makreth wrote: »

@CavalryPK If you are to talk about magblades exclusively you should change your thread title to magblade instead of NB. The latter includes both stamblades and magblades. Just a clarification because you started talking in general and then cut it down to magblade only.

He's speaking from his experience with mageblade, but the changes to grim focus apply to both the magicka and stamina morphs. The changes in play style will apply to both classes.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Fasque wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

Sorry for Off-Topic but EXACTLY the mindset like this is the reason why Morrowind turned out to be one of the worst patches in the history of this game.

PVE will struggle not PVP. As long as the power and utility of the class abilities is balanced PVP will always be equal because your opponent has the same benefits or downsides of the patch.

Really...
I'm so done with this community and the fact that always the minorities with the loudest voices getting served.

Shield stackers are annoying, sustain is annoying, burst damage is annoying - I am really wondering why all the PVP guys are still playing PVP since everything seems to be annoying....
Guess what? Sustain issues will be annoying too. Bazinga!

But yea let's just not care about the PVE guys because it's their own fault if they can't beat the content anymore they run on a regulary base before. We have to mention that there are a bunch of dps races in the game mechanics which will just be possible to beat with the highest of the underwhelming numers which we all will pull after next patch.

Sorry for being so bitchy... but what's enough is enough.

Ps. Best would be to make this ability a toggle anyway. Would fit the intention behind the class the best and wouldn't be the pain as it is to cast in a rotation.
Frags of a sorc are autoproc too and way stronger than the spectral bow.

But yea, I guess it would screw up the poor PVP guys, who don't care about the gameplay of teso outside of cyrodiil anyway.

(I'm sorry for this last one...)

The premise of your comment (bolded) is flawed because the classes are not influenced equally by any patch. Therefore some players will take each patch harder than others.

You don't understand PvP balance, and you're just as jaded against PvP as you think some players are against PvE.

I don't think he understands that this change is a buff to dps (pve) and a nerf to burst (pvp).

Most of the pve'ers like that don't realise they are just as bad.

Agreement with both statements. The latter unfortunately goes for most staunchly opinionated people in life.

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

Well, because five light attacks and or five heavy attacks in PvP that connect is harder to do than you think. Then when the proc is up you have to cast it, so then you get cc'd and by the time you recover the 20 seconds is over. At least the way mentioned above gives it an actual chance to be used in PvP. I don't know the right answer but this five hits is a huge Nerf in PvP. It just won't work.

H4RDFOX wrote: »

Well I ran relentless focus and squeezed out 3 spectral bows within the same time on multiple targets in PVE setting. So no, an increase to the buff time is too much. While buff is active I hit targets that were more tankier, and got the same amount of spectral bows; 3. Also, if after you cast grim focus/whatever morph, and you only get 2 spectral bows, then whats the issue with recast? The NB community wanted a change to grim focus, and we got it. The community wanted a change to Heavy attacks/Light attacks, and we got it. ZoS is doing their job.

are you playing stamina or magicka? were you weaving and rotating skills?

rimmidimdim wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

Well, because five light attacks and or five heavy attacks in PvP that connect is harder to do than you think. Then when the proc is up you have to cast it, so then you get cc'd and by the time you recover the 20 seconds is over. At least the way mentioned above gives it an actual chance to be used in PvP. I don't know the right answer but this five hits is a huge Nerf in PvP. It just won't work.

Your light attacks don't have to connect to count toward the proc -- they just have to target an enemy when you fire them. You can wait to fire your proc until you have cc immunity, have cced your opponent(s), or have created some safe distance. And no one obligated you to "have to cast it" when your proc comes up. You don't have to cram multiple bow casts in just because you can next patch, although getting an extra proc or two will be nice given the coming sustain nerfs.

I agree that 5 hits is an unnecessary nerf to PvP, but you have some L2ping to do if you think Merciless is suddenly or has ever been that troublesome in PvP.

So I weaved in light attacks using two abilities, one has a cast time, and the other doesn't, and I am still able to squeeze out 3 bows. So, that fourth one might be a stretch, but I think it can happen. I'm excited to see how well this plays out in Cyro.

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

teach us senpai

Ok.

Grim Focus (including morphs) and Assassin's Will (including Assassin's Scourge) are entirely different abilities. Understanding this is the key to mastering Grim Focus and nightblade as a class. The skill actually works pretty well once you understand its nuances.

Grim Focus is the buff. Assassin's Will is the proc. They have entirely different properties and behaviors, including entirely different tooltips. Proc Assassin's Will, then hover over it on your ability bar. You'll see.

Assassin's Will has a .1 second channel time. This is displayed on the tooltip. Attempting to block, roll dodge, or weapon swap animation cancel Assassin's Will too soon will cut into that channel time, interrupting and cancelling the ability. It's exactly the same as blocking, rolling, or weapon swapping while hard casting Crystal Fragments. You wouldn't do that, would you? Frags isn't considered "clunky" or "inconsistent," is it? Follow the same principles, and Grim Focus won't be either.

Because of the .1 second channel, you also cannot fire the proc at a person who is about to line of sight you. Same as hard casting a Frag at someone about to slip around a tree...if you fire your Assassin's Will or Assassin's Scourge at a target right as they slip around LoS, your proc will vanish.

There is a brief animation after the channel time that can be animation cancelled. It's the part where you raise the big red bow in front of you and fire the shot, and it can be block, roll, or weapon swap cancelled, eliminating much of the flashy animation. I particularly love cancelling my Assassin's Wills while dodging or blocking a Frag, Dizzying Swing, gap closer, or other telegraphed ability in order to take my opponents by surprise and strike them while they go on the offense. Despite the channel time, animation cancelling the proc properly conceals most of its visible animation. However, animation cancel it too soon, and you clip into that channel time and cancel your proc altogether. It takes practice to master, but it's powerful once you've gotten the muscle memory down.

Casting the Grim Focus buff can be fully animation cancelled in any way, concealing that you've recasted it. I animation cancel recasts of the ability in the heat of rapid combos all the time in order to take my opponent by surprise with another Assassin's Will soon after the first.

Your light or heavy attacks do not need to hit the target in order to count toward your proc. As long as you target an enemy while firing the light attacks, they'll count. The opponent can dodge them via rolling or Major Evasion, block them, reflect them, "miss" them via the Blessed set, or even die, and your attacks will still count toward your proc.

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

Assassin's Will and Assassin's Scourge both trigger an audible warning for your target. They both have audio effects for surrounding players and for you, like any ability, but your target gets a special audible queue in addition. It's a louder thump that is unique to these attacks and warns them that the arrow is flying at their face. Try to cc them, hit them in a gap closer or channel, or otherwise take them by surprise to prevent them from dodging or blocking.

And then there's all the standard stuff that everyone should know... Assassin's Scourge is disease damage, which can apply a healing debuff. Assassin's Will applies a (soon to be somewhat less) nasty snare. Assassin's Will deals more damage than Assassin's Scourge. Relentless Focus gives passive stamina regen..... etc etc.

I think that's everything... I might add to this comment later if I remember another detail.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

It's true that you can fire off the arrow a bit after the skill expires, but I think I can't wait that little moment 4 times in a row.
If I can only fire off 3 arrows anyways, I can wait for the 6th weave too.
That was what I want to achieve in my video.

I don't know why they couldn't make firing spectral bow mechanics the same and let the firing of the bow, recast the skill.

This mechanic change only helps off bar PvE. This and path need the 24 second length.

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Well I guess it is a l2p issue then. So my light and heavy attacks count towards the proc as long as I target someone? Even if they roll dodge, dodge, move to far away ect? Even if I'm DW? Is there a distance on this? I guess some practice dummy practice coming up, probably alot of it.

You need to be in range of the opponent. Destro pew pew will count at range if they dodge. Dual wield light attacks will also count if dodged, but you need to be in melee range.

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

I don't know why they couldn't make firing spectral bow mechanics the same and let the firing of the bow, recast the skill.

This mechanic change only helps off bar PvE. This and path need the 24 second length.

hmm. I think he means ... when you fire the spectral bow. it automatically refreshes grim focus. This is probably the best case scenario for us. If this is the case I would not mind having 5x light attacks to proc the bow. This would probably be a major buff to us. likely never to happen.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

teach us senpai

Ok.

Grim Focus (including morphs) and Assassin's Will (including Assassin's Scourge) are entirely different abilities. Understanding this is the key to mastering Grim Focus and nightblade as a class. The skill actually works pretty well once you understand its nuances.

Grim Focus is the buff. Assassin's Will is the proc. They have entirely different properties and behaviors, including entirely different tooltips. Proc Assassin's Will, then hover over it on your ability bar. You'll see.

Assassin's Will has a .1 second channel time. This is displayed on the tooltip. Attempting to block, roll dodge, or weapon swap animation cancel Assassin's Will too soon will cut into that channel time, interrupting and cancelling the ability. It's exactly the same as blocking, rolling, or weapon swapping while hard casting Crystal Fragments. You wouldn't do that, would you? Frags isn't considered "clunky" or "inconsistent," is it? Follow the same principles, and Grim Focus won't be either.

Because of the .1 second channel, you also cannot fire the proc at a person who is about to line of sight you. Same as hard casting a Frag at someone about to slip around a tree...if you fire your Assassin's Will or Assassin's Scourge at a target right as they slip around LoS, your proc will vanish.

There is a brief animation after the channel time that can be animation cancelled. It's the part where you raise the big red bow in front of you and fire the shot, and it can be block, roll, or weapon swap cancelled, eliminating much of the flashy animation. I particularly love cancelling my Assassin's Wills while dodging or blocking a Frag, Dizzying Swing, gap closer, or other telegraphed ability in order to take my opponents by surprise and strike them while they go on the offense. Despite the channel time, animation cancelling the proc properly conceals most of its visible animation. However, animation cancel it too soon, and you clip into that channel time and cancel your proc altogether. It takes practice to master, but it's powerful once you've gotten the muscle memory down.

Casting the Grim Focus buff can be fully animation cancelled in any way, concealing that you've recasted it. I animation cancel recasts of the ability in the heat of rapid combos all the time in order to take my opponent by surprise with another Assassin's Will soon after the first.

Your light or heavy attacks do not need to hit the target in order to count toward your proc. As long as you target an enemy while firing the light attacks, they'll count. The opponent can dodge them via rolling or Major Evasion, block them, reflect them, "miss" them via the Blessed set, or even die, and your attacks will still count toward your proc.

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

Assassin's Will and Assassin's Scourge both trigger an audible warning for your target. They both have audio effects for surrounding players and for you, like any ability, but your target gets a special audible queue in addition. It's a louder thump that is unique to these attacks and warns them that the arrow is flying at their face. Try to cc them, hit them in a gap closer or channel, or otherwise take them by surprise to prevent them from dodging or blocking.

And then there's all the standard stuff that everyone should know... Assassin's Scourge is disease damage, which can apply a healing debuff. Assassin's Will applies a (soon to be somewhat less) nasty snare. Assassin's Will deals more damage than Assassin's Scourge. Relentless Focus gives passive stamina regen..... etc etc.

I think that's everything... I might add to this comment later if I remember another detail.

@NightbladeMechanics thanks for the detailed advice.

I have trouble weaving swallow soul, it will often cancel my light attack so I tend to do medium weave, it used to work, I'm not sure which update broke it, probably Thieves Guild, is there some trick to it?

ixie wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

teach us senpai

Ok.

Grim Focus (including morphs) and Assassin's Will (including Assassin's Scourge) are entirely different abilities. Understanding this is the key to mastering Grim Focus and nightblade as a class. The skill actually works pretty well once you understand its nuances.

Grim Focus is the buff. Assassin's Will is the proc. They have entirely different properties and behaviors, including entirely different tooltips. Proc Assassin's Will, then hover over it on your ability bar. You'll see.

Assassin's Will has a .1 second channel time. This is displayed on the tooltip. Attempting to block, roll dodge, or weapon swap animation cancel Assassin's Will too soon will cut into that channel time, interrupting and cancelling the ability. It's exactly the same as blocking, rolling, or weapon swapping while hard casting Crystal Fragments. You wouldn't do that, would you? Frags isn't considered "clunky" or "inconsistent," is it? Follow the same principles, and Grim Focus won't be either.

Because of the .1 second channel, you also cannot fire the proc at a person who is about to line of sight you. Same as hard casting a Frag at someone about to slip around a tree...if you fire your Assassin's Will or Assassin's Scourge at a target right as they slip around LoS, your proc will vanish.

There is a brief animation after the channel time that can be animation cancelled. It's the part where you raise the big red bow in front of you and fire the shot, and it can be block, roll, or weapon swap cancelled, eliminating much of the flashy animation. I particularly love cancelling my Assassin's Wills while dodging or blocking a Frag, Dizzying Swing, gap closer, or other telegraphed ability in order to take my opponents by surprise and strike them while they go on the offense. Despite the channel time, animation cancelling the proc properly conceals most of its visible animation. However, animation cancel it too soon, and you clip into that channel time and cancel your proc altogether. It takes practice to master, but it's powerful once you've gotten the muscle memory down.

Casting the Grim Focus buff can be fully animation cancelled in any way, concealing that you've recasted it. I animation cancel recasts of the ability in the heat of rapid combos all the time in order to take my opponent by surprise with another Assassin's Will soon after the first.

Your light or heavy attacks do not need to hit the target in order to count toward your proc. As long as you target an enemy while firing the light attacks, they'll count. The opponent can dodge them via rolling or Major Evasion, block them, reflect them, "miss" them via the Blessed set, or even die, and your attacks will still count toward your proc.

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

Assassin's Will and Assassin's Scourge both trigger an audible warning for your target. They both have audio effects for surrounding players and for you, like any ability, but your target gets a special audible queue in addition. It's a louder thump that is unique to these attacks and warns them that the arrow is flying at their face. Try to cc them, hit them in a gap closer or channel, or otherwise take them by surprise to prevent them from dodging or blocking.

And then there's all the standard stuff that everyone should know... Assassin's Scourge is disease damage, which can apply a healing debuff. Assassin's Will applies a (soon to be somewhat less) nasty snare. Assassin's Will deals more damage than Assassin's Scourge. Relentless Focus gives passive stamina regen..... etc etc.

I think that's everything... I might add to this comment later if I remember another detail.

@NightbladeMechanics thanks for the detailed advice.

I have trouble weaving swallow soul, it will often cancel my light attack so I tend to do medium weave, it used to work, I'm not sure which update broke it, probably Thieves Guild, is there some trick to it?

I try to stay away from medium weave.. especially when you are fighting a stam build or mag DK. since they run back and forth (behind/through you) while you are snared... you some how get stuck in the desrto heavy attack animation can cannot use any skill for a brief second. which is really annoying.. you sort of have to keep medium weave usage to minimum unless you know you can land you burst properly.