On Spear Shards (and morphs - particularly Luminous)

BraidasNM · May 2017

next patch: "Activating spear shards' synergy now removes the resources returned from the casting templar."

just stop asking for changes they keep making it worse

Ron_Burgundy_79 · May 2017

@Wrobel this should be an easy fix. Like i said ealier in this thread, luminous shards should return resources to the caster and blazing spear should stun again. That would make both morphs viable.

KingJ · May 2017

@Paraflex What about small group templars or templars who play solo?They shouldn't have a reliable CC?Not every Templar wants to be a heal bot. With all the AOE flying around I also doubt the disorient isn't broken when you play. Your statement that only bad players didn't like the Disorient makes no Sense,you idea of taking points out of burning light so the skill worked isn't a fixed, or mean that player a bad player for wanting to deal damage.

idk · May 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

@makeumrage
You don't understand my point. And by that you indirectly prove how so many don't even pay attention.
There is literally no mention as to why the resource return to the casting Tempar has been removed.
Maybe you should re-read the dev quote I mentioned and the particular change I was referring to.

In case I have not made myself clear - I have tested this on the PTS - the resource return *is* gone.

Zos made it better for group support which also helps keep the Templar healer in the mix for trial healing.

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

@makeumrage
You don't understand my point. And by that you indirectly prove how so many don't even pay attention.
There is literally no mention as to why the resource return to the casting Tempar has been removed.
Maybe you should re-read the dev quote I mentioned and the particular change I was referring to.

In case I have not made myself clear - I have tested this on the PTS - the resource return *is* gone.

Zos made it better for group support which also helps keep the Templar healer in the mix for trial healing.

Templar healer was going to stay the dominant healer in trials anyways. The problem is they removed the resource return to the caster WITHOUT saying anything and still haven't said anything almost 2 weeks later. That's a problem.

Marto · May 2017

Shards doesn't need to CC.

It's already a stupidly strong ability that has a CC, disorient, AoE, damage over time, with a 28 cast range, an effect area the size of liquid lightning, and is cheap enough to be spamable, with enough damage to even rival some other spamable abilities... And on top of all that It restores the resources of your teammates by a rather large amount, with barely any restriction to it.

Read that out loud, please.

The ability was OP. It was nerfed.

Now we have two morphs.

1. Blazing Spear: Basically Liquid Lightning, with some stamina restore
2. Luminous Shards: A support oriented ability, with little damage, but tons of help for tanks because of the double resource restore.

You want a stun? Equip Aurora Javelin. You don't want to because it sucks? Well, it's getting buffed next patch, and if you still think that's not enough, maybe your expectations are what's wrong.

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

Shards doesn't need to CC.

It's already a stupidly strong ability that has a CC, disorient, AoE, damage over time, with a 28 cast range, an effect area the size of liquid lightning, and is cheap enough to be spamable, with enough damage to even rival some other spamable abilities... And on top of all that It restores the resources of your teammates by a rather large amount, with barely any restriction to it.

Read that out loud, please.

The ability was OP. It was nerfed.

Now we have two morphs.

1. Blazing Spear: Basically Liquid Lightning, with some stamina restore
2. Luminous Shards: A support oriented ability, with little damage, but tons of help for tanks because of the double resource restore.

You want a stun? Equip Aurora Javelin. You don't want to because it sucks? Well, it's getting buffed next patch, and if you still think that's not enough, maybe your expectations are what's wrong.

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

Marto · May 2017

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

Balthyzar · May 2017

It's all about making sure their new Warden class has a place in trials and other end game content. Nerfing templar healers makes a warden seem like a viable replacement.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

Shards doesn't need to CC.

It's already a stupidly strong ability that has a CC, disorient, AoE, damage over time, with a 28 cast range, an effect area the size of liquid lightning, and is cheap enough to be spamable, with enough damage to even rival some other spamable abilities... And on top of all that It restores the resources of your teammates by a rather large amount, with barely any restriction to it.

Read that out loud, please.

The ability was OP. It was nerfed.

Now we have two morphs.

1. Blazing Spear: Basically Liquid Lightning, with some stamina restore
2. Luminous Shards: A support oriented ability, with little damage, but tons of help for tanks because of the double resource restore.

You want a stun? Equip Aurora Javelin. You don't want to because it sucks? Well, it's getting buffed next patch, and if you still think that's not enough, maybe your expectations are what's wrong.

1. A disorient is worthless for a class that has to activate dots to apply self buffs such as major and minor sorcery.
2. The disorient does not apply to the dot version of the skill (blazing spear). The disorient is currently tied to luminous shards.
3. Blazing spear's damage is not comparable to any spammable. If you're counting the dot, how many players are dumb enough to stand in that circle? The initial damage is typically the only damage that applies in pvp.
4. There's a cool down on the synergy. That's a fairly important restriction that you must be forgetting about.
5. Aurora javelin is getting nerfed. The 8m knock back will push enemies out of sweeps range.

Class dismissed.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

Fear is the strongest cc in the game. You're either trolling or you're absolutely clueless.

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

Lol.

timidobserver · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

NB is not a CC class? NB don't have reliable CC?

Is this a troll/sarcasm post or do you actually believe what you are saying?

Marto · May 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

NB is not a CC class? NB don't have reliable CC?

Is this a troll/sarcasm post or do you actually believe what you are saying?

Can you please tell me what the reliable NB CC is, then?

No, stealth doesn't count.
No, Incap Strike doesn't count

When we're talking "reliable" CC, we're talking a CC that can be casted on global cooldown. Abilities like Burning Talons, Shield Charge, Shield Bash, Dizzling Swing, Crystal Frags to some degree...

timidobserver · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

NB is not a CC class? NB don't have reliable CC?

Is this a troll/sarcasm post or do you actually believe what you are saying?

Can you please tell me what the reliable NB CC is, then?

No, stealth doesn't count.
No, Incap Strike doesn't count

When we're talking "reliable" CC, we're talking a CC that can be casted on global cooldown. Abilities like Burning Talons, Shield Charge, Shield Bash, Dizzling Swing, Crystal Frags to some degree...

Okay I was just checking. You are actually serious.

Marto · May 2017

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

1. A disorient is worthless for a class that has to activate dots to apply self buffs such as major and minor sorcery.
2. The disorient does not apply to the dot version of the skill (blazing spear). The disorient is currently tied to luminous shards.
3. Blazing spear's damage is not comparable to any spammable. If you're counting the dot, how many players are dumb enough to stand in that circle? The initial damage is typically the only damage that applies in pvp.
4. There's a cool down on the synergy. That's a fairly important restriction that you must be forgetting about.
5. Aurora javelin is getting nerfed. The 8m knock back will push enemies out of sweeps range.

Class dismissed.

1 Agreed
2. Yup
3. It is on many PVE situations. Specially because of the spear passives
4. Yup. But it's still too short to be giving resources back to the caster.
5. If your intention is to get into sweeps range, use Toppling Charge or Shield Charge. Aurora Javelin is a ranged ability, meant to harass, displace, and put enemies into dangerous situations.

LeifErickson · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

And regarding giving resources to the caster... that's a stupid idea to begin with. Because it makes the ability free.
Hell, it doesn't even make it free. you GAIN resources by casting an ability. In a game where casting abilities reduces resources 99.99% of the time.

It's unintuitive, and silly, and very exploitable.

And this is why zos shouldn't read the forums.

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

1. A disorient is worthless for a class that has to activate dots to apply self buffs such as major and minor sorcery.
2. The disorient does not apply to the dot version of the skill (blazing spear). The disorient is currently tied to luminous shards.
3. Blazing spear's damage is not comparable to any spammable. If you're counting the dot, how many players are dumb enough to stand in that circle? The initial damage is typically the only damage that applies in pvp.
4. There's a cool down on the synergy. That's a fairly important restriction that you must be forgetting about.
5. Aurora javelin is getting nerfed. The 8m knock back will push enemies out of sweeps range.

Class dismissed.

1 Agreed
2. Yup
3. It is on many PVE situations. Specially because of the spear passives
4. Yup. But it's still too short to be giving resources back to the caster.
5. If your intention is to get into sweeps range, use Toppling Charge or Shield Charge. Aurora Javelin is a ranged ability, meant to harass, displace, and put enemies into dangerous situations.

Can you please get off a thread that's meant for Templars to bring up problems with a skill to ZoS? You obviously don't know anything about Templar AND you don't know anything about Nightblades.

Please, just stop.

Marto · May 2017

You want a close range stun? Use Toppling Charge.

You want a long range stun? Use Aurora Javelin

You want both? Too bad. You're asking for too much.

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

You want a close range stun? Use Toppling Charge.

You want a long range stun? Use Aurora Javelin

You want both? Too bad. You're asking for too much.

Like I said, you do NOT know anything about Templar.

Toppling is extremely slow, and isn't a reliable CC.

Javelin will push people out of our range, and we're a class meant to be melee and build defenses with the idea of being melee.

You do not know one thing about Templar, you seriously cannot if you're spewing this nonsense.

GallantGuardian · May 2017

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

You want a close range stun? Use Toppling Charge.

You want a long range stun? Use Aurora Javelin

You want both? Too bad. You're asking for too much.

Like I said, you do NOT know anything about Templar.

Toppling is extremely slow, and isn't a reliable CC.

Javelin will push people out of our range, and we're a class meant to be melee and build defenses with the idea of being melee.

You do not know one thing about Templar, you seriously cannot if you're spewing this nonsense.

Ignore him and he will go away no need for more internal bickering

We were promised the caster would get back the resources and now it's missing the question remains as to is it a glitch ? Or is it tended and why

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

GallantGuardian wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

You want a close range stun? Use Toppling Charge.

You want a long range stun? Use Aurora Javelin

You want both? Too bad. You're asking for too much.

Like I said, you do NOT know anything about Templar.

Toppling is extremely slow, and isn't a reliable CC.

Javelin will push people out of our range, and we're a class meant to be melee and build defenses with the idea of being melee.

You do not know one thing about Templar, you seriously cannot if you're spewing this nonsense.

Ignore him and he will go away no need for more internal bickering

We were promised the caster would get back the resources and now it's missing the question remains as to is it a glitch ? Or is it tended and why

I'd hope it's a bug, but I don't think it is. They removed the visual + the sound effect. A bit too much for a bug, in my opinion. I think we should be given an explanation on the change /:

Ron_Burgundy_79 · May 2017

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

You want a close range stun? Use Toppling Charge.

You want a long range stun? Use Aurora Javelin

You want both? Too bad. You're asking for too much.

Like I said, you do NOT know anything about Templar.

Toppling is extremely slow, and isn't a reliable CC.

Javelin will push people out of our range, and we're a class meant to be melee and build defenses with the idea of being melee.

You do not know one thing about Templar, you seriously cannot if you're spewing this nonsense.

Also has a 3.5m minimum range

Joy_Division · May 2017

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normally I would make a joke of how you must be new here because undocumented nerfs, developers not listening to templar player feedback, and broken promises have been par for the course since Beta (ask the old timers about Restoring Spirit).

But I know you aren't new and I can see you are particularly bothered by this so I will lay out what I think are the two possibilities:

This is likely a bug. I'd like to think it is a bug. ZoS has never been quick to acknowledge bugs. Never. About pretty much anything. It is pretty inexcusable for something as clear cut as this (all they have to do is ask a dev if this is intended, it's not like they need to reproduce this ala say the Streak bug), but it is what it is.

For the other possibility, this maybe intended. Maybe. When they made this change I instantly recognized the very reasons they removed Templar restoring stamina almost became moot, sort of ... because once again we are the only class that can restore the "other" (i.e. not main) resource for classes: you better believe tanks would 1000% prefer a templar Luminous shard than a Warden's Energy Orb, and anyone who has played a magicka toon in PvP knows how valuable their stam pool is. So because of the change, Templars will kind of regain a monopoly of resource return and it's possible that in ZoS's mind this made this skill strong enough to warrant remove the templar's own personal return.

Now, I'm the person who wrote how the Templar soul has been pretty much gutted so what I think about ZoS's changes should be obvious, but for clarity's sake I'll unequivocally say this change (amongst many many many others) should be reverted.

Hopefully we will see a green box in this thread later today just to clear up this issue.

ZoS did not state they were removing this, and had even stated in 3.0.1 that they were working on making this function work better for the casting Templar.

They can at least tell us when they take away something that should be there a a compensation for them continuously nerfing shards. /:

Perhaps they will.

These are the same developers who told me this during the Orsinium patch, when I posted that Puncturing Sweeps received an undocumented 5% nerf to healing.

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

Does it matter that Major Mending and the entire justification for this nerf is no longer applicable? Of course not, the nerf lives on in permanence.

Wasn't this game a whole lot more fun when we were trying to clear Sanctum Ophidia way back in the day with Smokus, Bigtone, Fairly, etc.?

Ron_Burgundy_79 · May 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normally I would make a joke of how you must be new here because undocumented nerfs, developers not listening to templar player feedback, and broken promises have been par for the course since Beta (ask the old timers about Restoring Spirit).

But I know you aren't new and I can see you are particularly bothered by this so I will lay out what I think are the two possibilities:

This is likely a bug. I'd like to think it is a bug. ZoS has never been quick to acknowledge bugs. Never. About pretty much anything. It is pretty inexcusable for something as clear cut as this (all they have to do is ask a dev if this is intended, it's not like they need to reproduce this ala say the Streak bug), but it is what it is.

For the other possibility, this maybe intended. Maybe. When they made this change I instantly recognized the very reasons they removed Templar restoring stamina almost became moot, sort of ... because once again we are the only class that can restore the "other" (i.e. not main) resource for classes: you better believe tanks would 1000% prefer a templar Luminous shard than a Warden's Energy Orb, and anyone who has played a magicka toon in PvP knows how valuable their stam pool is. So because of the change, Templars will kind of regain a monopoly of resource return and it's possible that in ZoS's mind this made this skill strong enough to warrant remove the templar's own personal return.

Now, I'm the person who wrote how the Templar soul has been pretty much gutted so what I think about ZoS's changes should be obvious, but for clarity's sake I'll unequivocally say this change (amongst many many many others) should be reverted.

Hopefully we will see a green box in this thread later today just to clear up this issue.

ZoS did not state they were removing this, and had even stated in 3.0.1 that they were working on making this function work better for the casting Templar.

They can at least tell us when they take away something that should be there a a compensation for them continuously nerfing shards. /:

Perhaps they will.

These are the same developers who told me this during the Orsinium patch, when I posted that Puncturing Sweeps received an undocumented 5% nerf to healing.

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

Does it matter that Major Mending and the entire justification for this nerf is no longer applicable? Of course not, the nerf lives on in permanence.

Wasn't this game a whole lot more fun when we were trying to clear Sanctum Ophidia way back in the day with Smokus, Bigtone, Fairly, etc.?

We can't forget about the purifying ritual nerf either. ZOS for some reason decided to remove purifying ritual (this morph reduced the cost and purified 5 negative effects) and replaced it with ritual of retribution (aoe dot and only purifies 2 negative effects). The templar community was outraged, but instead of reverting the change ZOS gave the additional purifies to the extended ritual morph. Thus, ZOS ninja nerfed our purify by making it cost almost twice as much.

Koensol · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Do you know how to play Magplar? Good, if you do then you know the Javelin "buff" isn't actually a buff. Templar has no reliable CC. None. It's not expectations, it's literally that ZoS doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with the Templar toolkit.

Besides that, we're wondering what happened to the resource restore to the caster on Luminous Shards.

NB don't have a reliable CC.

That's because, just like templars, NB are not a CC class. You're asking for something that should not be given to the class.

You have got to be kidding? Because last I looked, I saw that NB had fear, a root, a stun from stealth, a disorient, AND a cheap ultimate that stuns.

miteba · May 2017

I dont now if anyone has seen the 2017 Series "Legion", which the main character "suffers" from a mental dysfunction, or schizophrenia, and we see the story from his point of view, which means a total mess !!!

The series is awesome really because it is different and creative and makes us see things from other points of view but ... that doenst changes the fact that IT IS A MESS!

sorry for the comparison and the off-topic, but i have the same feeling with the "morrowind templar"...
-> The class will have to almost reinvent herself because with so many changes, in resources nerfing and skill changes.

It seems we will play a completely different class, which lost his mystic ... but i have, yet, some shards of hope that ZOS Devs know what they are doing

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Does it matter that Major Mending and the entire justification for this nerf is no longer applicable? Of course not, the nerf lives on in permanence.

Wasn't this game a whole lot more fun when we were trying to clear Sanctum Ophidia way back in the day with Smokus, Bigtone, Fairly, etc.?

Yeah, I mentioned this nerf before, but they'll keep it /:

That was end of 1.6 around there? Good times ):

Lore_lai · May 2017

Thank you all for your input - here's hoping that we can establish some form of communication.
Many of us are willing to provide constructive conversations, but it just feels like we are disconnected from the devs.

Some, like @Joy_Division have poured their souls into providing feedback, patch after patch.
Stop ignoring us. Talk to us. Please.

manny254 · May 2017

At this point ZoS should just remove the pulse damage on luminous and replace it with something that gives better benefit to the casting templar. Either give the casting Templar resource return to their current lowest stat like on the previous PTS patch, or give it the stun that blazing used to have. At this point these would be the best options to improve the skill.