THE PROCALYPSE

Minno · June 2017

I use valkyn skoria and I think it could be toned down. For free DMG, 6% proc rate is good enough so nothing should be procing at 10% or 8%.

Viper shouldn't be more than 2k before resistance if it wants to be 10% on every DMG source.

Nerf! We will be fine.

rfennell_ESO · June 2017

There has, is and likely will always be a problem with procs and bar swaps.

Nearly all double procs, exploited procs or whatever are done with barswaps.

Want widowmaker to proc at range, bar swap.

I'd say fix these issues and then assess how broken procs are.

Viper shouldn't be a 4 seconds cooldown regardless, it's too powerful like that. It allows for a cancerous play style that is basically Crit charge (viper)->cc/execute spam->dodge roll->streak/cloak/another dodge roll... back up and do it all again(and in the case of streak/dodge roll not have to back up).

Emmagoldman · June 2017

Jules, what do you think of an added cost? For example, each lroc costs stam or mag. You get a free hit but your going to use resources faster.

So now you would choose between high burst through proc with high cost of resources or weapon dmg sets with more sustain

ManDraKE · June 2017

The problem with this kind of topics is that nobody knows how to fix proc sets. Removing the proc sets of the game, or nerfing the damage to the point where they are useless is not a solution, ZoS has said multiples times that they want to keep them viable and i don't disagree, building for max-stats shouldn't be the only option in the game (specially when some classes benefit more than others from that type of build). Procs set could be an interesting variant to build diversity (not in the current state ofc)

Things like "-50% dmg reduction of proc in cyrodrill" with battlespirt are not solutions, in fact they are quite dumb suggestions if you ask me. @Gilliamtherogue post is a good approach of how to aim to a solution.
First the should rework the mechanic of those sets in a way that they remain viable for upfront dmg, but they don't overperform like they do know. Once that is set, they should remove the non-crit bandit the put a few patches ago, is counter-intuitive and there is no reason for proc sets to ignore one of the most basics combat mechanics of any MMO.
They should also implement some new mechanic to avoid multiple procs in a single hit, i suggested a while ago that proc sets should only proc on weapon/class abilities (capped at 1 proc per ability activation), and not proc from LA/HA/BASH, that would remove many of the problems with proc sets while keeping them viable (you could still run multiple proc sets if you like, but only one would proc at a time, and not everything in 1 click)

Xvorg · June 2017

Funny build on proc: LA dunmer bowblade: 5h- 1l-1m/2l

5 pieces elegance
5 pieces WoF
1 Kena/Kra'gh/Master bow
1 Oblivion glyph - Sharpen or infused bow (if it's not a master bow).

Bar 1: p injection/cloak/vigor/Camo hunter-Mark/Relentless U Meteor

Rotation: Relentless -> poison injection -> La -> La -> La -> La -> La -> Assa scourge (meteor)

Run in a zerg and get izi AP...

Irylia · June 2017

You can still be competitive without submitting to the proc meta. Every real competitive e sport will have metas or strong picks and they will make it easier to perform but this doesn't prevent actually competitive and skilled players from competing at an equal or superior level.

If anything procs inflate what skill actually is and make worse players better, not through ones own skill but just from having extra damage that they would otherwise not combo in as fast via a light bash weave or heavy before incap etc.

Makes my life brutal as a msorc but it doesn't stop me from being better or competitive. It does make being xv1'd cancer.

Also, this game is far from actual competitive gameplay. No ranked system, no balanced gear/classes. Rng system is rampant when it comes to hitting someone or not.
Can't be a competitive game when rng shuffle has no downtime other than your inability to cast it. How can you judge or base skill when a player gets free mitigation without having to avoid or mit it themselves a short cool down or up time I can see shuffle being fine but it's too long.

umagon · June 2017

From my perspective these sets are a part of their efforts to increase revenue by using the “power up mechanic” in part to process the vertical progression without introducing new item champion levels. With the power up mechanic players get increased power for a limited time. By introducing greater versions of these it allows them to make money by placing them in down loadable content and/or expansions. Similar to what they did with Velidreth, what they do is place some of these type items in places where players already have access to like tremorscale for example to introduce the player into the “power up mechanic” in hopes they will seek those items out.

Rather if it’s because the player wants to stay competitive with everyone else or just wants to increase their power it doesn’t matter in the end long as they willing to pay to do so. With pvp things are different it’s hard to create content for pvp that players are willing to pay for and they can be sure they will get a good return on their investment. This is because players tend to create their own pvp content through interaction with other players. These can be friendly or non-friendly rivalries for example.

So often the easiest way to do this is to create a situation where pvp players need items of power in order stay competitive with other players. Basically, to create a power chase the same way that is done in pve. This gives them the opportunity to capitalize on it by placing those items in down loadable content and/or expansions. A good example was the first version of Kightslayer where the amount of damage was based on 10% health.

And even though the number was adjusted if you looked on some of the traders during the first few days when the expansion came out it was of one of the highest valued sets per piece. So zos creating the mindset that the item set had great amounts of value worked, maybe not on everyone but enough to increase revenue potential. Although I don’t think we will ever know if they hit their targeted figures or not.

Also, I don’t think the sets are going away as long as there significant profits to be made from creating them. You have remember anything they do is related to making profits. This isn’t the 90s gaming industry anymore it’s not about fun or inventive creativity anymore. It’s about what sells and makes the most profit. And if there are a few detractors it doesn’t matter as long as profits are unaffected.

Takllin · June 2017

I got crit charged by 2 players and was at 10% health. Viper, viper, red mountain, etc. I'm a big fan of using abilities to deal damage, but I'm not sure why.

rimmidimdim · June 2017

akray21 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Agreed on the problem. But isn't there a simpler solution? Enable CP in Battlegrounds. Proc sets are far less effective when CP can take effect.

Then people like me at 300 CP won't be able to play at all...

This is a good point too. Can't forget about new or casual players too.

QuebraRegra · June 2017

Irylia wrote: »

You can still be competitive without submitting to the proc meta. Every real competitive e sport will have metas or strong picks and they will make it easier to perform but this doesn't prevent actually competitive and skilled players from competing at an equal or superior level.

If anything procs inflate what skill actually is and make worse players better, not through ones own skill but just from having extra damage that they would otherwise not combo in as fast via a light bash weave or heavy before incap etc.

Makes my life brutal as a msorc but it doesn't stop me from being better or competitive. It does make being xv1'd cancer.

Also, this game is far from actual competitive gameplay. No ranked system, no balanced gear/classes. Rng system is rampant when it comes to hitting someone or not.
Can't be a competitive game when rng shuffle has no downtime other than your inability to cast it. How can you judge or base skill when a player gets free mitigation without having to avoid or mit it themselves a short cool down or up time I can see shuffle being fine but it's too long.

The problem is people are treating this like an "e-sport" (ridiculous) when it should be treated like an RPG. Too many COD kidz.

Own · June 2017

Have we left the Stampocalypse? I was expecting Elder Robes Online.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2017

@Jules

Jules, I was one of the 1st people to receive closed beta invite for the closed Morrowind PTS, and within the 1st day, @Minno and myself posted a thread in the private Morrowind Forum titled "Proc Sets, Sustian Sets, and Poisons need to Revisted"

I told them within the 1st day of the PTS that proc sets like Viper, Velidreth, Widowmaker, Tremorscale, etc needed to be adjusted an accounted for in No-CP and No-CP Battle Grounds, and that Poisons needed to be revisited as the 30% increase cost, when taken in to account they raised ability costs, reduced cost reduction and regen from armor makes those poisons every bit as bad as the 60% poisons were since DB through Homestead which were equally broken in No-CP. It was ignored.

Now here we are with the hens coming to roost. I get ZERO pleasure out of being right about stuff like this. There is a reason i try and point these things out weeks...sometimes months before they become a problem, but the feedback is often ignored, and so here we are...with a MAJOR problem on our hands.

ZOS will have to do something to fix it, no doubt about that, but I wouldn't expect a fix anytime soon. Itemization is still been an issue since post One Tamriel. It allows all these truly ridiclious setups.

As for the argument between choosing to be sportsmanship and competitiveness, I am not going to get into that because thats more of an ethics discussion. If you respect your opponents you will be sportsman like, if not, you won't...if two players wearing proc sets fight its probably sportsman since your both at the same level....at the end of the day everyone has to make their own call and be their own person on that, no juding here.

All the best Jules, maybe something will get done about this, but I am not holding my breath.

arkansas_ESO · June 2017

Can we just reset it to the Thieves Guild or Orsinium patch? A lot of the stuff introduced between then and now (poisons, Purifying Light/Power of the Light buff, Knight Slayer, heavy armor buffs, Tremorscale, Selene's, Viper buff, Red Mountain, Velidreth, Widowmaker, Valkyn buff, animation system changes) have made the game far less fun IMO.

DeadlyRecluse · June 2017

A few other ideas for balancing proc sets:
1. Proc sets should require specific build decisions to use. For example, Skoria only procs on dots and has a low chance, so it requires a dot heavy build and a player that maintains high dot uptime. velidreth, on the other hand, procs "on damage" and has an insanely high proc chance--so it requires ZERO build adjustments or playstyle changes.
2. Proc sets should scale off of...something. It's been said before in this thread, but enabling players to go full tanky and throw on one proc set to enable decent damage is lazy at best.
3. Proc sets should have counterplay. Velidreth is actually my favorite example of counterplay done right--it hits hard, but is pretty easy to avoid outside of a gank. Viper, on the other hand, has literally zero counterplay--you just take damage.

Waffennacht · June 2017

Can Skoria and Winterborn compare to the Stam proc sets?

DeadlyRecluse · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can Skoria and Winterborn compare to the Stam proc sets?

Skoria is close, but requires you to build around it, at least to some degree. Winterborn suffers hard from the old Nerieneth issue--the damage is really telegraphed, AND you REALLY have to build for it.

The stam sets (besides tremorscale and maybe red mountain) can be slapped on any build.

Minno · June 2017

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Can we just reset it to the Thieves Guild or Orsinium patch? A lot of the stuff introduced between then and now (poisons, Purifying Light/Power of the Light buff, Knight Slayer, heavy armor buffs, Tremorscale, Selene's, Viper buff, Red Mountain, Velidreth, Widowmaker, Valkyn buff, animation system changes) have made the game far less fun IMO.

Well final DMG of power of the light should be dodged. It's not hard to cc the player before it ticks to keep that DMG on them.

But then again, the templar has to use Dawnbreaker to get that cc because they nerfed blazing Spears....

Kilandros · June 2017

I just don't understand why ZOS is so attached to having proc sets in the game. This isn't Diablo.

krathos · June 2017

I've mentioned this before but I'd like to see all proc sets just become DoTs. If anything, that boosts them for PvE where they're not even really all that popular to begin with and completely negates their burst potential and provides some semblance of counterplay.

Instead of viper doing 7k damage every four seconds just make it do 7k damage over 4 seconds. Doesn't make them useless but gets rid of this stupid burst meta around procs.

For myself, procs make the game extremely boring. Running proc sets makes PLAYING your character boring which is why i have mostly avoided them thus far. These sets have always been this powerful in no-cp, though, so this isn't much news to people who primarily play no-cp like myself. Getting zerged down by an army of mindless players in viper + veli/tremor/selenes is nothing new but BGs just makes it way more obvious how big a problem it is. This is also what happens when you balance around CP PvP, PvE, and forget about balancing No-CP which is now the most popular form of overall PvP (no-cp campaigns and bgs are both very popular).

Docmandu · June 2017

Even if they were to finally acknowledge they royally screwed up PvP with proc sets (and poisons)... it would still take them 3 months to do anything about it, since they only ever do sh.t in big code dumps... and then they'd break stuff and delay the fix for the next code dump after that... so realistically, any fix will take like 6 months.

GrimJaw · June 2017

Docmandu wrote: »

Even if they were to finally acknowledge they royally screwed up PvP with proc sets (and poisons)... it would still take them 3 months to do anything about it, since they only ever do sh.t in big code dumps... and then they'd break stuff and delay the fix for the next code dump after that... so realistically, any fix will take like 6 months.

This^ and dont forget when they finally do something, it will be a blanket nerf. Not really fixing the problem. I suggest you all get your procs off.

Xvorg · June 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

I just don't understand why ZOS is so attached to having proc sets in the game. This isn't Diablo.

Maybe they wanted to make Diablo II AvAvA

BraidasNM · June 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As if you wouldn't see the same crap on your recap if you sport max cheese... As someone who has actually competed in truely competitive scenarios, IRL and online, I can tell you that my self-respect and respect of athletes I value is worth far more to me than instablowing scrubs every day or using shady tactics IRL, "m8".

its not actlly cheating tho, just using bis. if you wanna go irl with it, ppl say jon jones trying to kick nikkas knees out is a dirty tactic. but hes the champ (well, undefeated at least) and the other guys fade away and no one cares. you feel me m9?

Darlgon · June 2017

This discussion has made me wonder.

Is there a complete list of proc sets somewhere?

Minno · June 2017

BraidasNM wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As if you wouldn't see the same crap on your recap if you sport max cheese... As someone who has actually competed in truely competitive scenarios, IRL and online, I can tell you that my self-respect and respect of athletes I value is worth far more to me than instablowing scrubs every day or using shady tactics IRL, "m8".

its not actlly cheating tho, just using bis. if you wanna go irl with it, ppl say jon jones trying to kick nikkas knees out is a dirty tactic. but hes the champ (well, undefeated at least) and the other guys fade away and no one cares. you feel me m9?

Except people will remember Derek Jeter forever for the sportsmanship he brought to baseball while idiots on the same team that took performance drugs get thrown to the wayside. Context is powerful.

BraidasNM · June 2017

Minno wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As if you wouldn't see the same crap on your recap if you sport max cheese... As someone who has actually competed in truely competitive scenarios, IRL and online, I can tell you that my self-respect and respect of athletes I value is worth far more to me than instablowing scrubs every day or using shady tactics IRL, "m8".

its not actlly cheating tho, just using bis. if you wanna go irl with it, ppl say jon jones trying to kick nikkas knees out is a dirty tactic. but hes the champ (well, undefeated at least) and the other guys fade away and no one cares. you feel me m9?

Except people will remember Derek Jeter forever for the sportsmanship he brought to baseball while idiots on the same team that took performance drugs get thrown to the wayside. Context is powerful.

see but performance enchancing drugs are literally cheating. thts like turning on CE

Zander98 · June 2017

I've always felt that proc sets should scale off of damage like abilities.
Take the toolkit from viper. I'm fine with that base number for someone running an all damage no sustain build.
But lower damage sustaining builds the proc damage should scale down. The current toolkit numbers should be the high end possibilities with everything curving down from there.

rfennell_ESO · June 2017

BraidasNM wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As if you wouldn't see the same crap on your recap if you sport max cheese... As someone who has actually competed in truely competitive scenarios, IRL and online, I can tell you that my self-respect and respect of athletes I value is worth far more to me than instablowing scrubs every day or using shady tactics IRL, "m8".

its not actlly cheating tho, just using bis. if you wanna go irl with it, ppl say jon jones trying to kick nikkas knees out is a dirty tactic. but hes the champ (well, undefeated at least) and the other guys fade away and no one cares. you feel me m9?

You know jones was suspended for PED's right?

Oh and was also suspended for a hit and run where he fled the scene leaving a pregnant woman injured in the other car.

Undefeated isn't going to be his legacy.

Mojomonkeyman · June 2017

BraidasNM wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As if you wouldn't see the same crap on your recap if you sport max cheese... As someone who has actually competed in truely competitive scenarios, IRL and online, I can tell you that my self-respect and respect of athletes I value is worth far more to me than instablowing scrubs every day or using shady tactics IRL, "m8".

its not actlly cheating tho, just using bis. if you wanna go irl with it, ppl say jon jones trying to kick nikkas knees out is a dirty tactic. but hes the champ (well, undefeated at least) and the other guys fade away and no one cares. you feel me m9?

You brought cheating into the context, not me. I was comparing it to shady moves/tactics in the sports I was active in, not outright doping/cheating.

I consider this conversion over. You guys use the word "competitive" quite a lot. I highly doubt you've ever understood what it means or performed in competitive environments at a high level, though. No point in arguing with that.

Aztlan · June 2017

Thank you, Jules. Another sorely conflicted stamina NB agrees 100%.