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[Hypothetical] What would happen if there WERE a global AH?
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Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Well the it's one less reason to have a guild.
Actually, it's one less reason to have more than a guild. What really harms guilds in this game isn't the calls for a non-guild based trading system, it's the fact that people belong to so many guilds that for the most part they cease to be traditional guilds in which the members have a real sense of community and commitment. If the traditional guild model was adopted here then with a proper structure and with the guilds being single alliance-based then it would lead to a massive improvement in the game - but it would need to be accompanied by a different trading system.
One of my close nit and active guild is my trade guild. I can even lfg in thier chat. They guild officers have even accomplished almost constant mournhold trader without dues. A global AH would change a community of mine and ruin most of my guildies time on the game. Most play the economy of this game no Trials or PvP. Why change everything cause it's alittle annoying to shop around.Edited by Onefrkncrzypope on June 23, 2017 3:42PM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »
No.. It tells me:
It is a dead issue.
People want Wow clones, like the games they left because they were disgusted with, among other things, the games inflated economy.Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
Demycilian✭✭✭✭
Bottom line. Matt Firor, or one of the ZoS devs said something to the effect of "If you want a global auction house, we will have to: Down the servers. Rebuild the game, and Start over with the base code."
Frankly, it does not matter if every player wants this, it aint gonna happen.
Thats them being: We see how this adversely affects your fun in ESO. Sadly, we cant handle our own game beyond cosmetics and remodeling.1 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »
No.. It tells me:
It is a dead issue.
People want Wow clones, like the games they left because they were disgusted with, among other things, the games inflated economy.
At least it had an economy
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Drachenfier wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
@Absolut_Turkey your response is infuriating. You have absolutely no idea what the "majority" of players want, because the forums and who-ever you have talked to in game represent a miniscule fraction of the game's population and is by no means a representative sample size.
What you are advancing is a Thought-Terminating Cliché ... look it up.AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
Actually, no. In terms of the game's population, those that choose to participate in forum discussions are a infinitessimaly small minority compared to the enourmous majority that never post or even read the forums.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Still, OP ignores my replies. They are inconvenient for him.
I'm sorry @Giles.floydub17_ESO , there has been so much said here, could you quote which reply you would like me to address?
Lol.. infuriating? How about actually doing a forum search before keeping up this "white knighting" for a lost cause?
This is from just the first 2 months after ESO launch.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/75973/stop-asking-for-global-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/80090/this-game-does-not-need-an-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/87104/auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/95131/for-those-who-want-an-auction-hall
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/906472#Comment_906472
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/70211/auction-house-is-a-must/p1
And.. the list goes on for 15 pages of threads.
Bottom line. Matt Firor, or one of the ZoS devs said something to the effect of "If you want a global auction house, we will have to: Down the servers. Rebuild the game, and Start over with the base code."
Frankly, it does not matter if every player wants this, it aint gonna happen.
That in itself should tell you that this is an actual issue.
I don't believe they'd have to rebuild the game, sounds like a cop out to me.
I guess you failed in your first attempt to corner me. Try to make me out as some sort of liar. LOL
We are all aware of google searches and we are all aware these threads pop up regularly.
It is funny how none of those threads offer the smallest actual reason the game should change to an auction house. You see, we have guild traders. It is what has been in the game for 3 years and will be around for a long time.
You, and those in the threads have provided ZERO actual reason anything should be changed. Mostly assumptions and the likes that are really saying you want ESO to be like other games you played. Just opinions based on whatever sentiment one has from those games.
Funny how that works. We still have a guild traders and no threat they will be leaving anytime soon.
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Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
@Absolut_Turkey your response is infuriating. You have absolutely no idea what the "majority" of players want, because the forums and who-ever you have talked to in game represent a miniscule fraction of the game's population and is by no means a representative sample size.
What you are advancing is a Thought-Terminating Cliché ... look it up.AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
Actually, no. In terms of the game's population, those that choose to participate in forum discussions are a infinitessimaly small minority compared to the enourmous majority that never post or even read the forums.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Still, OP ignores my replies. They are inconvenient for him.
I'm sorry @Giles.floydub17_ESO , there has been so much said here, could you quote which reply you would like me to address?
Lol.. infuriating? How about actually doing a forum search before keeping up this "white knighting" for a lost cause?
This is from just the first 2 months after ESO launch.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/75973/stop-asking-for-global-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/80090/this-game-does-not-need-an-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/87104/auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/95131/for-those-who-want-an-auction-hall
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/906472#Comment_906472
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/70211/auction-house-is-a-must/p1
And.. the list goes on for 15 pages of threads.
Bottom line. Matt Firor, or one of the ZoS devs said something to the effect of "If you want a global auction house, we will have to: Down the servers. Rebuild the game, and Start over with the base code."
Frankly, it does not matter if every player wants this, it aint gonna happen.
That in itself should tell you that this is an actual issue.
I don't believe they'd have to rebuild the game, sounds like a cop out to me.
I guess you failed in your first attempt to corner me. Try to make me out as some sort of liar. LOL
We are all aware of google searches and we are all aware these threads pop up regularly.
It is funny how none of those threads offer the smallest actual reason the game should change to an auction house. You see, we have guild traders. It is what has been in the game for 3 years and will be around for a long time.
You, and those in the threads have provided ZERO actual reason anything should be changed. Mostly assumptions and the likes that are really saying you want ESO to be like other games you played. Just opinions based on whatever sentiment one has from those games.
Funny how that works. We still have a guild traders and no threat they will be leaving anytime soon.
Failed? I didn't believe you when you claimed to have cornered the market on crafted items in SWTOR. I am definitely calling BS on that. I even said as much, if you scroll up.
Actually, these threads have offered very sound reasons, you just don't like them. At this point, I think you're just trolling, based on claims you've made and your complete refusal to acknowledge even the most obvious points.Edited by Drachenfier on June 23, 2017 3:51PM2 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
@Absolut_Turkey your response is infuriating. You have absolutely no idea what the "majority" of players want, because the forums and who-ever you have talked to in game represent a miniscule fraction of the game's population and is by no means a representative sample size.
What you are advancing is a Thought-Terminating Cliché ... look it up.AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
Actually, no. In terms of the game's population, those that choose to participate in forum discussions are a infinitessimaly small minority compared to the enourmous majority that never post or even read the forums.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Still, OP ignores my replies. They are inconvenient for him.
I'm sorry @Giles.floydub17_ESO , there has been so much said here, could you quote which reply you would like me to address?
Lol.. infuriating? How about actually doing a forum search before keeping up this "white knighting" for a lost cause?
This is from just the first 2 months after ESO launch.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/75973/stop-asking-for-global-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/80090/this-game-does-not-need-an-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/87104/auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/95131/for-those-who-want-an-auction-hall
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/906472#Comment_906472
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/70211/auction-house-is-a-must/p1
And.. the list goes on for 15 pages of threads.
Bottom line. Matt Firor, or one of the ZoS devs said something to the effect of "If you want a global auction house, we will have to: Down the servers. Rebuild the game, and Start over with the base code."
Frankly, it does not matter if every player wants this, it aint gonna happen.
That in itself should tell you that this is an actual issue.
I don't believe they'd have to rebuild the game, sounds like a cop out to me.
I guess you failed in your first attempt to corner me. Try to make me out as some sort of liar. LOL
We are all aware of google searches and we are all aware these threads pop up regularly.
It is funny how none of those threads offer the smallest actual reason the game should change to an auction house. You see, we have guild traders. It is what has been in the game for 3 years and will be around for a long time.
You, and those in the threads have provided ZERO actual reason anything should be changed. Mostly assumptions and the likes that are really saying you want ESO to be like other games you played. Just opinions based on whatever sentiment one has from those games.
Funny how that works. We still have a guild traders and no threat they will be leaving anytime soon.
Step 1) make a new character
Step 2) join some casual guilds. Doesn't even have to be new player guilds, just casual guilds. Can also do a mix of casual guilds and up-and-coming trade guilds with less-than-ideal locations
Step 3) poll people about both their satisfaction with the current system and about how much they actually participate in the economy. Try and really get a feel about their motivations for playing, and what their priorities are while they're in game. You can also ask them what they do with their extra, unused mats and items.
Step 4) come to a conclusion, while understanding that these players are the majority of the playerbase, and these players will never set foot here in the forums
It's easy to develop an opinion when you only run with a certain crowd. As someone whose been on both sides of the fence in previous MMOs and went from unemployed 30 hours a week in-game to a 9-to-5 weekend warrior, I'd like to think I have a unique perspective on these sorts of things.
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Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »BTW, you are not offering any critical thinking so there is no reason to suggest anyone is attempting to stop critical thinking.
The statement by @Absolut_Turkey that reads:And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
... is meant to stop critical thinking.
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AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »I know there are games out there where you run your own virtual store, maybe the "hardcore sellers" can go play those instead?
So you have played other MMOs that have a trade system you enjoyed more, and yet you come here and want to take an aspect of the game that many people enjoy away from them?
I've been playing the game since launch and one of the things that kept me logging in when work got insanely busy was that I wanted to make sure my guild slots were filled (both for my trading guild and my social guilds).
So no, I will not go play a game with a "hardcore trading system" any more than you are going to play a game with a global AH.
The Moot Councillor1 -
Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭People want Wow clones, like the games they left because they were disgusted with, among other things, the games inflated economy.
Ha, that's actually a good point. Auction Houses and the systems surrounding them are definitely flawed at least in some way in every MMO, yet, as you say, that is what people want. Which is the premise of my hypothesis.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »It is funny how none of those threads offer the smallest actual reason the game should change to an auction house.
To be clear, not even I am saying that. What I am trying to say is that those who like the system and believe that they are in the majority are wrong. I have no proof, it is my opinion that the majority would prefer an open AH and this thread is a thought experiment that attempts to demonstrate that.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »
And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
Below is your reponseKurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
@Absolut_Turkey your response is infuriating. You have absolutely no idea what the "majority" of players want, because the forums and who-ever you have talked to in game represent a miniscule fraction of the game's population and is by no means a representative sample size.
What you are advancing is a Thought-Terminating Cliché ... look it up.Drachenfier wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
@Absolut_Turkey your response is infuriating. You have absolutely no idea what the "majority" of players want, because the forums and who-ever you have talked to in game represent a miniscule fraction of the game's population and is by no means a representative sample size.
What you are advancing is a Thought-Terminating Cliché ... look it up.AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
Actually, no. In terms of the game's population, those that choose to participate in forum discussions are a infinitessimaly small minority compared to the enourmous majority that never post or even read the forums.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Still, OP ignores my replies. They are inconvenient for him.
I'm sorry @Giles.floydub17_ESO , there has been so much said here, could you quote which reply you would like me to address?
Lol.. infuriating? How about actually doing a forum search before keeping up this "white knighting" for a lost cause?
This is from just the first 2 months after ESO launch.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/75973/stop-asking-for-global-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/80090/this-game-does-not-need-an-auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/87104/auction-house
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/95131/for-those-who-want-an-auction-hall
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/906472#Comment_906472
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/70211/auction-house-is-a-must/p1
And.. the list goes on for 15 pages of threads.
Bottom line. Matt Firor, or one of the ZoS devs said something to the effect of "If you want a global auction house, we will have to: Down the servers. Rebuild the game, and Start over with the base code."
Frankly, it does not matter if every player wants this, it aint gonna happen.
That in itself should tell you that this is an actual issue.
I don't believe they'd have to rebuild the game, sounds like a cop out to me.
I guess you failed in your first attempt to corner me. Try to make me out as some sort of liar. LOL
We are all aware of google searches and we are all aware these threads pop up regularly.
It is funny how none of those threads offer the smallest actual reason the game should change to an auction house. You see, we have guild traders. It is what has been in the game for 3 years and will be around for a long time.
You, and those in the threads have provided ZERO actual reason anything should be changed. Mostly assumptions and the likes that are really saying you want ESO to be like other games you played. Just opinions based on whatever sentiment one has from those games.
Funny how that works. We still have a guild traders and no threat they will be leaving anytime soon.
Failed? I didn't believe you when you claimed to have cornered the market on crafted items in SWTOR. I am definitely calling BS on that. I even said as much, if you scroll up.
Actually, these threads have offered very sound reasons, you just don't like them. At this point, I think you're just trolling, based on claims you've made and your complete refusal to acknowledge even the most obvious points.
It is irrelevant if you believe or not that I manipulated prices of items in SWTOR. I took your question as a weak troll question easily tossed to the ground.
If any of those threads offered any real sound reasoning then why at you not quoting them in here. I can do a google search and link a bunch of threads. It is just fluff. Even less significant than someone saying a majority of players want an AH, which would be purely an assumption.
Unless you come back with something solid I will not be replying. Just as OP has looked past two posts where I pointed out the weakness to his arguments and continues with the same or similar mere assumptions, it is just not worth replying to a void.
Off to the guild trader market. Cheers.Edited by idk on June 23, 2017 4:23PM0 -
Avalon✭✭✭✭✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Why change everything cause it's alittle annoying to shop around.
Because there is nothing 'little' about how annoying the current system is for a good many people? I did the math out on another post earlier (different thread), but, I am a crafter, and I love picking up different motifs, however, now I need to fill in the missing areas in my collection. Here is the part of my post that explains my issue best:There is a major city in each of the 15 areas that launched with the game, plus coldharbour. So, 16. With about 6 traders per: 96. There are at least 4 other traders in the game, so let's work with 100 (for easy math). There are well over 500 motifs listed, on average, per trader: 50,000. If it takes you only ONE second to register, comprehend, and move on, through each and every one of them, and you INSTANTLY traveled to each trader and pulled up their inventory, that means no less than 50,000 seconds, or just shy of 14 hours.
So, if I play 4 hours each day, it would take me almost 4 entire days of playing to have looked through every single vendor to find a single motif (for instance, Draugr Helmets). I play 4 or 5 days a week, so, by the time I get to the end of that, almost an entire week has passed. Consider how many motifs are found per day, how many MIGHT be the one rare motif I am looking for... I would need to just turn around and start all over again. And, that is a ridiculous assumption of 1 second per motif, and instant travel (no load screens or running/riding to get to the traders, etc)
Why? No search bar. I am on console, so don't mention add-ons, and I really hate when players throw that around to excuse poor mechanics and lousy programming. We need, at the very least, a search bar, but even then, with there being 100+ traders, even spending only 5 minutes per trader, we're talking about over 8 hours to visit each trader. Notice how popular TTC is? And, it hasn't destroyed the economy. What if we had a UI feature that allowed players to search for whatever item they wanted, then it told them which traders had it, and for how much? Players would still have to travel to those traders. But, it would save a great deal of time going through an insanely poor and ridiculous trader system.1 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »And just so we're clear, the majority of players DO NOT WANT a centralized AH. We've been over this...COUNTLESS times.
@Absolut_Turkey your response is infuriating. You have absolutely no idea what the "majority" of players want, because the forums and who-ever you have talked to in game represent a miniscule fraction of the game's population and is by no means a representative sample size.
What you are advancing is a Thought-Terminating Cliché ... look it up.AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
Actually, no. In terms of the game's population, those that choose to participate in forum discussions are a infinitessimaly small minority compared to the enourmous majority that never post or even read the forums.
Look you can say that; but until you actually post some sort of quantitative values proving this "Silent Majority" not for game forums in general, but this forum specifically, and further prove with quantitative facts that this "Silent Majority" shares your opinion to a much higher extent than opposing opinions all you have is your own thought stopping cliche. I believe there is actually a formal logical fallacy at work here, "ad populum", if you are saying your point is correct because most people support it and that makes it right.
MMOs thrive with robust social interaction between players. Trade guilds foster robust social interaction between players. Trade guilds help this MMO thrive. That's an argument.
I've already pointed out that any global auction house might result in some cases of price improvement on gold transactions for players, but that's not where the value is of this market structure to zos, the social transactions in the guilds is where they derive their value.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Meh, in truth there is far too much supply vs demand in ESO. The only reason it doesn't feel that way is because of the limited number of traders in the game.
Every (good) trader has legendary mats, motif pages, etc. en masse and considering that most of them are fairly easy to get with minimal work, I don't see these items being incredibly high in cost. Even if someone were to attempt to buy everything and mark it up, chances are people would just undercut them every single time that it would just be a financal loss to do so.
The only items that would be worthwhile are limited time items, such as the Halloween and Christmas event stuff but even those aren't in stupid high demand either.Argonian forever0 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It would create a market overnight for low level set pieces that those who level slowly would be all over.
And I'd be able to get rid of the memory-hogging MM addon.2 -
MarbleQuiche✭✭✭AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »
In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.
Not sure if any of that is true, it's not hard to get into a good trading guild and I know a lot of people that are in 3 or 4 at a time. This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
From a market perspective what will happen is high-liquidity commoditized items will drop in price, low-liquidity specialized items will go up in price. With greater price availability spreads will narrow on high liquidity items, and on low-liquidity items spreads will evaporate as smart traders sweep low prices and post size at a higher price. Price laddering for low liquidity items will be staggered only by a margin slightly higher than the transnational cost of posting an item in that price range. From a guy who worked as a position trader at a bulge bracket BD for many years I can tell you with confidence this is exactly how it will work out.
Having a disorganized market is much better for this game, the social value trading guilds bring to this game has vastly more value to the game's creators than any price improvement on gold transactions is going to have on the player-base, assuming those kinds of apples to oranges comparisons are even a consideration.
^^That^^
Not the first time I've seen it said in this thread - and not the first time I've failed to see a response from the OP on a well-put-forth reason that answers their hypothetical question - but the most eloquently, succinctly put.
Cornering will happen. I did it in the first year of WoW for a whole year. Leather was my thing. I made millions and millions by standing at the AH doing what people keep telling you will happen. I even RPed it out while I did it, so everyone knew who I was and what I was doing (if hundreds of stacks of leather under my name wasn't a clue) and still it was oh so simple and lucrative.
Counter-inflatory design of economic systems was a massive thing in the MMO world for at least a decade. Papers were written on it, conferences addressed it and people actually qualified in economics attempted to tackle the problem and did research on it. Andyou know what? ESO isn't perfect, but it's doing OK. The issue is not the system, but the entry barrier to players being able to interact with it. More traders, public guild listings that anyone can join - those are solutions (not saying they're the solutions, just plucked them out of the air). A global AH might look like a solution, but it's one that will absolutely devestate the economy.
Sometimes it's a good idea to listen to those who know what they're talking about.Currently obsessed with battlegrounds. Spamming here between rounds. Sometimes, when forums are particularly good, I skip ballerina around*
*autocorrected nonsense, but it sounds amusing enough to me that I've taken up ballet4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MarbleQuiche wrote: »AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »
In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.
Not sure if any of that is true, it's not hard to get into a good trading guild and I know a lot of people that are in 3 or 4 at a time. This whole "Silent Majority" is just an empty, oxymoron rhetorical flourish.
From a market perspective what will happen is high-liquidity commoditized items will drop in price, low-liquidity specialized items will go up in price. With greater price availability spreads will narrow on high liquidity items, and on low-liquidity items spreads will evaporate as smart traders sweep low prices and post size at a higher price. Price laddering for low liquidity items will be staggered only by a margin slightly higher than the transnational cost of posting an item in that price range. From a guy who worked as a position trader at a bulge bracket BD for many years I can tell you with confidence this is exactly how it will work out.
Having a disorganized market is much better for this game, the social value trading guilds bring to this game has vastly more value to the game's creators than any price improvement on gold transactions is going to have on the player-base, assuming those kinds of apples to oranges comparisons are even a consideration.
^^That^^
Not the first time I've seen it said in this thread - and not the first time I've failed to see a response from the OP on a well-put-forth reason that answers their hypothetical question - but the most eloquently, succinctly put.
Cornering will happen. I did it in the first year of WoW for a whole year. Leather was my thing. I made millions and millions by standing at the AH doing what people keep telling you will happen. I even RPed it out while I did it, so everyone knew who I was and what I was doing (if hundreds of stacks of leather under my name wasn't a clue) and still it was oh so simple and lucrative.
Counter-inflatory design of economic systems was a massive thing in the MMO world for at least a decade. Papers were written on it, conferences addressed it and people actually qualified in economics attempted to tackle the problem and did research on it. Andyou know what? ESO isn't perfect, but it's doing OK. The issue is not the system, but the entry barrier to players being able to interact with it. More traders, public guild listings that anyone can join - those are solutions (not saying they're the solutions, just plucked them out of the air). A global AH might look like a solution, but it's one that will absolutely devestate the economy.
Sometimes it's a good idea to listen to those who know what they're talking about.
It's one of the reasons Zos chose the current system. That and they wanted more of a social economy, hence guilds as the foundation.
I understand some don't like it for whatever reason but that's not a reason to abaondnot m the current system. If Zos changed things just because someone posted a thread (over simplification) most of us would no longer want to play this game since it would no longer be like ESO.1 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Kurkikohtaus
Okay, fine. I'll answer your original hypothetical question. The global auction house would gradually beat out the guild traders. Why? Because the vast majority of people always want to take the shortest and easiest way to do everything. It's just human nature.
But my position remains unchanged. I and many others on here do not think it would be healthy for the game economy. It is a good thing that the guild traders have a barrier to use as a sell point. For any semi active player 5+ hours a week, it should be pretty easy to get a in a guild with a decent location. I often see advertisements for trade guilds in Mournhold, Elden Root, Craglorn, etc with very modest or NO sale requirements, and lets be fair... if people have as much sellable items as you claim, you should easily hit any sale requirement while your inventory supply lasts... at which point you no longer need the trade guild so you can leave and pick up another guild later.
Really the most common complaint about the current system I see is from the console players that cannot filter search results. This is a fair complaint and I think it is the only aspect of guild trading that ZOS needs to improve for the console crowd only. AwesomeGuildStores is literally the standard that they should apply for consoles.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
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Original Addons:
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Bot Scanner 2000
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Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter0 -
Kay1✭✭✭✭✭
✭AH thread *** ALERT ***
Get ready to put in the motd of your trading guild the link to this thread and ask them to dislike it, fast before Zenimax comes.K1 The Big Monkey1 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »And then as soon as the price dropped enough....someone comes along with 20 million gold, buys all the tempering alloys and jacks up the price 500% and reslists them.
The market cannot be cornered in this way, because there is a constant and never ending influx of newly farmed resources that can be put on sale. Gold upgrade crafting mats SEEM scarce now, because:
1 - they are hard to shop for as a buyer with the current system
2 - the ones that are on sale are but a small fraction of what the player base has in its inventories but doesn't bother to sell given the limitations of the current system
But on an open market, where EVERYBODY could list them, and continue to list them every time one was extracted ... the market simply cannot be cornered with tens of thousands of people extracting and listing an ever-replenishing supply of commodities.
On what platform are upgrade marterials scarce? Atari?
I am swimming in them, and it doesn't make sense considering the market price is like half what it was months ago. If they were scarce temps would still be like 10k.
0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭A lot of people in this thread are neglecting the fact that the supply would increase on most items drastically just because of ease of access, when they make their argument. And they keep doing it. Obtuse, is the word that comes to mind.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malibulove wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:
What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?
My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.
In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.
And then as soon as the price dropped enough....someone comes along with 20 million gold, buys all the tempering alloys and jacks up the price 500% and reslists them. They cant do that now without visiting each and every guild trader. Rinse and repeat for every high demand item.
Lol people always say this, but I think you forget that an individual only has 30 listings.
If the floodgates were opened it wouldn't matter if you had infinite money it would be your 30 listings vs Millions. Even if you could buy up every single item and had inventory space for it somehow, the fact you couldn't sell but 0.0001% of it at a time would mean the market would continue to bottom out.
The only reason re-selling works now, is because the good sales spots are hard capped at 15,000, and most the playerbase has no selling power.
Depends how you're packaging stuff, and what you're selling. I mean, I usually sell Kutas in packages of 5, and most gold upgrade mats in packages of 8. Saves on slots.
That won't stop demand though, if 1000 players need Kuta, it's irrelevant how you package it you can't meet that demand no matter how much you buy and resell.
My point is power users impact the market less in an AH system, not more.
If 1000 players need Kuta the auction house is the perfect system to inflate prices. Buy the low priced ones and either relist them at a higher price or sit on them. Two or three people can watch the auction house for a couple of days and really force the price up simply by purchasing the lower priced Kuta. Once the price increases enough for a decent profit come in just under the artificial price you just created and sell like crazy. It isn't hard to do at all with only a few people willing to work together when everything is listed in one place. Power players will dominate an auction house or at least select items in the auction house. Scattering the product across many independent vendors helps slow the power players down but even with that there have been a few minor successes at manipulating prices on mid range items. One was when some players on the PTS realized there would be an increased demand for a particular item after an upgrade and went on a buying spree before the launch. Was a minor inconvenience for a few days with traders would have been a much greater problem had there been one central location.
90 Slots won't inflate anything though.
2 or 3 players can't impact anything because a couple dozen undercuts will pop up for every price guage they try to run.
A handful of players simply don't have enough sale slots to meet the demand of all materials and items, the market will bypass them with ease.
I think you may have missed a critical portion of how supply and demand work.
You see, supply is what drives the price down. So, if there's a lot of something available, then it will be cheaper than if it's rare or relatively rare.
Demand drives the price up. So if people want or need something, that increases its value.
So, if you can artificially deplete the supply, while demand remains the same, the price will go up. The market won't, "bypass," this, because the supply is still diminished, and as a result the price will remain high.
What would happen in the scenario above, is other players would undercut the players doing the manipulation, but not by a significant enough margin to offset the increased prices. So, sure, you'd see someone undercutting their Kuta costs by 5 or even 15 gold. On an item they inflated from 2k to 5k. Yeah, that's a real victory there.
The problem is, for most traders, the prices people are listing something at becomes a guide to what you can charge for it. Someone who sufficiently skews the market doesn't ever need to satisfy demand. Eventually they'll want to dump their stock for maximum effect, but once they've forced the price up, they don't need to worry about other players undercutting them by a serious margin, in quantities sufficient to tank the value. Eventually the price would normalize back down, as the supply recovered, but that could take quite some time.
People undercut each other for 100 gold yet you seem to believe in an AH system people wouldn't undercut if it made them tens of millions?
You would pay tens of thousands of gold to list an item for 500%, whats to stop people from listing the same item for 499%? In that scenario those players would cost you millions of gold, because you would be forced to constantly cancel your trades or else spend 30 days maxed out not selling anything.
In the current system nothing stops you, you're at max competing against 499 other players.
In an AH system, you would be competing against every other player.
Really consider the difference, not a couple hundred but a couple million people could undercut you. Most items would be worth 0 gold in no time at all.
Two quick things.
The degree to which you undercut the current market value of an item is informed by your access to market data. Right now that means using an addon like TTC to estimate what people are charging, and making a guess. If you homogenize the entire trade system into a single interface, that information would be directly in front of every player at any given moment. Leading to much smaller undercutting thresholds.
Now, you're right, partially, you would see people undercutting by 100g occasionally, but supply and demand do still hold sway, and you wouldn't see the market "bypassing," manipulation by continuing to charge the old prices while the supply is choked off.
Second, you're currently in competition with a maximum of 88,499 players (or something close to that). (I mean, personally, I'm taking up two of those slots, and I know I'm not the only one, so the real number is lower). That's one of the things people are complaining about in these posts, by the way. If you're in a guild with a public trader, you're not just in competition with other members of your guild, you're in competition with every other guild that has a kiosk in the game. That is way more than just 500 players. (And yeah, the currently available traders allow for somewhere north of 80k players to list their wares,) which is part of why this isn't as exclusive a club as some people like to make it out to be.0 -
Malibulove✭✭✭CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:
What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?
My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.
In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.
And then as soon as the price dropped enough....someone comes along with 20 million gold, buys all the tempering alloys and jacks up the price 500% and reslists them. They cant do that now without visiting each and every guild trader. Rinse and repeat for every high demand item.
Lol people always say this, but I think you forget that an individual only has 30 listings.
If the floodgates were opened it wouldn't matter if you had infinite money it would be your 30 listings vs Millions. Even if you could buy up every single item and had inventory space for it somehow, the fact you couldn't sell but 0.0001% of it at a time would mean the market would continue to bottom out.
The only reason re-selling works now, is because the good sales spots are hard capped at 15,000, and most the playerbase has no selling power.
Depends how you're packaging stuff, and what you're selling. I mean, I usually sell Kutas in packages of 5, and most gold upgrade mats in packages of 8. Saves on slots.
That won't stop demand though, if 1000 players need Kuta, it's irrelevant how you package it you can't meet that demand no matter how much you buy and resell.
My point is power users impact the market less in an AH system, not more.
If 1000 players need Kuta the auction house is the perfect system to inflate prices. Buy the low priced ones and either relist them at a higher price or sit on them. Two or three people can watch the auction house for a couple of days and really force the price up simply by purchasing the lower priced Kuta. Once the price increases enough for a decent profit come in just under the artificial price you just created and sell like crazy. It isn't hard to do at all with only a few people willing to work together when everything is listed in one place. Power players will dominate an auction house or at least select items in the auction house. Scattering the product across many independent vendors helps slow the power players down but even with that there have been a few minor successes at manipulating prices on mid range items. One was when some players on the PTS realized there would be an increased demand for a particular item after an upgrade and went on a buying spree before the launch. Was a minor inconvenience for a few days with traders would have been a much greater problem had there been one central location.
90 Slots won't inflate anything though.
2 or 3 players can't impact anything because a couple dozen undercuts will pop up for every price guage they try to run.
A handful of players simply don't have enough sale slots to meet the demand of all materials and items, the market will bypass them with ease.
I think you may have missed a critical portion of how supply and demand work.
You see, supply is what drives the price down. So, if there's a lot of something available, then it will be cheaper than if it's rare or relatively rare.
Demand drives the price up. So if people want or need something, that increases its value.
So, if you can artificially deplete the supply, while demand remains the same, the price will go up. The market won't, "bypass," this, because the supply is still diminished, and as a result the price will remain high.
What would happen in the scenario above, is other players would undercut the players doing the manipulation, but not by a significant enough margin to offset the increased prices. So, sure, you'd see someone undercutting their Kuta costs by 5 or even 15 gold. On an item they inflated from 2k to 5k. Yeah, that's a real victory there.
The problem is, for most traders, the prices people are listing something at becomes a guide to what you can charge for it. Someone who sufficiently skews the market doesn't ever need to satisfy demand. Eventually they'll want to dump their stock for maximum effect, but once they've forced the price up, they don't need to worry about other players undercutting them by a serious margin, in quantities sufficient to tank the value. Eventually the price would normalize back down, as the supply recovered, but that could take quite some time.
People undercut each other for 100 gold yet you seem to believe in an AH system people wouldn't undercut if it made them tens of millions?
You would pay tens of thousands of gold to list an item for 500%, whats to stop people from listing the same item for 499%? In that scenario those players would cost you millions of gold, because you would be forced to constantly cancel your trades or else spend 30 days maxed out not selling anything.
In the current system nothing stops you, you're at max competing against 499 other players.
In an AH system, you would be competing against every other player.
Really consider the difference, not a couple hundred but a couple million people could undercut you. Most items would be worth 0 gold in no time at all.
Do you honestly think casuals have enough items and or gold to tank prices? Could I manage it with my (approximately) 12 of each gold upgrade mat and 20 kutas?
What they contribute to the GAH will be equivalent to a fish pissing in the ocean. Then the Sharks will roll along and take all of the deals that are there, because the have the gold and enjoy playing with the economy.
That's not how buying and re-selling works though. What you're advocating is a good way to lose all your gold (in fact your exact strategy is how Gold-buyers used to go broke in WoW thinking they could spend some $ to make endless ingame gold).
You buy low and sell at Market (or above Market if Trade stalls are out of stock).
With an AH, there would never be that out of stock. Seriously look at TTC for common items, look at how many daily listings there are for stuff like Kuta and realize with an AH it would be 1000x that.
It wouldn't matter if the sellers were casual or not because literally any random level 10 with a Kuta could become your competition. And remember you only have 30 slots, so the more gold you spend trying to "corner" the market, the bigger your backlog becomes.
In fact a better argument against an AH would be gold would become too useless, because the megaservers are too populous and having everything sell "at cost" leaves little room for actual profit.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malibulove wrote: »CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Malibulove wrote: »Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Many threads have been born about the lack of a global Auction House, they die, and then invariably resurface. We all know the "for" and "against" arguments in an EITHER / OR context, but let's take a look at the situation through a hypothetical scenario:
What would happen if ZOS did indeed introduce a global, server-wide one-stop auction house, the type found in WoW and SWTOR? And what if it was introduced IN PARALLEL to the existing system, so that they coincided?
My prediction is this: the thousands upon thousands of people who do not have access to good trading guilds would begin to sell their wares en masse in the new auction house, people would be undercutting each other on an hourly basis and prices for commodities and items alike would plummet due to their sheer availability. In a very short time, no one would visit guild traders anymore, because you would be guaranteed a lower price and a much more user-friendly search mechanism (with add-on help, of course) than at a trader.
In short, regardless of the positives that the guild trader system brings, the silent majority that vastly outnumbers the vocal few who support the guild trader mechanism would finally make their voice heard by selling commodities and items CHEAPLY and TO ALL on the open market.
And then as soon as the price dropped enough....someone comes along with 20 million gold, buys all the tempering alloys and jacks up the price 500% and reslists them. They cant do that now without visiting each and every guild trader. Rinse and repeat for every high demand item.
Lol people always say this, but I think you forget that an individual only has 30 listings.
If the floodgates were opened it wouldn't matter if you had infinite money it would be your 30 listings vs Millions. Even if you could buy up every single item and had inventory space for it somehow, the fact you couldn't sell but 0.0001% of it at a time would mean the market would continue to bottom out.
The only reason re-selling works now, is because the good sales spots are hard capped at 15,000, and most the playerbase has no selling power.
Depends how you're packaging stuff, and what you're selling. I mean, I usually sell Kutas in packages of 5, and most gold upgrade mats in packages of 8. Saves on slots.
That won't stop demand though, if 1000 players need Kuta, it's irrelevant how you package it you can't meet that demand no matter how much you buy and resell.
My point is power users impact the market less in an AH system, not more.
If 1000 players need Kuta the auction house is the perfect system to inflate prices. Buy the low priced ones and either relist them at a higher price or sit on them. Two or three people can watch the auction house for a couple of days and really force the price up simply by purchasing the lower priced Kuta. Once the price increases enough for a decent profit come in just under the artificial price you just created and sell like crazy. It isn't hard to do at all with only a few people willing to work together when everything is listed in one place. Power players will dominate an auction house or at least select items in the auction house. Scattering the product across many independent vendors helps slow the power players down but even with that there have been a few minor successes at manipulating prices on mid range items. One was when some players on the PTS realized there would be an increased demand for a particular item after an upgrade and went on a buying spree before the launch. Was a minor inconvenience for a few days with traders would have been a much greater problem had there been one central location.
90 Slots won't inflate anything though.
2 or 3 players can't impact anything because a couple dozen undercuts will pop up for every price guage they try to run.
A handful of players simply don't have enough sale slots to meet the demand of all materials and items, the market will bypass them with ease.
I think you may have missed a critical portion of how supply and demand work.
You see, supply is what drives the price down. So, if there's a lot of something available, then it will be cheaper than if it's rare or relatively rare.
Demand drives the price up. So if people want or need something, that increases its value.
So, if you can artificially deplete the supply, while demand remains the same, the price will go up. The market won't, "bypass," this, because the supply is still diminished, and as a result the price will remain high.
What would happen in the scenario above, is other players would undercut the players doing the manipulation, but not by a significant enough margin to offset the increased prices. So, sure, you'd see someone undercutting their Kuta costs by 5 or even 15 gold. On an item they inflated from 2k to 5k. Yeah, that's a real victory there.
The problem is, for most traders, the prices people are listing something at becomes a guide to what you can charge for it. Someone who sufficiently skews the market doesn't ever need to satisfy demand. Eventually they'll want to dump their stock for maximum effect, but once they've forced the price up, they don't need to worry about other players undercutting them by a serious margin, in quantities sufficient to tank the value. Eventually the price would normalize back down, as the supply recovered, but that could take quite some time.
People undercut each other for 100 gold yet you seem to believe in an AH system people wouldn't undercut if it made them tens of millions?
You would pay tens of thousands of gold to list an item for 500%, whats to stop people from listing the same item for 499%? In that scenario those players would cost you millions of gold, because you would be forced to constantly cancel your trades or else spend 30 days maxed out not selling anything.
In the current system nothing stops you, you're at max competing against 499 other players.
In an AH system, you would be competing against every other player.
Really consider the difference, not a couple hundred but a couple million people could undercut you. Most items would be worth 0 gold in no time at all.
Do you honestly think casuals have enough items and or gold to tank prices? Could I manage it with my (approximately) 12 of each gold upgrade mat and 20 kutas?
What they contribute to the GAH will be equivalent to a fish pissing in the ocean. Then the Sharks will roll along and take all of the deals that are there, because the have the gold and enjoy playing with the economy.
That's not how buying and re-selling works though. What you're advocating is a good way to lose all your gold (in fact your exact strategy is how Gold-buyers used to go broke in WoW thinking they could spend some $ to make endless ingame gold).
You buy low and sell at Market (or above Market if Trade stalls are out of stock).
With an AH, there would never be that out of stock. Seriously look at TTC for common items, look at how many daily listings there are for stuff like Kuta and realize with an AH it would be 1000x that.
It wouldn't matter if the sellers were casual or not because literally any random level 10 with a Kuta could become your competition. And remember you only have 30 slots, so the more gold you spend trying to "corner" the market, the bigger your backlog becomes.
In fact a better argument against an AH would be gold would become too useless, because the megaservers are too populous and having everything sell "at cost" leaves little room for actual profit.
Just a quick point of order, how many people do you think actually play ESO? I mean, all things being equal, for a unified AH to have 1k times the volume, that would require that traders make up about .1% of the game's population. (Less, really, but still.)
There's about 80k available slots for players to sell their crap publicly.
That means, everything being equal, that you believe there's an 8 million player base just waiting in the wings to jump onto a communal auction house and sell all their crap too.
I mean, they did say they have 8.5 million accounts now, but that's not players logging in every day. That's people who bought the game at some point. It's also people who actually play, but, they're not the entirety of that number. EDIT: It's also people from all three platforms, come to think of it, to say nothing of the server split between EU and NA.Edited by starkerealm on June 23, 2017 11:56PM0 -
Kurkikohtaus✭✭✭TL;DR
My intention in starting this thread was to create a Thought Experiment that could be used to show that the argument that "The Majority" of players prefer the current guild-trader system over the concept of an Open Global Auction House is baseless and illogical.
--- --- --- --- --- ---
Having read through the entire thread and replied to what I could (given time constraints), I would now love to re-write that first original post in its entirety, because I wish I could have organized my thinking better, but such is the way of developing forum discussions. In the coming days I will unfortunately not have too much time to read the forums, so I am going to leave this thread with the following parting thoughts.
My initial impulse in creating this thread was NOT to further hash out the pros and cons of a Global Auction House vs. the current guild-trader system. The purpose was much more narrow: I wanted to defeat the argument that supporters of the guild-trader system often use on the forums, that the "majority of players" prefer the current system. This argument is a thought-terminating cliché rooted in Perception Bias that has no basis in fact or logic. The dozens, perhaps even hundreds of people who have voiced their support for the current system in forum discussions in no way constitute a representative sample of ESO's active-player-population, the vast majority of which do not post on the forums.
To defeat this argument, in hopes that better arguments and discussions would ensue, I proposed this Thought Experiment first and foremost for the consideration of those players who DO support the guild-trader system. I wanted to show that if we could reasonably envision that people would, in this hypothetical scenario, move away from the current system (by choice) and embrace a Global Auction House, with all its pitfalls and problems which I admit are there, then that would mean that the majority in fact does not favour the current system, however unwise and detrimental to the game's economy that may be. The in-game majority would gravitate to the new GAH, and those who do prefer the older system would do so as well, out of necessity.
The discussion that ensued here over the merits and detriments of an open GAH are all valid and relevant. Market cornering, some prices plummeting while others skyrocket, problems with server load and many other issues are all reasonable concerns. In fact, although I think the current system is terrible, I am not really a supporter for the implementation of an open GAH, as I believe the change-over would cause too many problems.
But I detest the claim that "the majority" wants it the way it is, because that claim is baseless and illogical.Edited by Kurkikohtaus on June 24, 2017 12:39PM2 -
Eleusian✭✭✭It would end monopoly of the few , allow efficient shopping , and allow more people to participate. So it must never happen
PS4 NA2 -
Demycilian✭✭✭✭Cant help but think that ZOS likes to exclude the wider playerbase. :P Applies to pvp, in how they took the line of the AC exploiters. Which did nothing but help turn people away. Same with trade, where they have a minority ruin it for the rest of us.
Dear ZOS,
. that dot is the ESO player retention (or lack thereof)
. that's your stance on crucial issues
Please connect.0