[Hypothetical] What would happen if there WERE a global AH?

Kurkikohtaus

Beardimus wrote: »

OP ain't listening to any responses and just cherry picking lines to reply to. It's a dead horse. Both topic and thread.

I have read every post here and try to answer those directly aimed at me through an "@" symbol or quote, time permitting.

idk

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

3. What you are doing is thinly veiled as something different. Your arguments clearly indicate you are attempting to do the same thing every one of those pro AH threads have done. You merely state having both in the game will prove something.

I think it would prove something, as stated above. And I am willing to accept that if in the described system both trading methods managed to co-exist indefinitely, then I would be wrong. And certainly if those who support guild-trading lead a successful boycott of the GAH, then I would of course be wrong as well.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Another example where you belittle those who do not support an AH as inexperienced and ill-informed.

There is not a single experienced and well-informed (from other MMOs) BUYER who is AGAINST a global AH ... think about that.

Yes, looking at it now, that statement was badly worded. Since then I have changed my tone.

Now I would present that argument this way:

I cannot imagine that experienced and well-informed buyers would be AGAINST a global AH, because the advantages to the buyer, both serious and casual, are too great to overlook.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

So in the end what you have presented in your OP is really just another AH thread except you call it a hypothesis. In the end you present the same baseless argument as everyone else yet somehow think it is more important.

Such is the nature of thought experiments. You propose something and try to understand what will happen and what it means. I don't think my "thought" is more important than anyone else's, except those who blindly claim that "the Majority" wants guild-traders, end of discussion.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

To prove my point that your thread and your replies are merely nothing more than every other AH thread I will present what you posted on page 2.

It is YOU, the SELLERS in the current system who are actually resisting change, because the prospect of adaptation is too daunting.

That quote serves another great example. Those in support of the guild traders have adapted. They might have resisted change in the beginning, but moved past that. It is probably the most illogical statement made in this entire thread.

I stand by my statement quoted in your quote above. Within the context of ESO, people who engage in guild-trading have adapted to nothing, because that is all that there every was. If the system changed or had to compete concurrently with an alternative system, THEN people would have to adapt, and I think that is what some who support guild-trading fear.

Once again your making gaping assumptions. Double downing on them. Stating that you stand by your oppinion that thias using the guild traders have not adapted because guild traders is all that's been in this game. It's clear a great many of us adapted from an AH to thebtradrts because the trader eceonomy is robust and successful.

You come off as though your strongly stating we are neophytes to MMOs and/or MMO economies and your the wise expert with years of MMO economies. Your basically saying we have never seen anything but ESO's guild trader system.

Patently absurd. You are completely wrong on that as we have adapted. It's you that clearly refuses to and is attempting to make yourself or as wiser and better to compensate.

As for the rest of your comments in what I quoted my previous post pretty much covers if still. Changing a few words doesn't changr that your merely pushing for an AH veiled as a hypothesis and in the end it is completely irrelevant.

Reality again. There will not be an AH in ESO anytime in the foreseeable further. the current system is robust and successful.

Kurkikohtaus

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It's clear a great many of us adapted from an AH to thebtradrts because the trader eceonomy is robust and successful.

You come off as though your strongly stating we are neophytes to MMOs and/or MMO economies and your the wise expert with years of MMO economies. Your basically saying we have never seen anything but ESO's guild trader system.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO AHHHH now I understand what you meant by "adapt", sorry it was an honest mistake. I now see you meant that you adapted from other systems in other games. Sorry, I honestly did not understand your point when I first read it and reacted to it.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

There will not be an AH in ESO anytime in the foreseeable further. the current system is robust and successful.

Agreed, as stated above, I have no illusions about this at all. But many people will remain unhappy about this.

--- --- ---

Had a bit of time on my hands waiting for an 8pm appointment and went back through this thread and did a little tally. I wrote down the name of every individual forum member and surmised if they were FOR a GAH, AGAINST one, or NEUTRAL or on the fence. There were actually many of these early on as the conversation became focused on cornering the market and other economic considerations, others discussed the pros and cons without offering an opinion and some just wrote short, witty comments.

Keep in mind that the tally has nothing to do with total posts, but individual users and their opinion.

Before I post the current tally, a DISCLAIMER:

This tally proves nothing. As I have said above, we forum users who discuss these things here make up an insignificant portion of the overall population and we are neither a representative sample size nor a typical demographic. Nevertheless, for the sake of curiosity and interest, here it is:

- at the time of this posting (Monday evening June 26 2017)

FOR a global aution house - 41

AGAINST a global auction house - 34

NEUTRAL or undecided posts - 29

TOTAL - 104

Cpt_Teemo

AH would save the current trading system tbh.

Vahrokh

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.

Stating on the forums that "the Majority" of players like the system as it is, is at best a very strong application of perception bias, not taking into account the fact that those that voice their opinions here are but a sliver of the total game population and therefore cannot by definition constitute a majority. THAT is baseless.

Speculating that a large portion of the player population would indeed try out a new GAH system and trying to predict where that would lead is indeed an assumption, but a logical one.

If you cannot make this distinction, then I am afraid we will never find common ground.

Majority of players have played enough MMOs to understand what is good and bad about both systems.
AHs are good for large guilds and big traders and also help gold sellers immensely.

There are several similarities to real life markets implementations, there are book since at least 2001 that explain markets microstructure in depth (written by a former USA SEC former chief none the less).

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It's very hypocritical to state others comments lack basis and are illogical then state your admitted assumptions are based in logic.

Stating on the forums that "the Majority" of players like the system as it is, is at best a very strong application of perception bias, not taking into account the fact that those that voice their opinions here are but a sliver of the total game population and therefore cannot by definition constitute a majority. THAT is baseless.

Speculating that a large portion of the player population would indeed try out a new GAH system and trying to predict where that would lead is indeed an assumption, but a logical one.

If you cannot make this distinction, then I am afraid we will never find common ground.

Majority of players have played enough MMOs to understand what is good and bad about both systems.
AHs are good for large guilds and big traders and also help gold sellers immensely.

There are several similarities to real life markets implementations, there are book since at least 2001 that explain markets microstructure in depth (written by a former USA SEC former chief none the less).

You do realize the bots still sell gold in this game as well, they actually join trading guilds as well I noticed to get large sums of currency and still sell to the public for real $. No matter what system it is for an online game if its BoE, there will be a market for IRL transactions no matter how bad the economy is set up to be.

I am a real life securities trader, I have created a mini exchange on EvE Online for 4 mutual funds of mine for about 100 billions ISK. My charts have been featured some years ago (iirc 2011) by CCP's CEO at EvE Fanfest.
My charting algorithm (taken from real life markets) has been used on an EvE fansite markets research and history too.
The same algorithm has been adopted for a pair of years on Guild Wars 2's top markets (expecially gems to gold) markets prices website.
It's also been given away as embedded in my markets extraction and analysis Python tool (EvEMarketHistoryDump) until CCP made cache scraping obsolete.
I have been known to move 300 billions worth of stock per trade (typically minerals and ices), thus manipulating (for a short while) even very liquid EvE markets.

I think I know what I am talking about. It's about wallets segregation and velocity of money (look for my articles about that on the EvE Online forums), two fundamental aspects to fight against both runaway hyperinflation, gold farmers and massive market making traders.

ESO are missing some best practices (in example, a fungible RL <-> crowns currency adopted by other MMOs) but with their current implementation they are FAR better protected than WoW and others.

MLGProPlayer

Tyreal1974 wrote: »

What would happen if there was a Global AH probably depends on who you ask. For many, such as myself i would like it as it would make things easier on me when looking for stuff to spend my few bits of shinies on. For the Mega-Farmers and some others however it would be a the END OF THE WORLD as we know it.

The only people it would hurt is flippers. Flipping right now is possible due to other players having incomplete information, so they undersell things that you can then flip for market value. A central AH would allow everyone to see what current selling prices are.

It wouldn't have any impact on farmers.

Vahrokh

notimetocare wrote: »

Simple:
1. Buyers would be ecstatic for a short period as prices for everything plummeted.
2. The majority of buyers would be resellers. There are players with 10+ million gold. Gold tempers would liekly drop by 1/3 to half. Those rich players? They know how to manipulate a game market.
3. After a few months of price drop, the common price fixing present in every MMO auction house takes over. The average player can still make money undercutting, but usually they are selling to the big buyers who resell for 10-20% more than the first seller made. People that need to buy xTempers for their gear have to get lucky or pay the big guys jacked up prices.
4. Alchemy mats would follow suit, but slower (easier to get on someones own time than tempers)
5. By the time alchemy mats were controlled by a handful of big buyers, gear would have fallen cheap enough for the average player to buy, while big buyers now have tons of extra gold. Gear, which was once too costly to corner the market on, is now cheap and big buyers have the resources to control it. Not all of it, just the key, important pieces like your weapons or small slot world drops (that currently tend to be 2-3x the prices for say chest or legs).
6. Now everything important is controlled by a few dozen people. Sure, you can farm it yourself or farm the gold. It is not as if these people price items where they cannot be bought, but the 'good deals' are dead. Competition is dead. And one of the bigger issues? Gold goes nowhere. Traders drain millions from the economy weekly.

Dont believe this? Go play any MMORPG with an AH. Find the important resources. You will find a handful of people control the majority of the market.

Exactly. I have been one of such people in control, for a decade. Do NOT let us take over the game. These days I do real life trading so my "thirst" to drain the markets in games is over. But there are many whose thirst is totally here and now.

MLGProPlayer

mvffins wrote: »

Gold mats are 50 percent cheaper atm in guild stores than they were a year ago, all the trading guilds I'm in have gold mats for sale, most of the traders I stop at usually have them.....where is this so called scarcity?


Most guilds with traders are at maximum capacity with 500 members, and I know some members may overlap, but I bet if you tallied up all of the active members in ESO you would find that a majority of them are in a guild that has a trader atm.

I would only agree to a Global Auction house if it was located in Morrowind so that anyone who wanted to use it would have to buy the newest DLC Chapter.

Prices have plummeted over the past year. Mats are nearly worthless at the moment.

Botters have flooded the market with cheap mats. People are also crafting less because crafted gear sucks.

Vahrokh

Gold mats are 50 percent cheaper atm in guild stores than they were a year ago, all the trading guilds I'm in have gold mats for sale, most of the traders I stop at usually have them.....where is this so called scarcity?

ZOS wanted to make the game fun for the soloers so the loot tables drop an over-abundance of materials vs the global game economy demand.

Scarcity as of now is created by materials consumpion but also by markets being segregated. If you suddenly dropped all the walls encasing the zillions of farmed goods (that is, you created an AH), materials would exactly and invariably follow the markets laws: the more the offer, the smaller the bid-ask spread.
What appears to you as weak scarcity, is a dream come true compared to what would happen with an AH. After a couple of months, you'd have everything being sold at NPC price + brokerage fee + 1 cent. Good bye to any fun at trading or to any profit, and a warm welcome to those who profit by huge volumes and low prices: gold sellers, money launderers (from stolen accounts) and the likes.

Sigtric

I've read this entire thing now

And the only thing I can really do is summarize this thread as such:

OP: Scenario B would happen because the silent majority wants it
Others: No, the silent majority wants Scenario A
OP: YOU HAVE NO PROOF WHAT THE SILENT MAJORITY WANTS AND YOUR OPINION IS BASELESS AND DUMB

Me: S'wit of the year awarded to OP.

Tasear

Preposterous trait would be OP

Silent_Majority

Sigtric wrote: »

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:

What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?

My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.

In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.

Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?

No you are wrong the Silent Majority DOES want a global auction house. Not silent any longer

idk

Silent_Majority wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:

What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?

My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.

In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.

Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?

No you are wrong the Silent Majority DOES want a global auction house. Not silent any longer

At least there is some humor, clear humor, in the forums.

AzraelKrieg

Silent_Majority wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:

What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?

My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.

In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.

Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?

No you are wrong the Silent Majority DOES want a global auction house. Not silent any longer

You pretty much made your account for posts like this, didn't you

Kurkikohtaus

Sigtric wrote: »

OP: YOU HAVE NO PROOF WHAT THE SILENT MAJORITY WANTS AND YOUR OPINION IS BASELESS AND DUMB

Hey thanks for your insight, @Sigtric, don't mind me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt.

Of course I have no proof. But this is not a discussion about proof, because there will never be a GAH anyway. This is a discussion about trying to predict mass-population behaviour in a certain scenario.

I would be interested to know if anyone actually believes that in my scenario, the current guild-trading system would either happily co-exist with a global AH or perhaps even flip the tables on what I am saying and continue to be the "go to" trading system in a game. Can you envision a logical flow of events that would lead to that?

I imagine that a call for a boycott, both here on the forums and through various in-game channels would be a start, but it would also require massive discipline from sellers NOT to post items in the GAH for easy gold.

Can anyone offer an outline of how this might work?

Sigtric

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

OP: YOU HAVE NO PROOF WHAT THE SILENT MAJORITY WANTS AND YOUR OPINION IS BASELESS AND DUMB

Hey thanks for your insight, @Sigtric, don't mind me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt.

Of course I have no proof. But this is not a discussion about proof, because there will never be a GAH anyway. This is a discussion about trying to predict mass-population behaviour in a certain scenario.

I would be interested to know if anyone actually believes that in my scenario, the current guild-trading system would either happily co-exist with a global AH or perhaps even flip the tables on what I am saying and continue to be the "go to" trading system in a game. Can you envision a logical flow of events that would lead to that?

I imagine that a call for a boycott, both here on the forums and through various in-game channels would be a start, but it would also require massive discipline from sellers NOT to post items in the GAH for easy gold.

Can anyone offer an outline of how this might work?

What you quoted was not my opinion, but rather paraphrasing yours. Comments past, you dismissed someone as being baseless and illogical because they couldn't possibly know the opinion of those who don't visit the forums yet your entire theory is based on the assumption that you do know.

Everyone knows a GAH would likely kill guild traders. Not because it's a better system but because it's familiar and low effort. Human nature is drawn to that. Why go uphill for a little more gain when you can go downhill for some?

Guild traders work fine. Anyone who can be bothered to find a trade guild, which is not hard to do, and spend a little time listing items can make an in game living from it. The desire to change to a GAH is born of pure laziness and unwillingness to do something different.

Kurkikohtaus

Sigtric wrote: »

What you quoted was not my opinion, but rather paraphrasing yours.

Ok I guess. But please, I am not calling anyone or their opinion DUMB. The idea that "the majority" wants the current system IS baseless though.

Sigtric wrote: »

Comments past, you dismissed someone as being baseless and illogical because they couldn't possibly know the opinion of those who don't visit the forums yet your entire theory is based on the assumption that you do know.

NO. I am predicting mass-behaviour in a given scenario, analyzing trends and challenging people to propose an alternative course of events to the ones I have laid out. As you said:

Sigtric wrote: »

Everyone knows a GAH would likely kill guild traders. Not because it's a better system but because it's familiar and low effort. Human nature is drawn to that.

I agree. I challenge those who believe guild-traders would survive or perhaps even dominate a concurrent scenario to refute this very argument.

Ostaradoe

I love how everyone is suddenly an economist I make no such claims, and can only speak from my own experiences.

I have seen games where AH's work very well and some where they don't work at all. It depends not just on the system in place, but the community as a whole. Thankfully, there are only a small minority of players who abuse the system by buying up all rare mats (for example) and selling them at a higher prices. In my experience, it only creates a temporary price spike before settling down again.

I have not joined any trade guilds in ESO because I am put off by the strict criteria. I am not a farmer or massive gold chaser, but would like to be able to sell the odd piece of armour or stack of mats I no longer need. There is nowhere I can do this other than in chat which is tedious.

I think an AH would be a great addition to this game - however I don't think it would work alongside trade guilds and would need to be in place of which is not going to happen, and understandably so (from ZOS point of view). I'll stick to selling in chat for now!

MLGProPlayer

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Silent_Majority wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:

What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?

My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.

In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.

Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?

No you are wrong the Silent Majority DOES want a global auction house. Not silent any longer

At least there is some humor, clear humor, in the forums.

There have been plenty of polls on this. The majority want a central AH (feel free to make another; the results will be the same as every other time).

I'm in a few major trading guilds (Rawl'kha, Mournhold, Belkarth) and I make millions from the current system. But I would still prefer a central AH. It's simply way more convenient and it would free up guild slots for other types of guilds.

Beardimus

@Kurkikohtaus it feels like there is a very particular argument that you want to have. Very pigeon holed, without any real context or relevance.

Who has said, regularly, that if AH launched in co existance to guild traders that it wouldn't work? People have a No AH preference, absolutely. People don't want one, sure. You seem to want to have an argument that isn't an argument just to get a AH thread on the agenda.

But the argument you are trying to make makes no sense. They can not co exist. Once you launch AH it would undermine Guild Traders. It would wreck the system.

Does that mean its right? No
Does that mean its good for the game? no

I hate the concept of AH. Loath it, wrecks a very cool part of the game right now. But i would have to adapt if it launched yes. Would i be pissed about it, yes. Same way i am over all the other casualizations the devs have made with the game to cater for lazy people.

Look over the examples i gave before that you have selectively ignored @Kurkikohtaus

If pledge keys were for BOE and for sale, it addition to running pledges less people would do pledges. Does that mean running dungeons for pledge keys is wrong? No

People are just lazy. I wont repeat myself as you ignored it all before. But in every scenario if you offered a easy path or the right path people would short cut. And generally those shortcuts wreck the game. Keep / Outpost flipping for AP is a brilliant example if you don't want to read back.

Did people play PvP. No. They stood AFK flipping our posts for days on end to get AP. Mindlessly so, rather than enjoy the game. Lazy.

Not always however. I'll hold my hands up to hating PUG running dungeons and pledges (which you enjoy) So i don't. Instead i put effort into trading, thus make Gold to buy shoulders and helms via the Golden. Effort spent is each to their own. I do t cry on here for dungeons to be wrecked because i don't like them do i now @Kurkikohtaus

The problem lies when people who dislike certain content want to break it for others who do. With some odd sense of entitlement .

All this is wasted words as you clearly want the very specific nonsense argument you want to have. But I'm bored in traffic

Kurkikohtaus

@Beardimus I do not PvP so alas I cannot comment on your PvP analogy. I can however agree that I would not like to see dungeons dummed down even further just because there are lazy people out there, like you say. So I understand the parallel you are making that you do not want to see your preferred content dummed down because other lazy people want it differently.

But I offer you another parallel.

Would it be good for the game if a system were introduced whereby the active PvP population was multiplied 10-fold? (not just exploiters in the AP example you listed above, but people who actually play) Would it be good for the game if a system were introduced whereby the Dungeon/Trial population was increased 10-fold?

The point of this analogy is inclusivity. Regardless of the appearance that anyone can join a trading guild and participate, it is still an exclusive activity, and that by design. So when you say that:

Beardimus wrote:

I hate the concept of AH. Loath it, wrecks a very cool part of the game right now. But i would have to adapt if it launched yes. Would i be pissed about it, yes. Same way i am over all the other casualizations the devs have made with the game to cater for lazy people.

... I say this: Let them run concurrently. Let those that enjoy guild-trading for what it is continue to trade in that way. And then if those who do enjoy guild-trading quit the activity of their own will in order to play on the GAH ... then I believe it is not the system itself (the in-game mechanics/concept) that you enjoy, but the exclusivity of it.

And I think THAT is bad for the game.

Beardimus

@Kurkikohtaus I'm glad you took the time to consider the point i was making. Appreciate that. There was alot on the forums.about the PvP side but i guess you are newer to the forum so may not have seen. But you get the point.

Regarding inclusivity (sadly this, and many other points on here feel too much like real world politics, and right v left wing views seem apparent even in games, but i digress..) i don't agree that trashing content to make it more inclusive is the right way to do it. And its not about any degree of exclusivity, or eliteism, its about reward for hard work being my mindset in general over entitlement.

In the same breath to make Trials inclusive we could make them easier. So any CP 300 could do Maw, and a figure of 10-15k DPS gets you into a Vet farming group. More inclusive yes. Right thing to do? NO.

Now the above example is very, very hard for me to make. As i hate trials, as the elitist snobbery that goes with it. HOWEVER i do accept to get into that content i accept i need to work on my setup, earn some CP, and increase my DPS. WORK for it.

I would never say the content should be scales down to make it more inclusive. As it would trash it for so many, and give me no motivation to work at it. As i did with trading.

I repeat, for the 3rd or 4th time. Your argument is making non sense. No one is saying if they ran concurrently they would stubbornly remain with traders. AH would wreck trading very quickly, so most would come over. And i think the most prolofic millionaire tycoons your camp seem to think exist would be over to AH day 1 to manipulate it.

No-AH camp are agreeing with you. AH would undermine and trash traders through peoples laziness. Do we want it? NO. But would we have to use it when it because the only viable system YES. would it being value to the game. NO.

Out of interest how long have you played ESO. The most passionate AH campainers are generally early on, fresh from other MMO's expecting a cut and paste.

I won't keep up the debate as I'm sure most of the forum is bored of these threads. But i appreciate that you got my point at least.

starkerealm

Silent_Majority wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:

What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?

My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.

In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.

Your entire theory is based on the assumption that the silent majority wants global ah. They are silent. How the vehk do you know?

No you are wrong the Silent Majority DOES want a global auction house. Not silent any longer

You know that phrase actually means, "those dead guys," right? The 'silent majority' that have passed before us. Nixon used the term incorrectly as a rhetorical device, claiming support where none existed.

faerigirl

I wonder what would happen if there was one ESO trader way out in the boonies somewhere that any one could post on but was more restrictive?

Kurkikohtaus

Beardimus wrote: »

Out of interest how long have you played ESO. The most passionate AH campainers are generally early on, fresh from other MMO's expecting a cut and paste.

I have been playing since November 2016, became an ESO+ subscriber early on. With regards to trading, I began selling harvested mats soon in a trading guild that I am still a member of. To this day I post items daily and am fortunate enough that my guild usually has a vendor in a major hub. As a buyer however, I detest the system, because, as you say ...

Beardimus wrote: »

its not about any degree of exclusivity, or eliteism, its about reward for hard work being my mindset in general over entitlement.

@Beardimus with regards to this quote and the specific comparison to trials, I agree to a point. Hard work should be necessary to achieve what one wants to achieve in this game, be it success in trials, PvP or economic goals. But I offer you this argument ... who is working hard with regards to guild-trading ... the buyer or the seller?

Indeed, if your goal is millions of income per month, then you must "work hard" as a seller by continuously farming, acquiring and posting your wares. At your bank.

But I find that first and foremost it is HARD WORK to be a BUYER in this system. I'm not talking about speculators who buy with the intention to flip, but normal buyers who need or want the things they are buying for themselves. Travelling, searching, comparing prices, using zone chat as an alternative ... I find all of that absurdly time consuming and stressful. For a SELLER with a strong guild in a good hub (Mournhold, Wayrest...), how much work is really involved to post your items? A visit to the bank. The stress is transferred to buyers.

And therein lies the exclusivity. I feel it is the succesful SELLERS in good guilds who feel entitled, not the struggling buyers who want a more convenient system.

idk

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

What you quoted was not my opinion, but rather paraphrasing yours.

Ok I guess. But please, I am not calling anyone or their opinion DUMB. The idea that "the majority" wants the current system IS baseless though.

Sigtric wrote: »

Comments past, you dismissed someone as being baseless and illogical because they couldn't possibly know the opinion of those who don't visit the forums yet your entire theory is based on the assumption that you do know.

NO. I am predicting mass-behaviour in a given scenario, analyzing trends and challenging people to propose an alternative course of events to the ones I have laid out. As you said:

Sigtric wrote: »

Everyone knows a GAH would likely kill guild traders. Not because it's a better system but because it's familiar and low effort. Human nature is drawn to that.

I agree. I challenge those who believe guild-traders would survive or perhaps even dominate a concurrent scenario to refute this very argument.

But you are predicting behavior. You have merely offered assumptions and challenging people with those assumptions. You have not refuted anything. Please refer back to my last two replies to you. Thx.

@MLGProPlayer

A guy clearly makes a joke and I make a nice comment on it then you call me out on that. OMG. LOL.

Kurkikohtaus

@Giles.floydub17_ESO I am wondering, given your many contributions to this discussion, if you agree with Beardimus' post above in which he says:

No-AH camp are agreeing with you. AH would undermine and trash traders through peoples laziness. Do we want it? NO. But would we have to use it when it because the only viable system YES. would it being value to the game. NO.

2 parts to that obviously, part 1 being that yes, people would abandon guild traders, but part 2 being that this would be bad for the game. Do you agree with this?

If you do not, then I am genuinely interested in how you believe things would play out and why. I am not trying to trap you into conjecture, I actually appreciate imaginative conjecture, because yes, that is what I am doing here. But no one in the course of this thread has been able to lay out a detailed and logical counter-argument as to why guild-trading might survive or possibly even render the introduction of a GAH irrelevant.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

I'm gonna make this real, real simple. The current system favors sellers / those with lots and lots of time to devote to watching the markets. They are the ones speaking up here. Shocking, I know.

Those of us who are just trying to play the darn game, kill mobs, hunt through delves and public dungeons with friends, do dungeons, absolutely despise this system. It makes finding anything a huge pain for us. If I have two hours to play a night, I don't want to spend one of those hours finding an item. That's incredibly dumb.

And you know why there aren't more of us speaking up on here, making it seem like we're somehow in the minority? Because most of us can't be bothered with the forums. We either don't have the time or don't care enough to be on here, but I would challenge anyone to prove me wrong. For the record, I'm only on here because I have a desk job with a lot of downtime. I wouldn't waste my precious free time at home on the forums, and I doubt I'm alone.

I'd literally post a video of myself eating a shoe if someone can prove to me that a majority of players in the game would rather have the current system than a global or regional AH.

Everyone's trying to input some sort of economics perspective into this. And that's cool and all, and I'm sure some people even know what they're talking about, but here's a little secret for ya: those of us who want an AH to happen? We don't care. We don't care about ANY of the points you guys are making, because the system sucks for us.

The AH could be a giant dumpster fire and completely tank whatever "economy" currently exists, but guess what? That would still be an improvement for most of us. That's how awful this current system is for a buyer who's not trying to devote their time to playing the market. Better an all-inclusive dumpster fire than the glorified boys club that is guild traders.

Sigtric

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I'm gonna make this real, real simple. The current system favors sellers / those with lots and lots of time to devote to watching the markets. They are the ones speaking up here. Shocking, I know.

Those of us who are just trying to play the darn game, kill mobs, hunt through delves and public dungeons with friends, do dungeons, absolutely despise this system. It makes finding anything a huge pain for us. If I have two hours to play a night, I don't want to spend one of those hours finding an item. That's incredibly dumb.

And you know why there aren't more of us speaking up on here, making it seem like we're somehow in the minority? Because most of us can't be bothered with the forums. We either don't have the time or don't care enough to be on here, but I would challenge anyone to prove me wrong. For the record, I'm only on here because I have a desk job with a lot of downtime. I wouldn't waste my precious free time at home on the forums, and I doubt I'm alone.

I'd literally post a video of myself eating a shoe if someone can prove to me that a majority of players in the game would rather have the current system than a global or regional AH.

Everyone's trying to input some sort of economics perspective into this. And that's cool and all, and I'm sure some people even know what they're talking about, but here's a little secret for ya: those of us who want an AH to happen? We don't care. We don't care about ANY of the points you guys are making, because the system sucks for us.

The AH could be a giant dumpster fire and completely tank whatever "economy" currently exists, but guess what? That would still be an improvement for most of us. That's how awful this current system is for a buyer who's not trying to devote their time to playing the market. Better an all-inclusive dumpster fire than the glorified boys club that is guild traders.

I'm going to make this real simple. You're wrong.

I am the player you describe. I don't watch the market. I don't buy and flip. I do take 10 minutes or so every couple days to list things to sell just like I would an AH. Speak for yourself.

Raezputin

What would happen in my opinion is that items and materials will be far easier and less time consuming to get if you cant farm or craft them. Everyone could join at any time, people would actually use 5 slots for guilds, instead of having 5 silent selfish communities just so you can start trading.

Traders arent a bad idea, it just doesnt have a satisfied user. Traders are immersive, compraed to AH, but people who are keen on trading generally dont give a *** about immersion, they like the tons of gold they make by outsmarting the market.

Immersion is important to people who like to roleplay, play slowly their own game with friends. Those people generally dont give a *** about trading, they slowly farm stuff and craft items with pretty motifs. They also join guilds that doesnt even have a trader or one hidden somewhere in the jungle.

See the irony? That i think is one of the reasons, why AH is much better for MMORPG.