itscompton wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I

Ashamray wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

I understand what you say. I also play agressively (2 damage sets with DW and destro) and sustain is really high when you stack regen buff like HotD, minor magicka steal and rune, and I don't complain. I like my magplar both on live and PTS.
But to dominate in each aspect of PvP as a damage dealer you must be able to, well, kill a target. That's the core problem of jabs \ sweeps. Opponents can really reduce channel damage from 25% (avoid 1 tick) to 0 (avoid all 4). Sorcs can spam roots of build a camp of mines, Nightblades can spam Grasp and kite you easily, DKs can Talon you to death (to a draw tbh), and stamina is just more mobile and can backstab you while avoiding jabs. I usually kill everything that just stands in front of my face, but when I meet an opponent who is actually trying to negate my jabs, there is no way to kill him quickly even with full damage build. In short, channels suck.

I usually only use sweeps once during my burst, after they've been CC'ed and right before purifying light explodes

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

I'll concede the point that; in the Battlegrounds (specifically) MagTemplars may very well be in a good place.

However:

- That does not translate to the rest of the game well in any way.
- The vast majority of Players will never touch the PvP aspects of this game (as the vast majority 90+% of player populations are PvE Players), and an even smaller percentage of people are going to delve deeply into the Battlegrounds.
- We don't have to speculate on how it will perform on the Live Servers. We can see right here, on the PTS, what it will play like on the Live servers. The lack of resources due to the loss of Sustain and Cost reduction, the nigh-complete removal of Sustain from the game, the severe nerfs to any type of Cost Reduction, the soul-crushing nerfs to three (3) full Classes by giving the Skills/Abilities that made those Classes "unique" and "fun" to the Warden... none of that is lost to "speculation". What we're seeing here on the PTS is EXACTLY what it will be like on the Live servers.

So while the niche inside of a niche that is the Battlegrounds might hold good things for the MagTemplar, in the entire other 99% of the game;
- MagTemplars are still borked,
- StamTemplars are screwed,
- DK's of all types are getting neutered into oblivion,
- NB's of all types are going to be completely lost in the woods with almost zero effective combat Skills,
- Sustain is still going to be non-existent,
- Cost Reduction is all-but disappearing,
- enemy Health and Damage remain unchanged despite the Players becoming severely weaker,
- front-loaded CP all-but removes the difference between a Player with 60CP and one with 600CP,
- Heavy Attacks become the new combat standard, which will severely slow down combat even with the ever so slight speed increase to those attacks,
- Even with testing the higher resource return from Heavy Attacks, resource micro-management is still the new core focus of doing anything in the game,
- With the damage increase to Light Attacks, combat will become more often Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks focused, with players simply unable to complete more than 1-3 rotations of their Class Skills. This makes combat a boring, mindless slog that is the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goals...

None of this is good anywhere in the game, except for in the tiny Battlegrounds area of the game. A niche-within-a-niche.

That will not be a "good place" for the game once this all goes Live. Ever.

I'm not arguing against anything you're saying. I think you misunderstand me, I'm simply saying that for Pvp, magplar is in a great place relative to where many other classes are. They'll be top tier in small and large scale Pvp, no question.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

Normally I agree with just about everything your write, but I think you are off base here.

I know you think BoL is a "buff," but it's not. The spell is is no way more effective on the PTS than it is on Live. There is nothing about it that makes it perform any better; indeed there are two things that make it perform worse: it coast more and heals less.

Ranged builds are not "completely" shut down. Eclipse is still expensive, still does little damage, actually does give CC immunity without costing the target stamina. It's not at all clear Eclipse will all of a sudden become popular. Let's say I am a sorcerer and I get eclipsed. BFD. I curse you, crushing shock you, Mage's fury you, Eclipse breaks, then I insta cast a frag proc - that's till a good burst. Or I simply use the opportunity to reapply my shields. A NB will just cloak. A DK is not inconvenienced at all by Eclipse. Stam builds don't care. A magplar will just cleanse it. We're just going to see how this plays out, but you are pronouncing it before it even hits Live.

How do Templars have the best magcka sustain all of a sudden? Do you mean the Restoring focus spell that is redundant by the Warden in group that gives me the resistance buffs? Or does the 0.2 second increase on Dark Deal somehow make sorc sustain crap? We don't know what will happen with NB siphoning, but as much as they complained about it, provided the skill was used correctly it represented an efficient use of resources and healed for much more. DKs, well, DKs have been RIP since 1.6.

It is also presumptuous to say that temps "absolutely dominate" mag sorcs. The open world 1v1 scenario is not nearly as clear cut as you are making it out to be. In a group fight, Eclipse isn't going to do you any good because there Eclipse one hits one player at a time: all the other sorcs, NBs, and ranged builds will still hit you with impunity.

Templar will always be good in groups but I hate using that as a barometer for class effectiveness because that's a nice way of saying the class doesn't measure up when it's on it's own. A templar alone is very strong when it comes to not dying. Lacking the on-demand burst when outnumbered, however, makes it a questionable choice in such situation. Any stam build can burst at any time with abilities not contingent on ideal circumstances. There is a debate there, so potentially a templar is 6th as opposed to 2nd of the 8 specs when it comes to solo open world. And 6th is just writing of mNBs, which I think is a mistake because for as much a people say they aren't very good, mNBs in duels are very strong.

Templar is reliant on healing and no matter how you try to sell us that BoL is somehow getting buffed when it's not, your sweeps, your purify, and your breaths are going to be healing you for noticeably less. Meanwhile sorc shields and your stam opponents rally and vigor will be ticking for the same. The Templar is weaker on the PTS than on Live in such mano y mano situations.

You aren't crazy. You are a good player who can get away with the burst or bust style of play in general and not surprising at all on the PTS when folks are experimenting. It's anecdotal evidence. When you come across an opponent who is just as skilled and experienced, you will be in a worse situation than on Live because even if DKs and NBs got nerfed in sustain, their damage did not and you no longer have major mending, which is one of the strongest buffs in the game.

What magika class has better sustain than magplar? Are we running ele drain on msorc now, where's major prophecy coming from?

Yes, a sorc can hold his frag until after his curse explodes and I've recovered from it and try to burst with that. But that won't work in heavy unless you've been drastically outplayed. You can also purge his curse and any resource poisons, an option only stamplar a have.
Add in the roll dodge buff and the only Templar weakness, root spam, has been severely diminished(theoretically, we'll have to see this part in practice on live servers).
Even on live I absolutely can't be burst by 1 player. And that's on a 38k mag 4k spell damage build with infinite sustain. Next patch we drop a little more magika, push to 30k hp, switch skoria/groth for EG/Chokethorn. Now you're able to use spell symm safely during health procs and have unlimited sustain without giving up a 5 PC for it.

BoL is a ridiculously strong heal, even if you've only got minor mending with it. You've still got a ton of healing.

Vigor healing didn't get nerfed but it's much more expensive, so is bloodcraze spin it how you want, but Stam healing got hit hard.

Max damage potential is higher next patch, noticeably, but average damage is going to plummet. People are literally counting on heavy attacks to save them!

At 11k tooltip, a bol will hit for 5.5k heal in PvP. With 25% extra heading that's 1375 extra healing. With minor it's 440 extra heading (8% right?).

BoL has and we'll forever be the anti-execute. The strength of a Templar is his ability to bring players from death to half health via the low healing passive without a resto staff.

So after MW there is no 25% so it's 5.5 +440='s 5940 per BoL. But if someone with 30% in the Befoul CP hits you with major defile that gets reduced by 40% so 5940*.60='s 3564 per BoL so if you don't/can't purify the health return vs the magic cost for BoL is terrible.

KingJ wrote: »

All templars wanted was a reliable CC that's the only thing they had to do for templars and the Templar community would have been happy.Instead they removed major mending ,Increase the range of Javalin so it can't even be used as a effective CC,Removed the disorient from Shards and ruined repentance.

Zos had everything on a silver plater and they ruined it.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I

Ashamray wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

I understand what you say. I also play agressively (2 damage sets with DW and destro) and sustain is really high when you stack regen buff like HotD, minor magicka steal and rune, and I don't complain. I like my magplar both on live and PTS.
But to dominate in each aspect of PvP as a damage dealer you must be able to, well, kill a target. That's the core problem of jabs \ sweeps. Opponents can really reduce channel damage from 25% (avoid 1 tick) to 0 (avoid all 4). Sorcs can spam roots of build a camp of mines, Nightblades can spam Grasp and kite you easily, DKs can Talon you to death (to a draw tbh), and stamina is just more mobile and can backstab you while avoiding jabs. I usually kill everything that just stands in front of my face, but when I meet an opponent who is actually trying to negate my jabs, there is no way to kill him quickly even with full damage build. In short, channels suck.

I usually only use sweeps once during my burst, after they've been CC'ed and right before purifying light explodes

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

I'll concede the point that; in the Battlegrounds (specifically) MagTemplars may very well be in a good place.

However:

- That does not translate to the rest of the game well in any way.
- The vast majority of Players will never touch the PvP aspects of this game (as the vast majority 90+% of player populations are PvE Players), and an even smaller percentage of people are going to delve deeply into the Battlegrounds.
- We don't have to speculate on how it will perform on the Live Servers. We can see right here, on the PTS, what it will play like on the Live servers. The lack of resources due to the loss of Sustain and Cost reduction, the nigh-complete removal of Sustain from the game, the severe nerfs to any type of Cost Reduction, the soul-crushing nerfs to three (3) full Classes by giving the Skills/Abilities that made those Classes "unique" and "fun" to the Warden... none of that is lost to "speculation". What we're seeing here on the PTS is EXACTLY what it will be like on the Live servers.

So while the niche inside of a niche that is the Battlegrounds might hold good things for the MagTemplar, in the entire other 99% of the game;
- MagTemplars are still borked,
- StamTemplars are screwed,
- DK's of all types are getting neutered into oblivion,
- NB's of all types are going to be completely lost in the woods with almost zero effective combat Skills,
- Sustain is still going to be non-existent,
- Cost Reduction is all-but disappearing,
- enemy Health and Damage remain unchanged despite the Players becoming severely weaker,
- front-loaded CP all-but removes the difference between a Player with 60CP and one with 600CP,
- Heavy Attacks become the new combat standard, which will severely slow down combat even with the ever so slight speed increase to those attacks,
- Even with testing the higher resource return from Heavy Attacks, resource micro-management is still the new core focus of doing anything in the game,
- With the damage increase to Light Attacks, combat will become more often Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks focused, with players simply unable to complete more than 1-3 rotations of their Class Skills. This makes combat a boring, mindless slog that is the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goals...

None of this is good anywhere in the game, except for in the tiny Battlegrounds area of the game. A niche-within-a-niche.

That will not be a "good place" for the game once this all goes Live. Ever.

I'm not arguing against anything you're saying. I think you misunderstand me, I'm simply saying that for Pvp, magplar is in a great place relative to where many other classes are. They'll be top tier in small and large scale Pvp, no question.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

Normally I agree with just about everything your write, but I think you are off base here.

I know you think BoL is a "buff," but it's not. The spell is is no way more effective on the PTS than it is on Live. There is nothing about it that makes it perform any better; indeed there are two things that make it perform worse: it coast more and heals less.

Ranged builds are not "completely" shut down. Eclipse is still expensive, still does little damage, actually does give CC immunity without costing the target stamina. It's not at all clear Eclipse will all of a sudden become popular. Let's say I am a sorcerer and I get eclipsed. BFD. I curse you, crushing shock you, Mage's fury you, Eclipse breaks, then I insta cast a frag proc - that's till a good burst. Or I simply use the opportunity to reapply my shields. A NB will just cloak. A DK is not inconvenienced at all by Eclipse. Stam builds don't care. A magplar will just cleanse it. We're just going to see how this plays out, but you are pronouncing it before it even hits Live.

How do Templars have the best magcka sustain all of a sudden? Do you mean the Restoring focus spell that is redundant by the Warden in group that gives me the resistance buffs? Or does the 0.2 second increase on Dark Deal somehow make sorc sustain crap? We don't know what will happen with NB siphoning, but as much as they complained about it, provided the skill was used correctly it represented an efficient use of resources and healed for much more. DKs, well, DKs have been RIP since 1.6.

It is also presumptuous to say that temps "absolutely dominate" mag sorcs. The open world 1v1 scenario is not nearly as clear cut as you are making it out to be. In a group fight, Eclipse isn't going to do you any good because there Eclipse one hits one player at a time: all the other sorcs, NBs, and ranged builds will still hit you with impunity.

Templar will always be good in groups but I hate using that as a barometer for class effectiveness because that's a nice way of saying the class doesn't measure up when it's on it's own. A templar alone is very strong when it comes to not dying. Lacking the on-demand burst when outnumbered, however, makes it a questionable choice in such situation. Any stam build can burst at any time with abilities not contingent on ideal circumstances. There is a debate there, so potentially a templar is 6th as opposed to 2nd of the 8 specs when it comes to solo open world. And 6th is just writing of mNBs, which I think is a mistake because for as much a people say they aren't very good, mNBs in duels are very strong.

Templar is reliant on healing and no matter how you try to sell us that BoL is somehow getting buffed when it's not, your sweeps, your purify, and your breaths are going to be healing you for noticeably less. Meanwhile sorc shields and your stam opponents rally and vigor will be ticking for the same. The Templar is weaker on the PTS than on Live in such mano y mano situations.

You aren't crazy. You are a good player who can get away with the burst or bust style of play in general and not surprising at all on the PTS when folks are experimenting. It's anecdotal evidence. When you come across an opponent who is just as skilled and experienced, you will be in a worse situation than on Live because even if DKs and NBs got nerfed in sustain, their damage did not and you no longer have major mending, which is one of the strongest buffs in the game.

What magika class has better sustain than magplar? Are we running ele drain on msorc now, where's major prophecy coming from?

Yes, a sorc can hold his frag until after his curse explodes and I've recovered from it and try to burst with that. But that won't work in heavy unless you've been drastically outplayed. You can also purge his curse and any resource poisons, an option only stamplar a have.
Add in the roll dodge buff and the only Templar weakness, root spam, has been severely diminished(theoretically, we'll have to see this part in practice on live servers).
Even on live I absolutely can't be burst by 1 player. And that's on a 38k mag 4k spell damage build with infinite sustain. Next patch we drop a little more magika, push to 30k hp, switch skoria/groth for EG/Chokethorn. Now you're able to use spell symm safely during health procs and have unlimited sustain without giving up a 5 PC for it.

BoL is a ridiculously strong heal, even if you've only got minor mending with it. You've still got a ton of healing.

Vigor healing didn't get nerfed but it's much more expensive, so is bloodcraze spin it how you want, but Stam healing got hit hard.

Max damage potential is higher next patch, noticeably, but average damage is going to plummet. People are literally counting on heavy attacks to save them!

At 11k tooltip, a bol will hit for 5.5k heal in PvP. With 25% extra heading that's 1375 extra healing. With minor it's 440 extra heading (8% right?).

BoL has and we'll forever be the anti-execute. The strength of a Templar is his ability to bring players from death to half health via the low healing passive without a resto staff.

So after MW there is no 25% so it's 5.5 +440='s 5940 per BoL. But if someone with 30% in the Befoul CP hits you with major defile that gets reduced by 40% so 5940*.60='s 3564 per BoL so if you don't/can't purify the health return vs the magic cost for BoL is terrible.

Exactly. A 3.5k "burst" heal is awful. LOL! This patch is going to be rough.

Everyone's heal is going to be lower. As a magplar I'm going to rely more on other defensive tools like mistform (which I personally hate) and roots (hello, ice staff).

Sorcerers laugh at befoul!

Docmandu wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I

Ashamray wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

I understand what you say. I also play agressively (2 damage sets with DW and destro) and sustain is really high when you stack regen buff like HotD, minor magicka steal and rune, and I don't complain. I like my magplar both on live and PTS.
But to dominate in each aspect of PvP as a damage dealer you must be able to, well, kill a target. That's the core problem of jabs \ sweeps. Opponents can really reduce channel damage from 25% (avoid 1 tick) to 0 (avoid all 4). Sorcs can spam roots of build a camp of mines, Nightblades can spam Grasp and kite you easily, DKs can Talon you to death (to a draw tbh), and stamina is just more mobile and can backstab you while avoiding jabs. I usually kill everything that just stands in front of my face, but when I meet an opponent who is actually trying to negate my jabs, there is no way to kill him quickly even with full damage build. In short, channels suck.

I usually only use sweeps once during my burst, after they've been CC'ed and right before purifying light explodes

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

I'll concede the point that; in the Battlegrounds (specifically) MagTemplars may very well be in a good place.

However:

- That does not translate to the rest of the game well in any way.
- The vast majority of Players will never touch the PvP aspects of this game (as the vast majority 90+% of player populations are PvE Players), and an even smaller percentage of people are going to delve deeply into the Battlegrounds.
- We don't have to speculate on how it will perform on the Live Servers. We can see right here, on the PTS, what it will play like on the Live servers. The lack of resources due to the loss of Sustain and Cost reduction, the nigh-complete removal of Sustain from the game, the severe nerfs to any type of Cost Reduction, the soul-crushing nerfs to three (3) full Classes by giving the Skills/Abilities that made those Classes "unique" and "fun" to the Warden... none of that is lost to "speculation". What we're seeing here on the PTS is EXACTLY what it will be like on the Live servers.

So while the niche inside of a niche that is the Battlegrounds might hold good things for the MagTemplar, in the entire other 99% of the game;
- MagTemplars are still borked,
- StamTemplars are screwed,
- DK's of all types are getting neutered into oblivion,
- NB's of all types are going to be completely lost in the woods with almost zero effective combat Skills,
- Sustain is still going to be non-existent,
- Cost Reduction is all-but disappearing,
- enemy Health and Damage remain unchanged despite the Players becoming severely weaker,
- front-loaded CP all-but removes the difference between a Player with 60CP and one with 600CP,
- Heavy Attacks become the new combat standard, which will severely slow down combat even with the ever so slight speed increase to those attacks,
- Even with testing the higher resource return from Heavy Attacks, resource micro-management is still the new core focus of doing anything in the game,
- With the damage increase to Light Attacks, combat will become more often Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks focused, with players simply unable to complete more than 1-3 rotations of their Class Skills. This makes combat a boring, mindless slog that is the exact opposite of ZOS's stated goals...

None of this is good anywhere in the game, except for in the tiny Battlegrounds area of the game. A niche-within-a-niche.

That will not be a "good place" for the game once this all goes Live. Ever.

I'm not arguing against anything you're saying. I think you misunderstand me, I'm simply saying that for Pvp, magplar is in a great place relative to where many other classes are. They'll be top tier in small and large scale Pvp, no question.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Magplar is top tier for morrowind PVP, only very slightly behind mag sorc.

After testing through this whole PTS cycle, I can comfortably say that this is demonstrably not true.

i can confidently say magplar is strong in bgs

^
@Ashamray
@Uriel_Nocturne
I'm not sure what you're seeing or experiencing, tbh. The major mending nerf hurts, but everyone is eating hard nerfs. The ability to consistently shut down ranged builds, time incredible burst, the new targeting buff on BoL, and arguably best magika sustain just add up to a very strong class.

Its also worth noting that magplar absolutely dominates mag sorc now, having a hard counter to both curse and frags. Being able to crush the meta/fotm spec adds a lot to the open world viability of a class that already has a lot of tools available.

Ultimately its all just speculation until we see how it performs open world, but I know for certain that in BGs magplar is in a pretty damned good spot. It will outperform all non-warden stam builds and all non-sorc magika builds imo. Good aoe, good passives, decent burst, phenomenal sustain(relative to other classes, not live), and nice utility both solo and grouped.

You can now guarantee you get the big BoL heal, the small one is still non-directional and can heal allies behind you. This alone should provide similar self healing to what major mending gives.

Maybe I'm crazy, but magplar seems to be moving up relative to other specs next patch.

Edit: I should note, I play a very very aggressive style as magplar. I'm a purely solo/duo player so usually in a position of burst and get quick kills or get overwhelmed. I'm stacking skoria+soulshine for damage on PTS and running Soulshine+skoria+Alch on live. It could be that a difference in play style is why I'm seeing differently?

Normally I agree with just about everything your write, but I think you are off base here.

I know you think BoL is a "buff," but it's not. The spell is is no way more effective on the PTS than it is on Live. There is nothing about it that makes it perform any better; indeed there are two things that make it perform worse: it coast more and heals less.

Ranged builds are not "completely" shut down. Eclipse is still expensive, still does little damage, actually does give CC immunity without costing the target stamina. It's not at all clear Eclipse will all of a sudden become popular. Let's say I am a sorcerer and I get eclipsed. BFD. I curse you, crushing shock you, Mage's fury you, Eclipse breaks, then I insta cast a frag proc - that's till a good burst. Or I simply use the opportunity to reapply my shields. A NB will just cloak. A DK is not inconvenienced at all by Eclipse. Stam builds don't care. A magplar will just cleanse it. We're just going to see how this plays out, but you are pronouncing it before it even hits Live.

How do Templars have the best magcka sustain all of a sudden? Do you mean the Restoring focus spell that is redundant by the Warden in group that gives me the resistance buffs? Or does the 0.2 second increase on Dark Deal somehow make sorc sustain crap? We don't know what will happen with NB siphoning, but as much as they complained about it, provided the skill was used correctly it represented an efficient use of resources and healed for much more. DKs, well, DKs have been RIP since 1.6.

It is also presumptuous to say that temps "absolutely dominate" mag sorcs. The open world 1v1 scenario is not nearly as clear cut as you are making it out to be. In a group fight, Eclipse isn't going to do you any good because there Eclipse one hits one player at a time: all the other sorcs, NBs, and ranged builds will still hit you with impunity.

Templar will always be good in groups but I hate using that as a barometer for class effectiveness because that's a nice way of saying the class doesn't measure up when it's on it's own. A templar alone is very strong when it comes to not dying. Lacking the on-demand burst when outnumbered, however, makes it a questionable choice in such situation. Any stam build can burst at any time with abilities not contingent on ideal circumstances. There is a debate there, so potentially a templar is 6th as opposed to 2nd of the 8 specs when it comes to solo open world. And 6th is just writing of mNBs, which I think is a mistake because for as much a people say they aren't very good, mNBs in duels are very strong.

Templar is reliant on healing and no matter how you try to sell us that BoL is somehow getting buffed when it's not, your sweeps, your purify, and your breaths are going to be healing you for noticeably less. Meanwhile sorc shields and your stam opponents rally and vigor will be ticking for the same. The Templar is weaker on the PTS than on Live in such mano y mano situations.

You aren't crazy. You are a good player who can get away with the burst or bust style of play in general and not surprising at all on the PTS when folks are experimenting. It's anecdotal evidence. When you come across an opponent who is just as skilled and experienced, you will be in a worse situation than on Live because even if DKs and NBs got nerfed in sustain, their damage did not and you no longer have major mending, which is one of the strongest buffs in the game.

What magika class has better sustain than magplar? Are we running ele drain on msorc now, where's major prophecy coming from?

Yes, a sorc can hold his frag until after his curse explodes and I've recovered from it and try to burst with that. But that won't work in heavy unless you've been drastically outplayed. You can also purge his curse and any resource poisons, an option only stamplar a have.
Add in the roll dodge buff and the only Templar weakness, root spam, has been severely diminished(theoretically, we'll have to see this part in practice on live servers).
Even on live I absolutely can't be burst by 1 player. And that's on a 38k mag 4k spell damage build with infinite sustain. Next patch we drop a little more magika, push to 30k hp, switch skoria/groth for EG/Chokethorn. Now you're able to use spell symm safely during health procs and have unlimited sustain without giving up a 5 PC for it.

BoL is a ridiculously strong heal, even if you've only got minor mending with it. You've still got a ton of healing.

Vigor healing didn't get nerfed but it's much more expensive, so is bloodcraze spin it how you want, but Stam healing got hit hard.

Max damage potential is higher next patch, noticeably, but average damage is going to plummet. People are literally counting on heavy attacks to save them!

At 11k tooltip, a bol will hit for 5.5k heal in PvP. With 25% extra heading that's 1375 extra healing. With minor it's 440 extra heading (8% right?).

BoL has and we'll forever be the anti-execute. The strength of a Templar is his ability to bring players from death to half health via the low healing passive without a resto staff.

So after MW there is no 25% so it's 5.5 +440='s 5940 per BoL. But if someone with 30% in the Befoul CP hits you with major defile that gets reduced by 40% so 5940*.60='s 3564 per BoL so if you don't/can't purify the health return vs the magic cost for BoL is terrible.

Man.. i hate to be the one that brings you the bad news... but have you looked at the Befoul CP on the PTS yet?! Maxes out at 55% now.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

This was a buff Templar and no nerf Sorc thread. There already are plenty of those. Also there will be only 1 CP PvP campaign come June 6. Befoul will be not that big of a deal because PvP is firmly headed to no CP.

@Feanor

I am well within my rights on this forum to clarify overgeneralized statements. When there is no CP in PvP we can revisit this discussion if you wish. If you believe my post violates the forum rules, feel free to contact a moderator

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

Easy please. No need for hostility. I enjoy your posts usually. It's just that the Templar nerfs seem to have strained your nerves a bit more than usual. Wish the game would just be fun for everyone.

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I'm as sick of all the "Nerf Sorc" threads as I am about all the other changes we're going to enjoy with Update 14, and that's why my reaction to your post may have sounded a little harsh. It wasn't meant that way. I just want to avoid the game being the same trashy experience for everyone.

I'm well aware of the posts you made. And that you found your characters to be still effective of doing the job so to speak, but just not as much fun any more. I read about your vMA on PTS experience and that your Templar cleared with a 430k score.

We're on the same page regarding the direction of the game. I'm as concerned as you. I'd just wish the nerfs would stop for good and we would have balance with fun and powerful characters instead.

Ashamray wrote: »

odtnow wrote: »

Please increase Focused charge range

Why? All gap closers have the same range