Why do you think procsets are broken in PvP combat?

Sarato

Don't even answer the question. Procsets aren't the problem lol. "Skill"; gaining most knowledge on what sets to use at a given time, button pressing obv, cancel animations, what combo(s) to use, what rotation to use(basically same *** as combo in a way), what pots to use given what time, your CP level, whether your armor is green, blue, purple, or gold, what food you're using, whether you need heavy or medium or light, what fits YOUR playstyle, POISONS etc etc etc etc. This list goes on. SO many factors. Don't think the game is balanced nor should it be. The person who has acquired the most knowledge on what I've mentioned, "Skill", WILL HAVE THE EASIEST TIME WHETHER THAT BE PVP OR PVE. Some people choose NOT to use procs then complain about procs; this is some false pride bullsh*t. It's in the game, and if it it betters your class USE it, or die and keep complaining and stay mad. There are people on every class who are AMAZING at this game. A player 3 months old isn't going to be as good as Fengrush or Sypher because they took time to gain more knowledge on wtf to do. L2p people. PvP isn't AMAZING right now(I'd say due to the amount of zergs and less soloing/ small grouping, but that's entirely opinion) but it's far better than it was.

Sarato

Just kidding, go ahead and answer the question just please don't say something that can be summarized to "WELL I CANT BEAT A PROCTARD ON MY MAIN CHAR AND IK MY MAIN CHAR IS GODLY CUZ IM LIKE THE BEST IN GAME HURRRHURRHURR"

STEVIL

Proc sets are flawed in that their damage levels are too divorced from the character build. This lets you build the character too much for defense and not lose the most significant parts of your damage.

To fix that all they need to do is split the current proc set damage in hald.

One half scales off the armor level and quality like now.
The other scales off the character's resource pool (stam or mag based on damage type).

This recreates the two-part damage build aspect that most tooltips use (damage plus pool) and makes dumping into health a noticable loss in damage for proc sets just like it is for other dmg effects.

So you can still have high dam proc builds but by putting points into resources offensively.

Imo it is the severe damage without as severe a trade off that is the key issue.

MurderMostFoul

@STEVIL

Nice summation,

Additionally, Viper's Sting in particular is FAR too effective. Either the damage needs to be toned down, or it needs a proc chance like other sets. Adding thousands of damage, guaranteed, on your first hit, plus every 4 secs thereafter is simply too much.

I'm sure ZOS has a wealth of data coming out of BGs. I can only assume they can directly detect the prevalence and over-effectiveness of Viper's Sting and some of the other cheese proc sets.

Lord_Eomer

This is due to 1 CP camapigns and battleground.

There was no QQ before Morrowind..

tunepunk

DPS wise most proc sets seem pretty decently balanced, as above mentioned the burst every 4 seconds from sets like viper's sting, can be hard for some to handle, although it doesn't really do much more dps than any other proc set.

Even a set like Storm Master (Also melee range) probably similar DPS, but spread across every light attack.

Cogo

Nothing wrong with the gear. Its some players skill, that's broken.

Waffennacht

I think anything that bypasses the CD and adds the equivalent damage of an ability is the problem.

DeadlyRecluse

One note: I have no problem fighting a single player using procsets--I have enough HP and mit to live through the first burst, and then I just watch my health a little more than usual for the rest of the fight.

However, I have 5 "philosophical" issues with proc sets as they currently stand:

1. They line up burst without player input. With how certain sets are designed (proccing almost on cooldown relatively consistently), they remove need for a player to combine skills in a way that produces burst. This is almost necessary on some classes (like magDK or Magtemp and skoria), but becomes insane on others (stamNB with 3 proc sets).
2. Some require ZERO build consideration. Tremorscale is despised, but at least it does require using a specific skill (so it isn't available to all builds), Skoria requires DoTs, Iceheart requires crits, Selenes requires melee damage---but Grothdar and Velidreth just proc on damage. Any damage. You can put them on literally any build and they will do there thing--and they both have such high proc chances that you don't even need to really try to keep them proccing on cooldown.
3. Some don't allow enough counterplay. Viper and Red mountain are the biggest offenders here.
4. A few are overtuned in terms of the raw damage.
5. Related to 4, but they don't scale, and so they can add bizarre amounts of damage to builds that should not have them. Dealing damage while being extremely durable should come via clever play and knowledge of one's class/build--not giving up one set for free damage.

The issue is--fixes to one of these issues doesn't necessarily fix the others, and blanket nerfs are a mistake. Proc sets ARE fun to use, especially ones with cool animations--and it would be nice to keep them viable in PvE without making them as frustrating as many people find them in PvP.

ascan7

Sarato wrote: »

Don't think the game is balanced nor should it be. The person who has acquired the most knowledge on what I've mentioned, "Skill", WILL HAVE THE EASIEST TIME WHETHER THAT BE PVP OR PVE.

I don't think you know what balanced means.

Asardes

It's not the proc sets themselves but the bad design. IMO:
- damage should scale to your relevant stats for the type of damage inflicted (they already scale to CP)
- damage overall should be reduced but they should be allowed to crit again, to make them more useful in PvE (at max achievable stats the base damage should be ~20% less than the current tool tip damage but with high crit the overall DPS would be higher)
- add a character cooldown that does not allow two or more to proc at the same time (ex. Viper proc would add up to Selene proc cooldown)

revonine

Because I can run around with barely over 2K weapon damage and absolutely melt people without ever even having to use incap sometimes.

And because I don't have to care about weapon damage I can build with some really good sustain on top of it.

Minno

revonine wrote: »

Because I can run around with barely over 2K weapon damage and absolutely melt people without ever even having to use incap sometimes.

And because I don't have to care about weapon damage I can build with some really good sustain on top of it.

Basically violating their design intent for the resource changes lol.

Kram8ion

I don't think they are broken just over used by builds that would probably be better off with something else but fotm has a large influence
Maybe they should be more armour exclusive and skills too

Sarato

ascan7 wrote: »

Sarato wrote: »

Don't think the game is balanced nor should it be. The person who has acquired the most knowledge on what I've mentioned, "Skill", WILL HAVE THE EASIEST TIME WHETHER THAT BE PVP OR PVE.

I don't think you know what balanced means.

Game like Call of Duty?..Remember I literally just said the game isn't balanced. What are you getting at lol

Sarato

Asardes wrote: »

It's not the proc sets themselves but the bad design. IMO:
- damage should scale to your relevant stats for the type of damage inflicted (they already scale to CP)
- damage overall should be reduced but they should be allowed to crit again, to make them more useful in PvE (at max achievable stats the base damage should be ~20% less than the current tool tip damage but with high crit the overall DPS would be higher)
- add a character cooldown that does not allow two or more to proc at the same time (ex. Viper proc would add up to Selene proc cooldown)

Agree with this

Solariken

STEVIL wrote: »

Proc sets are flawed in that their damage levels are too divorced from the character build. This lets you build the character too much for defense and not lose the most significant parts of your damage.

To fix that all they need to do is split the current proc set damage in hald.

One half scales off the armor level and quality like now.
The other scales off the character's resource pool (stam or mag based on damage type).

This recreates the two-part damage build aspect that most tooltips use (damage plus pool) and makes dumping into health a noticable loss in damage for proc sets just like it is for other dmg effects.

So you can still have high dam proc builds but by putting points into resources offensively.

Imo it is the severe damage without as severe a trade off that is the key issue.

This is a great suggestion. This is also a flaw inherent in weapon and spell damage too - those stats boost damage and healing simultaneously, which is a horrible design.

Shadowshire

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

@STEVIL
....
I'm sure ZOS has a wealth of data coming out of BGs. I can only assume they can directly detect the prevalence and over-effectiveness of Viper's Sting and some of the other cheese proc sets.

ROFLMAO!

Shadowshire

@Sarato, @Cogo, @DeadlyRecluse
IMHO, playing against a character equipped with an armor or weapon Set which has a "proc" that automatically re-occurs after an interval of time without any input from the opponent, or some unpredictable event, is like playing a robot, because the "proc" is executed precisely, repeatedly, and without error, by the ESO host software running on the megaserver.

In comparison, abilities which inflict Damage over Time (DoT) must, at least, be initiated by a player's decisions as to when to use the ability, and as to the target. The same is true for abilities which have an Area of Effect. In both cases, there is a limited amount of time during which the damage is or can be inflicted. Using such an ability is often followed by a "cooldown" period of time during which it cannot be used again.

These "set procs" which players dislike and criticize typically are not affected by external events (e.g., initiated at random, or when the character's Health, Magicka, or Stamina has been expended) and, in fact, cannot be controlled by the player whose character is equipped with the set. Who wants to play a game with a computer as their opponent??

Eyesinthedrk

Skill is exactly the problem. How much skill does it take to ambush and incap from stealth and let your gear do the rest?

Your skill is exactly the same as the thousands of other players running the exact same build.

Malic

This again, OMG your tears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZFzSK1nKHk

DHale

Proc sets don't bother me in the slightest. You either build for damage or sustain or suvavability. If and when proc sets are removed or more than likely made not viable. You will still be killed and you will still ask for nerfs it's what forum warriors do.

lucky_Sage

all saying prcsets are fotm there not its been a year since one tameirel with people running 2 to 3 proc sets that hit as hard as ult
a heavy attacked cancled with a ambush cancled by uncap with a viper and selene and execute still basicly one shots you its not skill when 50% of your dmg is procs
they need a global cd to limit one hitting at a time

Arkangeloski

I honestly dont know why ppl complain about viper a miserable 3k proc set, i hit harder with a light atack with my 2h, in my opinion it telegraphs burst dmg bc it procs every 4 secs so when is time to proc again i know there is an incoming combo "block" the first atacks and now is my turn to input my combo. There is worst sets out there that deal insane amount of dmg and they can proc one after the other And just to give good example of a nasty cheese Sorcs are running around with... "Redmountain" spamming destro abilities lol and RM procced on every single ability hit... 4 times in a row, and you people are complaining about a telegrephic proc? U guys dont know what you are talkin about honestly lol.

GeorgeBlack

1)Proc sets promote minimum atk stats, maximum sustain stats MIN/MAXING which create unkillable targets that can burst 26k dmg at will.

2)Proc sets do wrong to Classes and Weapons that require to slot an ability in the bar, ACTIVATE that ability at RESOURCE cost and TIMING cost in order to deal proc damage (Flames of Oblivion, Deadly Cloak for example).

3)Proc sets do not promote ACTIVE COMBAT that mmorpgs should promote rather PASSIVE damage. On that note Shuffle should be removed from the game because it provides PASSIVE damage avoidance, instead of ACTIVE rolldodge, block, create distance from incoming attack. That should be an ability for stamina nightblades only (I don't play stamNB. I don't meta. No agenda).

4)The massive tooltip damage from proc gear sets cannot realistically be avoided.

PvErs will cry that without procs PvE becomes challenging.
First:PvE can be completed without procs. Stop looking for the ez mode setting in an mmorpg
Second:if nobody had procs nobody would beat you to the ladderboards. Ladderboards should be reset. Are you pro? Do it again without procs. Are you not in the game anymore but still want your old record to remain? Tough luck.
Finally:Did you know that in order to benefit the WHOLE game, proc sets can be removed but the community can also ask for a reduction in mobs/bosses HP by the Devs, in order to compensate for the loss of DPS because of the said removal of proc sets. (Same thing can be done in the possible scenario of the removal of bonus dps from max stamina max magika. Same thing can be done in the possible senario of fixing Light heavy attack interrupt clipping).

PvPrs will not cry about the removal of proc sets because they would be too embarrashed to declare that they depent on proc sets. Nah who are we kidding. Of course they will cry about it shamelessly.

Lastly: the counter argument against blanket nerf.
ZOS should REMOVE Selene, Tremorscale, Viper, Vicious Death and other overperforming DAMAGE proc sets.

GeorgeBlack

Not sure if you are posting to say that RM is an OP proc or if you are posting to show us your combat prowess while discrediting our claim that procs are bad for the game by calling us clueless.

Arkangeloski wrote: »

I honestly dont know why ppl complain about viper a miserable 3k proc set, i hit harder with a light atack with my 2h, in my opinion it telegraphs burst dmg bc it procs every 4 secs so when is time to proc again i know there is an incoming combo "block" the first atacks and now is my turn to input my combo. There is worst sets out there that deal insane amount of dmg and they can proc one after the other And just to give good example of a nasty cheese Sorcs are running around with... "Redmountain" spamming destro abilities lol and RM procced on every single ability hit... 4 times in a row, and you people are complaining about a telegrephic proc? U guys dont know what you are talkin about honestly lol.

Timeraider

Proc sets are balanced around max CP, thats why they are hated in a no-cp area

Mr_Nobody

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

@STEVIL

Nice summation,

Additionally, Viper's Sting in particular is FAR too effective. Either the damage needs to be toned down, or it needs a proc chance like other sets. Adding thousands of damage, guaranteed, on your first hit, plus every 4 secs thereafter is simply too much.

I'm sure ZOS has a wealth of data coming out of BGs. I can only assume they can directly detect the prevalence and over-effectiveness of Viper's Sting and some of the other cheese proc sets.

They do have the data.

They dont have competent data analysts / scientists to even understand whats going on.

EnOeZ

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

@STEVIL

Nice summation,

Additionally, Viper's Sting in particular is FAR too effective. Either the damage needs to be toned down, or it needs a proc chance like other sets. Adding thousands of damage, guaranteed, on your first hit, plus every 4 secs thereafter is simply too much.

I'm sure ZOS has a wealth of data coming out of BGs. I can only assume they can directly detect the prevalence and over-effectiveness of Viper's Sting and some of the other cheese proc sets.

They do have the data.

They dont have competent data analysts / scientists to even understand whats going on.

I once asked them to follow an open data policy.
It would be the most beneficial thing for them and their "owners" (actionaries) in the long run.
Still waiting

For this issue and mant other balance-related ones.

Sarato

Malic wrote: »

This again, OMG your tears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZFzSK1nKHk

ye, writing a paragraph that took a couple minutes is crying lol grow up

Sarato

A lot of salt. Nice! I could say something stupid like MagDKs are unkillable but yknow.. that's a matter of skill