Why do you think procsets are broken in PvP combat?

Sarato

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Sarato wrote: »

@Mangeli200194 LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I know im such a *** for using that cheesy procset but im Really fond of it :-D

haha use it by all means bro all classes should be able to tank and deal some dps

IlCanis_LupuslI

Sarato wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Sarato wrote: »

@Mangeli200194 LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I know im such a *** for using that cheesy procset but im Really fond of it :-D

haha use it by all means bro all classes should be able to tank and deal some dps

I calculated that it gives me about 13k resources back, and since I use magica for self heals(Werwolf build) the magica, stamina or health you get is really handy, plus I like using it, it's a very old set, never nerfed, never op. Plus no-one can complain about it beeing op/broken

Sarato

QuebraRegra wrote: »

not all procsets are broke in PVP. The amount of VIPER in PVP is an indication that something is definitely wrong.

I left my Baharahs Curse on in PVP the other day.. it's a procset, but I'm pretty sure no one saw it in their death feed (or maybe they did?).

People use it because it's the easiest to farm. FG1/FG2 are some of the easiest dungeons in the game.
Damn that Baharahs set deals 5.9k mag in within a span of 5 seconds and reduces enemy speed by 70%, and heals you for 100% of the mag dmg done. Would love to use this on a magblade troll build lol

Sarato

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Sarato wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Sarato wrote: »

@Mangeli200194 LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I know im such a *** for using that cheesy procset but im Really fond of it :-D

haha use it by all means bro all classes should be able to tank and deal some dps

I calculated that it gives me about 13k resources back, and since I use magica for self heals(Werwolf build) the magica, stamina or health you get is really handy, plus I like using it, it's a very old set, never nerfed, never op. Plus no-one can complain about it beeing op/broken

escoosh me zos can u nerf dish kid plesh cush i cant kill him! his procs are too fakn strung! oh man u nerf 2 mawch! no he 2 eashi 2 kill. plz balanch da game!.......ZOS whysh u balance him now im tooweak agn! PROCSETSS UGH!!!!!

IlCanis_LupuslI

Engine Guardian Op plz nerf asap :-D

Ghost-Shot

Because they require no skill to play with and can't be countered.

Artis

Because they require no skill and I don't see the counter. If you can't survive just a couple of seconds with all defense/heals up - that's a problem.

Sarato

@Ghost-Shot
@Artis

Ghost, bro you have a magdk and a magsorc and youre dying to procs? lmao try this on ur magdk; skoria, seducer, bloodthorn

Artis what proc sets do you have trouble with, what your class and are you mag or stam. Get"Miat's PVP Alerts" this can literally decide who wins the battle since youre saying you get toppling charged or some *** then insta killed.

Ghost-Shot

Sarato wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
@Artis

Ghost, bro you have a magdk and a magsorc and youre dying to procs? lmao try this on ur magdk; skoria, seducer, bloodthorn

Artis what proc sets do you have trouble with, what your class and are you mag or stam. Get"Miat's PVP Alerts" this can literally decide who wins the battle since youre saying you get toppling charged or some *** then insta killed.

I'm well aware of how to play a mag DK, thanks though, and after rereading my post I don't see where I said I'm dying to procs, that doesn't change the fact that they are dumb and they are there to be a crutch for bads.

Sarato

@Ghost-Shot You're not dying from procs? Ok so then you must be countering them somehow am I wrong?

Ghost-Shot

Sarato wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot You're not dying from procs? Ok so then you must be countering them somehow am I wrong?

Nope, its all damage that you can't do anything about besides heal, that is not good play. They basically give you extra abilities happening outside of your gcd.

Sarato

@Ghost-Shot So no class(or whatever you're referring to, just gonna assume all classes since nothing precise was stated) cannot counter procs, and their only option is to heal? There are 0 mag builds that can counter procs? Literally, the only option available is to heal?

Ghost-Shot

Sarato wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot So no class(or whatever you're referring to, just gonna assume all classes since nothing precise was stated) cannot counter procs, and their only option is to heal? There are 0 mag builds that can counter procs? Literally, the only option available is to heal?

LOL I see what you're doing here, you are trying to spin this like proc sets aren't for bad players, of course you can shield/heal, that doesn't change the fact that if you stack procs you get anywhere from 1-3 extra abilities per gcd. Proc sets are for bad players, plain and simple.

Gan Xing

Sarato wrote: »

Eyesinthedrk wrote: »

Skill is exactly the problem. How much skill does it take to ambush and incap from stealth and let your gear do the rest?

Your skill is exactly the same as the thousands of other players running the exact same build.

1. Some procs don't always proc. 2. Skill level is not the same, try to 1v1(Ex. ProcSorc vs Procblade), it's not always procs first. It's who dodge rolls first or blocks, and reading what your opponents rotation is and learning to counter. If you know a nightblade will ambush->incap 90% of the time, why the **** aren't you blocking?---> There's an addon that tells you on your screen when an enemy is about to do something(example ambushing AND it's not instant buddy, it actually takes time to cast it! Suprise!). Why aren't you using it? There's so much more knowledge you don't know about that's leading you to whine about procsets lmao.

You mean Miats? the one that also tells you when someone is heavy attacking you? That is a cheat in it's own way.

I've died many times, and have killed many times because of Vipers. Some players even used the throwing dagger to proc vipers (yes it happened). I know how to survive a burst, but sometimes (especially with a newish character), I don't get the chance to get off my mount before getting rolled by a ganker. Tho they are just doing their job, so I don't blame them. It is a matter of entire groups running the high survivability setups + Viper that enrages people.

Sarato

@Gan Xing Yeah I guess it's a "cheat" but if it's a "cheat" I won't get banned or penalized for then I'll use it; if it's anything severe maybe we could let the devs know? I love how you understand being ganked on a horse should have a low chance of survival, a lot of people dont like to comprehend that if theyre not buffed etc and cannot cancel falling off a horse animation then they will die, just as it is for every single player.

Gan Xing

Devs did address it in a previous patch, but when BG came out, players discovered that Miats was capable of being used in BG. Not sure if it can be used in Cyrodiil still.

Sarato

@Gan Xing Yes, the Xv1ers do like to spread trouble lol, people rage and check their death recap and quickly blame it on anyting proc b/w the community loves to make it out as "cheese" or some other stupid ***. They forget to realize it was a Xv1 not a 1v1

Sarato

@Ghost-Shot

"LOL I see what you're doing here, you are trying to spin this like proc sets aren't for bad players, of course you can shield/heal, that doesn't change the fact that if you stack procs you get anywhere from 1-3 extra abilities per gcd. Proc sets are for bad players, plain and simple"-You

Im not flipping ***. Allow me to answer for you; please tell me, when did I say proc sets aren't for bad players? You can't. Yes obviously, you can shield/heal; but you're not answering my question "Literally, the only option available is to heal?"(You refuse to answer this because you know this is what you're saying and it sounds silly ). Procs give 1-3 extra abilities per gcd yet you say you do not die from them. Yet you also say you cannot counter them. So if you aren't dying from them nor can you counter them given your PERSONAL experiences in combat, how the **** are procsets the problem?


Ok let me repeat what you're literally saying. You say there is NO counter to proc sets("Because they require no skill to play with and can't be countered"(You). You imply proc users cannot be killed("killed" is implied b/c you say when you fight in your personal experiences all you can f***ing do is heal and you cant counter them soooo?..) lmao. How am I to understand wtf you're saying lmao. Stop trying to bash me personally saying sh** like "you are trying to spin this like proc sets aren't for bad players" and "Proc sets are for bad players, plain and simple." Ok cool, I already know your opinion and never disagreed; and youve stated it already bro, I dont give. Answer my questions.

Sarato

I'm either being trolled or you're actually contradicting yourself.

Ghost-Shot

Sarato wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot

"LOL I see what you're doing here, you are trying to spin this like proc sets aren't for bad players, of course you can shield/heal, that doesn't change the fact that if you stack procs you get anywhere from 1-3 extra abilities per gcd. Proc sets are for bad players, plain and simple"-You

Im not flipping ***. Allow me to answer for you; please tell me, when did I say proc sets aren't for bad players? You can't. Yes obviously, you can shield/heal; but you're not answering my question "Literally, the only option available is to heal?"(You refuse to answer this because you know this is what you're saying and it sounds silly ). Procs give 1-3 extra abilities per gcd yet you say you do not die from them. Yet you also say you cannot counter them. So if you aren't dying from them nor can you counter them given your PERSONAL experiences in combat, how the **** are procsets the problem?


Ok let me repeat what you're literally saying. You say there is NO counter to proc sets("Because they require no skill to play with and can't be countered"(You). You imply proc users cannot be killed("killed" is implied b/c you say when you fight in your personal experiences all you can f***ing do is heal and you cant counter them soooo?..) lmao. How am I to understand wtf you're saying lmao. Stop trying to bash me personally saying sh** like "you are trying to spin this like proc sets aren't for bad players" and "Proc sets are for bad players, plain and simple." Ok cool, I already know your opinion and never disagreed; and youve stated it already bro, I dont give. Answer my questions.

Ok clearly I need to be more specific. I do not die to every potato that equips three proc sets, but that does not mean I have never died to procs, anyone who tells you they haven't is either lying or has never PvP'd before. I'm not answering your questions because I'm not really sure what you are asking, not sure if English is a second language for you but these posts are pretty hard to follow lol.

To be clear, you can't possibly know when to block a proc, you can't interrupt a proc, and as far as I know you can't dodge a proc, therefore there are not counters to procs.

Nutshotz

I for one have no issue with proc sets or with shuffle / double take. What I do have an issue with is someone that's able to get a matter of xyz skills to land before you have even time to react and than they say they're pro at animation canceling. Lol. Or my favorite. The shuffle / roll dodge bug. How a player can sit still and dodge / miss all attacks coming at him or her.

And everyone here is crying about proc sets. Come on people. Look outside the box for once.

Beardimus

Weopons & skills should kill people not armour auto popping off stuff. It's dull.

Sarato

@Ghost-Shot
1.I will use easier format for your better understanding


2.You can dodge veli tremor selene


3.My questions are above, look for these "?" and if it's still too hard to grasp then perhaps reading comprehension classes would be beneficial, idk what else to tell you


4.A PvP addon helps you know when an enemy is casting snipe, ambush, toppling etc. Called Miat's PvP Alert.


5.In cases where they're running something like widowmaker which uses poisons to proc. its easy to observe if the enemy player has poisons on his weaps. and if theyre about to gap close or some charge up ability, the addon I mentioned above helps supports in this manner. While using the addon one way to counter: [cast shield or heal->cancel animation w/block and stay in block or tele out or dodge roll or w.e]


6.Being ganked by proc, they will have the advantage in these situations so most cases you cant avoid it(If it does manage 2 proc by the time you're up). And you're right that you cannot interupt procs thatd be silly.


Not knowing everything from "2." to "6." listed ABOVE is an l2p issue.

Sarato

@Beardimus Yeah man screw skoria ! am I right? !










(sarcasm)

Jawasa

Gl dodging selen/veli when you are cc'ed. Most magicka builds cant dodge and block more then for a few seconds or they cant afford cc break. Fact is procs make it to easy to get kills without even using combos. Just using ambush can take 50% of a players health if you get a lucky selen proc with the viper.

cpuScientist

Selene Veli Valkyn are for the most part fine. The invisible damage sets are not. Viper, red mountain, Widowmaker. These sets need to be drastically changed or removed.

For those saying to rely on Miats. First off that's terrible and you are terrible for using it. Secondly, console players do not have access to that.

But ZOS has said they will be looked at, and all we can do now is give an opinion and wait and see.

GeorgeBlack

Kilandros wrote: »

The reason proc builds have reemerged is because they aren't constrained by needing to balance damage/sustain. On a non-proc Stamina build, you need to find the proper balance between Weapon Damage and Recovery--you can't just stack Weapon Damage like you used to.

But because proc sets are not influenced by Weapon Damage, and because they can't crit, people figured out that you can put together 3 proc sets and then build entirely for sustain. Proc builds don't need to worry about balance in their builds because neither having a high nor low Weapon Damage will affect their damage in any meaningful way.

So it becomes too easy for triple-proc builds to achieve the best of both worlds: They have high burst damage thanks to procs, and they have very high sustain thanks to not having to worry about sinking stats into Weapon Damage or Weapon Crit.

That's really the problem with proc sets. Adding a global cooldown to proc sets would solve this problem because you could not make these builds operate (as) effectively with only 1 proc. People would then need to build for more damage into their sustained attacks like Dizzying Swing etc.

People can't deny that. @ZOS cannot deny that.
Proc sets need to be worked on.

Xvorg

Sarato wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Sarato wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Proc sets promote minimum atk stats, maximum sustain stats MIN/MAXING which create unkillable targets that can burst 26k dmg at will.

2)Proc sets do wrong to Classes and Weapons that require to slot an ability in the bar, ACTIVATE that ability at RESOURCE cost and TIMING cost in order to deal proc damage (Flames of Oblivion, Deadly Cloak for example).

3)Proc sets do not promote ACTIVE COMBAT that mmorpgs should promote rather PASSIVE damage. On that note Shuffle should be removed from the game because it provides PASSIVE damage avoidance, instead of ACTIVE rolldodge, block, create distance from incoming attack. That should be an ability for stamina nightblades only (I don't play stamNB. I don't meta. No agenda).

4)The massive tooltip damage from proc gear sets cannot realistically be avoided.

PvErs will cry that without procs PvE becomes challenging.
First:PvE can be completed without procs. Stop looking for the ez mode setting in an mmorpg
Second:if nobody had procs nobody would beat you to the ladderboards. Ladderboards should be reset. Are you pro? Do it again without procs. Are you not in the game anymore but still want your old record to remain? Tough luck.
Finally:Did you know that in order to benefit the WHOLE game, proc sets can be removed but the community can also ask for a reduction in mobs/bosses HP by the Devs, in order to compensate for the loss of DPS because of the said removal of proc sets. (Same thing can be done in the possible scenario of the removal of bonus dps from max stamina max magika. Same thing can be done in the possible senario of fixing Light heavy attack interrupt clipping).

PvPrs will not cry about the removal of proc sets because they would be too embarrashed to declare that they depent on proc sets. Nah who are we kidding. Of course they will cry about it shamelessly.

Lastly: the counter argument against blanket nerf.
ZOS should REMOVE Selene, Tremorscale, Viper, Vicious Death and other overperforming DAMAGE proc sets.

If they remove these proc sets, what happens to dps on stam classes? I love your threads and responses on the "ideal" combat system but it's not going to happen bro.

They should git gud and learn to play without procs : D
I am a stamDK no meta.

On a serious note we should NOT look at one issue separately if we want to achieve a better combat. We should take in considerstion all aspects of combat (without "what about PvE". Challenges to PvE due to loss of DPS can be addressed by the Developers by reducing mob/bosses HP to achieve desired balance).
That is why ZOS makes a mess of things all the time. They attack the "issue of the month" with nerfs or boosts instead of combining a nerf to proc with a nerf to heal/shield stack. A boost to WD/SP with a removal of dps bonus to max stamina max magika (hybrid playstyle solution - PvE, PvP)

@ZOS please don't look at an issue without connecting all the dots.

With your logic, ok git gud and learn how to play against people with procs lmao. Why aren't you wearing the meta build, perhaps maybe other "meta" builds? Maybe this is why you're having trouble. I fight StamDKs all the f***ing time and they eat my procs and its a good fight bro. If they can do it you can do it.

You don't git gud playing against proctards, you git stupid (maybe another proctard) or you stop playing. I found the later the best option

So enjoy your no brainer game

Gothren

IMO I think for pvp you should be allowed only one proc set and not be able to stack multiple.

Artis

Sarato wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
@Artis

Ghost, bro you have a magdk and a magsorc and youre dying to procs? lmao try this on ur magdk; skoria, seducer, bloodthorn

Artis what proc sets do you have trouble with, what your class and are you mag or stam. Get"Miat's PVP Alerts" this can literally decide who wins the battle since youre saying you get toppling charged or some *** then insta killed.

@Sarato

MNB. Miat's not gonna help, since I'm not even talking about gankers. Simple attack spam in an in your face situation is enough.

If you get caught without stam roll dodge - which is easy to do: they can just CC you once to make you break it - that's it. With all heals and defensive buffs up - SS+refreshing path+mutagen+healing ward+degeneration etc (don't remember if resto ulti was up too) simple spam of surprise attack proccing viper and selene is enough to kill before I'm able to move.

Or had another episode where I was trying to get away from this guy with tremorscale. It's impossible with all those gapclosers, and whenever I try to fight back - he literally just spams 1 button, too, and I die. That's again with all heals and defense up.

I don't think it's balanced.