PTS 3.0.4 Nightbaldes Grim Focus. Buff or Nerf ? [Feedback.]. now with Actual Test results...

Capt_Morgan · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

Like weaving lightning staff. You can fire assa with the fifth LA if you take like a half second pause. On live you can do it on the four, basically firing the bow right as it procs, not on the next global. This will put your third bow at like 16 17 seconds. L2P

This is not about light attacks but weaving (animation canceling) light attacks and skills - pretty much like in any competitive DPS rotation. GCD timings prevent you from reaching 3rd proc because of the minimum timeframe each skill cast requires you to go through before being able to animation cancel it and then repeat again. And we're not even counting bar-swapping/bar-cancel and user mistakes here. I'm not sure you understand what we're talking about - at all.

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

MagBlade main since early Access.

What a ruthless irony.

LA + Merciless Resolve - > (1) LA + Force Pulse - > (2) LA + Force Pulse - > (3) LA + Force Pulse - > (4) LA + Force Pulse - > (5, and now hold your butts Cuz this is where it gets tricky) LA + half second pause + Merciless Resolve fire.....

I know ping, LA getting eaten by funnel health, all that stuff is frustrating. But with practice you can mitigate a lot of that frustration. Now if you're saying you are already doing this... And having trouble getting 15 globals to go off in 20 seconds that is a player issue.

F7sus4 · May 2017

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

LA + Merciless Resolve - > (1) LA + Force Pulse - > (2) LA + Force Pulse - > (3) LA + Force Pulse - > (4) LA + Force Pulse - > (5, and now hold your butts Cuz this is where it gets tricky) LA + half second pause + Merciless Resolve fire.....

I know ping, LA getting eaten by funnel health, all that stuff is frustrating. But with practice you can mitigate a lot of that frustration. Now if you're saying you are already doing this... And having trouble getting 15 globals to go off in 20 seconds that is a player issue.

Well, good you're taking skill-casting into consideration now, kudos! Sure, it's possible with relatively small ~0.5s margin as of now with full DPS rotation including bar-swaping/bar-cancelling (PTS at 150-180ms ping) and not just dumb Force Pulse spam. This was tested with full DPS rota (the same I use reaching 51k+ at Rakkat) and seeing the results I'm absolutely sure 95-99% of the people won't be able to get the 3rd proc. I'm also sure the same people will have way better life with those additional 2-4s of Grim Focus being there. We're talking about QoL improvements (like the one on Grim Focus was supposed to be), plus it won't break the game.

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

LA + half second pause + Merciless Resolve fire.....

By the way 350-400ms+ hold turns light attack into heavy attack already. Let's not play voodoo magic here, thanks!

MotokoKusanagi34 · May 2017

Any chance someone can do DPS parses with always casting 2 bows, always casting the 3rd bow (if that's even possible without smashing your head into a wall) and comparing it to previous PTS grim focus rotations (we know that's around 35k DPS)?

Mojmir · May 2017

I have to play devil's advocate and say 4 seconds is long time in pvp,before anyone else says it will be too much in that area.but from what I'm hearing,it's already nerf in pvp with the current pts set up. So win/win? Bueller?

F7sus4 · May 2017

MotokoKusanagi34 wrote: »

Any chance someone can do DPS parses with always casting 2 bows, always casting the 3rd bow (if that's even possible without smashing your head into a wall) and comparing it to previous PTS grim focus rotations (we know that's around 35k DPS)?

Unfortunately, I didn't screenshot any of the parses today, but the overall DPS didn't go up by more than ~1.8-3.2k on average when compared to 3.0.3 patch. However, the result (3.0.3 vs 3.0.4) also includes light attack damage buff, so it's difficult to extract Assassin's Will "bare" numbers out of it right now.

MotokoKusanagi34 · May 2017

F7sus4 wrote: »

MotokoKusanagi34 wrote: »

Any chance someone can do DPS parses with always casting 2 bows, always casting the 3rd bow (if that's even possible without smashing your head into a wall) and comparing it to previous PTS grim focus rotations (we know that's around 35k DPS)?

Unfortunately, I didn't screenshot any of the parses today, but the overall DPS didn't go up by more than ~1.8-3.2k on average when compared to 3.0.3 patch. However, the result (3.0.3 vs 3.0.4) also includes light attack damage buff, so it's difficult to extract Assassin's Will "bare" numbers out of it right now.

Completely forgot about that. Considering the light attack + spectral bow changes an increase of 3k would be rather disappointing, as magblades right now have a really good chance to be almost equal to sorcs in terms of DPS (PvE). Maybe the pet nerf will even things out but that's why I'm interested to see the difference between 2 and 3 spectral bow casts. Maybe 3 would be overkill and that's why I honestly didn't expect 3 casts to be even possible when I first read the patch notes.
Either way they have to do something with this ability - the buff seems more like a cool idea than a proof tested change.

F7sus4 · May 2017

The guy here maybe is a bit dramatic and perhaps exaggerates DoTs overlapping gaps (you can't do more than accepting 11.5s DoT and then 8s DoT wearing off almost simultaneously) but he has a genuinely valid point...

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

It is astounding how virtually every change has added more layers of complexity of timing to the optimal rotation when ZOS stated goal for some time has been the opposite. When I look at these new half full heavy and half light rotations with all their DOTs and Procs I just think damn, that is some complex stuff. I can't even tell you where in your third 8 second major rotation duration each full heavy and focus proc, will land and if there will be a focus reapply. It boggles the mind. Ideally you are now sinking a 5 attack (cast time will vary), two 8 second, a 11.5 second, and a 20 second cast with full heavies that need to average probably 1 every 15 seconds and are 2.2 seconds (shock staff) long which shouldn't delay any of the other casts. I can't even figure that out on paper. Just think about that. You created a mess so complex that now I would need to write an optimization algorithm to even figure what I'm supposed to do let alone actually do it.

True. So IRL (taking all factors including asymmetric DoTs + ping mini-margin + player's mistakes mini-margin)...

24 second Grim Focus would allow you to easily introduce 1 full heavy-attack charge into the rotation and still fire off 3 procs.
25.5s second Grim Focus would allow you to easily introduce 1 full heavy-attack charge and 1 Siphoning Strikes cast outside of full DPS rota (+ time for additional bar-swaps or arguably 2 full heavy-attacks - whichever provides more resources in forthcoming 3.0.5).
If that's still too much to ask then returning to 4 light/heavy proc (and 20s) basically allows to play the previous rotation which without much buff-tracking will be repeated after 3rd proc with ~2-2.5s margin. (I assume counting 3rd bow proc isn't really difficult.)

Tonturri · May 2017

I don't know why ZOS feels the need to 'compensate' for the buff (allowing multiple procs during the duration) with a nerf (increasing light attacks from 4->5). It's not like NB was wildly overperforming in the first place. It feels like they try to balance out their buffs with more nerfs, and ultimately very little changes. Do think that it should be lowered back down to 4 attacks, or extended duration.

Code2501 · May 2017

The light attack requirement is just a disguised (and inelegant) cooldown in a game that boasts combat without skill cooldowns.
I'd rather be charged mana for the nuke and have the light attack requirement removed.

notimetocare · May 2017

ixie wrote: »

It is a nerf. I tested and can only reliably fire the spectral bow twice in the 20 seconds on the target dummy, in part because using fire staff and weaving Swallow Soul means I have to use medium attacks as light attacks don't land, in PvP you would have to recast after every spectral bow anyway as others have already stated

Also, why are they reducing the duration of the snare, a nerf on top of a nerf

Below I have tried to diagram six spectral bows on live and PTS

C = cast grim focus
L = light/medium attack
L = light/medium attack with spectral bow

Live
C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L C L L L L

PTS
C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L C L L L L L L L L L L

So you get an extra shot per buff and its a nerf... Some logic right there

Didgerion · May 2017

That's a perfect example to show ZOS that PVE and PVP should be balanced separately.

Now if you buff grim focus it will be OP in PVE.
If you nerf it - it will be useless in PVP.

Here is how grim focus should be balanced:
Grim Focus has to have 5 attacks to proc in PVE and 4 attacks to proc in PVP. That would make it reliable both in PVP and PVE.

HuawaSepp · May 2017

It's not possible to get the 4th bow proc, every time after the sound it is refreshing... (by weaving raid rotation)
And in a raid my LAs are not 1:1 with active combat time, so I guess squeezing out 2 is the average.

With 12 sec path a 24 sec cooldown is preferable.
With 20 sec like it is now you have to delay some dots...

zyk · May 2017

Whether it is a buff/nerf in PVP depends on how one uses it. For my current playstyle, I consider it a nerf.

For surfing lanes, and pew pew pew, it's a buff. Using it to pressure, it's a buff. Using it as part of a kill combo against a skilled opponent, it's a nerf IMO.

TheHsN · May 2017

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

Izaki · May 2017

Yeee the uptime to 22 seconds would be great.

makreth · May 2017

@CavalryPK If you are to talk about magblades exclusively you should change your thread title to magblade instead of NB. The latter includes both stamblades and magblades. Just a clarification because you started talking in general and then cut it down to magblade only.

Brrrofski · May 2017

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

Sunburnt_Penguin · May 2017

My issue is that getting 4 light attacks to land in the 'dodge'-'dodge'-'dodge' world of PvP is difficult enough anyway. Increasing this to 5 simply reduces the window for a burst combo, whether it recasts or not is a moot point.

Maybe I'll have to change to either Resto weaving with Swallow Soul or just remove this from my combo and use it for keeping pressure up, I don't know.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · May 2017

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

Just play a sorc then, what is the point of having a NB if not to have differences??

Prive · May 2017

PVE players rejoice!!!! In pve, during the 20 seconds, when you have your rotation perfectly you can squeeze roughly 16-17 light attacks in between skills. This means you can fire 3 spectral bow. you will be able to mess up 1 or 2 light attacks and still do your 3 spectral bows

they now have to do an additional light attack which reduces their window of burst from 13-15 seconds to 10-13 seconds.

@CavalryPK

You r right. it's a small loss for PVP. and @F7sus4 is also right, they should increase this to 24 seconds for the proc (it would also fit the rotation better)

But to say, that "one" single light attack is bringing the burst time down from 13-15 sec to 10-13 seconds is a bit too much :P
Like, your window exists of 5 sec. How is one LA gonna cost you 5 seconds.

And besides, if you gonna recast it anyway. And you wait for your ult anyway. How is 20 seconds not enough to time your burst dmg?

Strider_Roshin · May 2017

Yeah I'm only able to fire it off twice. Didn't they mention that you were suppose to fire it off more times than that?

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

My assassin's will times out on live from time to time from just not having a clear opportunity to combo during the ~15 seconds that it's up. Now I'll have a slightly narrower window in which to combo. This change will demand greater planning ahead, but also will result in more wills fired off just to make use of them before they expire. These will not result in kills, so having them at all is arguably insignificant.

And our snare duration got cut by 2 seconds.

Overall minor but negative changes for the weakest PvP class. This is why I warned against ZOS making grim focus not require a recast.

ixie · May 2017

Well magicka nightblades got some pretty nice buffs this patch apparently

https://youtu.be/y_SyryO1xgw?t=1443

Fasque · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

Sorry for Off-Topic but EXACTLY the mindset like this is the reason why Morrowind turned out to be one of the worst patches in the history of this game.

PVE will struggle not PVP. As long as the power and utility of the class abilities is balanced PVP will always be equal because your opponent has the same benefits or downsides of the patch.

Really...
I'm so done with this community and the fact that always the minorities with the loudest voices getting served.

Shield stackers are annoying, sustain is annoying, burst damage is annoying - I am really wondering why all the PVP guys are still playing PVP since everything seems to be annoying....
Guess what? Sustain issues will be annoying too. Bazinga!

But yea let's just not care about the PVE guys because it's their own fault if they can't beat the content anymore they run on a regulary base before. We have to mention that there are a bunch of dps races in the game mechanics which will just be possible to beat with the highest of the underwhelming numers which we all will pull after next patch.

Sorry for being so bitchy... but what's enough is enough.

Ps. Best would be to make this ability a toggle anyway. Would fit the intention behind the class the best and wouldn't be the pain as it is to cast in a rotation.
Frags of a sorc are autoproc too and way stronger than the spectral bow.

But yea, I guess it would screw up the poor PVP guys, who don't care about the gameplay of teso outside of cyrodiil anyway.

(I'm sorry for this last one...)

Nevasca · May 2017

I tested it in a skel dummy and... the skilll just feels clunky tbh... While it may be a buff and give us better numbers, I'd rather they either:

- Increase duration by a few seconds
- Every bow shot refresh the duration of the skill. Idc if you need to increase the la needed to compensate.
- Make it similar to Frag from Sorcs. It would kill the uniqueness though.
- Don't change the skill at all and buff somewhere else, like Swallow Soul or Dark Shades dmg even(not Shadow Image).

QuebraRegra · May 2017

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

I tested it in a skel dummy and... the skilll just feels clunky tbh... While it may be a buff and give us better numbers, I'd rather they either:

- Increase duration by a few seconds
- Every bow shot refresh the duration of the skill. Idc if you need to increase the la needed to compensate.
- Make it similar to Frag from Sorcs. It would kill the uniqueness though.
- Don't change the skill at all and buff somewhere else, like Swallow Soul or Dark Shades dmg even(not Shadow Image).

yeah... I thought the point was for it to be less "clunky"? #stillclunky

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Fasque wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

Sorry for Off-Topic but EXACTLY the mindset like this is the reason why Morrowind turned out to be one of the worst patches in the history of this game.

PVE will struggle not PVP. As long as the power and utility of the class abilities is balanced PVP will always be equal because your opponent has the same benefits or downsides of the patch.

Really...
I'm so done with this community and the fact that always the minorities with the loudest voices getting served.

Shield stackers are annoying, sustain is annoying, burst damage is annoying - I am really wondering why all the PVP guys are still playing PVP since everything seems to be annoying....
Guess what? Sustain issues will be annoying too. Bazinga!

But yea let's just not care about the PVE guys because it's their own fault if they can't beat the content anymore they run on a regulary base before. We have to mention that there are a bunch of dps races in the game mechanics which will just be possible to beat with the highest of the underwhelming numers which we all will pull after next patch.

Sorry for being so bitchy... but what's enough is enough.

Ps. Best would be to make this ability a toggle anyway. Would fit the intention behind the class the best and wouldn't be the pain as it is to cast in a rotation.
Frags of a sorc are autoproc too and way stronger than the spectral bow.

But yea, I guess it would screw up the poor PVP guys, who don't care about the gameplay of teso outside of cyrodiil anyway.

(I'm sorry for this last one...)

The premise of your comment (bolded) is flawed because the classes are not influenced equally by any patch. Therefore some players will take each patch harder than others.

You don't understand PvP balance, and you're just as jaded against PvP as you think some players are against PvE.

leepalmer95 · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Fasque wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

Sorry for Off-Topic but EXACTLY the mindset like this is the reason why Morrowind turned out to be one of the worst patches in the history of this game.

PVE will struggle not PVP. As long as the power and utility of the class abilities is balanced PVP will always be equal because your opponent has the same benefits or downsides of the patch.

Really...
I'm so done with this community and the fact that always the minorities with the loudest voices getting served.

Shield stackers are annoying, sustain is annoying, burst damage is annoying - I am really wondering why all the PVP guys are still playing PVP since everything seems to be annoying....
Guess what? Sustain issues will be annoying too. Bazinga!

But yea let's just not care about the PVE guys because it's their own fault if they can't beat the content anymore they run on a regulary base before. We have to mention that there are a bunch of dps races in the game mechanics which will just be possible to beat with the highest of the underwhelming numers which we all will pull after next patch.

Sorry for being so bitchy... but what's enough is enough.

Ps. Best would be to make this ability a toggle anyway. Would fit the intention behind the class the best and wouldn't be the pain as it is to cast in a rotation.
Frags of a sorc are autoproc too and way stronger than the spectral bow.

But yea, I guess it would screw up the poor PVP guys, who don't care about the gameplay of teso outside of cyrodiil anyway.

(I'm sorry for this last one...)

The premise of your comment (bolded) is flawed because the classes are not influenced equally by any patch. Therefore some players will take each patch harder than others.

You don't understand PvP balance, and you're just as jaded against PvP as you think some players are against PvE.

I don't think he understands that this change is a buff to dps (pve) and a nerf to burst (pvp).

Most of the pve'ers like that don't realise they are just as bad.

Xvorg · May 2017

I'm afraid of asking ZoS for those extra 4 secs... probably they will nerf any other thing instead...

rimmidimdim · May 2017

It's a buff for pve, Nerf for PvP. Extra four seconds would be nice or heavy attacks count as two light attacks.