Twisting Path Ninja Fix?

caperon · July 2017

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Twisting Path was never intended to be a "direct damage" attack - it should be considered a "damage over time" attack (much like other area of effect ticking abilities such as Wall of Elements or Ash Cloud). This first PTS build has a partial fix to its behavior, and a later PTS build will have the full fix for it (and the accompanying patch note).

We are also investigating better ways to communicate what is a "direct damage" attack versus a "damage over time" attack (along with other tooltip terms such as "melee" attack), so that it is more clear how certain Item Set procs interact with certain abilities.

Put it in the skill tooltip:

DMG type: (single target, ground aoe, aoe centered on the character), (direct damage or dot)

Twisting Path

DMG type: Ground aoe, dot

Even better, make a script to write this for you of all skills by checking what cp affects them, good for debugging too!

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Br1ckst0n wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

And yet most trial groups are filled, or almost filled with all mag dps. Why? Because they are far safer and play just fine at range. Stam is, as it should be, the strongest st dps.

Ironicly deadly cloak makes stamina safer than magicka atm.

Rofl, are you serious right now?

You all should chill, what are talking about here, 50 max spell dmge lost? 80 at best? Give me a break. It's a shame yes, it was fun but hardly a big deal.

Well, its partially true, cloak is really strong now BUT you need a healer (or lose skill slots) to survive or you just die slower. Shields can keep you alive by yourself longer. Its a decent trade off.

DerpyShadowz · July 2017

puffytheslayer wrote: »

DerpyShadowz wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

what?
so each tick of damage scales off direct damge and yet only the first tick of damage procs scathing!!!
why?

This isn't really unique to Twisting Path itself, the initial hit of a number of DoTs can proc this set when they don't come under the "Direct Damage" category. ie, Blockade, Liquid lightning to name a few, but to clarify, only the initial hit.

If anything this change makes it the same as these other DoT's, regardless of whether it scaled with Master at Arms or Thaumaturge.

but if the skill scales with master at arms it means it is recognised as direct damge so should proc sets like scathing and narineth

otherwise as other have said make it scale with thermatage and proc skoria

its the fact that it is neither one thing nor another and is working diffrently from everything else which is negativley effecting the mageblade in PvE

I have just checked when i got home, it does indeed work off Thaumaturge now. It proc'd skoria previously, even with it scaling with Master at arms.

overclocker303b14_ESO · July 2017

Agree with the bug fix (because at the end of the day that is what it was) but I think they should have included it in the patch notes.

DISCLAIMER: Yes I own a set of SM devine that I farmed. Ultimately I found the difference between it and Julianos was never really all that much anyway.

QuebraRegra · July 2017

Scyantific wrote: »

Scathing still procs from Funnel, Light and Heavy staff attacks, Impale, and Assassin's Will. Don't discount it just yet.

But either way this just means Julianos is gonna be BiS now for a 5x (I refuse to use BSW).

that whole "direct damage" language thing... it'd be real nice if ZOS documented their own terminology.

QuebraRegra · July 2017

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

The_Saint wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Jonno wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Jonno wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Yeah Twisting Path now scales with Thaumaturge and no longer procs Scathing Mage on non-first ticks. I guess with all the buffs to crit sources they thought it'd be too strong, but it's still a massive shame.

did you actually test this?

im been testing this on pts

im fully naked with lover mundus

i put 100 points in physical weapon exp it hits for 174 and 261 crits
i swap points to thaumaturge it hits for 174 and 261 crits
i swap points to MaA it hits for 217 and 325 crits

you have just made my day!

i hope you enjoy your gift - you earned it

it doesnt proc scathing though only the 1st tick does

what?
so each tick of damage scales off direct damge and yet only the first tick of damage procs scathing!!!
why?

Because its a dot that scales with maa (and thats wrong)... On live server it procs scatching but not nerieneth (direct damage) but it procs skoria (dot)

Its not fixed...

I would prefer direct damage with scatching, maa, nerieneth...but also the full dot thauma, skoria is ok..
Both will be more clear then now (live and pts)

i just want my head to stop hurting ZOS_GinaBruno can you clarify what is actually going on

I'm pretty sure this is my fault because @Wrobel didn't get any of the cookie.

nothing relevent to add as usual - go away little child

there's a term for this tho... "WROBEL'd'

Gilliamtherogue · July 2017

Jonno wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Yeah Twisting Path now scales with Thaumaturge and no longer procs Scathing Mage on non-first ticks. I guess with all the buffs to crit sources they thought it'd be too strong, but it's still a massive shame.

did you actually test this?

im been testing this on pts

im fully naked with lover mundus

i put 100 points in physical weapon exp it hits for 174 and 261 crits
i swap points to thaumaturge it hits for 174 and 261 crits
i swap points to MaA it hits for 217 and 325 crits

You might want to double check your testing; it's definitely using Thaumaturge and NOT Master-at-Arms. I'm using a character from the Live servers who was transferred to the PTS.

100 pts into Phys wep; 1294 non crit, 2071 crit
100 pts into Master-at-Arms; 1294 non crit, 2071 crit
100 pts into Thaumaturge; 1618 non crit (25.03% increase), 2589 crit (25.01% increase)

Rank IV Twisting Path, no augments/procs, just flat stats from gears. Static bar setup, etc.

Autolycus · July 2017

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Twisting Path was never intended to be a "direct damage" attack - it should be considered a "damage over time" attack (much like other area of effect ticking abilities such as Wall of Elements or Ash Cloud). This first PTS build has a partial fix to its behavior, and a later PTS build will have the full fix for it (and the accompanying patch note).

We are also investigating better ways to communicate what is a "direct damage" attack versus a "damage over time" attack (along with other tooltip terms such as "melee" attack), so that it is more clear how certain Item Set procs interact with certain abilities.

How insightful.

Investigating better ways to communicate? You can start by communicating the "full fix" for Path - I would really like to know what else you have in store for this, especially since this is not the only stealth "fix" discovered since Monday. It was never intended to be a direct-damage attack - that's pretty obvious.

A bug is a bug, I really don't care if you are finally fixing it. Communicating changes when they happen is important. Communicating the full change is important. And finally, consistency in the way skills and passives cooperate is important.

laksikus · July 2017

DerpyShadowz wrote: »

pu[quote= wrote:

what?
so each tick of damage scales off direct damge and yet only the first tick of damage procs scathing!!!
why?

This isn't really unique to Twisting Path itself, the initial hit of a number of DoTs can proc this set when they don't come under the "Direct Damage" category. ie, Blockade, Liquid lightning to name a few, but to clarify, only the initial hit.

If anything this change makes it the same as these other DoT's, regardless of whether it scaled with Master at Arms or Thaumaturge.

but if the skill scales with master at arms it means it is recognised as direct damge so should proc sets like scathing and narineth

otherwise as other have said make it scale with thermatage and proc skoria

its the fact that it is neither one thing nor another and is working diffrently from everything else which is negativley effecting the mageblade in PvE[/quote]

I have just checked when i got home, it does indeed work off Thaumaturge now. It proc'd skoria previously, even with it scaling with Master at arms.

[/quote]
I just tested it myself. And i had to do some testing rounds, and dont rly know what i should think about it
I always had 100 points in piercing and 20 in mighty to have all blue points spent.

100 in Precise strikes ( no thaumaturge or MAA): 1332 dmg
100 in MAA: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in thaumaturge: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in MAA, 100 thaumaturge, 20 mighty: always 1666
That said, MAA seems to get 1666 on more casts than thaumaturge, its mostly 1666, and sometimes 1332, on thaumaturge it seems like the other way around.

To see the different dmgs i recast twisting path AND let the enemy move, both could trigger to switch between the dmgs

So twisting path is even more broken than before, as it scales randomly of either, but never double dips in both.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Screenshots in spoiler

thaumaturge and MAA

thaumaturge

MAA

no thaumaturge, no MAA

EDIT: included combat metrics in spoiler

Xvorg · July 2017

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Twisting Path was never intended to be a "direct damage" attack - it should be considered a "damage over time" attack (much like other area of effect ticking abilities such as Wall of Elements or Ash Cloud). This first PTS build has a partial fix to its behavior, and a later PTS build will have the full fix for it (and the accompanying patch note).

We are also investigating better ways to communicate what is a "direct damage" attack versus a "damage over time" attack (along with other tooltip terms such as "melee" attack), so that it is more clear how certain Item Set procs interact with certain abilities.

Interesting. Now I know why it was worse than blockade...

DerpyShadowz · July 2017

laksikus wrote: »

I just tested it myself. And i had to do some testing rounds, and dont rly know what i should think about it
I always had 100 points in piercing and 20 in mighty to have all blue points spent.

100 in Precise strikes ( no thaumaturge or MAA): 1332 dmg
100 in MAA: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in thaumaturge: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in MAA, 100 thaumaturge, 20 mighty: always 1666
That said, MAA seems to get 1666 on more casts than thaumaturge, its mostly 1666, and sometimes 1332, on thaumaturge it seems like the other way around.

To see the different dmgs i recast twisting path AND let the enemy move, both could trigger to switch between the dmgs

So twisting path is even more broken than before, as it scales randomly of either, but never double dips in both.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Mmm, your wording is a bit weird, Are you aware that one number is non-crit and the other is a crit. So im assuming your non-crit is 1332 and crit is 1666.

But 100 in Thaumaturge definitely increases its damage, it makes no sense for you to get no change between Precise strikes,MAA or Thaumaturge

laksikus · July 2017

DerpyShadowz wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

I just tested it myself. And i had to do some testing rounds, and dont rly know what i should think about it
I always had 100 points in piercing and 20 in mighty to have all blue points spent.

100 in Precise strikes ( no thaumaturge or MAA): 1332 dmg
100 in MAA: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in thaumaturge: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in MAA, 100 thaumaturge, 20 mighty: always 1666

That said, MAA seems to get 1666 on more casts than thaumaturge, its mostly 1666, and sometimes 1332, on thaumaturge it seems like the other way around.

To see the different dmgs i recast twisting path AND let the enemy move, both could trigger to switch between the dmgs

So twisting path is even more broken than before, as it scales randomly of either, but never double dips in both.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Mmm, your wording is a bit weird, Are you aware that one number is non-crit and the other is a crit. So im assuming your non-crit is 1332 and crit is 1666.

But 100 in Thaumaturge definitely increases its damage, it makes no sense for you to get no change between Precise strikes,MAA or Thaumaturge

no, both numbers are noncrit, crit is 1999 and 2498. AND no wrong, 100 points in thaumaturge doesnt definitely increase the damage, it increases the damage only sometimes

I added combat metric pics to my last post, you can check it yourself^^

Erraln · July 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Twisting Path was never intended to be a "direct damage" attack - it should be considered a "damage over time" attack (much like other area of effect ticking abilities such as Wall of Elements or Ash Cloud). This first PTS build has a partial fix to its behavior, and a later PTS build will have the full fix for it (and the accompanying patch note).

We are also investigating better ways to communicate what is a "direct damage" attack versus a "damage over time" attack (along with other tooltip terms such as "melee" attack), so that it is more clear how certain Item Set procs interact with certain abilities.

How insightful.

Investigating better ways to communicate? You can start by communicating the "full fix" for Path - I would really like to know what else you have in store for this, especially since this is not the only stealth "fix" discovered since Monday. It was never intended to be a direct-damage attack - that's pretty obvious.

A bug is a bug, I really don't care if you are finally fixing it. Communicating changes when they happen is important. Communicating the full change is important. And finally, consistency in the way skills and passives cooperate is important.

Every x.x.0 version has included some changes that were only explained on the x.x.1 notes, as far as I can recall, in the last year. Sometimes it leads people to funny assumptions, when the change is noticed and then documented later, some react by assuming it was changed *twice* in that direction, doublebuffed or doublenerfed.... At any rate, this is par for the course on PTS.

We'll get a description next week.

Rocki · July 2017

Does anyone have any advice on which set to go for as a magblade now? I've wasted a silly amount of time mindlessly grinding Imperial City Prison trying to get the divine jerkin/robe to finish the set, my plan was to gold it out and then hit vMA, I've got 40 Dreugh Wax ready but what should I be going for? Julianos, TBS?

I'm never going to nICP again.

Edit: Just read Gilliamtherogue's reply on the first page, guess I'll just wait for the tests before doing anything.

laksikus · July 2017

@rockie
scathing was never optimal if you sue refreshing path in msa. Just go for easy craftable julianos.
It gets even buffed next patch

Rocki · July 2017

laksikus wrote: »

@rockie
scathing was never optimal if you sue refreshing path in msa. Just go for easy craftable julianos.
It gets even buffed next patch

I wasn't really trying to optimise for vMA, I don't have huge amounts of money so if I'm going to gold out a set, I want it to be the best overall for my class.

casparian · July 2017

laksikus wrote: »

I just tested it myself. And i had to do some testing rounds, and dont rly know what i should think about it
I always had 100 points in piercing and 20 in mighty to have all blue points spent.

100 in Precise strikes ( no thaumaturge or MAA): 1332 dmg
100 in MAA: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in thaumaturge: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in MAA, 100 thaumaturge, 20 mighty: always 1666
That said, MAA seems to get 1666 on more casts than thaumaturge, its mostly 1666, and sometimes 1332, on thaumaturge it seems like the other way around.

To see the different dmgs i recast twisting path AND let the enemy move, both could trigger to switch between the dmgs

So twisting path is even more broken than before, as it scales randomly of either, but never double dips in both.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Screenshots in spoiler
thaumaturge and MAA

thaumaturge

MAA

no thaumaturge, no MAA

EDIT: included combat metrics in spoiler

Geez. Really looking forward to the patch note on Monday now.

MisterBigglesworth · July 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

You caught me! It's a janky workaround to make sure the Z icon displays next to the thread title. Nothing to see here...

This is the most quintessentially ZOS thing I've ever read on these forums.
Let's break it down:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

It's a janky workaround

Totally on-brand.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nothing to see here

Perfect.

MikeyMutz · July 2017

cAN THIS COMPANY STOP NERFING everything i farm my butt off for wtf!?

first i get scathing then i get my sharpened vma staff now they nerf my whole build F off with that this is crap man

DerpyShadowz · July 2017

laksikus wrote: »

DerpyShadowz wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

I just tested it myself. And i had to do some testing rounds, and dont rly know what i should think about it
I always had 100 points in piercing and 20 in mighty to have all blue points spent.

100 in Precise strikes ( no thaumaturge or MAA): 1332 dmg
100 in MAA: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in thaumaturge: with different casts i got both 1332 and 1666 dmg
100 in MAA, 100 thaumaturge, 20 mighty: always 1666

That said, MAA seems to get 1666 on more casts than thaumaturge, its mostly 1666, and sometimes 1332, on thaumaturge it seems like the other way around.

To see the different dmgs i recast twisting path AND let the enemy move, both could trigger to switch between the dmgs

So twisting path is even more broken than before, as it scales randomly of either, but never double dips in both.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Mmm, your wording is a bit weird, Are you aware that one number is non-crit and the other is a crit. So im assuming your non-crit is 1332 and crit is 1666.

But 100 in Thaumaturge definitely increases its damage, it makes no sense for you to get no change between Precise strikes,MAA or Thaumaturge

no, both numbers are noncrit, crit is 1999 and 2498. AND no wrong, 100 points in thaumaturge doesnt definitely increase the damage, it increases the damage only sometimes
I added combat metric pics to my last post, you can check it yourself^^

Something very strange is happening indeed it seems. While i could not quite get the same results you had, i did have odd things happening.

My original testing was done vs a Target Skeleton.

For these i had 100 in Elemental Expert and put the random 20 points into Piercing

With 100 in Precise strikes: 1599 Non-Crit 2398 Crit
With 100 in Master at Arms: 1599 Non-Crit 2398 Crit
With 100 in Thaumaturge: 1947 Non-Crit 2920 Crit

These numbers were always consistent no matter how many times i tried.

I then afterwards tried, still 20 points in Piercing

With 100 in Thaumaturge + Precise Strikes: 1574 Non-Crit 2361 Crit
With 100 in Thaumaturge + Master at Arms: 1574 Non-Crit 2361 Crit

I could not at all get a reaction with Master at Arms on a Target Skeleton.

I have a video of these tests using a Template Character (Im EU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6C28dMH8Lg&feature=youtu.be

However this is where it got strange, i went to a spot with Dreughs (Same enemy you tested against) after creating that video, and while i could not get different values for non crits to happen, i found something else.

No points in Thaum or Master (All CP spent)

100CP put into Thaumaturge

100CP put into Master at Arms

100CP into Thaumaturge + Master

From those dreugh tests, The skill actually scaled with Master at Arms, and ONLY master at arms. (No change with 100 in both)

So what the hell is happening here?

Please tell me im not having a derp moment here LMAO

@ZOS_GinaBruno

MikeyMutz · July 2017

litteraly everyone will all now have the same stats no farming for sets cause the sets you farm for will be nerfed and they probably are the same stats as craftables now why even do dungeons anymore

Jonno · July 2017

dont think its a derp sometimes i log on and it scales with maa other times thaum if i fight moving targets it changes mid fight its so strange and hurts my head

casparian · July 2017

Maybe the set is now like Moondancer: sometimes you get one buff, sometimes you get another! Who knows! It's more exciting that way!

Dymence · July 2017

Well, ZOS did say they only applied a partial fix thusfar and will put in a more complete fix later on. So perhaps that's why it's just a mess now.

f047ys3v3n · July 2017

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Twisting Path was never intended to be a "direct damage" attack - it should be considered a "damage over time" attack (much like other area of effect ticking abilities such as Wall of Elements or Ash Cloud). This first PTS build has a partial fix to its behavior, and a later PTS build will have the full fix for it (and the accompanying patch note).

We are also investigating better ways to communicate what is a "direct damage" attack versus a "damage over time" attack (along with other tooltip terms such as "melee" attack), so that it is more clear how certain Item Set procs interact with certain abilities.

Communicating what is what better would be good. Right now it seems a little to me like a dark art figuring it out as things are often not what this seem and some abilities (spectral bow from relentless focus comes to mind) kinda act half one way and half the other with it taking time to charge the ability but then dumping damage at the end.

Actually, Abilities probably need some sort of icon to indicate what they scale off generally as some things scale only off resource pools and not damage and others also won't crit. Lastly, some abilities only scale off your character level which is to say they don't scale. Worbel's face should definitely be the icon for no scaling at all.

PS4_ZeColmeia · July 2017

Condolences for those that loved this combo, but I guess I'm not that upset cause I never used it. Personally, the biggest fix for NB burst should be the drop back to 4 of grim focus or an extension of length (although the drop back to 4 is preferable).

Also @ZOS_GinaBruno with the changes to scaling on proc pets, are NB pets also going to scale with spell dam & magicka? I feel this is overdue and would do a lot to improve the use of that skill. Currently the morphs do horrible damage and either are used to drain stamina in PVP for sheild users or as a way moving back to range for melee front/back bar NBs. Neither of those are really great enough to justify the slot on the bar unless your group mechanics really, really, really, really require it.

laksikus · July 2017

I did some more tests aswell after i remembered i could purchase target dummy with crown store.

And it seems like they changed it, so that on stationary targets it scales with thaumaturge.
But once you or your target moves it bugs out and it starts switching between MAA and thaumaturge.
Tested that with target dummy and simply moving back and forth with active twisitng path and while casting

@DerpyShadowz
couldnt reproduce that part. maybe it has to do with what cps you allocate first. seems strange anyway...

I then afterwards tried, still 20 points in Piercing

With 100 in Thaumaturge + Precise Strikes: 1574 Non-Crit 2361 Crit
With 100 in Thaumaturge + Master at Arms: 1574 Non-Crit 2361 Crit

Iyas · July 2017

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Twisting Path was never intended to be a "direct damage" attack - it should be considered a "damage over time" attack (much like other area of effect ticking abilities such as Wall of Elements or Ash Cloud). This first PTS build has a partial fix to its behavior, and a later PTS build will have the full fix for it (and the accompanying patch note).

We are also investigating better ways to communicate what is a "direct damage" attack versus a "damage over time" attack (along with other tooltip terms such as "melee" attack), so that it is more clear how certain Item Set procs interact with certain abilities.

Can you do the same for the warden dot (fetcher thingy) because its not a dot atm and cant proc valkyn

Capt_Morgan · July 2017

Next question then. If it scales off MaA while moving, does it proc scathing while in movement?

laksikus · July 2017

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

Next question then. If it scales off MaA while moving, does it proc scathing while in movement?

you know, i would love to test that, but zos gave us EU players only stupid uselets set on templates^^

QuebraRegra · July 2017

MikeyMutz wrote: »

cAN THIS COMPANY STOP NERFING everything i farm my butt off for wtf!?

first i get scathing then i get my sharpened vma staff now they nerf my whole build F off with that this is crap man

I'm just waiting for them to announce an increase in gear score, with no mechanism to re-level exisiting gear so I can walk away from this and put ZOS on my "list"

*as a side note: Steve Buscemi will play "me" in the movie of my life story, as the character "RockHound" from Armageddon*