GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

Guild

• Mages Guild
  • Radiant Magelight (Magelight morph):
    • This morph no longer passively reduces your damage taken by sneak attacks. It continues to passively prevent the stun from sneak attacks.
    • Reduced the cost of this morph by approximately 10%.
    Developer Comments:
    Due to the reduction of sneak attack damage against other player characters, it is no longer necessary for Radiant Magelight to reduce their damage further. This prevents situations where using a sneak attack would actually do less damage than a normal attack. We’ve reduced the cost on this morph to make it more attractive relative to Inner Light.

I'm disappointed to see the stealth damage mitigation from radiant and stealth damage bonus mechanic from sneak disappear. When it reality it could have been avoided by adjusting other mechanics (magelight empower / reducing proc set damage). I never got 1 shot with radiant mage light. Its cause and effect... you dont slot the ability your subject to ganks. You slot radiant mage light.. you and your allies become safe from ganks but your down 1 ability (2 abilties when it was a toggle) that may loose you the fight in a 1v1 against a class not stealth oriented. All these mind games were even better when it was a toggle, you could see it active and players knew you sacrificed to use it.

@Wrobel @GreenSoup2HoT

The situation described is actually a wonderful example of balance: to be safe from something, you have to sacrifice something. To be safe from stealth attacks, you have to give up a damage dealing ability, since magelight was already enough of an offensive buff with the empower passive.

Indeed, the fact that it provided the 50% damage mitigation to your entire group really meant that only a few members had to have it slotted, only a few had to make a sacrifice to grant the boon to all. Sounds like a really good deal to me, perhaps too good, since I can guarantee that the crit damage bonus to stealth attacks, the one being removed, never amounted to 50%.

Adjusting the other mechanic, magelight empower vs. proc set damage, would not accomplish the same thing as removing the stealth damage mitigation/bonus mechanic, because magelight empower is not the counter to proc set damage, whereas magelight's stealth damage mitigation directly counters the stealth damage bonus.

@Dorrino I'm not sure we're playing the same game. Around the time Craglorn launched, there were dozens of end-game PvE guilds competing for PvE Leaderboards and dozens of active PvP guilds on each faction. The game had multiple PvP campaigns--with higher pop caps than the current campaigns--that saw action 24/7.

Fast forward to where we are now. There are basically two hardcore end-game PvE raiding guilds and one is threatening to disband if Morrowind changes go live. PvP, as you well know, has lost a tremendous amount of players. By no metric can you compare the states of the game then and now and say that the game is healthier where it is.

As for some of your other points, I didn't say many of the things you suggest I did (for example, where do I say we shouldn't have to manage resources? I only said that heavy attacks make for bland gameplay and I am prepared to double down on that claim. Most people agree that resource management has become too trivial. But that doesn't mean the pendulum needs to swing so far in the opposite direction).

ganzaeso wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Weapon

• Two Handed
  • Cleave: Increased the damage over time of this ability and its morphs by approximately 16%.
• Bow
  • Heavy Attacks now automatically fire when they are fully charged.
    Developer Comment:
    Fully-charged Heavy Attacks will be more important with the resource changes coming in this update, so we want to make sure there are no gameplay barriers to using them.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Please inform the DEVs that most player know how to release their mouse button to complete a heavy attack. There is no gameplay barrier to that. There is no need to change the way this works currently.

Please make it a toggle option if the DEVs insist on this change.

Agreed... make this a toggle option!!!

I don't think the DEVs are trying to help bow users at all. I think they are looking for ways to discourage the majority of NB players from entering PvP by taking away all their tools. Holding a heavy bow attack while in stealth until the moment is right to attack is "key" to many builds and play styles (not all, I know that). If the goal is truly to help overcome some barrier, make it an option for those who want it.

In general, I think ZOS might be forgetting that this game is about balance. My NB is a max burst damage build, which means that I have very little defense if I screw up (which happens often). I'll take the nerfs in stealth, damage, sustain, etc... but for god sake give us something back... perhaps fix cloak in PvP so that it works more than 30% of the time or fear which works maybe 10% of the time (in my experience)? I know the magelight change will help a little. How about keeping the upcoming stealth damage nerf in place, but increase the stealth damage bonus more than it was against shields?

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

arasysb14_ESO wrote: »

Nerfing bsw and improving war maiden ...


Go nerf yourself zos, im seriously done for good.

Yeah i think war maiden now maybe BiS for all magicka dps classes.

Probably for none of them. Even NBs and Templars are likely to do elemental damage from:

• Light attacks
• Heavy attacks
• Blockades
• Reflective Light (if Templar)
• Destro or Mage's Guild ultimate
• Monster set

Oompuh wrote: »

Julianos and BSW scale with Major and Minor Sorcery. War-Maiden does not.

Is this a bug or WaI? I can't imagine why it would be intended.

Patch 3.0 is going to be known as the patch that sucked all the fun out of ESO

Good changes overall. Yet, some suggestions:

- BWS: don't nerf the set (yes it is too strong compared with all - weaker - alternatives), buff the alternatives. That way, you open new possibilites without frustrating all those who already have a BSW set and don't want to go looking for something new

- stun from stealth attacks: NB gankers will hate me, but sorry, this should go completely. The major buff for a surprise attack out of stealth should be SURPRISE. I can live with the 100% crit strike guarantee on top because it somehow makes sense, but considering the nerf to ressources, the stun is too much. Just remove it and give radiant magelight some other utility.

- shards and orbs: I really dislike the shared cooldown on both, especially after the partly un-nerf of shards. In heavy battle situations it's simply not possible to select the one you want if both are right in front of you. Very often you grab a shard, activate the synergy and - bang, get the orb that was floating by instead.

- minor stamina steal: With repentance gone as the game's biggest stamina refill, we need some help for stamina players. Unless I totally missed it (stupid me, then!), there is nothing comparable to minor magicasteal for stam builds. Pls add.

- armor restyle: yes yes, 1001st post on this. But - hey! - what exactly is the problem with allowing players to restyle their armor in the look they like most? I don't think everybody would run around in Xyvkyn after that.

ADDED
- siphoning strikes: I still feel the restriction to either magica or stamina regen (plus health) is a gamechanger, and not in a positive way. NBs loose versatility, especially in PVP. Why not open up an alternative? Give morph #1 health regen plus regen on the bigger pool (magica or stamina), give morph #2 magica and stamina regen, but no heal. And no, there should NOT be a lower regen ticking while the ability runs plus an additional "bonus" at the end. It should be a constant and consistent buff.

The ironic thing about the bow HA change is that while it does reduce the hold and fire stealth attack builds it makes bow spam a lot easier in pvp as well. Like now you can fire a lethal arrow while hold heavy attack and fire it soon after with ease. So there are benefits to the change in pvp...

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

Second... And this is more important, this expansion and sustain changes doesn't make the game harder or more complicated. It makes it much easier, super *** simplified, no room for player progression in terms of player skill, or refinement of your rotation.

I still don't see the reason behind this argument.

Do people assume they need to use a heavy attack each second to sustain?

My experience on pts shows otherwise.

In a dps build you might need some number of heavies, but the rest are all light/medium attacks.

You still need to perfect your animation cancel skills, you still need to swap bars in time within the rotation.

The only thing that is being changed that you either need to incorporate more sustain pieces of gear or you need to add *some* amounts of heavy attacks to your rotation.

And since, unless proven otherwise, you need to replace only part of light attacks for heavies - your rotation becomes more complicated.

Additionally since now you need to pay much more attention to to your resources the sheer ability to sustain coupled with top dps will require much higher personal skill level from the player..

That all stands though if you don't need to use a heavy attack each second though:)

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

It takes an interesting and exciting combat system and turns into a *** joke. That is why people are upset, and honestly, I think they have every right to be.

And i still fail to see how come that light attack->skill is 'an interesting and exciting combat system' and 'light attack->skill->light attack->skill->heavy attack->skill' is not.

spiiros wrote: »

Looks like someone doesn't do endgame content.

Which part of my post doesn't apply to the endgame?

Kilandros wrote: »

@Dorrino I'm not sure we're playing the same game. Around the time Craglorn launched, there were dozens of end-game PvE guilds competing for PvE Leaderboards and dozens of active PvP guilds on each faction. The game had multiple PvP campaigns--with higher pop caps than the current campaigns--that saw action 24/7.

Yet the game had considerably less players overall and most of its reviews were far from favorable.

Mmos don't change their payment model from subscription based because it's fun. They are forced to do so, because they're dying.

I did NOT play before Tamriel Unlimited, because i've seen the beta and was certain that unfortunately ES-based mmo is not possible. Then i had a chance to play it after TU and that was the best mmo i ever played. And still is, that's why i'm here.

So tell me, if it was that good pre-TU, how come that only with changes of some parts of the dev team, changes of its subscription model and drastic changes to the game itself it finally started growing?

Kilandros wrote: »

Fast forward to where we are now. There are basically two hardcore end-game PvE raiding guilds and one is threatening to disband if Morrowind changes go live. PvP, as you well know, has lost a tremendous amount of players. By no metric can you compare the states of the game then and now and say that the game is healthier where it is.

Pvp had full Azura and half-full Had when i started playing pvp 2 years ago.

Pvp has full TF and half-full Had right now.

I'm not counting non-cp, non-vet and dead campaigns here.

My addon recorded 12000 unique ACCOUNTS playing in TF over the course of last 3-4 months.

I'm not sure what metrics you use to justify that people are leaving pvp.

Can't compare PVE guilds since i have not been playing pre-TU.

Kilandros wrote: »

As for some of your other points, I didn't say many of the things you suggest I did (for example, where do I say we shouldn't have to manage resources? I only said that heavy attacks make for bland gameplay and I am prepared to double down on that claim.

Ok, but 'heavy attacks make for bland gameplay' is not equal to 'this dev team needs to be changed' right?:)

We can discuss heavy attacks specifically and find a better way for active resource sustain.

Sorry if i was a bit harsh on you specifically, the hysteria on the forums affects me as well:)

Kilandros wrote: »

Most people agree that resource management has become too trivial. But that doesn't mean the pendulum needs to swing so far in the opposite direction).

Yep, so let's think how to make resource-management being a staple of combat experience instead of its most important part.

I'm sure ZOS wants to find that balance as much as we do.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

You're making a whole lot of assumptions here yourself though. The biggest one is that resource management is somehow superior to not having to manage resources in the first place. It's not.

You are totally correct in that was my assumption.

My reasoning was quite simple - you add additional factor to care about and gear around to the combat system that ignored it before. Thus by definition you increase the complexity of the combat system and make mastering it more challenging than before. We might argue how FUN that would be, but i'm not sure how it can be argued that it's not more complex.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

And it's not more fun either, at least for the vast majority. This change isn't making the game more challenging, it's making it more annoying and micro-managey.

But it becomes 'annoying and micro-managey' exactly because it becomes more complex:) You didn't need to manage something before. Now you do.

What i don't understand why would people oppose to that? Just because they like the easier system? Because the game is too complex already? Both reasons combined?

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

From what I understand, one of the reasons the game did so poorly out of the gate BECAUSE there was so much emphasis on having to manage resources and work in heavy attacks. This was before I was around, but while leveling my stamDK, there were times I was forced to heavy attack for half the fight. It is NOT a fun way to play a game, at least in my humble opinion. I haven't been here long, but I've been playing MMOs on and off for almost 10 years now.

I wasn't there as well. Now people tend just to throw around 'not fun' and 'not fluid' and 'not fun' again. I personally fail to understand why, but if people are that much insistent, why not to propose a change to active resource management system instead of bashing the whole concept?

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

IMO, there are 2 paths to an rpg: ability based or attack based. Most MMO rpgs are ability based, where you use your abilities, and using the same ability too often or not using certain replenishing abilities will drain your resources. However, you don't need to worry about things like light or heavy attacks, as they often have no bearing on your resource use.

The second path is attack based, where you have a combination of light attack heavy attack, side attack, overhead attack, things like that, etc. These types of attacks / blocks will drain your resources accordingly. I've never played it, but For Honor comes to mind. I think that has a stamina bar, right? Point being, there are no extraneous abilities on top of your standard swordplay techniques.

In this example i fail to see the difference between attacks and abilities. How an attack is different from an ability with the attack's animation and damage type.

Also, in For Honor, in addition to the 'attacks' you mentioned they have a plethora of 'abilities' fired by performing pertain combos.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

The problem comes when you try and merge these two paths together. Dragon Age: Inquisition did it, and frankly I stopped playing that game because I found melee to be infuriating. Much like ESO, you had to land light and heavy attacks in between using your abilities, or you would run out of resources in under a minute. It was a fantastic game with an awful abomination of a resources system. Eventually, they added an autoattack feature, but it came months later and didn't work properly for melee characters.

My point is that combining a light-heavy attack style of gameplay with resource-intensive ability/skill usage just creates too much of a headache, both for balance purposes and just in terms of general playability and enjoyment.

You perfectly explained WHAT you didn't like, but it's still unclear WHY you didn't like that.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I'm dreading having to go back to just heavy attacking every few seconds, now that I've finally got enough CP on live to get through combat without doing that for most open world encounters. Even with 180 CP now, I still can't sustain for more than a minute or two on my stamDK though, and it shows during dungeons.

What if you'll need to use 1-2 heavy in 10 sec?

I'm not sure why people assume they need to heavy attack each second or each 2 seconds.

If for some reason it's indeed the case and no sustain sets can change it without intorducing 25%+ reduction to dps, then i agree that ZOS needs to tweak the numbers a bit more. I'm quite certain their intention is to introduce resource management to the game, not to make it its major focus.

so what about Silks of the Sun Set ? it still gives health for 2 piece bonus =( a hope you will fix it like other sets!

And concider BSW to change SD of it proc to 550! or it will be worth then other sets!

I am not sure how I feel about losing the Hp from Strenght of automation.
I know that seems strange but I am a PVP Stam-gank-blade.
I only need the one crit to kill you, the one from cloak.
More Crit chance doesn't mean much to me. I'd prefer weapon damage instead. Or just having more health to give me chance to escape if I screw it up.

Bow heavy change, >:(, I want to charge up a bow heavy attack from stealth and wait this prevents it.

Yay! Magelight change though .. cost reduction also much appreciated since I also use it.

BSW nerf . for my MagDK.. I get it MagDK was pretty much only the non sorc that isn't substantially nerfed compared to Live. Since they already had magicka problems and had to heavy attack on live. I understand BSW was too strong so a nerf is not unexpected. I was only able to get 14K dps on live, this is going to suck for me . This is my PVE character as well. The proc chance change seems fair but the spell damage is really going to bite me.

Good change on the Netch animation.
and Yay quest fixes, those were annoying.

What are the odds that this will go down in ESO as the single worst update in the game's history? If anything they should just remove the class concept that they have and replace it with a "TRUE" ES Class concept, make it so the class you pick only determines STARTING SKILLS and nothing else, have it so any class can learn any ability, If you think that then everyone would have the same build then you are wrong because not everyone even does that now, right now everyone could use the same class but I still see diversity among players so not everyone follows this so called "Flavour of the Month"

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

Guild

• Mages Guild
  • Radiant Magelight (Magelight morph):
    • This morph no longer passively reduces your damage taken by sneak attacks. It continues to passively prevent the stun from sneak attacks.
    • Reduced the cost of this morph by approximately 10%.
    Developer Comments:
    Due to the reduction of sneak attack damage against other player characters, it is no longer necessary for Radiant Magelight to reduce their damage further. This prevents situations where using a sneak attack would actually do less damage than a normal attack. We’ve reduced the cost on this morph to make it more attractive relative to Inner Light.

@Wrobel Here's a little rant but its my honest opinion about this change.

I believe your going to regret ever changing this ability's function but there is one missing piece you at zos have left out to justify this change in my opinion. How much stealth damage are we losing (vs players or monsters while attacking from stealth)? The patchnotes only stated of a stealth damage bonus but not how much it was. No where on the forums can i find the answer.

What if the right thing to do is to leave the stealth damage bonus and Magelight unchanged but make it so Magelight cannot empower your next attack while in stealth. In my opinion, if you want to tone down stealth damage, it needs to be done by getting rid of this easily accessible empower making Onslaught/Snipe/Wrecking Blow or any other heavy hitting attack that was 1 shotting players... not that strong after losing 20% total damage. [Also reduce proc set damage please.]

Im honestly shocked that this ability is being changed when this skill alone created its own playstyle dynamics for pvp. Now all players are vulnerable to ganks. No longer can i sit in the middle of a group of players and protect them from being bombed by a magicka nightblade with radiant magelight slotted. No longer can i sit out in the open in hopes someone tries to gank me.. then punish them because i had radiant mage light slotted.. preventing some damage (console players cannot see enemy active buffs).

I was a big advocate for the old toggled radiant mage light back in the day, you felt like a sentry and gankers feared you. Not to many people wanted to invest using the ability on both bars but if you did... you created a whole new dynamic that gankers had to worry about. The toggled magelight created gankers that killed other gankers. Something that doesn't happen to often anymore. Gankers knew to stay away from you because you had it floating around you potentially revealing them. I miss those days.

I'm disappointed to see the stealth damage mitigation from radiant and stealth damage bonus mechanic from sneak disappear. When it reality it could have been avoided by adjusting other mechanics (magelight empower / reducing proc set damage). I never got 1 shot with radiant mage light. Its cause and effect... you dont slot the ability your subject to ganks. You slot radiant mage light.. you and your allies become safe from ganks but your down 1 ability (2 abilties when it was a toggle) that may loose you the fight in a 1v1 against a class not stealth oriented. All these mind games were even better when it was a toggle, you could see it active and players knew you sacrificed to use it.

This change reminds me of when we lost camouflage hunters bonus damage to vampires... which made me use the toggled radiant mage light in the first place on my stamina nightblade vampire. It was cause and effect.. your a vampire, your subject to one shots. Which is why so many vampires at the time were using Radiant Mage Light. You use to see vampire gankers with radiant mage light hunting the none vampire gankers using camouflage hunter... so many fond memories.


I just hope your ready for the complaining wrobel. Without stealth damage mitigation, nobody's safe from the nightblade.

Nobody is safe from the nightblade?

Have you read any other patch notes or just this one about Magelight?

max_only wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

Guild

• Mages Guild
  • Radiant Magelight (Magelight morph):
    • This morph no longer passively reduces your damage taken by sneak attacks. It continues to passively prevent the stun from sneak attacks.
    • Reduced the cost of this morph by approximately 10%.
    Developer Comments:
    Due to the reduction of sneak attack damage against other player characters, it is no longer necessary for Radiant Magelight to reduce their damage further. This prevents situations where using a sneak attack would actually do less damage than a normal attack. We’ve reduced the cost on this morph to make it more attractive relative to Inner Light.

@Wrobel Here's a little rant but its my honest opinion about this change.

I believe your going to regret ever changing this ability's function but there is one missing piece you at zos have left out to justify this change in my opinion. How much stealth damage are we losing (vs players or monsters while attacking from stealth)? The patchnotes only stated of a stealth damage bonus but not how much it was. No where on the forums can i find the answer.

What if the right thing to do is to leave the stealth damage bonus and Magelight unchanged but make it so Magelight cannot empower your next attack while in stealth. In my opinion, if you want to tone down stealth damage, it needs to be done by getting rid of this easily accessible empower making Onslaught/Snipe/Wrecking Blow or any other heavy hitting attack that was 1 shotting players... not that strong after losing 20% total damage. [Also reduce proc set damage please.]

Im honestly shocked that this ability is being changed when this skill alone created its own playstyle dynamics for pvp. Now all players are vulnerable to ganks. No longer can i sit in the middle of a group of players and protect them from being bombed by a magicka nightblade with radiant magelight slotted. No longer can i sit out in the open in hopes someone tries to gank me.. then punish them because i had radiant mage light slotted.. preventing some damage (console players cannot see enemy active buffs).

I was a big advocate for the old toggled radiant mage light back in the day, you felt like a sentry and gankers feared you. Not to many people wanted to invest using the ability on both bars but if you did... you created a whole new dynamic that gankers had to worry about. The toggled magelight created gankers that killed other gankers. Something that doesn't happen to often anymore. Gankers knew to stay away from you because you had it floating around you potentially revealing them. I miss those days.

I'm disappointed to see the stealth damage mitigation from radiant and stealth damage bonus mechanic from sneak disappear. When it reality it could have been avoided by adjusting other mechanics (magelight empower / reducing proc set damage). I never got 1 shot with radiant mage light. Its cause and effect... you dont slot the ability your subject to ganks. You slot radiant mage light.. you and your allies become safe from ganks but your down 1 ability (2 abilties when it was a toggle) that may loose you the fight in a 1v1 against a class not stealth oriented. All these mind games were even better when it was a toggle, you could see it active and players knew you sacrificed to use it.

This change reminds me of when we lost camouflage hunters bonus damage to vampires... which made me use the toggled radiant mage light in the first place on my stamina nightblade vampire. It was cause and effect.. your a vampire, your subject to one shots. Which is why so many vampires at the time were using Radiant Mage Light. You use to see vampire gankers with radiant mage light hunting the none vampire gankers using camouflage hunter... so many fond memories.


I just hope your ready for the complaining wrobel. Without stealth damage mitigation, nobody's safe from the nightblade.

Nobody is safe from the nightblade?

Have you read any other patch notes or just this one about Magelight?

Coming from purly a ganking perspective, onslaught or proc gankers are still gonna be one banging players. This change is honestly not a good one.