PTS Patch Notes v3.0.3

Saturn

Dorrino wrote: »

And since we've been playing this game where resources are not a factor for at least (at least) a year a lot of people assume that's how the game's supposed to be played. This period of resource-irrelevance is fully on ZOS though. It's not great they're trying to fix it only now, but it HAD to happen.

This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex. I've seen people being mad when devs streamlined classes and game mechanics. I've seen people complain when devs kept nerfing the content. But this is the first time when i see people shouting and swearing when devs are trying to make a non-cooldown and non-downtime gameplay to rely on SOMETHING.

You don't like to use heavies to sustain? Then WHAT would you like to use instead? Nothing? Sustain should 'just happen'? What is YOUR job then? To perform really simple (compared to many other mmos) rotations and don't stand in red? Is THAT what you're trying this game combat to be? Is that the pinnacle of mmo experience?

So what are you complaining about again?

@Dorrino
The thing is, PvE has been the same way pretty much since the endgame community began, and hasn't faced a change to the way it works on this scale before. You say that resources haven't been a factor for at least a year, but that isn't correct. Since Update 6 in 2015 the game has worked the same way it does now, where rotations are what matter for DPS. It also worked that way before, to an extent, although back then there was such a vast imbalance between classes that it was overshadowed.

I don't understand why you would write something like, "This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex." If you don't understand that people are naturally adverse to change, then you need to study a little bit more, because it's something you always see no matter what kind of change is made, and no matter where. Further, a change so very late and unannounced 3 years into the lifespan of an MMO is of course going to cause rage amongst those who are best at the most optimal system, i.e. the "focus on rotation / leave resource-management to the healers" system that endgame is currently all about.

Also, from all the feedback, which you seem to have ignored, it has already been noted that the veteran Halls of Fabrication has been completed several times on the PTS, with some people talking about hardmode also having been conquered. Which part of that says the game has become "HARDER and more complex" as you so eloquently put it? The fact that the new trial has already been completed, when vMaw wasn't ever fully completed on the PTS when it was available, speaks volumes about the lack in difficulty of the new trial, as well as the game overall. And as such I don't agree with your assesment that the game has become more complex and difficult, because of the sustain changes. To achieve a more difficult and complex game they would have to perform a major change to the entire game and its systems, but as they has been left in the same state, the rule that DPS beats Mechanics will still be true, and as such those with the highest DPS will prevail.

Heavy attack builds are a regression of skillful play, as they require a lot less to be possible than the current endgame builds. ESO on live right now has a fairly horizontal progression model, where gear does matter, but not as much as a good rotation and usage of skills, meaning that a player with the best-in-slot gear who is not able to fully utilise it will be easily beaten in DPS by someone who has a better rotation and build. With the changes forcing people into heavy attack builds, as they are the best in terms of overall DPS (as noted by several skilful players on this very forum), we are seeing a shift towards more vertical progression, as the skill required to pull off these builds are significantly less than what the top builds on Live demand, meaning gear will become more important for high dps than is currently the case. If the barrier for entry is lowered too much and anyone can simply waltz in while wearing the best gear and beat any given content, then ESO will no longer be indistinguishable from an MMO like WoW.

This is of course just my opinion, but it is also one that I see echoed in a lot of players who are currently at the top of the endgame community.

I think it will definitely be interesting to see where ESO goes from here, and while I'm obviously dismayed at this nonsensical change I will stick around and see how people adapt to it or if the game falters. It is very likely that if there is no skill progression to be had that the endgame community will turn into a swing-door, as some predict, mirroring MMOs with vertical progression that has its members replaced every content cycle.

Dorrino

Saturn wrote: »

@Dorrino
The thing is, PvE has been the same way pretty much since the endgame community began, and hasn't faced a change to the way it works on this scale before. You say that resources haven't been a factor for at least a year, but that isn't correct. Since Update 6 in 2015 the game has worked the same way it does now, where rotations are what matter for DPS. It also worked that way before, to an extent, although back then there was such a vast imbalance between classes that it was overshadowed.

@Saturn
So it indeed true that 'resources haven't been a factor for at least a year'?:) 'At least' means 'one year or more'.

Additionally this is not correct that pve was the same in terms of resources management starting at 'Update 6 in 2015'. Each patch that increased CP cap improved resource sustain. Thus sustain gradually have been moving from being a 'minor factor' to being irrelevant.

Saturn wrote: »

I don't understand why you would write something like, "This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex." If you don't understand that people are naturally adverse to change, then you need to study a little bit more, because it's something you always see no matter what kind of change is made, and no matter where.

People are averse to change, especially the change they correctly or incorrectly (as in this case) perceive as 'bad'. The thing is that mmo games rarely make game-wide changes to make their games harder and even when it happens mmo communities being quite competitive by nature of mmos usually have harder time finding justifications why they don't like harder state of the game. See, if somebody complains the game becomes harder, he explicitly or implicitly complains that his player skill might be not sufficient to handle the game. Which is hard to admit for many people in this environment.

Saturn wrote: »

Further, a change so very late and unannounced 3 years into the lifespan of an MMO

This change was mentioned a couple of times during the last year and, which is more important most people understood that something was wrong when everybody was given a resource replenishing mechanic, heavy attacks, (and the correspondeing cp star) that was rarely used outside of pvp content.

Saturn wrote: »

is of course going to cause rage amongst those who are best at the most optimal system, i.e. the "focus on rotation / leave resource-management to the healers" system that endgame is currently all about.

It's really hard to call this system 'optimal'. Why could it be that? What is the justification that other people should solve your own gearing problems? Is it convenient? Yes, sure. Is it very simple? Most definitely. Most other mmos never delegate resource management to other people, because their devs understandably try to make the combat exciting at all skill levels and reducing its complexity should have really compelling reasons behind it. Usual one is 'our target audience en mass gets overwhelmed by the combat complexity and leaves the game confused'.

The system that you hastily called the 'optimal' doesn't seem to be close to that complexity level both for devs and myself.

Saturn wrote: »

Also, from all the feedback, which you seem to have ignored, it has already been noted that the veteran Halls of Fabrication has been completed several times on the PTS, with some people talking about hardmode also having been conquered.

Which is awesome.

Saturn wrote: »

Which part of that says the game has become "HARDER and more complex" as you so eloquently put it?

The combat system of the game. Not the game's content. Harder doesn't mean 'impossible'. Top guilds instantly adapted thus the results. Which once again shows that these changes are minor in nature and that they mostly contribute to combat complexity and gearing variety.

Saturn wrote: »

The fact that the new trial has already been completed, when vMaw wasn't ever fully completed on the PTS when it was available, speaks volumes about the lack in difficulty of the new trial, as well as the game overall.

This speaks volumes about ZOS taking the lesson from Maw and adjusting the difficulty of the new dungeon to be more accessible to the audience. The difficulty of Maw was, and to an extent, is of concern to the general playerbase.

As far as i understand HoF is easier, but that's for the top guilds. As it should be in the case of the content that serves as as one of the key selling points of Morrowind.

Saturn wrote: »

And as such I don't agree with your assesment that the game has become more complex and difficult, because of the sustain changes. To achieve a more difficult and complex game they would have to perform a major change to the entire game and its systems, but as they has been left in the same state, the rule that DPS beats Mechanics will still be true, and as such those with the highest DPS will prevail.

Which yet again shows that the changes still leave the whole game accessible to the playerbase, which leaves us with flavour-ish things like number of combat factors and slight gearing choices variation.

Saturn wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are a regression of skillful play, as they require a lot less to be possible than the current endgame builds. ESO on live right now has a fairly horizontal progression model, where gear does matter, but not as much as a good rotation and usage of skills, meaning that a player with the best-in-slot gear who is not able to fully utilise it will be easily beaten in DPS by someone who has a better rotation and build. With the changes forcing people into heavy attack builds, as they are the best in terms of overall DPS (as noted by several skilful players on this very forum), we are seeing a shift towards more vertical progression, as the skill required to pull off these builds are significantly less than what the top builds on Live demand, meaning gear will become more important for high dps than is currently the case. If the barrier for entry is lowered too much and anyone can simply waltz in while wearing the best gear and beat any given content, then ESO will no longer be indistinguishable from an MMO like WoW.

This is understandable, but is based on a wrong premise and thus irrelevant. The new system doesn't force anybody into HA builds. This opinion resulted from confusion of players with the changes and ZOS way of articulating those.

As it have been shown by myself and other people 'heavy attacks' builds are not necessary at all. Instead they became a valuable option for people that would like to use them. Apparently the new system allows to adjust the dependence on heavy attacks as means of sustain in a wide range from maximum dependence (heavy attack specific builds) to zero dependence, while each of the options provides similar level of dps.

This above is that build variety and additional complexity that was introduced by the changes.

It so happened that many people hopped on the bandwagon of bashing zos before even performing basic tests.

Saturn wrote: »

I think it will definitely be interesting to see where ESO goes from here, and while I'm obviously dismayed at this nonsensical change I will stick around and see how people adapt to it or if the game falters. It is very likely that if there is no skill progression to be had that the endgame community will turn into a swing-door, as some predict, mirroring MMOs with vertical progression that has its members replaced every content cycle.

And this is an example where confusion can lead people:D

Alsek

I overall like the idea behind the changes and looking forward to the update. Make resource management more of a challenge; therefore, make the game/fights more tactical not just going through the same rotation until someone messes it up.After watching the Youtube video, I even get the "math" behind it. However, few things doesn't make sense.

1. Some classes have "free" resource management ability and some has ability that requires the same resource as it restores.
How is that balanced?
I have a character with each class and I have tested all.
For example: my Stam NB. I have not 1 ability that requires Magicka. Now on it will also require Leeching Strikes which is also a Stam ability. Why do we even have a Magicka pool? If we can have "free" resource ability (for some classes), we could have resource management ability that would require the opposite resource. It might not sounds ok at first, but it would make more since. (Stamina restore - Magicka ability and vica-versa). Even if the ability would have a higher cost, it would make more since and would help out tremendously as it would utilize an unused resource.
Imagine a Tank: Magicka tank - resource ability cost Stam. Are you blocking or do you want to use your magicka abilities? Now that is a tactical decision.

As for the Leeching Strikes goes, "gives lower resource back with each hits, but a bigger at the end". In PVE I can see it work; however, most of the time you will never see the benefit in PVP simply because you die before you would get the resource. I think it would be better if it would be a higher constant return either with hits or just over time.

2. Another thing which contradict with the fast paste tactical approach. With this new patch most of my abilities has a few hundred Stam or Magicka differences between them. I see how it can still make a difference in a long fight such as PVE. However, in either PVE or PVP makes no sense as it takes the "thinking" game out of the fight again. Doesn't matter what skill I use they all cost the same!
What about the idea of low risk-low reward and high risk-high reward playing style.
For example: High Damage/or/Versatile abilities should cost more, but one would run the risk of running out of resources. On the other hand, low Damage/Specific skills should cost lot less. Now if someone likes the faster and someone the slower more sustainable playing style they have a choice. Now imagine those game styles meet....still SKILL and TACTIC would win.

3. Lastly, It has nothing to do with the new patch I just don't want to do a new post for it. RNG Drop! Probably the most criticized aspect of the game. I know it would take a lots of work to change it. However, would you consider to change the specific item drops to a very specific material? Material could be sold, but final product would not.
This way,
- 1. you could make it the 10th crafting Traits to research- players would invest more into crafting.
- 2. After "several runs" we would know that we could craft a certain weapon or head gear and we wouldn't have to farm for months for 1 item and get sick of the game.
- 3. making the materials salable, but not the final product. (May be even requiring the Vet mode finish before crafting). Would make Farming "more" enjoyable due to some foreseeable profit, while you are still limiting the items availability.

ps: auto trigger Heavy Attack! - bad idea. How is that tactical? Sometimes you need to time your HA perfectly. Now it will be harder as you cant control the release.....just a thought.

Doctordarkspawn

Dorrino wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@Dorrino
The thing is, PvE has been the same way pretty much since the endgame community began, and hasn't faced a change to the way it works on this scale before. You say that resources haven't been a factor for at least a year, but that isn't correct. Since Update 6 in 2015 the game has worked the same way it does now, where rotations are what matter for DPS. It also worked that way before, to an extent, although back then there was such a vast imbalance between classes that it was overshadowed.

@Saturn
So it indeed true that 'resources haven't been a factor for at least a year'?:) 'At least' means 'one year or more'.

Additionally this is not correct that pve was the same in terms of resources management starting at 'Update 6 in 2015'. Each patch that increased CP cap improved resource sustain. Thus sustain gradually have been moving from being a 'minor factor' to being irrelevant.

Saturn wrote: »

I don't understand why you would write something like, "This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex." If you don't understand that people are naturally adverse to change, then you need to study a little bit more, because it's something you always see no matter what kind of change is made, and no matter where.

People are averse to change, especially the change they correctly or incorrectly (as in this case) perceive as 'bad'. The thing is that mmo games rarely make game-wide changes to make their games harder and even when it happens mmo communities being quite competitive by nature of mmos usually have harder time finding justifications why they don't like harder state of the game. See, if somebody complains the game becomes harder, he explicitly or implicitly complains that his player skill might be not sufficient to handle the game. Which is hard to admit for many people in this environment.

Saturn wrote: »

Further, a change so very late and unannounced 3 years into the lifespan of an MMO

This change was mentioned a couple of times during the last year and, which is more important most people understood that something was wrong when everybody was given a resource replenishing mechanic, heavy attacks, (and the correspondeing cp star) that was rarely used outside of pvp content.

Saturn wrote: »

is of course going to cause rage amongst those who are best at the most optimal system, i.e. the "focus on rotation / leave resource-management to the healers" system that endgame is currently all about.

It's really hard to call this system 'optimal'. Why could it be that? What is the justification that other people should solve your own gearing problems? Is it convenient? Yes, sure. Is it very simple? Most definitely. Most other mmos never delegate resource management to other people, because their devs understandably try to make the combat exciting at all skill levels and reducing its complexity should have really compelling reasons behind it. Usual one is 'our target audience en mass gets overwhelmed by the combat complexity and leaves the game confused'.

The system that you hastily called the 'optimal' doesn't seem to be close to that complexity level both for devs and myself.

Saturn wrote: »

Also, from all the feedback, which you seem to have ignored, it has already been noted that the veteran Halls of Fabrication has been completed several times on the PTS, with some people talking about hardmode also having been conquered.

Which is awesome.

Saturn wrote: »

Which part of that says the game has become "HARDER and more complex" as you so eloquently put it?

The combat system of the game. Not the game's content. Harder doesn't mean 'impossible'. Top guilds instantly adapted thus the results. Which once again shows that these changes are minor in nature and that they mostly contribute to combat complexity and gearing variety.

Saturn wrote: »

The fact that the new trial has already been completed, when vMaw wasn't ever fully completed on the PTS when it was available, speaks volumes about the lack in difficulty of the new trial, as well as the game overall.

This speaks volumes about ZOS taking the lesson from Maw and adjusting the difficulty of the new dungeon to be more accessible to the audience. The difficulty of Maw was, and to an extent, is of concern to the general playerbase.

As far as i understand HoF is easier, but that's for the top guilds. As it should be in the case of the content that serves as as one of the key selling points of Morrowind.

Saturn wrote: »

And as such I don't agree with your assesment that the game has become more complex and difficult, because of the sustain changes. To achieve a more difficult and complex game they would have to perform a major change to the entire game and its systems, but as they has been left in the same state, the rule that DPS beats Mechanics will still be true, and as such those with the highest DPS will prevail.

Which yet again shows that the changes still leave the whole game accessible to the playerbase, which leaves us with flavour-ish things like number of combat factors and slight gearing choices variation.

Saturn wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are a regression of skillful play, as they require a lot less to be possible than the current endgame builds. ESO on live right now has a fairly horizontal progression model, where gear does matter, but not as much as a good rotation and usage of skills, meaning that a player with the best-in-slot gear who is not able to fully utilise it will be easily beaten in DPS by someone who has a better rotation and build. With the changes forcing people into heavy attack builds, as they are the best in terms of overall DPS (as noted by several skilful players on this very forum), we are seeing a shift towards more vertical progression, as the skill required to pull off these builds are significantly less than what the top builds on Live demand, meaning gear will become more important for high dps than is currently the case. If the barrier for entry is lowered too much and anyone can simply waltz in while wearing the best gear and beat any given content, then ESO will no longer be indistinguishable from an MMO like WoW.

This is understandable, but is based on a wrong premise and thus irrelevant. The new system doesn't force anybody into HA builds. This opinion resulted from confusion of players with the changes and ZOS way of articulating those.

As it have been shown by myself and other people 'heavy attacks' builds are not necessary at all. Instead they became a valuable option for people that would like to use them. Apparently the new system allows to adjust the dependence on heavy attacks as means of sustain in a wide range from maximum dependence (heavy attack specific builds) to zero dependence, while each of the options provides similar level of dps.

This above is that build variety and additional complexity that was introduced by the changes.

It so happened that many people hopped on the bandwagon of bashing zos before even performing basic tests.

Saturn wrote: »

I think it will definitely be interesting to see where ESO goes from here, and while I'm obviously dismayed at this nonsensical change I will stick around and see how people adapt to it or if the game falters. It is very likely that if there is no skill progression to be had that the endgame community will turn into a swing-door, as some predict, mirroring MMOs with vertical progression that has its members replaced every content cycle.

And this is an example where confusion can lead people:D

@Dorrino

This new heavy attack meta and post sustain-nerf game is gonna suck. You can call my opinion 'wrong' all you like, I dont wanna spend anymore money on this game.

And while it might not be -necessary-, it'll be widespread. Sorry, but this game was built around the earlier sustain changes. People were attracted for it. You can -vilify- it, but that does not change the fact it was popular. I came to this game for fast paced combat. Their slowing it down. I'm leaving. That's all there is to it.

You can play yes man all you like, but the majority are not on board. ZOS -will- lose buisness for this, and it has been shown that lost buisness is the only avenue of communication we have left. So we're gonna use it.

We're not confused. We just disagree with you.

Saturn

@Dorrino

In your reply you are stating your opinion as fact. And a lot of what you are writing is contradictory.

You say that you can still get great dps, and then link your own post about what you can sustain, which I have seen outdone by quite a lot in other posts that focus on heavy attacks. You even say that for the highest dps setup you had to do a heavy attack every 8s, which is a lot, compared to having to do none on live. It's taking the pace of combat and slowing it way down. Nevermind the fact that most people probably still don't want you in a group, because A: you are a nightblade without group synergy and B: you're stam. So while it's a good attempt to prove your point, it's not good enough, when any magicka toon with a lightning stick will beat you, because they can do it better, easier and with dying less.

You can wrap up the Morrowind dlc in whatever package you like, and spin the sustain changes however you see fit, whether negatively or positively. All I know is that from my point of view, and that of the people I play with and look up to, this is a watered-down version of ESO they are trying to sell us. The sustain changes might be addressing issues that are long-standing, but I don't know anyone who asked for them, and other than you and a few people here-and-there on the forum, I don't see many endgame PvEers that have tested the changes who are too keen on what's coming over the horizon.

I did my tests on the pts, and I was not happy with the changes. I think they're killing the enjoyment that I derive from the game and taking a lot of skill out of the combat. Simple as that.

MassTerror23

Arrchangell wrote: »

I'll just stop hoping they will fix nb this update, it's clear they aren't gonna do anything for them right now.

If you guys didn't know these are add on to pts 3.0.0 so everything to dks still stand.

waitwhat

MassTerror23 wrote: »

Arrchangell wrote: »

I'll just stop hoping they will fix nb this update, it's clear they aren't gonna do anything for them right now.

If you guys didn't know these are add on to pts 3.0.0 so everything to dks still stand.

We know. Nightblades are still the worst off.

Dorrino

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@Dorrino

This new heavy attack meta and post sustain-nerf game is gonna suck. You can call my opinion 'wrong' all you like, I dont wanna spend anymore money on this game.

@Doctordarkspawn

While spending money on the game or not is purely your personal choice, the thing is there's no 'heavy attack meta'.

Instead at least with stamblade rotation and best gear available on pts there's no difference in dps if you run all 3 wpd glyphs and make 25 heavies in 3.5min or you run 3 sustain glyphs and do zero heavy attacks. I rerun all tests. Exact same dps.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And while it might not be -necessary-, it'll be widespread. Sorry, but this game was built around the earlier sustain changes. People were attracted for it. You can -vilify- it, but that does not change the fact it was popular. I came to this game for fast paced combat. Their slowing it down. I'm leaving. That's all there is to it.

Good luck. But from what i see now your major stated reason to leave is based purely on misinformation.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

We're not confused. We just disagree with you.

Then disagree with numbers. Disagree with something substantial. Make a point.

Saturn wrote: »

@Dorrino

In your reply you are stating your opinion as fact. And a lot of what you are writing is contradictory.

@Saturn

That's what my and other people's tests show. I don't state things because i like them. I state things because that's how the game works. Empirically.

Saturn wrote: »

You say that you can still get great dps, and then link your own post about what you can sustain, which I have seen outdone by quite a lot in other posts that focus on heavy attacks

I'm a newbie, your average trials player. I don't perform the best rotations and i don't get the best dps.

What i show here is that with my noobish skills it doesn't matter if i go more or less heavies. The dps is the same.

Saturn wrote: »

. You even say that for the highest dps setup you had to do a heavy attack every 8s, which is a lot, compared to having to do none on live. It's taking the pace of combat and slowing it way down.

As i said above i rerun the test. Exactly same dps. 25 heavies and full wpd or zero heavies and full sustain.

Saturn wrote: »

Nevermind the fact that most people probably still don't want you in a group, because A: you are a nightblade without group synergy and B: you're stam.

This is irrelevant to the point is question (which was Awful Heavy Attack Meta (AHAM)).

Classes get nerfed and buffed. This is normal for an mmo.

Saturn wrote: »

So while it's a good attempt to prove your point, it's not good enough, when any magicka toon with a lightning stick will beat you, because they can do it better, easier and with dying less.

That's fine. See above.

Saturn wrote: »

You can wrap up the Morrowind dlc in whatever package you like, and spin the sustain changes however you see fit, whether negatively or positively. All I know is that from my point of view, and that of the people I play with and look up to, this is a watered-down version of ESO they are trying to sell us.

That is purely up to you.

Saturn wrote: »

The sustain changes might be addressing issues that are long-standing, but I don't know anyone who asked for them, and other than you and a few people here-and-there on the forum, I don't see many endgame PvEers that have tested the changes who are too keen on what's coming over the horizon.

I love these changes. I my mind they make the game more complex, more varied and more fun. It's fine to have a different opinion. Nobody has to play the game he doesn't like.

No mmos can suit everybody. Devs best efforts are usually to make something entertaining enough for as many people as possible to stay. But, and all mmos show it, devs cannot just follow the whims of the community. Not only because community is for the major part irrational and not only because the community doesn't see the big picture.

The major reason why is that the game where everything is fun and pleasant don't have good retaining power.

Make mael weapons easily obtainable - people will get them and move on. Make monster set drop only in great traits - people will get them and move on. Make combat system easy - people will get a grasp of it, finish content and move on.

When everything is easy to get and to master - people will have fun and move on.

And mmos can't sustain like that. That's a genre-defining feature. Some people make an environment filled with hard-to-get carrots and some other people pay to have a chance to get them. Meanwhile carrots themselves have zero intrinsic value. This is all about the process of getting them.

If you make carrots too easy to get people will blame you for the lack of carrots. If you make them too hard - people will blame you for the lack of obtainable carrots:) That's the whole thing why we need balance. So the carrots can be juuust outside of the reach.

Saturn wrote: »

I did my tests on the pts, and I was not happy with the changes. I think they're killing the enjoyment that I derive from the game and taking a lot of skill out of the combat. Simple as that.

And you have the right to despise them. I'll be the last guy to try to intervene.

SirSocke

A stamblade can sustain without heavy? With only cost reduction glyphs? Sorry, you have to have a really bad rotation. Even on live it requires a great uptime of siphoning attacks and a nearly perfect weaving to sustain on a stamblade.
My tests show a completely different result. Without heavies there is no sustain.

Dorrino

SirSocke wrote: »

A stamblade can sustain without heavy? With only cost reduction glyphs? Sorry, you have to have a really bad rotation. Even on live it requires a great uptime of siphoning attacks and a nearly perfect weaving to sustain on a stamblade.
My tests show a completely different result. Without heavies there is no sustain.

Check my post with Combat Metrics for different glyphs setups.

The only one that's missing is 3 sustain glyphs (1 reduction, 2 recovery). 30500dps. Zero heavies.

Athrys5

So much QQ all over ESO community for those changes because they can't use their oneshot toys and run around with heavy like demi-gods. The funniest part are stamblades and stam dk qqing. Btw Great changes, keep going.

BohnT

Aldenn wrote: »

So much QQ all over ESO community for those changes because they can't use their oneshot toys and run around with heavy like demi-gods. The funniest part are stamblades and stam dk qqing. Btw Great changes, keep going.

Mag or Stam sorc?
Stamina has a reason to cry, their damage is still far behind any mag build and we won't start about survivability

Athrys5

BohnT wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

So much QQ all over ESO community for those changes because they can't use their oneshot toys and run around with heavy like demi-gods. The funniest part are stamblades and stam dk qqing. Btw Great changes, keep going.

Mag or Stam sorc?
Stamina has a reason to cry, their damage is still far behind any mag build and we won't start about survivability

Stam dk, stam blade and magicka sorcerer. I play almost always stam dk but i know it needed and nerf and i knew this moment was coming. Fair changes no doubt about that

sadownik

@Dorrino 30 k dps...

Luis_Razuc

BSW seems to have been nerfed too much. Averaging out to 350 spell damage if it's up as soon as it is off Cooldown. With proc chance taken into consideration would be 320-350 for a full flame build, and a 280-320 for a build that attacks the target with 2-3 sources of flame damage per second,

CD for the set should be lowered a bit so it's closer to other available options (comparing to sun set for example)
10% proc chance, 475-480 Spell Damage, 8sec duration with 8sec CD would make it so that using a flame damage focused build would take ~1.4-2seconds after the cooldown drops for the set to activate again averaging the spell damage gained from the set to 400 spell damage for a full flame build, and about 320-340 With blockade, weaves, burning and a spam attack (force pulse and whip). Would be a bit higher for a Templar using Reflective Light/Vampire's Bane

Can increase the cooldown to 10sec, but would want the set to have a higher proc chance and or spell damage (depending on proc chance), so it would average out at least to the 400 spell damage for full flame builds. The higher proc chance would lower the gap between flame builds and other builds that have less flame, which based on the comment in the patch notes, is not what you want. Increasing spell damage would also increase the burst from this set for PvP fights, which seems like it might have been another reason for the nerf. (~590-600 spell damage would be required if the proc chance stayed at 10%)

With the way this set is now, I would not want to use this set even in a full flame build

Edit:changed suggested stats, because Even 10% seems to proc more often than anticipated +Did lots of tests to get more exact numbers on those changes

Draqone

Luis_Razuc wrote: »

With the way this set is now, I would not want to use this set even in a full flame build

nevermind, I just learnt that Sun buffs fire staff light and heavy attacks.

Nelson_Rebel

seriously guys just check out ashes of creation

Weps

Draqone wrote: »

Luis_Razuc wrote: »

With the way this set is now, I would not want to use this set even in a full flame build

What you fail to notice is that BSW buffs your light and heavy attacks as well, whereas Sun buffs only your abilities. Now that HA and LA will play a larger role in combat, you'll need to stack a lot of flat Spell/Weapon Damage.

Also Sun won't affect your healing, and you really need that since Major Mending is gone for good for almost everyone.

Dorrino

sadownik wrote: »

@Dorrino 30 k dps...

That's what i get in the setup described in the post.

The point is not that i do the best dps. The point is that i getthe same dps in full dps HA setup and in full sustain zero-HA setup.

Saturn

Dorrino wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@Dorrino

This new heavy attack meta and post sustain-nerf game is gonna suck. You can call my opinion 'wrong' all you like, I dont wanna spend anymore money on this game.

@Doctordarkspawn

While spending money on the game or not is purely your personal choice, the thing is there's no 'heavy attack meta'.

Instead at least with stamblade rotation and best gear available on pts there's no difference in dps if you run all 3 wpd glyphs and make 25 heavies in 3.5min or you run 3 sustain glyphs and do zero heavy attacks. I rerun all tests. Exact same dps.

I think if you want to prove your point you should try to accomplish the same on something that is not a nightblade. The video you linked with Alcast was also a nightblade video, and from the tests I've done (on dummy and in the new trial) it's quite obvious that nightblade suffers the least, since siphoning strikes (while obviously nerfed into the ground) is still quite good in comparison to what other classes have.

Dragonknights, sorcerers and templars are pretty screwed, but I would like to see you show me an example of how you, with those classes, are able to achieve DPS that would compel people to bring you into a group (since DPS will still be an important factor after Morrowind launches, despite the sustain changes, as the core systems in place are still the same, i.e. DPS > Everything else), without heavy attacking.

The reason why everyone is saying it is going to be "heavy attack meta" is because that is what the majority of people have found to be the most successful in their DPS setups. The people who have beaten the new trial have also said they run builds like that, people who have already done a lot of theorycrafting an testing.

A lot of us who are challenging your opinion, do so because, while we do want what you say to be true, we know that it is not the case. We know that most of the builds we currently employ on Live will be reduced to ashes come Morrowind, and we know that the easiest adaptation to solve the sustain problems will be through heavy attack builds, further enforced by the removal of the cost reduction CP and the clear choice of now being able to slot a lot of points into Tenacity.

Dorrino

Saturn wrote: »

@Saturn
I think if you want to prove your point you should try to accomplish the same on something that is not a nightblade.

Will a mag sorc do?

Saturn wrote: »

since siphoning strikes (while obviously nerfed into the ground) is still quite good in comparison to what other classes have.

This point really needs to be justified. All classes have their means of resource sustain.

Saturn wrote: »

Dragonknights, sorcerers and templars are pretty screwed, but I would like to see you show me an example of how you, with those classes, are able to achieve DPS that would compel people to bring you into a group (since DPS will still be an important factor after Morrowind launches, despite the sustain changes, as the core systems in place are still the same, i.e. DPS > Everything else), without heavy attacking.

On it.

Saturn wrote: »

The reason why everyone is saying it is going to be "heavy attack meta" is because that is what the majority of people have found to be the most successful in their DPS setups.

And they did so only because they used exactly same builds they used on live. People took the same builds, added heavy attacks, found that it works great and called it 'the only way possible'.

That's the thing. People changed nothing in the builds. And quite obviously they have worse sustain.

The question is - how could anybody expect it to be different?

You use no sustain builds - you need heavy attacks. That's all this change is about.

Saturn wrote: »

The people who have beaten the new trial have also said they run builds like that, people who have already done a lot of theorycrafting an testing.

Then they didn't share their theorycrafting. Most if not all of it can be described as 'how do i incorporate heavy attacks to my rotation without changing the build?'. How can you expect any new variety in the builds if people straight up refuse to change the builds?

Saturn wrote: »

A lot of us who are challenging your opinion, do so because, while we do want what you say to be true, we know that it is not the case.

Then there should be no problem for you to provide the numbers supporting this, right?

Saturn wrote: »

We know that most of the builds we currently employ on Live will be reduced to ashes come Morrowind

This contradicts your previous statement. People completed HoF using exact same builds they use on live. Thus they are still BIS or very close to it.

Saturn wrote: »

, and we know that the easiest adaptation to solve the sustain problems will be through heavy attack builds, further enforced by the removal of the cost reduction CP and the clear choice of now being able to slot a lot of points into Tenacity.

"Easy' as in 'no-brainer'? Sure. "Easy' as in 'easy to perform'? Not at all. Since now you need to care about your resources and find the best tradeoff between heavies and lights. Additionally heavies are channels, so you need to be resourceful to find the proper moment to pull one off.

If anything the rotations in zero sustain gear became harder.

But, as i showed on a stamnb and since you ask, i'll do so on a mag sorc - you can simplify your rotation to an arbitrary degree in terms on heavies as the expense of slightly lower dps. Since simpler rotations are more reliable in a real trials fight you can expect this dps difference to be non-existent in prolonged fights.

Luis_Razuc

@Draqone you either never tested, or didn't actually read the part you quoted, but Sun does affect your Light Attack and Heavy Attack "in a full flame build". Which means flame staves on front and back bar. Flame staff is affected by Sun's 5p set bonus

Draqone

Luis_Razuc wrote: »

@Draqone you either never tested, or didn't actually read the part you quoted, but Sun does affect your Light Attack and Heavy Attack "in a full flame build". Which means flame staves on front and back bar. Flame staff is affected by Sun's 5p set bonus

WOW, I can't believe I didn't know that! Thank you for correcting me, i'll remove my post.

Ectheliontnacil

Please revert the changes to siphoning attacks, it is the only thing nightblades (especially magicka nightblades) have going for them at the moment. The heal isn't a bad idea actually, but we need one sustain morph. If you just changed leeching strikes to a heal skill that might be nice .