea to get rid of the reflect on meteor it doesnt mean skoria shouldnt be able to be reflected. Its free dmg for a set. Its not even an ability. It should have counters so people can start using their brain.Edited by SanTii.92 on July 20, 2017 9:50PMWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.- I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.
- I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead
- I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead
- I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead
Etc, etc.
It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.
Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.
I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.
And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.
But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.
It is free because its damage comes along for free with your main damage source that actually cost resource.
All this talk of opportunity cost - if you (general "you") are sacrificing so much, per your list, wearing these sets as opposed to others - then why not run those other sets?
Please don't tell me it's because you want to be the underdog and "play hard mode" by using proc sets because they make you sacrifice so much.
As for your ultimate comment - it doesn't matter - an ultimate is an ultimate - it's supposed to be the pinnacle right? A proc set should not do more damage than any ultimate, regardless of cost, period. (IMO)
Third - monster sets allow even the most badly specc'd, no damage build to do ridiculous amounts of damage because they do not scale on stats, only CP and I think Berserk buff. That in itself is simply horrible design.
It has been discussed in this thread that damage proc sets are used as burst to counter the heavy armor meta. By using proc sets you sacrifice a lot of self healing by missing out of WD/SD or crit. You miss out on ultimate regen with Bloodspawn, massive survivability with Pirate Skelton or Maulbeth, huge health regen with Troll King, or a bunch of WD with Viel/Kena combo. Proc damage is not free as much as anything else in this game isn't free.
Yes proc dmg is free. You are not sacrificing anything. Its the exact opposite. It gives you stuff that you would otherwise not have because you would have to invest into dmg. But when you have the procs doing the dmg for you it means you can put everything else into sustain and survivability. The main reason of this stupid heavy meta is because you could play a tank and still maintain a lot of burst from procs. If tanks couldnt get that much burst then you wouldnt have the stupid heavy meta in the first place.
And troll king is broken too. There have been endless threads about troll king and how OP it is. Stop comparing broken sets to excuse other broken sets.
And there are a lot of other OP sets like bloodspawn and necro that were mentioned. But at least with those sets you still have to have some sort of skill to gain their usefulness. A trash player using bloodspawn or necro is still trash. Trash players stacking procs can one shot you because their dmg output has nothing to do with their skill as players.Edited by pieratsos on July 20, 2017 9:52PM7 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.- I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.
- I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead
- I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead
- I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead
Etc, etc.
It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.
Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.
I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.
And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.
But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.
It is free because its damage comes along for free with your main damage source that actually cost resource.
All this talk of opportunity cost - if you (general "you") are sacrificing so much, per your list, wearing these sets as opposed to others - then why not run those other sets?
Please don't tell me it's because you want to be the underdog and "play hard mode" by using proc sets because they make you sacrifice so much.
As for your ultimate comment - it doesn't matter - an ultimate is an ultimate - it's supposed to be the pinnacle right? A proc set should not do more damage than any ultimate, regardless of cost, period. (IMO)
Third - monster sets allow even the most badly specc'd, no damage build to do ridiculous amounts of damage because they do not scale on stats, only CP and I think Berserk buff. That in itself is simply horrible design.
It has been discussed in this thread that damage proc sets are used as burst to counter the heavy armor meta. By using proc sets you sacrifice a lot of self healing by missing out of WD/SD or crit. You miss out on ultimate regen with Bloodspawn, massive survivability with Pirate Skelton or Maulbeth, huge health regen with Troll King, or a bunch of WD with Viel/Kena combo. Proc damage is not free as much as anything else in this game isn't free.
It may have some opportunity cost but they are negligible nothing can compete with burst damage in pvp and procs give you exactly this lots of burst damage in one global cooldown on top of your other abilities. The most effective burst combos are the ones which time more than one skill on one gcd.
Frag+ curse+ mage's wrath
Vampires bane + jabs + power of the light
Dive + deep fissure + another skill
Ambush + incap + SA while stunned
These are burst combos which deal between 13-24k damage in relation to the target.
All these combos are fine as they are but if you mix in procs they get way too strong.
Ambush + Incap normally deals 8-14k damage
With a selene proc it jumps to 13-22k burst just for slotting 2 pieces. No matter what other things you equip nothing will help you more killing someone + a dead enemy can't hurt you as much as an enemy that's still alive.
Procs are too strong they grant you so much for almost no cost.
1pc veli + Kent = 258 wpn damage to get an additional 5k burst in one gcd you need much more than that
2 pieces which give you regen? Why use that if your whole jewellery can be enchanted with reg glyphs for more sustain and better damage
Another monster set that gives you survivability? Why would you use it if you have to spec more into damage which hinders your sustain and survivability
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ok already, you are dismissed from this thread. You can show yourself out.What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??
You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.
All are suggestions that I can stand behind
It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.
Only if meteor is also reflectable, as are other projectile-type procs. It would not be reasonable for this one proc set to have a counter like that.
A telegraph on the ground should absolutely be added.
Meteor should also be reflectable. But just because they had this stupid idea to get rid of the reflect on meteor it doesnt mean skoria shouldnt be able to be reflected. Its free dmg for a set. Its not even an ability. It should have counters so people can start using their brain.
Nah. Show urself out and the game is gonna get better. Sorry im not an advocate of removing skill from the game. Keep defending procs.Edited by pieratsos on July 20, 2017 9:59PM0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Keep bashing on stuff you haven't even tested. Well done.
Ok already, you are dismissed from this thread. You can show yourself out.What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??
You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.
All are suggestions that I can stand behind
It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.
Only if meteor is also reflectable, as are other projectile-type procs. It would not be reasonable for this one proc set to have a counter like that.
A telegraph on the ground should absolutely be added.
Meteor should also be reflectable. But just because they had this stupid idea to get rid of the reflect on meteor it doesnt mean skoria shouldnt be able to be reflected. Its free dmg for a set. Its not even an ability. It should have counters so people can start using their brain.
Nah. Show urself out and the game is gonna get better. Sorry im not an advocate of removing skill from the game. Keep defending procs.
Can you even comprehend what 'free' is? If i'm giving up blood spawn to pickup selene's there is nothing free about that. So just stop with this nonsense.Yes proc dmg is free. You are not sacrificing anything.
Not even possible anymore mate.Trash players stacking procs can one shot you because their dmg output has nothing to do with their skill as players.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Keep bashing on stuff you haven't even tested. Well done.
Ok already, you are dismissed from this thread. You can show yourself out.What would you do with Skoria to make it more balanced?? Haven´t seen any suggestions from you in this thread about it (can have missed it of course). How much would you reduce the damage with if that is the best way to make it more balanced for both PvE and PvP??
You can start by making it perform like meteor. A telegraph in ur feet and after a few seconds it lands. You should also be able to reflect, block, dodge it.
All are suggestions that I can stand behind
It´s already blockable. But making it reflectable would give more option for counterplay.
Only if meteor is also reflectable, as are other projectile-type procs. It would not be reasonable for this one proc set to have a counter like that.
A telegraph on the ground should absolutely be added.
Meteor should also be reflectable. But just because they had this stupid idea to get rid of the reflect on meteor it doesnt mean skoria shouldnt be able to be reflected. Its free dmg for a set. Its not even an ability. It should have counters so people can start using their brain.
Nah. Show urself out and the game is gonna get better. Sorry im not an advocate of removing skill from the game. Keep defending procs.
Can you even comprehend what 'free' is? If i'm giving up blood spawn to pickup selene's there is nothing free about that. So just stop with this nonsense.Yes proc dmg is free. You are not sacrificing anything.
Not even possible anymore mate.Trash players stacking procs can one shot you because their dmg output has nothing to do with their skill as players.
Since procs became a thing PVP has absolutely never seen a bright day and some people still think that procs are not free dmg. Yeah obviously they are balanced with all the other sets. Thats why everyone runs them after all right?
Or are you really gonna try to convince me that 1 veli 1 kena is gonna give you more than selene now?Edited by pieratsos on July 20, 2017 10:09PM0 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Proc users don't sacrifice anything.
Opportunity cost? Rubbish.
Procs allow you to invest in sustain while it maintains your burst damage, which is the only AGGRESSIVE tool you need in PvP.
Opportunity cost? Rubbish.
It procs all the time.
Reduce the proc rate and then come defend the opportunity cost argument.
Tanky Dot Skoria users and Light magDKs which have sustain and Dot tools can endure any pressure. Their enemies cannot endure Skoria procs. That is why it is OP.
If there was a volunteer that believes that Skoria is OP but has a magDK/TEMP tank using the set
and if there was a volunteer that believes that Skoria is fine go and do a video for us to further your arguments. Skoria will win 100%.
The reason why Skoria avoided the wrath of the players was that it is OP, making unkillable only 2-3 builds, while Selene can perform in any build. All they have to do is stack sustain and equip Selene.
Some builds can instakill. People had enough with cheap plays and ask for nerfs. The endEdited by GeorgeBlack on July 21, 2017 2:50AM2 -
SirSocke✭✭✭
Cool, so nerf mage rage, elemental fury and eye of the ... because I have them in nearly every death recap.
Bosmer stamina nightblade!0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division
I really enjoy discussions with you because you can actually argue without insults and in a very polite, yet concise way. I tend to be too cynical and snarky sometimes.
I agree that it would be the better solution if PvP wasn't all about burst and 100-0 in a second. As I perceive it ZOS introduced the sets either a) for PvE and didn't see what impact they would have on PvP or b) they were thought as band-aid fixes for other problems in the game. It didn't work out either way.
As someone else in this thread has said, sets that just give stats or a difficult to proc are better because they actually require the user to perform. I'm quite sure the hate against Viper and Selene comes in a large part from the fact any bad player can equip them and get his kills he otherwise wouldn't. I've dueled two of the best stamDKs EU repeatedly - when they go full proc it's outright disgusting. Selene regularly hits for 9k upwards which is almost half HP of most chars, and it procs very often. This "skill-less" part is an important point to how these sets are perceived in my opinion.
Skoria isn't as bad in my eyes because it requires DoTs, I'll concede though that it is very very strong in the hands of a good mDK. Dueling another one of my guildies - who is an excellent mDK - wasn't mich fun either.
Are the sets needed? I agree that mitigation and Healing have gone through the roof, and ZOS attempts at solving the issue were not successful. I don't think you can ever get that into a healthy (no pun intended) line again. So I suggest we should work from the other end - take away the damage that the ill-conceived Wrath passive and that these proc sets give. I don't think people will play their tanky builds very much longer when they find out they can't kill anything any more.
Of course this could lead to more zerging. It's not of any consequence if the Zerg consists of tanks. 70x 3k damage do. the job just fine.
It's all very complicated, as an Austrian chancellor once famously said.
Edit for typosEdited by Feanor on July 21, 2017 7:11AMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »It's not free because there is an opportunity cost. To get that damage proc I have to choose it over other options.- I could have 300+ magicka regen instead.
- I could have +5280 resistance, 15 ultimate, and 140+ stamina regen instead
- I could have two 5 always active armor set piece bonuses, +140 spell damage instead
- I could have 140+ spell damage and 140+ stamina regen instead
Etc, etc.
It is "competitive," a word I am using to mean roughly comparable to value to alternatives, only if the damage proc is desirable. It can compete with other gear options available. If it's not, than the set is sup-optimal, decon trash, noncompetitive, etc. It's not the greatest word, perhaps "viable" would fit the meaning better.
Why frame Skoria, as hitting harder than an ultimate when "ulitimate" has a wide range from the 250 cost Eye of the Storm, which can wipe entire raids, to the sub-optimal, noncompetitive DPS option in Empowering Sweep, which costs only 75? It's misleading because "ultiamte" doesn't have a fixed value that we can compare it. That's not trying to measure its value, rather depict it an unacceptably bad.
I am complaining about nerfs in general because all nerfs happen exactly because of how things are being argued: presenting intentionally misleading characterizations about game mechanics.
And the main culprit of the nerfs were not proc sets, but the Champion System.
But I'm done here because the people who disagree with me are not interested in examining the value of Skoria or other damage proc sets, they are interested in lobbying ZoS to nerf them. What exactly would constitute an acceptable damage number in a death recap? How should that value be determined? What mechanics should bring about the damage? None of this, just nerf it somehow. OK, make another "reward" set worthless. I'll just use another set and get "free" power that does not appear on people's death recaps.
It is free because its damage comes along for free with your main damage source that actually cost resource.
All this talk of opportunity cost - if you (general "you") are sacrificing so much, per your list, wearing these sets as opposed to others - then why not run those other sets?
Please don't tell me it's because you want to be the underdog and "play hard mode" by using proc sets because they make you sacrifice so much.
As for your ultimate comment - it doesn't matter - an ultimate is an ultimate - it's supposed to be the pinnacle right? A proc set should not do more damage than any ultimate, regardless of cost, period. (IMO)
Third - monster sets allow even the most badly specc'd, no damage build to do ridiculous amounts of damage because they do not scale on stats, only CP and I think Berserk buff. That in itself is simply horrible design.
I never said I was sacrificing so much. I said people had to make a choice. We do this in real life when deciding where to go to school, which job/career to take, whether to have the lasagna or lobster. And, no, I would never advocate that I would do anything or think something imbalanced is fine because I want to pay "hard mode" or wanted a challenge. I'd like to think that I have posted enough on these forums for people to know that even if they do not agree with my perspectives, they are nevertheless based on something substantive and have an underlying logic..
I can't answer for the general "you", but I can answer for myself: I don't always wear Skoria. I have run those other Monster sets, amongst others, and I have tried ambersplasm + shacklebreaker + Vma staff. Each configuration has its pros and each performs better in certain circumstances (though I would say No monster set is noticeably easier on a sorcerer than templar. I think templar need a monster set, but it's hard to get 2 five piece bonuses with a vMa staff. There are legit pros and cons in this respect).
Skoria, like all "free" damage options, works best when a player is not under attack or pressure from enemy players. But there are times I wanted to field a more defensive build (I am using light armor this patch after almost a year in heavy), and in those instances I went for "free" defense and have worn Malbeth and Pirate Skeleton. For a DK, I do not think there is at all a consensus that somehow Skoria is BiS. Bloodspawn has excellent synergy with a DK. It's all ambiguous as to what is best, as it should be. If templars had an ultimate worth casting, I'd also use Bloodspawn.
Speaking of which, I hope Empowering Sweep does not represents the pinnacle; I can out-damage that just by casting a Dark Flare or Purifying Light.
And that gets to the heart of our different perspectives, You want to argue from a philosophical perspective, that it doesn't matter that Empowering Sweep is dirt cheap and not even meant to be a DPS ultimate, the mere fact that a proc set does more damage is just inherently unacceptable. I emphasize the dirt cheap part, you emphasize the ultimate part. It's just two ways of seeing the same issue, which, as you noted, forms our respective opinions. I don't think the designers should be held hostage in determining the value of damage for gear, procs, skills, or anything just because there is a weak damaging templar ultimate that exists. But I'm a left brain thinker, so ideologies, tradition, philosophy, intent, etc., all take a back seat to numerical analysis, value, performance, etc. IMO.
I don't think you're "wrong" because I cant argue that my opinion is somehow better than yours. We just see things differently and as a historian, I know that's perfectly fine.
I do believe that people have become so sick and tired of what is the core issue - the abuses of multiple and simultaneous proc sets - that the backlash against all proc sets is missing the mark. I am not looking forward to a meta where Skoria is so bad that every DK and templar opts for strong defensive monster sets that offer power every much as free as what Skoria does on Live right now. Though that probably would at least make my Battlegrounds experience more palatable. Not sure the same can be said for my stam NB opponents.Edited by Joy_Division on July 21, 2017 7:46AM2 -
Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division
I don't think you thoroughly understand my perspective when I compare proc sets with ultimates.
It feels that we look at both of our argument points and we take them separately, outside of the bigger picture - which is - there are great imbalances in the game. Hence why I said an Ultimate is "supposed" to be the pinnacle.
Instead we should take both views into consideration. As in - there are ultimates that are very bad AND there are proc sets that completely and over-the-top outdamage the ultimates.
And there is also option 2 - there are ultimates that are considered good that are still outdamaged by proc sets like Selene.
So looking at the bigger picture and taking all views and opinions into consideration - I cannot argue that the game is balanced towards skillful combat.
(Sorry if I don't make my point across very clearly - English is not, after all, my native tongue).
You also haven't touched on my argument that it is completely imbalanced for someone to have absolutely horrible stats but still do big damage via procs because of how proc sets scale (or, better put, do NOT scale).
I am also not looking forward to the time where my class (or any other) is driven into the ground because of over-performing sets, whether defensive or offensive. For the simple fact that it kills build variety. There is a reason why all I hear in Cyro right now is mauling bears and Skoria meteors...0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's funny how people defend Selene because it's dodgeable. Try to dodge this nonsense with all the lags in primetime. The event right now is a perfect example why this set is not fine, basically impossible to dodge this stuff with all the lag going on.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »It's funny how people defend Selene because it's dodgeable. Try to dodge this nonsense with all the lags in primetime. The event right now is a perfect example why this set is not fine, basically impossible to dodge this stuff with all the lag going on.
You must proved that it's a lag issue, not an OP set issue...0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerf selene dmg by far more then 10%. How about removing 50% of the instant dmg and putting it into a bleed dot after it hits. That would atleast remove the burst of selene. Valkyns dmg needs to be toned down too, or make it reflectable and dodgeable.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭Nerf selene dmg by far more then 10%. How about removing 50% of the instant dmg and putting it into a bleed dot after it hits. That would atleast remove the burst of selene. Valkyns dmg needs to be toned down too, or make it reflectable and dodgeable.
No, the point of the set is burst.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerf selene dmg by far more then 10%. How about removing 50% of the instant dmg and putting it into a bleed dot after it hits. That would atleast remove the burst of selene. Valkyns dmg needs to be toned down too, or make it reflectable and dodgeable.
No, the point of the set is burst.
Yea and therein lies the problem, the burst is too much, hits harder then ultimates on a 4s cooldown.
PC EU
PvP only4 -
DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerf selene dmg by far more then 10%. How about removing 50% of the instant dmg and putting it into a bleed dot after it hits. That would atleast remove the burst of selene. Valkyns dmg needs to be toned down too, or make it reflectable and dodgeable.
Just no, valkyn isn't used to the extent of needing a nerf. So everyone wants the set changes to having a telegraph and being dodgeable AND blockable AND Nerfed AND refelctable? So basically make it useless to anyone that isn't fighting a scrub?
It's amazing how many people want to reflect it...I honestly thought hardly anyone played a Magdk in PVP except me...You will never out reflect this on a Stam DK, I can proc it more than your magika can regen and last. You'll get one reflect per wings cast and it doesn't even last as long as the cooldown and it's the only real projectile you'll get from a proper magdk / close range Magplar and stamplar they'll be jabbing in your face and proccing it and you won't be reflecting anything.
People need to give it a rest with Skoria before we end up with 0 sets to use.
Selene in reality is just plain meh, fair enough you got ganked and it procd...get over it.
Tumorscale isn't really that widespread, if you can't counter someone being in your face spamming pierce armor over and over then you don't belong in Cyro in all honestly, every class has a counter to it. Every Mag Class has access to a stun / knock back (shock clench and flame clench so easy) 90% of stam players are running some form of CC. nerf this set all you want, it is trash imo but way too much crying over nothing.PC Master Race
1001CP
8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
Master Angler
Dro-M'artha Destroyer (at last)
Tamriel Hero
Grand Overlord
Every Skyshard
Down With BOP!3 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People think procs are overperforming but fail to realize how op purge/healing/shield stacking/block mitigation is now... without these burst procs your looking at a tank meta worse then dark brotherhood.PS4 NA DC2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »People think procs are overperforming but fail to realize how op purge/healing/shield stacking/block mitigation is now... without these burst procs your looking at a tank meta worse then dark brotherhood.
The tank meta reached it's height when People relized that you can have 18k burst in full heavy with procs and poisons,
if you take away procs the tanks can't do anything and more People are forced to run medium and light again. Procs made cyro more zergy, with more tanks and more gankers and less skillful gameplay1 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »People think procs are overperforming but fail to realize how op purge/healing/shield stacking/block mitigation is now... without these burst procs your looking at a tank meta worse then dark brotherhood.
The tank meta reached it's height when People relized that you can have 18k burst in full heavy with procs and poisons,
if you take away procs the tanks can't do anything and more People are forced to run medium and light again. Procs made cyro more zergy, with more tanks and more gankers and less skillful gameplay
You are correct....however nerfing procs is not the solution. Introducing proc scaling is. That way tanks dont get huge proc damage compared to say a fully spec'd ganker. After this change though shield stackers would be king which would then need damage to no longer scale off max magicka. Then you choose shield size over damage. May need to include max stamina making less of an impact on damage also.
After all this happens, we would see better balance.
Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on July 21, 2017 1:33PMPS4 NA DC1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »People think procs are overperforming but fail to realize how op purge/healing/shield stacking/block mitigation is now... without these burst procs your looking at a tank meta worse then dark brotherhood.
I'm running medium armor without proc sets and I think that I suffer more from proc sets than 45k max magicka shieldstackers or heavy armor tanks do.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »People think procs are overperforming but fail to realize how op purge/healing/shield stacking/block mitigation is now... without these burst procs your looking at a tank meta worse then dark brotherhood.
I'm running medium armor without proc sets and I think that I suffer more from proc sets than 45k max magicka shieldstackers or heavy armor tanks do.
medium is another topic on its own.PS4 NA DC0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »People think procs are overperforming but fail to realize how op purge/healing/shield stacking/block mitigation is now... without these burst procs your looking at a tank meta worse then dark brotherhood.
The tank meta reached it's height when People relized that you can have 18k burst in full heavy with procs and poisons,
if you take away procs the tanks can't do anything and more People are forced to run medium and light again. Procs made cyro more zergy, with more tanks and more gankers and less skillful gameplay
You are correct....however nerfing procs is not the solution. Introducing proc scaling is. That way tanks dont get huge proc damage compared to say a fully spec'd ganker. After this change though shield stackers would be king which would then need damage to no longer scale off max magicka. Then you choose shield size over damage. May need to include max stamina making less of an impact on damage also.
After all this happens, we would see better balance.
You can´t introduce procc scaling because the builds with the highest possible weapondmg are heavy "tanks". Do you want fury seventh legion selene 15k+ hits?
You´d see 5k infernal guardians by 60k maxmagica sorcs.
Even the thought makes me shudder.
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division
I don't think you thoroughly understand my perspective when I compare proc sets with ultimates.
It feels that we look at both of our argument points and we take them separately, outside of the bigger picture - which is - there are great imbalances in the game. Hence why I said an Ultimate is "supposed" to be the pinnacle.
Instead we should take both views into consideration. As in - there are ultimates that are very bad AND there are proc sets that completely and over-the-top outdamage the ultimates.
And there is also option 2 - there are ultimates that are considered good that are still outdamaged by proc sets like Selene.
So looking at the bigger picture and taking all views and opinions into consideration - I cannot argue that the game is balanced towards skillful combat.
(Sorry if I don't make my point across very clearly - English is not, after all, my native tongue).
You also haven't touched on my argument that it is completely imbalanced for someone to have absolutely horrible stats but still do big damage via procs because of how proc sets scale (or, better put, do NOT scale).
I am also not looking forward to the time where my class (or any other) is driven into the ground because of over-performing sets, whether defensive or offensive. For the simple fact that it kills build variety. There is a reason why all I hear in Cyro right now is mauling bears and Skoria meteors...
@Lore_lai
It's not that I don't understand what you are saying about ultiamtes, it's that I don't view ultiamtes as something that are inherently special and worthy of some special power or status. To me they just are just another mechanic that adds value and options.
I don't think the game ever was meant to have a high skill cap or be geared toward complex, hardcore, or in-depth tactical PvP and the devs have been moving away from that since day 1. Which is fine, some of the best games I've ever played were of the "beer and pretzels" variety and ESO has a certain charm to it.
If Hattotri Hanzo or Serra Draconis put on Valkyn Skoira, they' won't do "ridiculous" damage, let alone dent my health bar such that I actually had to heal myself.
Rather it is the abuse of multiple and simultaneous procs from 5 piece armor set bonuses that lead to the sort of lethal damage from poorly thought out builds that you, I, and most everyone dislike. This has been identified as the core issue of the problem going back a year now and why many people have said limiting players to one proc set was a promising reform. I still think this was the direction ZoS should have gone (the Poisonous Serpent set is, I feel, still easily abusable and even though viper is a DoT, that's still a lot of damage on demand over a 4 second time period).
IMHO, the day has already long since past when your class has been driven into the ground. I don't know when you started playing ESO, but I've played a templar since Launch and what they can do on their own, without the benefits of gear, the champion system, and the other changes zos implemented to the combat system, is but a shadow to what they once could. ZoS has made it such that gear (and CP) are now essential components to any class.
Nerfing Skoria isn't all of a sudden going to change this, it will just further close off damaging options for Magplars and mDKs. Both will avoid this set just as they did during the Imperial City patch when it was bugged and terrible. DKs will probably opt for Bloodspawn and templars to what they feel is over-performing defensively.
@Feanor well put!Edited by Joy_Division on July 21, 2017 2:53PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »@Joy_Division
I don't think you thoroughly understand my perspective when I compare proc sets with ultimates.
It feels that we look at both of our argument points and we take them separately, outside of the bigger picture - which is - there are great imbalances in the game. Hence why I said an Ultimate is "supposed" to be the pinnacle.
Instead we should take both views into consideration. As in - there are ultimates that are very bad AND there are proc sets that completely and over-the-top outdamage the ultimates.
And there is also option 2 - there are ultimates that are considered good that are still outdamaged by proc sets like Selene.
So looking at the bigger picture and taking all views and opinions into consideration - I cannot argue that the game is balanced towards skillful combat.
(Sorry if I don't make my point across very clearly - English is not, after all, my native tongue).
You also haven't touched on my argument that it is completely imbalanced for someone to have absolutely horrible stats but still do big damage via procs because of how proc sets scale (or, better put, do NOT scale).
I am also not looking forward to the time where my class (or any other) is driven into the ground because of over-performing sets, whether defensive or offensive. For the simple fact that it kills build variety. There is a reason why all I hear in Cyro right now is mauling bears and Skoria meteors...
@Lore_lai
It's not that I don't understand what you are saying about ultiamtes, it's that I don't view ultiamtes as something that are inherently special and worthy of some special power or status. To me they just are just another mechanic that adds value and options.
I don't think the game ever was meant to have a high skill cap or be geared toward complex, hardcore, or in-depth tactical PvP and the devs have been moving away from that since day 1. Which is fine, some of the best games I've ever played were of the "beer and pretzels" variety and ESO has a certain charm to it.
If Hattotri Hanzo or Serra Draconis put on Valkyn Skoira, they' won't do "ridiculous" damage, let alone dent my health bar such that I actually had to heal myself.
Rather it is the abuse of multiple and simultaneous procs from 5 piece armor set bonuses that lead to the sort of lethal damage from poorly thought out builds that you, I, and most everyone dislike. This has been identified as the core issue of the problem going back a year now and why many people have said limiting players to one proc set was a promising reform. Nerfing everything else misses the mark.
IMHO, the day has already long since past when your class has been driven into the ground. I don't know when you started playing ESO, but I've played a templar since Launch and what they can do on their own, without the benefits of gear, the champion system, and the other changes zos implemented to the combat system, is but a shadow to what they once could. ZoS has made it such that gear (and CP) are now essential components to any class.
Nerfing Skoria isn't all of a sudden going to change this, it will just further close off damaging options for Magplars and mDKs. Both will avoid this set just as they did during the Imperial City patch when it was bugged and terrible. DKs will probably opt for Bloodspawn and templars to what they feel is over-performing defensively.
@Feanor well put!
How would you change skoria to incorporate counterplay?
The main issue i have with skoria is that it´s absolutely unavoidable (like tremorscale) but hit´s in the same dmg region velidreth or selene does - but those have counterplay and melee requirement.
Selene imo needs ~0.5s more delay for the dmg to hit to make it not a 100% hit on stuns.Edited by Derra on July 21, 2017 2:55PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerf selene dmg by far more then 10%. How about removing 50% of the instant dmg and putting it into a bleed dot after it hits. That would atleast remove the burst of selene. Valkyns dmg needs to be toned down too, or make it reflectable and dodgeable.
No, the point of the set is burst.
Reduce proc chance. When it procs, you burst.
Balanced
0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »@Joy_Division
I don't think you thoroughly understand my perspective when I compare proc sets with ultimates.
It feels that we look at both of our argument points and we take them separately, outside of the bigger picture - which is - there are great imbalances in the game. Hence why I said an Ultimate is "supposed" to be the pinnacle.
Instead we should take both views into consideration. As in - there are ultimates that are very bad AND there are proc sets that completely and over-the-top outdamage the ultimates.
And there is also option 2 - there are ultimates that are considered good that are still outdamaged by proc sets like Selene.
So looking at the bigger picture and taking all views and opinions into consideration - I cannot argue that the game is balanced towards skillful combat.
(Sorry if I don't make my point across very clearly - English is not, after all, my native tongue).
You also haven't touched on my argument that it is completely imbalanced for someone to have absolutely horrible stats but still do big damage via procs because of how proc sets scale (or, better put, do NOT scale).
I am also not looking forward to the time where my class (or any other) is driven into the ground because of over-performing sets, whether defensive or offensive. For the simple fact that it kills build variety. There is a reason why all I hear in Cyro right now is mauling bears and Skoria meteors...
@Lore_lai
It's not that I don't understand what you are saying about ultiamtes, it's that I don't view ultiamtes as something that are inherently special and worthy of some special power or status. To me they just are just another mechanic that adds value and options.
I don't think the game ever was meant to have a high skill cap or be geared toward complex, hardcore, or in-depth tactical PvP and the devs have been moving away from that since day 1. Which is fine, some of the best games I've ever played were of the "beer and pretzels" variety and ESO has a certain charm to it.
If Hattotri Hanzo or Serra Draconis put on Valkyn Skoira, they' won't do "ridiculous" damage, let alone dent my health bar such that I actually had to heal myself.
Rather it is the abuse of multiple and simultaneous procs from 5 piece armor set bonuses that lead to the sort of lethal damage from poorly thought out builds that you, I, and most everyone dislike. This has been identified as the core issue of the problem going back a year now and why many people have said limiting players to one proc set was a promising reform. Nerfing everything else misses the mark.
IMHO, the day has already long since past when your class has been driven into the ground. I don't know when you started playing ESO, but I've played a templar since Launch and what they can do on their own, without the benefits of gear, the champion system, and the other changes zos implemented to the combat system, is but a shadow to what they once could. ZoS has made it such that gear (and CP) are now essential components to any class.
Nerfing Skoria isn't all of a sudden going to change this, it will just further close off damaging options for Magplars and mDKs. Both will avoid this set just as they did during the Imperial City patch when it was bugged and terrible. DKs will probably opt for Bloodspawn and templars to what they feel is over-performing defensively.
@Feanor well put!
How would you change skoria to incorporate counterplay?
The main issue i have with skoria is that it´s absolutely unavoidable (like tremorscale) but hit´s in the same dmg region velidreth or selene does - but those have counterplay and melee requirement.
Selene imo needs ~0.5s more delay for the dmg to hit to make it not a 100% hit on stuns.
Skoria used to be reflectable.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »@Joy_Division
I don't think you thoroughly understand my perspective when I compare proc sets with ultimates.
It feels that we look at both of our argument points and we take them separately, outside of the bigger picture - which is - there are great imbalances in the game. Hence why I said an Ultimate is "supposed" to be the pinnacle.
Instead we should take both views into consideration. As in - there are ultimates that are very bad AND there are proc sets that completely and over-the-top outdamage the ultimates.
And there is also option 2 - there are ultimates that are considered good that are still outdamaged by proc sets like Selene.
So looking at the bigger picture and taking all views and opinions into consideration - I cannot argue that the game is balanced towards skillful combat.
(Sorry if I don't make my point across very clearly - English is not, after all, my native tongue).
You also haven't touched on my argument that it is completely imbalanced for someone to have absolutely horrible stats but still do big damage via procs because of how proc sets scale (or, better put, do NOT scale).
I am also not looking forward to the time where my class (or any other) is driven into the ground because of over-performing sets, whether defensive or offensive. For the simple fact that it kills build variety. There is a reason why all I hear in Cyro right now is mauling bears and Skoria meteors...
@Lore_lai
It's not that I don't understand what you are saying about ultiamtes, it's that I don't view ultiamtes as something that are inherently special and worthy of some special power or status. To me they just are just another mechanic that adds value and options.
I don't think the game ever was meant to have a high skill cap or be geared toward complex, hardcore, or in-depth tactical PvP and the devs have been moving away from that since day 1. Which is fine, some of the best games I've ever played were of the "beer and pretzels" variety and ESO has a certain charm to it.
If Hattotri Hanzo or Serra Draconis put on Valkyn Skoira, they' won't do "ridiculous" damage, let alone dent my health bar such that I actually had to heal myself.
Rather it is the abuse of multiple and simultaneous procs from 5 piece armor set bonuses that lead to the sort of lethal damage from poorly thought out builds that you, I, and most everyone dislike. This has been identified as the core issue of the problem going back a year now and why many people have said limiting players to one proc set was a promising reform. Nerfing everything else misses the mark.
IMHO, the day has already long since past when your class has been driven into the ground. I don't know when you started playing ESO, but I've played a templar since Launch and what they can do on their own, without the benefits of gear, the champion system, and the other changes zos implemented to the combat system, is but a shadow to what they once could. ZoS has made it such that gear (and CP) are now essential components to any class.
Nerfing Skoria isn't all of a sudden going to change this, it will just further close off damaging options for Magplars and mDKs. Both will avoid this set just as they did during the Imperial City patch when it was bugged and terrible. DKs will probably opt for Bloodspawn and templars to what they feel is over-performing defensively.
@Feanor well put!
How would you change skoria to incorporate counterplay?
The main issue i have with skoria is that it´s absolutely unavoidable (like tremorscale) but hit´s in the same dmg region velidreth or selene does - but those have counterplay and melee requirement.
Selene imo needs ~0.5s more delay for the dmg to hit to make it not a 100% hit on stuns.
Skoria used to be reflectable.
I can´t say i´m a fan of the reflect mechanic.
Also too inaccessible.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500
