Why do you think procsets are broken in PvP combat?

Lexxypwns · July 2017

Sarato wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I said @Waffennacht should learn to have better counters against procs(l2p against them so he'd be less troubled) not that he shud l2p w/o them. This was a very good response, I agree. From there it's all dev work.

@leepalmer95 Ok you played ur stam toon for a week cool man. What I'm saying is you advocated for nerf on a set that isn't even a problem. Why would you do that? biased biased biased. Y'know if some sh** was to be nerfed harshly you wouldn't be affected due to having all those characters, making drastic bullsh** changes that you could easily advocate adaptable.

I apologize for misreading you comment but my sentiment still stands, he's running a build that has the tools to counter proc sets, namely high mitigation and big heals to reset the fight.

Sarato · July 2017

@Lexxypwns No problem @ all; ahh gotcha.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Sarato wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I said @Waffennacht should learn to have better counters against procs(l2p against them so he'd be less troubled) not that he shud l2p w/o them. This was a very good response, I agree. From there it's all dev work.

@leepalmer95 Ok you played ur stam toon for a week cool man. What I'm saying is you advocated for nerf on a set that isn't even a problem. Why would you do that? biased biased biased. Y'know if some sh** was to be nerfed harshly you wouldn't be affected due to having all those characters, making drastic bullsh** changes that you could easily advocate adaptable.

I'm pretty sure the fact i have 8 characters and play them all would make my suggestions not biased? Unlike some people you included who play 1-2 characters and will defend anything that will nerf them.

Wrong way round buddy. It's not me whose biased, it's you.

usmcjdking · July 2017

Not all procsets are broken, the concept of proc sets aren't broken either. There are a few that IMO work very well; Poisonous Serpent and Overwhelming are two good damaging proc sets that have significant requirements to make them work.

The conditions upon which proc sets may occur are wildly out of balance. Viper, Red Mountain, Velidreth, Selene's (to a degree) and Skoria are all sets that passively proc incredible amounts of damage as long as you generally just press buttons in no specific order or manner. They require you do nothing exceptional unlike the aforementioned sets which are both high damage but in PVP have significantly lower overall contirbutions to the engagement. This is flawed in all reasoning and logic when it comes to balancing.

Offensive proc sets should always consist of atleast (2) conditional requirements. Those two can be a combination of static input and non-static input. Static being things that will inevitably occur during combat and non-static being things that require active application.

Viper:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

This is (1) static requirement. Do melee damage. To help alleviate the issue of viper overperforming, it COULD read one of the following:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you have a 25% chance for an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Static)
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack to an opponent above 60% health, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Non-static)
When you deal damage with a melee skill to a disabled opponent, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Non-static/Non-static)

Sarato · July 2017

@leepalmer95

It's an "OK!" with a nerf against procs and shieldbreaker along w/whatever else if there is anything else.

And apparently all people w/1-2 mained toons only should be striped the right to persuade against any nerf put on them or their builds correct? They need more toons to prove their credibility? Stop being a clown.

So Kiddo, being unbiased, having 8 toons means if one of them gets nerfed harshly because you advocated for something stupid means you won't be able to switch to another toon with ease? And how is this ok? B/c everyone should have all characters just incase some stupida**es decide to publicly support a horrible nerf w/o providing valid calculations, video, proper evidence and is then enabled? Then what, wait for a buff just so it can be complained about again? lmfao try again buddy.

I doubt you can ever answer why shldbreak should be nerfed, can we even start on this topic or are you just gonna flip flop around it and act like you've never said it lol.

Waffennacht · July 2017

I was gonna post a long well written point about how streak, black rose, shield duration, tremorscale, pirate Skeleton, resource poisons, battlespirit, all of them were at this exact point. About how each was over performing and how people were on both sides and how it didn't ruin the game.

But then I realized it doesn't matter and they are gonna do it, so why bother?

Plus, ya know, apparently I can't play against proc builds lmfao

Sarato · July 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

I was gonna post a long well written point about how streak, black rose, shield duration, tremorscale, pirate Skeleton, resource poisons, battlespirit, all of them were at this exact point. About how each was over performing and how people were on both sides and how it didn't ruin the game.

But then I realized it doesn't matter and they are gonna do it, so why bother?

Plus, ya know, apparently I can't play against proc builds lmfao

:P

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Sarato wrote: »

@leepalmer95

It's an "OK!" with a nerf against procs and shieldbreaker along w/whatever else if there is anything else.

And apparently all people w/1-2 mained toons only should be striped the right to persuade against any nerf put on them or their builds correct? They need more toons to prove their credibility? Stop being a clown.

So Kiddo, being unbiased, having 8 toons means if one of them gets nerfed harshly because you advocated for something stupid means you won't be able to switch to another toon with ease? And how is this ok? B/c everyone should have all characters just incase some stupida**es decide to publicly support a horrible nerf w/o providing valid calculations, video, proper evidence and is then enabled? Then what, wait for a buff just so it can be complained about again? lmfao try again buddy.

I doubt you can ever answer why shldbreak should be nerfed, can we even start on this topic or are you just gonna flip flop around it and act like you've never said it lol.

Viper is equal too around 900 wpn dmg in pvp. theres a fact. Explain that balance?
If i incap someone on my stam nb my selene ends up having a 20.5k tooltip when it procs, how is that balanced? I can animation cancel it and i always do animation cancel my incap.

You've been given facts.
You've been given evidence

Because you can't handle the facts and evidence you conveniently ignore them or try and change the topic because you have nothing to reply back too. You troll for a few posts then cry again for 'facts', evidence your terrible at this whole discussion/ argument thing 'kiddo'

Also shieldbreaker shouldn't be nerfed it should be removed. Its the equivalent of a set stating all your skills will now hit through roll, or a nb can't cloak within 28m of you. Or it just stops a templar casting breath of life or makes a character lose the ability to block.

Its a set that directly bypasses a classes main defence, it's a silly set used by bad players who still haven't figured out how to kill a mag sorc yet.

I literally said i've been playing my procblade since morrowind release and here i am in a thread stating that it needs to be nerfed, how am i biased?

Yes people with 1-2 character will be obviously biased for them, they will ignore what is actually balanced choices in order to try and keep their character strong. What else do you wan't me to explain if you can't understand that simple logic there is no hope for you.

Honestly saying i'm biased, its the other way around man.

Gilvoth · July 2017

Sarato wrote: »

@dwemer_paleologist what do you suggest?

im no expert, but i think if we simply increased survival of people more in cryodiil and make it harder to kill people then we all would have fun.
make everyone have the same amount of survivability and same damage output and you got a real deal.

cpuScientist · July 2017

Sarato wrote: »

@leepalmer95 -so ur telling me u know when a snipe is about to hit u at all times? lol shh this is where the addon comes in handy, again, also doesnt tell u when to dodge. read pls.
-ye i guess light arm w/shields die huh, and if medium armored players can kill other medium armored players 1hit proc. thats balanced lmao, may be high dmg for both medium armored players, but its still balanced. shh
-so ur saying u can oneshot all tanks builds if selene procs?
-oh *** man! so am I bad for 1vXing with procs or am I bad for 1vXing w/o them? Did you just choose to disregard the 1vX part LOL
-now you're hating on skoria worn by magdks LOL? l2p dude

OMG you are defending procs and Miats. You are a really good TROLL. DAMN IT why did I not make this forum post first ughhh. This has to be pure entertainment for you. And then the way you are replying with the shhh and the ur and the ye, no regard for grammar. Oh man you my hero.

PS reply dismissingly or just ignore this to keep up the troll, I'm loving it! Keep checking back for more victims!

Sarato · July 2017

@leepalmer95 LOLL
-nah i fight viper n selene for days kiddo its easy pzy, only fact ur giving me is u have trouble surviving it! r u telling me ur oneshotting everything? :0
-lol u salty, just calm down and provide me some more information
-Hmm ok got some info here for you: "You have 20k health in pvp, a player needs 10 consecutive light attacks to kill the sorc w/shieldbreaker. Sorcs life regen is 700 every 2 seconds, surge heals every 1k per second, and after casting healing ward is back to full hp after 5 seconds, You need to land a light attack every second for 28 seconds to kill a sorc with shieldbreaker."
-Nah nah def not biased, prefer spriggans over viper and wd helm/shoulder over 2pc monster sets
cmon lil kiddo no need to be salty.

@cpuScientist
stfu provide some facts please or else u just dont know what ur talking abt

Sarato · July 2017

@leepalmer95 What's your thoughts on skoria mr. salt?

cpuScientist · July 2017

@Sarato I will say though. The proc monster sets are all fine, in fact I love them as ZOS took time to make them powerful but you can counter and react to them. I dislike the sets like viper that just deliver hidden unavoidable damage. But those only usually hit for 2-4k. In a 1v1 they are not horrible. But PvP is not balanced around duels, it's balanced around open world and now BG I guess and that's where they become a real problem.

IMO they should drop or change the viper type sets. But hopefully ZOS doesn't just drop the hammer on all proc sets as they are a good part of the game when done right.

Sarato · July 2017

cpuScientist wrote: »

@Sarato I will say though. The proc monster sets are all fine, in fact I love them as ZOS took time to make them powerful but you can counter and react to them. I dislike the sets like viper that just deliver hidden unavoidable damage. But those only usually hit for 2-4k. In a 1v1 they are not horrible. But PvP is not balanced around duels, it's balanced around open world and now BG I guess and that's where they become a real problem.

IMO they should drop or change the viper type sets. But hopefully ZOS doesn't just drop the hammer on all proc sets as they are a good part of the game when done right.

Yes dueling most definitely isn't balanced. Very annoying.

usmcjdking · July 2017

cpuScientist wrote: »

@Sarato I will say though. The proc monster sets are all fine, in fact I love them as ZOS took time to make them powerful but you can counter and react to them. I dislike the sets like viper that just deliver hidden unavoidable damage. But those only usually hit for 2-4k. In a 1v1 they are not horrible. But PvP is not balanced around duels, it's balanced around open world and now BG I guess and that's where they become a real problem.

IMO they should drop or change the viper type sets. But hopefully ZOS doesn't just drop the hammer on all proc sets as they are a good part of the game when done right.

Molag Kena is the only balanced monster set. Pirate King would be if it's uptime was reduced to ~60% and the debuff was tethered to the proc and non-purgeable.

Sarato · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

@Sarato I will say though. The proc monster sets are all fine, in fact I love them as ZOS took time to make them powerful but you can counter and react to them. I dislike the sets like viper that just deliver hidden unavoidable damage. But those only usually hit for 2-4k. In a 1v1 they are not horrible. But PvP is not balanced around duels, it's balanced around open world and now BG I guess and that's where they become a real problem.

IMO they should drop or change the viper type sets. But hopefully ZOS doesn't just drop the hammer on all proc sets as they are a good part of the game when done right.

Molag Kena is the only balanced monster set. Pirate King would be if it's uptime was reduced to ~60% and the debuff was tethered to the proc and non-purgeable.

Only molag kena huh

Lexxypwns · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Not all procsets are broken, the concept of proc sets aren't broken either. There are a few that IMO work very well; Poisonous Serpent and Overwhelming are two good damaging proc sets that have significant requirements to make them work.

The conditions upon which proc sets may occur are wildly out of balance. Viper, Red Mountain, Velidreth, Selene's (to a degree) and Skoria are all sets that passively proc incredible amounts of damage as long as you generally just press buttons in no specific order or manner. They require you do nothing exceptional unlike the aforementioned sets which are both high damage but in PVP have significantly lower overall contirbutions to the engagement. This is flawed in all reasoning and logic when it comes to balancing.

Offensive proc sets should always consist of atleast (2) conditional requirements. Those two can be a combination of static input and non-static input. Static being things that will inevitably occur during combat and non-static being things that require active application.

Viper:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

This is (1) static requirement. Do melee damage. To help alleviate the issue of viper overperforming, it COULD read one of the following:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you have a 25% chance for an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Static)
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack to an opponent above 60% health, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Non-static)
When you deal damage with a melee skill to a disabled opponent, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Non-static/Non-static)

Actually poisonous serpent and overwhelming surge are so broken as to be banned in most dueling environments, even ones that allow damage procs.

@leepalmer95 your "fact" about viper is a lie and whoever came up with that "math" is completely incorrect. But, even if it were true, that's still more than every other set in game.

cpuScientist · July 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

@Sarato I will say though. The proc monster sets are all fine, in fact I love them as ZOS took time to make them powerful but you can counter and react to them. I dislike the sets like viper that just deliver hidden unavoidable damage. But those only usually hit for 2-4k. In a 1v1 they are not horrible. But PvP is not balanced around duels, it's balanced around open world and now BG I guess and that's where they become a real problem.

IMO they should drop or change the viper type sets. But hopefully ZOS doesn't just drop the hammer on all proc sets as they are a good part of the game when done right.

Molag Kena is the only balanced monster set. Pirate King would be if it's uptime was reduced to ~60% and the debuff was tethered to the proc and non-purgeable.

Only Kena? Are you saying there are some underpowered ones too or is Nerienth OP lol?

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Not all procsets are broken, the concept of proc sets aren't broken either. There are a few that IMO work very well; Poisonous Serpent and Overwhelming are two good damaging proc sets that have significant requirements to make them work.

The conditions upon which proc sets may occur are wildly out of balance. Viper, Red Mountain, Velidreth, Selene's (to a degree) and Skoria are all sets that passively proc incredible amounts of damage as long as you generally just press buttons in no specific order or manner. They require you do nothing exceptional unlike the aforementioned sets which are both high damage but in PVP have significantly lower overall contirbutions to the engagement. This is flawed in all reasoning and logic when it comes to balancing.

Offensive proc sets should always consist of atleast (2) conditional requirements. Those two can be a combination of static input and non-static input. Static being things that will inevitably occur during combat and non-static being things that require active application.

Viper:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

This is (1) static requirement. Do melee damage. To help alleviate the issue of viper overperforming, it COULD read one of the following:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you have a 25% chance for an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Static)
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack to an opponent above 60% health, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Non-static)
When you deal damage with a melee skill to a disabled opponent, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Non-static/Non-static)

Actually poisonous serpent and overwhelming surge are so broken as to be banned in most dueling environments, even ones that allow damage procs.

@leepalmer95 your "fact" about viper is a lie and whoever came up with that "math" is completely incorrect. But, even if it were true, that's still more than every other set in game.

@Lexxypwns You commented it in.

The original post is a bit off but they do considering crits and such later on,

Lexxypwns · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Not all procsets are broken, the concept of proc sets aren't broken either. There are a few that IMO work very well; Poisonous Serpent and Overwhelming are two good damaging proc sets that have significant requirements to make them work.

The conditions upon which proc sets may occur are wildly out of balance. Viper, Red Mountain, Velidreth, Selene's (to a degree) and Skoria are all sets that passively proc incredible amounts of damage as long as you generally just press buttons in no specific order or manner. They require you do nothing exceptional unlike the aforementioned sets which are both high damage but in PVP have significantly lower overall contirbutions to the engagement. This is flawed in all reasoning and logic when it comes to balancing.

Offensive proc sets should always consist of atleast (2) conditional requirements. Those two can be a combination of static input and non-static input. Static being things that will inevitably occur during combat and non-static being things that require active application.

Viper:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

This is (1) static requirement. Do melee damage. To help alleviate the issue of viper overperforming, it COULD read one of the following:
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack, you have a 25% chance for an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Static)
When you deal damage with a Melee Attack to an opponent above 60% health, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Static/Non-static)
When you deal damage with a melee skill to a disabled opponent, you deal an additional 6400 Poison damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds. (Non-static/Non-static)

Actually poisonous serpent and overwhelming surge are so broken as to be banned in most dueling environments, even ones that allow damage procs.

@leepalmer95 your "fact" about viper is a lie and whoever came up with that "math" is completely incorrect. But, even if it were true, that's still more than every other set in game.

@Lexxypwns You commented it in.

The original post is a bit off but they do considering crits and such later on,

I know exactly which post you mention. My scorn for its accuracy remains the same. Viper adds significantly more to a build than 900 weapon damage. You lose out on healing, but the increased pressure and burst help mitigate that since you know you can put them on the defensive every 4 seconds. It is impossible to quantify the exact strength of viper or other damage proc sets because the ability to reset a fight, virtually at will, has limitless usefulness.

Also, pre-nerf BSW gave you just under 900 spell damage with less availability than viper and was so overwhelming BiS that most mag builds ran it in Pvp to the point that it got nerfed to be more in line with other sets.

"Math" may say viper gives 900 weapon damage, which is still too much for a 5pc, but it is impossible to accurately quantify what viper brings to the table. Another example, if you're running new Stam set that gives 900 weapon damage, you will still need to use more resources to secure kills, since you don't have a resource free 4k damage added to your burst. There's a lot more than that as well, but it's late and I'm tired.

I think something has to happen with over performing sets, but I haven't seen a good suggestion that doesn't create a new, arguably just a bad, meta

usmcjdking · July 2017

cpuScientist wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

@Sarato I will say though. The proc monster sets are all fine, in fact I love them as ZOS took time to make them powerful but you can counter and react to them. I dislike the sets like viper that just deliver hidden unavoidable damage. But those only usually hit for 2-4k. In a 1v1 they are not horrible. But PvP is not balanced around duels, it's balanced around open world and now BG I guess and that's where they become a real problem.

IMO they should drop or change the viper type sets. But hopefully ZOS doesn't just drop the hammer on all proc sets as they are a good part of the game when done right.

Molag Kena is the only balanced monster set. Pirate King would be if it's uptime was reduced to ~60% and the debuff was tethered to the proc and non-purgeable.

Only Kena? Are you saying there are some underpowered ones too or is Nerienth OP lol?

I didn't say it was OP, I said it wasn't balanced. Nerieneth does far too little damage to be balanced.

cpuScientist · July 2017

Ok just let's say proc sets get deleted. What is the forseeable meta that would rise? Stacking stats? Regen? Just pure tanks? I'd like any opinions.

O_LYKOS · July 2017

They're not broken lol people just don't like being killed by them.

Just like I hate being ambushed and killed by a Nightblade. But it happens, it's apart of the game lol I deal with it

lucky_Sage · July 2017

Sarato wrote: »

@lucky_Sage Everyone can animation cancel. "a heavy attacked cancled with a ambush cancled by uncap with a viper and selene"
So what're you're saying is selene will always proc, that combo(which is in the wrong order) will guranteed one shot anyone on PvP, and that incap is always ready for the next person after you've killed someone and again ready for the next person? What is this logic

@Sarato

it wasn't meant to be right order it was put that way just to so procs carry player in pvp
and incap high dmg and low cost with nb high ult regen uncap is basically always up for the next person

incap needs the cc removed

maybe procs should be just removed from pvp

or adding a global cooldown so it pointless to run 2 or 3 sets 4

Gan Xing · July 2017

I guess my previous comment was outright ignored...

I said what i wanted to, and won't add any more, but I enjoy reading the comments in this thread...

leepalmer95 · July 2017

O_LYKOS wrote: »

They're not broken lol people just don't like being killed by them.

Just like I hate being ambushed and killed by a Nightblade. But it happens, it's apart of the game lol I deal with it

Did you not read the entire thread or what?

Found the casual procblade.

Waffennacht · July 2017

Gan Xing wrote: »

I guess my previous comment was outright ignored...

I said what i wanted to, and won't add any more, but I enjoy reading the comments in this thread...

I went back to your last post.

Um, agreed? I don't think proc sets need removal - quite frankly only what 3 are really even mentioned?

But I think this environment created by proc sets is one of the least diverse I've seen yet

Azramel · July 2017

Proc sets are unbalanced and I'm just referring to proc set comparisons like viper vs sheer venom or skoria vs grothdar. Viper adds a lot more damage over time than a set like sheer venom which is damage-over-time. Sheer venom hits like a wet noodle, even in pve, and can also be blocked in pvp. (dots with the exception of channels are suppose to be unblockable last i checked)

Basically direct damage is currently king in procs and dot procs are very underpowered and not worth using over direct.

I'd like to see sets like Sheer venom and Overwhelming set more viable for pvp, especially since it drops from a pvp dlc and comes in impenetrable for a reason.

Sarato · July 2017

Azramel wrote: »

Proc sets are unbalanced and I'm just referring to proc set comparisons like viper vs sheer venom or skoria vs grothdar. Viper adds a lot more damage over time than a set like sheer venom which is damage-over-time. Sheer venom hits like a wet noodle, even in pve, and can also be blocked in pvp. (dots with the exception of channels are suppose to be unblockable last i checked)

Basically direct damage is currently king in procs and dot procs are very underpowered and not worth using over direct.

I'd like to see sets like Sheer venom and Overwhelming set more viable for pvp, especially since it drops from a pvp dlc and comes in impenetrable for a reason.

Sheervenom and Vicecanon combo is pretty strong

Destyran · July 2017

Because some proc alot more than they should and you can wear 3. Donno if you have seen a stam warden wear redmountain viper and tremour subterranean assault prep stam bird shield invasion ransack into a group to kill 5+ ppl but it shoukdnt be happening. They need to be toned down. But they have to leave monster sets out of it