PTS 3.0.4 Nightbaldes Grim Focus. Buff or Nerf ? [Feedback.]. now with Actual Test results...

ixie

CavalryPK wrote: »

ixie wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

teach us senpai

Ok.

Grim Focus (including morphs) and Assassin's Will (including Assassin's Scourge) are entirely different abilities. Understanding this is the key to mastering Grim Focus and nightblade as a class. The skill actually works pretty well once you understand its nuances.

Grim Focus is the buff. Assassin's Will is the proc. They have entirely different properties and behaviors, including entirely different tooltips. Proc Assassin's Will, then hover over it on your ability bar. You'll see.

Assassin's Will has a .1 second channel time. This is displayed on the tooltip. Attempting to block, roll dodge, or weapon swap animation cancel Assassin's Will too soon will cut into that channel time, interrupting and cancelling the ability. It's exactly the same as blocking, rolling, or weapon swapping while hard casting Crystal Fragments. You wouldn't do that, would you? Frags isn't considered "clunky" or "inconsistent," is it? Follow the same principles, and Grim Focus won't be either.

Because of the .1 second channel, you also cannot fire the proc at a person who is about to line of sight you. Same as hard casting a Frag at someone about to slip around a tree...if you fire your Assassin's Will or Assassin's Scourge at a target right as they slip around LoS, your proc will vanish.

There is a brief animation after the channel time that can be animation cancelled. It's the part where you raise the big red bow in front of you and fire the shot, and it can be block, roll, or weapon swap cancelled, eliminating much of the flashy animation. I particularly love cancelling my Assassin's Wills while dodging or blocking a Frag, Dizzying Swing, gap closer, or other telegraphed ability in order to take my opponents by surprise and strike them while they go on the offense. Despite the channel time, animation cancelling the proc properly conceals most of its visible animation. However, animation cancel it too soon, and you clip into that channel time and cancel your proc altogether. It takes practice to master, but it's powerful once you've gotten the muscle memory down.

Casting the Grim Focus buff can be fully animation cancelled in any way, concealing that you've recasted it. I animation cancel recasts of the ability in the heat of rapid combos all the time in order to take my opponent by surprise with another Assassin's Will soon after the first.

Your light or heavy attacks do not need to hit the target in order to count toward your proc. As long as you target an enemy while firing the light attacks, they'll count. The opponent can dodge them via rolling or Major Evasion, block them, reflect them, "miss" them via the Blessed set, or even die, and your attacks will still count toward your proc.

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

Assassin's Will and Assassin's Scourge both trigger an audible warning for your target. They both have audio effects for surrounding players and for you, like any ability, but your target gets a special audible queue in addition. It's a louder thump that is unique to these attacks and warns them that the arrow is flying at their face. Try to cc them, hit them in a gap closer or channel, or otherwise take them by surprise to prevent them from dodging or blocking.

And then there's all the standard stuff that everyone should know... Assassin's Scourge is disease damage, which can apply a healing debuff. Assassin's Will applies a (soon to be somewhat less) nasty snare. Assassin's Will deals more damage than Assassin's Scourge. Relentless Focus gives passive stamina regen..... etc etc.

I think that's everything... I might add to this comment later if I remember another detail.

@NightbladeMechanics thanks for the detailed advice.

I have trouble weaving swallow soul, it will often cancel my light attack so I tend to do medium weave, it used to work, I'm not sure which update broke it, probably Thieves Guild, is there some trick to it?

I try to stay away from medium weave.. especially when you are fighting a stam build or mag DK. since they run back and forth (behind/through you) while you are snared... you some how get stuck in the desrto heavy attack animation can cannot use any skill for a brief second. which is really annoying.. you sort of have to keep medium weave usage to minimum unless you know you can land you burst properly.

Thanks @CavalryPK

I do get stuck in heavy attack animation at times, often my own doing while trying to avoid damage embarassingly. I'll practice light weave and see how I get on

NightbladeMechanics

ixie wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

ixie wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

teach us senpai

Ok.

Grim Focus (including morphs) and Assassin's Will (including Assassin's Scourge) are entirely different abilities. Understanding this is the key to mastering Grim Focus and nightblade as a class. The skill actually works pretty well once you understand its nuances.

Grim Focus is the buff. Assassin's Will is the proc. They have entirely different properties and behaviors, including entirely different tooltips. Proc Assassin's Will, then hover over it on your ability bar. You'll see.

Assassin's Will has a .1 second channel time. This is displayed on the tooltip. Attempting to block, roll dodge, or weapon swap animation cancel Assassin's Will too soon will cut into that channel time, interrupting and cancelling the ability. It's exactly the same as blocking, rolling, or weapon swapping while hard casting Crystal Fragments. You wouldn't do that, would you? Frags isn't considered "clunky" or "inconsistent," is it? Follow the same principles, and Grim Focus won't be either.

Because of the .1 second channel, you also cannot fire the proc at a person who is about to line of sight you. Same as hard casting a Frag at someone about to slip around a tree...if you fire your Assassin's Will or Assassin's Scourge at a target right as they slip around LoS, your proc will vanish.

There is a brief animation after the channel time that can be animation cancelled. It's the part where you raise the big red bow in front of you and fire the shot, and it can be block, roll, or weapon swap cancelled, eliminating much of the flashy animation. I particularly love cancelling my Assassin's Wills while dodging or blocking a Frag, Dizzying Swing, gap closer, or other telegraphed ability in order to take my opponents by surprise and strike them while they go on the offense. Despite the channel time, animation cancelling the proc properly conceals most of its visible animation. However, animation cancel it too soon, and you clip into that channel time and cancel your proc altogether. It takes practice to master, but it's powerful once you've gotten the muscle memory down.

Casting the Grim Focus buff can be fully animation cancelled in any way, concealing that you've recasted it. I animation cancel recasts of the ability in the heat of rapid combos all the time in order to take my opponent by surprise with another Assassin's Will soon after the first.

Your light or heavy attacks do not need to hit the target in order to count toward your proc. As long as you target an enemy while firing the light attacks, they'll count. The opponent can dodge them via rolling or Major Evasion, block them, reflect them, "miss" them via the Blessed set, or even die, and your attacks will still count toward your proc.

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

Assassin's Will and Assassin's Scourge both trigger an audible warning for your target. They both have audio effects for surrounding players and for you, like any ability, but your target gets a special audible queue in addition. It's a louder thump that is unique to these attacks and warns them that the arrow is flying at their face. Try to cc them, hit them in a gap closer or channel, or otherwise take them by surprise to prevent them from dodging or blocking.

And then there's all the standard stuff that everyone should know... Assassin's Scourge is disease damage, which can apply a healing debuff. Assassin's Will applies a (soon to be somewhat less) nasty snare. Assassin's Will deals more damage than Assassin's Scourge. Relentless Focus gives passive stamina regen..... etc etc.

I think that's everything... I might add to this comment later if I remember another detail.

@NightbladeMechanics thanks for the detailed advice.

I have trouble weaving swallow soul, it will often cancel my light attack so I tend to do medium weave, it used to work, I'm not sure which update broke it, probably Thieves Guild, is there some trick to it?

I try to stay away from medium weave.. especially when you are fighting a stam build or mag DK. since they run back and forth (behind/through you) while you are snared... you some how get stuck in the desrto heavy attack animation can cannot use any skill for a brief second. which is really annoying.. you sort of have to keep medium weave usage to minimum unless you know you can land you burst properly.

Thanks @CavalryPK

I do get stuck in heavy attack animation at times, often my own doing while trying to avoid damage embarassingly. I'll practice light weave and see how I get on

You can hold down your light attack button for a brief amount of time -- a split second -- before it becomes a medium attack. Don't do this. That's what messes up the weaves.

Press your light attack button as briefly as possible. If you're using a mouse, left click as lightly as possible. Strife messes with your light attacks when you linger on the click for that split second longer. I hope that makes sense.

Medium attacks can also lock up, but all staff users have that issue. I try to only weave light attacks or full heavies. If you make sure to weave with either the lightest of light attack clicks, or deliberate full heavy attacks, you'll avoid issues with weaving.

Hope this helps.

ixie

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

ixie wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

ixie wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

Why make mageblade even more like a gimped sorc though? Does class uniqueness mean anything?

If by unique you mean situtational or pigeon-holed not interested in that.

Grim Focus does not make it situational or pigeon-holed though.

The latest change does just that
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344737/grim-focus-bugged#latest
It's not consistent,still clunky on casting,reduce it to 4 light attacks and zos compromise.

He tried to fire it too early and messed it up. That works the same as on live -- he was impatient and unpracticed with the skill. People in that thread even confirmed that the skill was not bugged.

You guys will get the hang of using Merciless with practice. Don't automatically assume the skill is bugged or "clunky" just because you haven't learned all of how it works. It has some very involved mechanics under the hood.

teach us senpai

Ok.

Grim Focus (including morphs) and Assassin's Will (including Assassin's Scourge) are entirely different abilities. Understanding this is the key to mastering Grim Focus and nightblade as a class. The skill actually works pretty well once you understand its nuances.

Grim Focus is the buff. Assassin's Will is the proc. They have entirely different properties and behaviors, including entirely different tooltips. Proc Assassin's Will, then hover over it on your ability bar. You'll see.

Assassin's Will has a .1 second channel time. This is displayed on the tooltip. Attempting to block, roll dodge, or weapon swap animation cancel Assassin's Will too soon will cut into that channel time, interrupting and cancelling the ability. It's exactly the same as blocking, rolling, or weapon swapping while hard casting Crystal Fragments. You wouldn't do that, would you? Frags isn't considered "clunky" or "inconsistent," is it? Follow the same principles, and Grim Focus won't be either.

Because of the .1 second channel, you also cannot fire the proc at a person who is about to line of sight you. Same as hard casting a Frag at someone about to slip around a tree...if you fire your Assassin's Will or Assassin's Scourge at a target right as they slip around LoS, your proc will vanish.

There is a brief animation after the channel time that can be animation cancelled. It's the part where you raise the big red bow in front of you and fire the shot, and it can be block, roll, or weapon swap cancelled, eliminating much of the flashy animation. I particularly love cancelling my Assassin's Wills while dodging or blocking a Frag, Dizzying Swing, gap closer, or other telegraphed ability in order to take my opponents by surprise and strike them while they go on the offense. Despite the channel time, animation cancelling the proc properly conceals most of its visible animation. However, animation cancel it too soon, and you clip into that channel time and cancel your proc altogether. It takes practice to master, but it's powerful once you've gotten the muscle memory down.

Casting the Grim Focus buff can be fully animation cancelled in any way, concealing that you've recasted it. I animation cancel recasts of the ability in the heat of rapid combos all the time in order to take my opponent by surprise with another Assassin's Will soon after the first.

Your light or heavy attacks do not need to hit the target in order to count toward your proc. As long as you target an enemy while firing the light attacks, they'll count. The opponent can dodge them via rolling or Major Evasion, block them, reflect them, "miss" them via the Blessed set, or even die, and your attacks will still count toward your proc.

You must wait a split second after firing the final light attack before you can fire the proc, else the proc will fail. @Mojmir this is what that person was doing in the video you linked here. He's trying to fire the proc immediately as he fires that last light attack, even as he hears his "ding" indicator, but that is too soon. This is the ONLY truly clunky feature of the ability. I wish it didn't work this way, but it's such a minor detail that it barely affects the ability's performance. In PvE, this slight delay does not cause casting the proc to exceed the 1 second global cooldown, therefore it does not reduce dps. In PvP, you have to be careful when executing combos in which the light attack weave right before you fire your Assassin's Will/Scourge is the final light attack that procs it. Those combos can still be executed rapidly and successful -- I do them all the time -- but you have to be careful not to botch them. This feature might be a deliberate impediment by the designer of the ability to keep nightblades from comboing in such ways, as Grim Focus is super powerful, but it's likely just a (minor) bug in the ability. That said, I reiterate that once you're used to how this works, the delay is so extremely tiny that it does not impede combos or rotations if you have practiced working around it.

Assassin's Will and Assassin's Scourge both trigger an audible warning for your target. They both have audio effects for surrounding players and for you, like any ability, but your target gets a special audible queue in addition. It's a louder thump that is unique to these attacks and warns them that the arrow is flying at their face. Try to cc them, hit them in a gap closer or channel, or otherwise take them by surprise to prevent them from dodging or blocking.

And then there's all the standard stuff that everyone should know... Assassin's Scourge is disease damage, which can apply a healing debuff. Assassin's Will applies a (soon to be somewhat less) nasty snare. Assassin's Will deals more damage than Assassin's Scourge. Relentless Focus gives passive stamina regen..... etc etc.

I think that's everything... I might add to this comment later if I remember another detail.

@NightbladeMechanics thanks for the detailed advice.

I have trouble weaving swallow soul, it will often cancel my light attack so I tend to do medium weave, it used to work, I'm not sure which update broke it, probably Thieves Guild, is there some trick to it?

I try to stay away from medium weave.. especially when you are fighting a stam build or mag DK. since they run back and forth (behind/through you) while you are snared... you some how get stuck in the desrto heavy attack animation can cannot use any skill for a brief second. which is really annoying.. you sort of have to keep medium weave usage to minimum unless you know you can land you burst properly.

Thanks @CavalryPK

I do get stuck in heavy attack animation at times, often my own doing while trying to avoid damage embarassingly. I'll practice light weave and see how I get on

You can hold down your light attack button for a brief amount of time -- a split second -- before it becomes a medium attack. Don't do this. That's what messes up the weaves.

Press your light attack button as briefly as possible. If you're using a mouse, left click as lightly as possible. Strife messes with your light attacks when you linger on the click for that split second longer. I hope that makes sense.

Medium attacks can also lock up, but all staff users have that issue. I try to only weave light attacks or full heavies. If you make sure to weave with either the lightest of light attack clicks, or deliberate full heavy attacks, you'll avoid issues with weaving.

Hope this helps.

It helps a lot, thanks @NightbladeMechanics

NyassaV

In PvE it's still a pain in the ass, but for PvP it's worse

Xvorg

rimmidimdim wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

This Skill should be like cyrstal Frags.. Give it Proc chance when it procs press it insta cast....give it "%30-40 Proc chance" and skill is done....more fun to play easy to control no miss time or cast ....

This.

No.

Grim focus main use is the minor berserk buff. Making it like frags should mean losing the buff.

I'll keep the 5 weaves requirement but adding a CD after proc (5 secs) so after 5 secs you can use it again within the 20 secs. That gives you the chance of 4 procs with good timing.

6 secs is a good option too.

ccfeeling

As a stamblade
I wont buy mirrowind
I know that we will get meaningless nerf again and again (5 in row?cant remember)
Sorc are the king we know!

F7sus4

Xvorg wrote: »

I'll keep the 5 weaves requirement but adding a CD after proc (5 secs) so after 5 secs you can use it again within the 20 secs. That gives you the chance of 4 procs with good timing.

6 secs is a good option too.

It's 3 procs best scenario with full rotation and 4 procs with additional double light-attacking before each proc (which is DPS loss compared to 3 proc+recast and in no way "proves" that timing of this skill is working smoothly).

Izaki

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

Strider_Roshin

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

NBrookus

ixie wrote: »

I have trouble weaving swallow soul, it will often cancel my light attack so I tend to do medium weave, it used to work, I'm not sure which update broke it, probably Thieves Guild, is there some trick to it?

I'm with you - weaving with Swallow Soul eludes me. Between my gimpy hands and the clunky equipment I have to use to accommodate them and less than stellar ping I don't stress over perfect light/medium/heavy Force Pulse weaves as long as I get there.

But I get like 10% success on Swallow Soul; I just can't find the timing. Yet... I hope.

@NightbladeMechanics Very helpful post, thanks.

Izaki

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

Yeah pair that with NBs ability to light attack weave while conserving a full damage setup and you have some very competitive DPS this patch compared to other classes.

leepalmer95

ccfeeling wrote: »

As a stamblade
I wont buy mirrowind
I know that we will get meaningless nerf again and again (5 in row?cant remember)
Sorc are the king we know!

Your going to get the balance changes with or without morrowind.

Stam nb is pretty good in bg's.

Strider_Roshin

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

Yeah pair that with NBs ability to light attack weave while conserving a full damage setup and you have some very competitive DPS this patch compared to other classes.

This is true as long as they bring down the Magsorc's DPS to a reasonable level. I haven't seen many of their parses displayed on the pts so I'm not sure how they're currently performing when compared to the other classes.

Izaki

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

Yeah pair that with NBs ability to light attack weave while conserving a full damage setup and you have some very competitive DPS this patch compared to other classes.

This is true as long as they bring down the Magsorc's DPS to a reasonable level. I haven't seen many of their parses displayed on the pts so I'm not sure how they're currently performing when compared to the other classes.

Sorcs? Well they have to use heavy attacks (no other way around it). I couldn't sustain a 3mil dummy fight with 2k recovery without heavy attacking. So Sorcs are not only going to be stupidly boring to play, but now that both the Heavy Attacks and the Pet are getting nerfed, they really are being brought in line with other DPS. The Stam Sorc is still very strong, but due to the heavy attack nerfs, it is also suffering quite a high DPS loss because well... Its the only sustain tool that sSorcs have. So all in all, most Stamina DPS are pretty equal in terms of DPS. The Stam NB is the only one that can sustain light attack weaving (thus conserving a unique playstyle over other classes).
About the stamblade... all I can say is that I just hit 44.2k and I'm pretty excited to pull it out of the closet for Morrowind: http://imgur.com/Vhl90sv

Strider_Roshin

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

Yeah pair that with NBs ability to light attack weave while conserving a full damage setup and you have some very competitive DPS this patch compared to other classes.

This is true as long as they bring down the Magsorc's DPS to a reasonable level. I haven't seen many of their parses displayed on the pts so I'm not sure how they're currently performing when compared to the other classes.

Sorcs? Well they have to use heavy attacks (no other way around it). I couldn't sustain a 3mil dummy fight with 2k recovery without heavy attacking. So Sorcs are not only going to be stupidly boring to play, but now that both the Heavy Attacks and the Pet are getting nerfed, they really are being brought in line with other DPS. The Stam Sorc is still very strong, but due to the heavy attack nerfs, it is also suffering quite a high DPS loss because well... Its the only sustain tool that sSorcs have. So all in all, most Stamina DPS are pretty equal in terms of DPS. The Stam NB is the only one that can sustain light attack weaving (thus conserving a unique playstyle over other classes).
About the stamblade... all I can say is that I just hit 44.2k and I'm pretty excited to pull it out of the closet for Morrowind: http://imgur.com/Vhl90sv

44.2k in the PTS?!

Strider_Roshin

Okay, what's your rotation?

Darkdex

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

Yeah pair that with NBs ability to light attack weave while conserving a full damage setup and you have some very competitive DPS this patch compared to other classes.

This is true as long as they bring down the Magsorc's DPS to a reasonable level. I haven't seen many of their parses displayed on the pts so I'm not sure how they're currently performing when compared to the other classes.

Sorcs? Well they have to use heavy attacks (no other way around it). I couldn't sustain a 3mil dummy fight with 2k recovery without heavy attacking. So Sorcs are not only going to be stupidly boring to play, but now that both the Heavy Attacks and the Pet are getting nerfed, they really are being brought in line with other DPS. The Stam Sorc is still very strong, but due to the heavy attack nerfs, it is also suffering quite a high DPS loss because well... Its the only sustain tool that sSorcs have. So all in all, most Stamina DPS are pretty equal in terms of DPS. The Stam NB is the only one that can sustain light attack weaving (thus conserving a unique playstyle over other classes).
About the stamblade... all I can say is that I just hit 44.2k and I'm pretty excited to pull it out of the closet for Morrowind: http://imgur.com/Vhl90sv

Holy s***!!

Could you, kind sir, share your rotation with us the mortal people?

Or at least can you tell us how many assasin's scorge procs did you shot per rotation in that parse?

Pretty awesome btw!

Izaki

Darkdex wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

This buff seems neither here nor there. It's the smallest of buffs for Pve and the smallest of nerfs in PvP. But not much either way. It's meh.

"Smallest of buffs for PvE". It literally doubled the DPS output of Assassin's Will/Assassin's Scourge (aka bow proc). And that's with only using 2 procs per cast. If you use 3 procs per cast, the DPS of this ability will be absolutely insane. Its a huge buff in PvE.

It's a 2-3k increase. Not bad, kind of wish they kept it as 4 light attacks though. The change is a nerf for PvP. Hopefully they'll give us the Sorc treatment, and revert it to 4 light attacks.

Yeah pair that with NBs ability to light attack weave while conserving a full damage setup and you have some very competitive DPS this patch compared to other classes.

This is true as long as they bring down the Magsorc's DPS to a reasonable level. I haven't seen many of their parses displayed on the pts so I'm not sure how they're currently performing when compared to the other classes.

Sorcs? Well they have to use heavy attacks (no other way around it). I couldn't sustain a 3mil dummy fight with 2k recovery without heavy attacking. So Sorcs are not only going to be stupidly boring to play, but now that both the Heavy Attacks and the Pet are getting nerfed, they really are being brought in line with other DPS. The Stam Sorc is still very strong, but due to the heavy attack nerfs, it is also suffering quite a high DPS loss because well... Its the only sustain tool that sSorcs have. So all in all, most Stamina DPS are pretty equal in terms of DPS. The Stam NB is the only one that can sustain light attack weaving (thus conserving a unique playstyle over other classes).
About the stamblade... all I can say is that I just hit 44.2k and I'm pretty excited to pull it out of the closet for Morrowind: http://imgur.com/Vhl90sv

Holy s***!!

Could you, kind sir, share your rotation with us the mortal people?

Or at least can you tell us how many assasin's scorge procs did you shot per rotation in that parse?

Pretty awesome btw!

Hehe thank you, thank you, @Asmael and Jeckll got me there, theorycrafted and tested lots of stuff with me and they both probably get higher results than me, because after all I'm just a console pleb playing with a controller who just started playing on PC when he got the Morrowind Beta invite

But anyway, the rotation... Its not really a rotation is most just buff management Put your DoTs up, Incap when available, Bow Proc when its up, Surprise Attack spam when nothing else to do, heavy attack when needed, etc. etc.

That was with 2 bow procs per 1 cast of Relentless Focus. So imagine if we managed to find a rotation with 3 of them?

Izaki

.

NightbladeMechanics

@IzakiBrotherSs I see infused weapons and Surprise Attack instead of Flurry. I like that. I'm out of touch with PvE trends these days. What's the forecast for stamblade and mageblade build patterns next patch as far as you have seen?

Izaki

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@IzakiBrotherSs I see infused weapons and Surprise Attack instead of Flurry. I like that. I'm out of touch with PvE trends these days. What's the forecast for stamblade and mageblade build patterns next patch as far as you have seen?

LIGHT ATTACKS Okay you still have to do a Heavy here and there, but its not like a Stam Sorc or a Stam DK where you have to do heavies as part of the rotation. NBs conserve a uniqueness this patch, the uniqueness of being able to have both: a full damage setup and fast paced playstyle with light attack weaving.

Yeah, from my testing, the vMA weapons have fallen out of trend, due to the fact that the rotation has to be executed to perfection without any sort of flexibility. Relentless Focus (which is now a legit strong DPS ability) doesn't allow for that strictness and neither do the resources strains. Also, Rapid Strikes is a channel after all, so it does take slightly longer to execute than Surprise Attack, and in a rotation focusing on Assassin's Scourge, speed of execution is very important. Plus Stam NBs have never been good with DoTs compared to other classes. They have so many direct damage abilities its just a shame not to use them IMO, and this patch, that option is better than vMA weapons. When you look at a Stam DK, Sorc or Templar all you have is DoTs. Hurricane, Claw, Noxious Breath, Jabs. Nightblades on the other hand have Surprise Attack, a ranged nuke (that hits for over 46k in solo applications), a cheap ultimate (aka the "mini standard of might") and of course the execute. That means that splitting between Master-At-Arms and Thaum instead of overloading into Thaumaturge wields better results, which is why in my opinion, stamblades are finally up to par to the others. Plus I mean... The DoTs still hit like trucks, on live the difference in DPS between vMA and non-vMA was only 2-3k and now its even more evened out, but the non-vMA setup offers gear flexibility (aka support sets like Alkosh and War Machine) and rotation flexibility. And well... The enchants on DW are a huge benefit: the poison enchant does about 2k DPS by itself (buffed by Master-At-Arms too) and then you have the Berserker on top. All this not only makes up for the 2k weapon damage on 2 DoTs, but it also surpasses that in literally every way IMO.

Can't say much about the magblade... Haven't really tested because I'm no expert at magblade at all ^^ But so far my guess is that its fairly similar to stamblades as in LIGHT ATTACKS. And its great to see that we will finally be able to play nightblade without getting laughed out of a raid for it (and actually pull some pretty insane single target deeps).

NightbladeMechanics

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@IzakiBrotherSs I see infused weapons and Surprise Attack instead of Flurry. I like that. I'm out of touch with PvE trends these days. What's the forecast for stamblade and mageblade build patterns next patch as far as you have seen?

LIGHT ATTACKS Okay you still have to do a Heavy here and there, but its not like a Stam Sorc or a Stam DK where you miss a heavy and run out of resources. NBs conserve a uniqueness this patch, the uniqueness of being able to have both: a full damage setup and fast paced playstyle with light attack weaving.

Yeah, from my testing, the vMA weapons have fallen out of trend, due to the fact that the rotation has to be executed to perfection without any sort of flexibility. Relentless Focus (which is now a legit strong DPS ability) doesn't allow for that strictness and neither do the resources strains. Also, Rapid Strikes is a channel after all, so it does take slightly longer to execute than Surprise Attack, and in a rotation focusing on Assassin's Scourge, speed of execution is very important. Plus Stam NBs have never been good with DoTs compared to other classes. They have so many direct damage abilities its just a shame not to use them IMO, and this patch, that option is better than vMA weapons.

Can't say much about the magblade... Haven't really tested because I'm no expert at magblade at all ^^ But so far my guess is that its fairly similar to stamblades as in LIGHT ATTACKS. And its great to see that we will finally be able to play nightblade without getting laughed out of a raid for it (and actually pull some pretty insane single target deeps).

Do you think Master-at-Arms will shift the PvE meta away from Flurry dot builds for other classes? Are channel dot builds are less resource intensive or do they leave more room for heavies?

Or will we see channel direct damage Wrecking Blow specs? 2h builds are only a few thousand dps short of dual wield from what I've heard.

Izaki

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@IzakiBrotherSs I see infused weapons and Surprise Attack instead of Flurry. I like that. I'm out of touch with PvE trends these days. What's the forecast for stamblade and mageblade build patterns next patch as far as you have seen?

LIGHT ATTACKS Okay you still have to do a Heavy here and there, but its not like a Stam Sorc or a Stam DK where you miss a heavy and run out of resources. NBs conserve a uniqueness this patch, the uniqueness of being able to have both: a full damage setup and fast paced playstyle with light attack weaving.

Yeah, from my testing, the vMA weapons have fallen out of trend, due to the fact that the rotation has to be executed to perfection without any sort of flexibility. Relentless Focus (which is now a legit strong DPS ability) doesn't allow for that strictness and neither do the resources strains. Also, Rapid Strikes is a channel after all, so it does take slightly longer to execute than Surprise Attack, and in a rotation focusing on Assassin's Scourge, speed of execution is very important. Plus Stam NBs have never been good with DoTs compared to other classes. They have so many direct damage abilities its just a shame not to use them IMO, and this patch, that option is better than vMA weapons.

Can't say much about the magblade... Haven't really tested because I'm no expert at magblade at all ^^ But so far my guess is that its fairly similar to stamblades as in LIGHT ATTACKS. And its great to see that we will finally be able to play nightblade without getting laughed out of a raid for it (and actually pull some pretty insane single target deeps).

Do you think Master-at-Arms will shift the PvE meta away from Flurry dot builds for other classes? Are channel dot builds are less resource intensive or do they leave more room for heavies?

Or will we see channel direct damage Wrecking Blow specs? 2h builds are only a few thousand dps short of dual wield from what I've heard.

No I think it will only be the case for Nightblades. Maybe Wardens too, we will see. The other classes don't benefit much from Master at Arms at all because they don't have much direct damage.
No channel builds don't leave much room for heavy attacks at all... Because well... Channels are longer But if you organize the rotation right, you end up with a pretty strict rotation that enables both: heavy attacks and channels while maintaining perfect uptimes on the big DoTs.
Stam DK for example, will most likely have a full on DoT rotation with heavy attack weaving.
Stamplar has a few possibilities including 2H, but it will definitely have to rely heavily on HAs to sustain, but because stamplars still have 2 "filler abilites" in the rotation they will be filled up by PotL and Jabs.
Stam Sorc is the only class that is able to conserve the vMA weapons in my experience and actually use them to get more or less good results, mainly because they have 2 "filler abilities" in the rotation which are filled up by Rapid Strikes as there's nothing else that can be used as a spammable, so its logical to use vMA weapons. Its a pretty hard rotation to sustain though and its highly likely that the Camoran Throne will be a must for Stam Sorcs, because heavy attacks alone won't sustain that kind of rotation indefinitely.
So in all these classes the DoT % contribution to the damage is really high, whereas on NB and Warden, direct damage also plays a pretty big part. On the DK and Templar you just don't have time to use vMA weapons to empower your DoTs with Flurry and heavy attack. So Stam Sorc is somewhat unique also this patch, due to the vMA weapons. The fact that you don't have the choice but to overload CP into Thaumaturge instead of splitting them into Master at Arms on other classes, kind of gives the NB an edge in efficiency too.

Imho 2H will never be as good as DW: you give up a strong DoT, fast heavy attacks, 2 weapon enchants, 25% AoE mitigation, a monster AoE spammable, at least 5% more crit (as well as activating several passive effects from Twin Blade and Blunt when running different weapons) and the option to use a very strong ultimate.

Vaoh

Sabbathius wrote: »

For PvP, definite nerf.

Nerf to burst isn't even arguable. When fighting starts, 5 attacks to trigger your burst instead of 4 is a nerf. Any way you slice it.

The nerf to slow from 5 sec to 3 sec is also not arguable. Again, any way you cut it.

The improvement this patch that you don't need to re-cast after firing off the proc is largely meaningless, because in PvP most of the time you do not fire it as soon as it procs, but rather line it up based on situation with your burst combo. Which means a lot (most?) of the time the old fire-and-recast approach will still apply. I'm going to call this one a wash, not a nerf, not a buff, just a quality of life change.

So, to recap, we have 2 nerfs, 1 wash. Overall verdict: nerf in PvP.

In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway.

"In PvE, honestly, who cares? If you can't beat AI the problem is between the chair and the keyboard anyway."

^^ yeah.... this is why we will never balance the game.

The typical "PvE vs PvP" drama. Never gonna end.