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[Hypothetical] What would happen if there WERE a global AH?
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danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?
You are missing the point. The point is that IF a global AH was introduced in parallel to the existing system, buyers would naturally move there. Easier searching, lower prices, constantly replenishing availability. All the things that elitist sellers do not want.
I'm not missing anything. Your theory of how it would work out IF it happened is based on assumptions you can't possibly know for sure.
That said, he did suggest running both systems concurrently. It doesn't matter if he's right or not on his assumption, the market would decide which system it prefers. The only people I see benefiting under the current system are those lucky enough to be in one of the monopolies.
There is no monopoly. Trading guilds can't even control the prices of their own members let alone what other guilds are doing with their traders.
I've heard about guild leaders who threaten to kick people who price their wares to low. Price inflation is a very real thing in the current system.1 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?
You are missing the point. The point is that IF a global AH was introduced in parallel to the existing system, buyers would naturally move there. Easier searching, lower prices, constantly replenishing availability. All the things that elitist sellers do not want.
I'm not missing anything. Your theory of how it would work out IF it happened is based on assumptions you can't possibly know for sure.
That said, he did suggest running both systems concurrently. It doesn't matter if he's right or not on his assumption, the market would decide which system it prefers. The only people I see benefiting under the current system are those lucky enough to be in one of the monopolies.
There is no monopoly. Trading guilds can't even control the prices of their own members let alone what other guilds are doing with their traders.
I've heard about guild leaders who threaten to kick people who price their wares to low. Price inflation is a very real thing in the current system.
No it's not.
All price curves in this game have been downward curves with the exception of a few blips (like improvers go up when new sets come out and the meta changes, and then they normalize again.).
When was the last time you bought a green recipe that's not used for a writ for more than 30g, for example? A blue recipe for more than 1000g? For me, that was over a year ago.
The only exceptions are items where the supply was temporary. For example, pieces of sets that used to be BoE and are now BoP, or items from the events. In those cases the prices will go up as long as there is a perceived value to them.The Moot Councillor0 -
Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »We would still have to put up with that crappy store UI. Nothing like scrolling through 1000s of pages looking for things because a decent search ui is to much for Zos.
Yeah but travelling around from place to place getting stuck in loading screens having to rescroll through countless pages of garbage on the guild traders is ok.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »TL;DR
My intention in starting this thread was to create a Thought Experiment that could be used to show that the argument that "The Majority" of players prefer the current guild-trader system over the concept of an Open Global Auction House is baseless and illogical.
--- --- --- --- --- ---
Having read through the entire thread and replied to what I could (given time constraints), I would now love to re-write that first original post in its entirety, because I wish I could have organized my thinking better, but such is the way of developing forum discussions. In the coming days I will unfortunately not have too much time to read the forums, so I am going to leave this thread with the following parting thoughts.
My initial impulse in creating this thread was NOT to further hash out the pros and cons of a Global Auction House vs. the current guild-trader system. The purpose was much more narrow: I wanted to defeat the argument that supporters of the guild-trader system often use on the forums, that the "majority of players" prefer the current system. This argument is a thought-terminating cliché rooted in Perception Bias that has no basis in fact or logic. The dozens, perhaps even hundreds of people who have voiced their support for the current system in forum discussions in no way constitute a representative sample of ESO's active-player-population, the vast majority of which do not post on the forums.
To defeat this argument, in hopes that better arguments and discussions would ensue, I proposed this Thought Experiment first and foremost for the consideration of those players who DO support the guild-trader system. I wanted to show that if we could reasonably envision that people would, in this hypothetical scenario, move away from the current system (by choice) and embrace a Global Auction House, with all its pitfalls and problems which I admit are there, then that would mean that the majority in fact does not favour the current system, however unwise and detrimental to the game's economy that may be. The in-game majority would gravitate to the new GAH, and those who do prefer the older system would do so as well, out of necessity.
The discussion that ensued here over the merits and detriments of an open GAH are all valid and relevant. Market cornering, some prices plummeting while others skyrocket, problems with server load and many other issues are all reasonable concerns. In fact, although I think the current system is terrible, I am not really a supporter for the implementation of an open GAH, as I believe the change-over would cause too many problems.
But I detest the claim that "the majority" wants it the way it is, because that claim is baseless and illogical.
Intent is one thing but the design of your original post was another as you seem to understand.
Further, you added to the conversation with your illogical and baseless support of a GAH. Ironically, it goes both ways as nothing you said can be substantiated and was pretty much out of emotion and desire for something you are more familiar with, not any facts or real information.
You cannot say anything about what the majority wants, you have no insight into that information.
Further, the hypothetical question and any discussion that comes from it is pointless and meaningless. Moot on arrival and a veiled attempt at just another thread from someone wanting a GAH that meets resistance.
1. Case in point, in is you make the claim in your OP that the silent majority will make their voices heard by selling commondities in an open market. Seemingly making a claim that the majority would prefer a GAH. You CANNOT support this claim. It is baseless and certainly illogical to think that you are special and have insight into what the greater community wants. You have also, repeatedly, refused to reply to my comments pointing out that you are making assumptions throughout this entire thread and posting them as facts. You ignore it because you know it is true.
2. Creating a new thread asking the same question is so pointless. Adding a poll that is statistically only for entertainment is pointless since the information from it is worthless. BTW, That statement about the poll is not baseless and holds sound logic.
@Kurkikohtaus
Edited by idk on June 24, 2017 3:55PM0 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Okay what about a search npc?
You type in the item you want and it lists all the traders where you can find it but not its price
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Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »You cannot say anything about what the majority wants, you have no insight into that information.
ALSOIt is baseless and certainly illogical to think that you are special and have insight into what the greater community wants. You have also, repeatedly, refused to reply to my comments pointing out that you are making assumptions throughout this entire thread and posting them as facts.
Ok, back for one last response (for now).
Yes, I am making an assumption, a hypothesis actually, that the tens of thousands of people who currently do not participate in active trading would do so in an open GAH system. It is this hypothesis to which I was hoping people would react in this thread. Given the convenience constraints of the current system, my guess was that people who don't currently trade as buyers or sellers would give an open GAH system a try.
Yes, this is an assumption, one that I forward for discussion.
A parallel:
If the two systems co-existed, would people who Favour the current guild-trader system not immediately attempt to participate in the open one as well? In order to make a lot of gold from a previously untapped population who may now be experimenting with a new system?
I know this argument is technically a fallacy in that it "appeals to common sense" but alas, that is what I think it is. Common sense. An open system is (hypothetically) implemented, people who didn't use the old one give it a try and people who DID use the old one jump on board in order to make gold from a previously untapped population. I believe that over time, this would lead to the extinction of the guild-trader system.
Am I making assumptions about the behaviour of the masses? Yes. But I hope you can agree that there is a certain logical flow to my reasoning, based on recurring patterns in games, business and human nature.
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Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This thread still going? Yikes.
I 100% don't want a AH if that helps.
Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0 -
Sixsixsix161✭✭✭I have noticed that trying to sell mats in this game doesn't work (in general chat, not trade guilds).
In general chat, I've tried to sell ore, high ore, and that ore that looks red (had 265 pieces, no buyers), and other mats. So, now, I find mats and sell them to NPC merchants. It's not worth my time to sit in one place for, maybe hours, trying to sell stuff that no one wants.
This is a difference from when I played this game back in 2015, when I could sell ice cubes to an eskimo.
I would welcome a global AH (gold), as long as it is not the disaster that Blizzard introduced in D3 (Real Money AH), and tried running parallel to their Gold AH. And to make matters worse, they closed down both AH instead of only the Real Money AH. I made a comfortable living in WoW, always enough money to put my characters in nice armor whenever they leveled up. I could have made millions, but settled for what I needed.
Anyway, in the beginning you probably would see some strange prices, but eventually, it would settle down like it does in the real world. The reason is Supply and Demand would balance the scales.
And, if you don't like an AH, you don't have to use it.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »You cannot say anything about what the majority wants, you have no insight into that information.
ALSOIt is baseless and certainly illogical to think that you are special and have insight into what the greater community wants. You have also, repeatedly, refused to reply to my comments pointing out that you are making assumptions throughout this entire thread and posting them as facts.
Ok, back for one last response (for now).
Yes, I am making an assumption, a hypothesis actually, that the tens of thousands of people who currently do not participate in active trading would do so in an open GAH system. It is this hypothesis to which I was hoping people would react in this thread. Given the convenience constraints of the current system, my guess was that people who don't currently trade as buyers or sellers would give an open GAH system a try.
Yes, this is an assumption, one that I forward for discussion.
A parallel:
If the two systems co-existed, would people who Favour the current guild-trader system not immediately attempt to participate in the open one as well? In order to make a lot of gold from a previously untapped population who may now be experimenting with a new system?
I know this argument is technically a fallacy in that it "appeals to common sense" but alas, that is what I think it is. Common sense. An open system is (hypothetically) implemented, people who didn't use the old one give it a try and people who DID use the old one jump on board in order to make gold from a previously untapped population. I believe that over time, this would lead to the extinction of the guild-trader system.
Am I making assumptions about the behaviour of the masses? Yes. But I hope you can agree that there is a certain logical flow to my reasoning, based on recurring patterns in games, business and human nature.Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »You cannot say anything about what the majority wants, you have no insight into that information.
ALSOIt is baseless and certainly illogical to think that you are special and have insight into what the greater community wants. You have also, repeatedly, refused to reply to my comments pointing out that you are making assumptions throughout this entire thread and posting them as facts.
Ok, back for one last response (for now).
Yes, I am making an assumption, a hypothesis actually, that the tens of thousands of people who currently do not participate in active trading would do so in an open GAH system. It is this hypothesis to which I was hoping people would react in this thread. Given the convenience constraints of the current system, my guess was that people who don't currently trade as buyers or sellers would give an open GAH system a try.
Yes, this is an assumption, one that I forward for discussion.
A parallel:
If the two systems co-existed, would people who Favour the current guild-trader system not immediately attempt to participate in the open one as well? In order to make a lot of gold from a previously untapped population who may now be experimenting with a new system?
I know this argument is technically a fallacy in that it "appeals to common sense" but alas, that is what I think it is. Common sense. An open system is (hypothetically) implemented, people who didn't use the old one give it a try and people who DID use the old one jump on board in order to make gold from a previously untapped population. I believe that over time, this would lead to the extinction of the guild-trader system.
Am I making assumptions about the behaviour of the masses? Yes. But I hope you can agree that there is a certain logical flow to my reasoning, based on recurring patterns in games, business and human nature.
At the very best there is as much logical flow to your thoughts as those you have condemned in this thread as baseless and illogical.
You even state your making assumptions but then make other assumptions based on those assumptions as though that somehow backs your "hypothesis.
It's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭grim_tactics wrote: »I'd be mad that everything I list will just be undercut by everyone else and then stop selling.
Or it would finally sell cause then the whole game will have some sort of money income, cause the guild trader's only have enough room for 15% of the entire game mostly?2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?
You are missing the point. The point is that IF a global AH was introduced in parallel to the existing system, buyers would naturally move there. Easier searching, lower prices, constantly replenishing availability. All the things that elitist sellers do not want.
I'm not missing anything. Your theory of how it would work out IF it happened is based on assumptions you can't possibly know for sure.
That said, he did suggest running both systems concurrently. It doesn't matter if he's right or not on his assumption, the market would decide which system it prefers. The only people I see benefiting under the current system are those lucky enough to be in one of the monopolies.
There is no monopoly. Trading guilds can't even control the prices of their own members let alone what other guilds are doing with their traders.
I've heard about guild leaders who threaten to kick people who price their wares to low. Price inflation is a very real thing in the current system.
And I've heard of players kicking party members from vet trials, so they can invite their buddies in and let them have the completion credit. I mean, clearly, that's a BS story, that may have happened once from Maw, but I heard about it, so it must be true, right?
I've heard about a trade guild that would invite people, charge 10k, as a joining fee, then almost immediately kick them. So, that must be completely true as well. Right?
Or, you know, people who don't like a system will search for fault, and then play up an event as singular behavior. I've seen people kicked from guilds for failing to meet sales quotas. That's not, they didn't charge enough for their stuff, just, that they didn't sell enough. In fact, I think I may have been kicked once for that, when a guild's quota got changed while I was gone for a couple days, and my old pattern of selling recipes didn't quite cover it.0 -
Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭@Giles.floydub17_ESOIt's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.
Stating on the forums that "the Majority" of players like the system as it is, is at best a very strong application of perception bias, not taking into account the fact that those that voice their opinions here are but a sliver of the total game population and therefore cannot by definition constitute a majority. THAT is baseless.
Speculating that a large portion of the player population would indeed try out a new GAH system and trying to predict where that would lead is indeed an assumption, but a logical one.
If you cannot make this distinction, then I am afraid we will never find common ground.1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ANGEL_BtVS wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?
You are missing the point. The point is that IF a global AH was introduced in parallel to the existing system, buyers would naturally move there. Easier searching, lower prices, constantly replenishing availability. All the things that elitist sellers do not want.
I'm not missing anything. Your theory of how it would work out IF it happened is based on assumptions you can't possibly know for sure.
That said, he did suggest running both systems concurrently. It doesn't matter if he's right or not on his assumption, the market would decide which system it prefers. The only people I see benefiting under the current system are those lucky enough to be in one of the monopolies.
Two competing systems can be forced to run concurrently, but markets always win.
Markets have immutable laws, one of them is they are self-optimizing, that is, they tend to reduce the bid/ask spread.
What you get is that an AH system is massively larger and liquid (big => economy of scale) than a guild based one, by 2-3 months everyone would be on the AH and trading guilds would just die.
They would still be an option, but nobody would use them.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOIt's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.
Stating on the forums that "the Majority" of players like the system as it is, is at best a very strong application of perception bias, not taking into account the fact that those that voice their opinions here are but a sliver of the total game population and therefore cannot by definition constitute a majority. THAT is baseless.
Speculating that a large portion of the player population would indeed try out a new GAH system and trying to predict where that would lead is indeed an assumption, but a logical one.
If you cannot make this distinction, then I am afraid we will never find common ground.
@Kurkikohtaus
You see, that point you made is irrelevant. We have a very robust in game economy with a very successful guild trader system with room for more people which is what I have been saying in this thread since early yesterday at least.
One of the points I have been attempting to make is we have a great system. It is really here to stay. I say this because I really do not think you are about a discussion about your hypothesis. I think you are merely making a veiled attempt to try to bring about a global auction house. If that is the case, great, but it is not going to happen.
Most certainly Zos will not have two systems in the same game. Just not going to happen.
EDIT: I will be leaving this conversation since you are merely stating the same thing over an over. It is really pointless for me to continue since I really have nothing to lose or gain.Edited by idk on June 25, 2017 6:52AM2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »We would still have to put up with that crappy store UI. Nothing like scrolling through 1000s of pages looking for things because a decent search ui is to much for Zos.
Yeah but travelling around from place to place getting stuck in loading screens having to rescroll through countless pages of garbage on the guild traders is ok.
Or, you could use an addon that posts the various guild traders wares all together on its website...Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOIt's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.
Stating on the forums that "the Majority" of players like the system as it is, is at best a very strong application of perception bias, not taking into account the fact that those that voice their opinions here are but a sliver of the total game population and therefore cannot by definition constitute a majority. THAT is baseless.
Speculating that a large portion of the player population would indeed try out a new GAH system and trying to predict where that would lead is indeed an assumption, but a logical one.
If you cannot make this distinction, then I am afraid we will never find common ground.
Majority of players have played enough MMOs to understand what is good and bad about both systems.
AHs are good for large guilds and big traders and also help gold sellers immensely.
There are several similarities to real life markets implementations, there are book since at least 2001 that explain markets microstructure in depth (written by a former USA SEC former chief none the less).Edited by Vahrokh on June 25, 2017 6:53AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
lasertooth✭✭✭✭✭Forget the auction house. I want an app where I can list stuff for sale and shop at guild traders from my iPhone while I'm at work. Like an elite personal assistant. So when I get home, I can just play, keep all my loot in the bank until the next day to list, then rinse and repeat.
And I want to be able to view a "price per unit", like in the grocery stores in real life. I'm tired of having to bust out the calculator to see if that random 139 pitch for 28.5k is a good deal.
Sigh. This one dreams, she does. Lol.Lasertooth
GM of ESO Grand Designs, Grand Designs Too, and Grand Designs Trinity
Xbox/NA1 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »@Giles.floydub17_ESOIt's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.
Stating on the forums that "the Majority" of players like the system as it is, is at best a very strong application of perception bias, not taking into account the fact that those that voice their opinions here are but a sliver of the total game population and therefore cannot by definition constitute a majority. THAT is baseless.
Speculating that a large portion of the player population would indeed try out a new GAH system and trying to predict where that would lead is indeed an assumption, but a logical one.
If you cannot make this distinction, then I am afraid we will never find common ground.
Majority of players have played enough MMOs to understand what is good and bad about both systems.
AHs are good for large guilds and big traders and also help gold sellers immensely.
There are several similarities to real life markets implementations, there are book since at least 2001 that explain markets microstructure in depth (written by a former USA SEC former chief none the less).
You do realize the bots still sell gold in this game as well, they actually join trading guilds as well I noticed to get large sums of currency and still sell to the public for real $. No matter what system it is for an online game if its BoE, there will be a market for IRL transactions no matter how bad the economy is set up to be.
I realized ESO tried something different but the entirety of MMO's to date all have current server wide auction houses, which in turn work best for online players especially for those that can only be on for a couple hours a day.0 -
Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »One of the points I have been attempting to make is we have a great system. It is really here to stay. I say this because I really do not think you are about a discussion about your hypothesis. I think you are merely making a veiled attempt to try to bring about a global auction house. If that is the case, great, but it is not going to happen.
Absolutely true, and absolutely false.
I agree 100% that there will NEVER be any sort of open GAH in this game, concurrent or exclusive to the guild-trader system, which is here to stay. I have NO ILLUSIONS that this thread or any other thread / argumentation would convince ZOS to implement such a system.
Where you are wrong is that because I realize this, this thread is not a "veiled attempt to convince ZOS to bring about a GAH." This thread is an attempt to show those who favour guild-traders and who think they are in the majority that this system would come tumbling down in a month at the most if a GAH were in fact introduced. Not only because it would open up trading to everybody equally, but because I believe that those same people who now enjoy profiting from guild trading would move over to the GAH to try to maximise their profit.
Yes, this is an assumption. I am trying to predict consumer trends. It is done by businesses and individuals every day.
1 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But that ^ argument proves nothing @Kurkikohtaus
If Maelstorm Weopons were available at the Golden would as many people still do vMSA over time? No.
If the Maw skin was available to buy would as many run Maw? Or Amberplasm would people buy the DLC to attempt to earnt it? No
If you can get more AP by standing still and flipping keeps would people do it? YES (they did and was that good NO)
did people rubber band at Dolmens to earn lazy XP rather than play the game YES (was that a good thing NO)
Is any of that a good thing? NO. People are lazy, want the game dumbed down then move to another game when bored. Stop running he game down to appeal to casuals who won't be here in 12 months.
You are correct in that people would use it, of course. It doesn't mean its right. It doesn't mean its healthy for longevity. People are lazy. In particular new people who want this to be another MMO and can't be bothered to adapt.
additionally Your concurrent point makes no sense as those in favour of current are just saying you would trash a whole part of the game that interesting right now and rewards effort, the second you launch an AH. So as @Giles.floydub17_ESO states its just another attempt to get AH on the agenda.
Glady for those true ESO players that have learnt the system, and are here to stay long term ZOS don't want an AH , for now at least thank goodness.
PLEASE stop with the cries to dumb this game down and out some damn effort in everyone. Else we will be left with COD (Call of Duty not Cash on Delivery lol)
Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0 -
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Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭@Beardimus I agree with a lot of what you said, for example:You are correct in that people would use it, of course. It doesn't mean its right. It doesn't mean its healthy for longevity. People are lazy. In particular new people who want this to be another MMO and can't be bothered to adapt.
Agreed, it would not necessarily be good just because people would use it.
Also:... those in favour of current are just saying you would trash a whole part of the game that interesting right now and rewards effort, the second you launch an AH.
Agreed. A part of the game would be trashed, the guild-trader part of the game. Because what I believe to be the majority would move to the GAH the "second it was launched"**, even those that favour the current guild-trader system.
And that is the point. I believe that the majority does not want or favour the current-guild trader system, and even those that do would switch to the GAH in order to continue to make a profit, because that is where the buyers would be. Is it BETTER that way? Probably not, for some. But in my opinion it is the only foreseeable development if such a concurrent system were introduced, and I believe that refutes the argument heard on these forums over and over, that "the majority" like it the way it is.
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** maybe not instantly, my prediction is within a month when people's current listings expire at guild-traders expireEdited by Kurkikohtaus on June 25, 2017 11:24AM2 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It refutes nothing. Honestly your argument makes no sense as a case for AH.
Of course if you trash the point of a perfectly valid system people would stop using it. AH would undermine Guild Traders totally, which is why us Buyers & Sellers don't want it. As we are happy.
Trying to say Guild Traders lose their argument if both were concurrent is not correct, in fact you are just reinforcing the reason why we DONT want an AH. As it would trash things.
Currently as a buyer i don't have to worry about global monopoly, i can hunt around for a deal. That would be gone. The evil powers people fear in the current system would thrive with a AH and that's the irony.
The Pro AH camp thing the Anti AH camp are all evil market manipulators billionaires, and most of us are not. We just enjoy the current system as we have adapted to it, and thrive with it to buy deals etc. these evil monopolisers would actually love a AH.
Anyway we are away from the point. Your case doesn't stack up. It's like saying
"hypertherically if Maelstorm weopons were BOE and for sale in traders, and the crown store would as many people still do vMSA." Of course they wouldn't. Would it be right no, it would appeal to short term casual mindset that doesn't want to out effort in.
@Kurkikohtaus to help me articulate my point what area of the game do you enjoy? As an example.
As for me trading is a huge part that AH would wreck. I'm sure if the part you enjoy was wrecked you would voice an opinion too.
If PvP was simplified as Traders found it too hard
If Trials were easier and made BoE so traders could sell the best gear eaaily
If crafting was wrecked because casuals can't be bothered.
All of these hyperthetical situations casuals would love. But then what game would be have? COD? PacMan?
It's an MMORPG and Guild membership, Guild traders offer so much to new players, and old players as buyers and sellers alike. Wrecking it would remove all that.
Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
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Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
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Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
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Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
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Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0 -
BoutBeer_NLSoul ShrivenPlease let there be a global auction house.
In the current system you have to travel all around tamriel in the hope to find a certain item which is extremely tedious and unpractical, when you finally found such an item it will probably have a rediculous price because sellers need to make up for the subscribtion fees guilds ask for.
In addition to that, it can be hard to sell certain items because you just can't reach many buyers.
The system is really getting out of hand, many ask for high subscribtion fees which will be more than a normal player can make by selling.
Making an auction house accessible through the bank would fix all these problems and also add a new fun gameplay element of buying and selling items similar to the stockmarktet (which currently isn't really doable).
Guilds must stay of course but the guild store must be replaced with an auction house imo.
(All the current traders in cities could be replaced with random representatives for guilds where players can request a membership for that particular guild).Stay moist.0 -
Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭what area of the game do you enjoy? As an example.
For the record, group PvE. I am a casual trader who sells surplus mats and BoE things that I find and dont need. Other than glyphs for new gear, I generally dont buy anything.It refutes nothing. Honestly your argument makes no sense as a case for AH.
I am not making a case for an AH. I am trying to show people who like the current system that the system would wither into irrelevance (or Oblivion) if there were an AH option. And not because of a few greedy monopolizers, but because even current active traders would switch over more or less over night. I believe that there is no majority that favours the current system. Claims on the forums that there is are circumstantial and unfounded.Trying to say Guild Traders lose their argument if both were concurrent is not correct, in fact you are just reinforcing the reason why we DONT want an AH. As it would trash things.
- {posted and deleted a chunk here, here is the new thought} -
It would "trash things" because if people were given a choice of 2 concurrent systems, I believe that even those who prefer the current system would abandon it and choose to participate in the GAH. That is my point. It is not a question of one or the other, exclusively. The scenario is that if they were side by side, which would people choose?
Edited by Kurkikohtaus on June 25, 2017 2:28PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »One of the points I have been attempting to make is we have a great system. It is really here to stay. I say this because I really do not think you are about a discussion about your hypothesis. I think you are merely making a veiled attempt to try to bring about a global auction house. If that is the case, great, but it is not going to happen.
Absolutely true, and absolutely false.
I agree 100% that there will NEVER be any sort of open GAH in this game, concurrent or exclusive to the guild-trader system, which is here to stay. I have NO ILLUSIONS that this thread or any other thread / argumentation would convince ZOS to implement such a system.
Where you are wrong is that because I realize this, this thread is not a "veiled attempt to convince ZOS to bring about a GAH." This thread is an attempt to show those who favour guild-traders and who think they are in the majority that this system would come tumbling down in a month at the most if a GAH were in fact introduced. Not only because it would open up trading to everybody equally, but because I believe that those same people who now enjoy profiting from guild trading would move over to the GAH to try to maximise their profit.
Yes, this is an assumption. I am trying to predict consumer trends. It is done by businesses and individuals every day.
Yet you use the same types empty assumptions and guesses you complain that they use.My initial impulse in creating this thread was NOT to further hash out the pros and cons of a Global Auction House vs. the current guild-trader system. The purpose was much more narrow: I wanted to defeat the argument that supporters of the guild-trader system often use on the forums, that the "majority of players" prefer the current system. This argument is a thought-terminating cliché rooted in Perception Bias that has no basis in fact or logic. The dozens, perhaps even hundreds of people who have voiced their support for the current system in forum discussions in no way constitute a representative sample of ESO's active-player-population, the vast majority of which do not post on the forums.
Here you accuse trader supporters of one thing then turn around and do exactly what you accuse them of.
That is just one case in point. You say their argument is empty when yours is just as empty.
Now you are saying you are not making a case for the AH but that is exactly what you have been attempting to do throughout this entire thread. It really does not make sense that you are proposing a hypothetical situation just to prove people wrong, even though you have proved nothing.Edited by idk on June 25, 2017 3:09PM0 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@grim_tactics
So why not make it like Runescapes then? You can't see others bids but you can place a buy value and if someone is selling it a lower price then you'll get it for that price or whoever is selling close to the price you offered.
Example: Someone lists Tempering Alloy at 8k while another lists it at 9k; I offer 8.5k and save 500 gold because the lowest price (8k) was there even though both are the same distance away 8k gets a +1 because it is of lesser value.
Runescapes Grand Exchange was not perfect as you can change the market depending on how big and coordinated your guild was (I know because I did it before) but ZOS can easily weigh in and adjust for sudden changes vs rate.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
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