Crystal Frag Nerf Not Enough

djdc1234 · May 2017

Shadzilla wrote: »

Currently in PVE trials right now, mag sorcs are literally the best possible dps option. They are pulling 55k+ on single target trials bosses, with insanely strong cleave/aoe damage. FROM RANGE... WITH SHIELDS. If you think a 10% nerf to a single ability will bring them down very much, you are incorrect. The best stam players in the world struggle to try and breach 50k single target, with horrible cleave and about 70% of the aoe that mag toons pull, IN MELEE WITHOUT SHIELDS. ZOS if you do not nerf sorcs more, along with magicka dps toons in general, stamina will continue to be non existent in competitive end game trials. A simple change in caltrops is not changing enough.

This is downright hilarious. I see a massive amount of replies saying stop the nerfs and buff the other 3 classes to sorcs level. Take a minute and think, thats not going to happen... Zos has spent how much time/resources nerfing the other 3 classes? While mag sorcs remain untouched and have been clearly over performing since the 1 Tamriel patch. If you are DPSing any trial, or PVE content, if you are not running a mag sorc you are handicapping yourself. Its as simple as that. Zos wants nerfs, I want balance. I do not wanna see 6-8 mag sorcs needed for top tier competitive trial scores, with maybe a couple mag dks for chains. I would like to see relatively equal top DPS capabilities for all 5 classes, MAGICKA AND STAMINA... Is that going to happen? No, not with the current dev team we have. I can still make forum posts and QQ about it though, and hope one day it might happen.

who the F*** pulls 55+k lol the people who are all gold..

Shadzilla · May 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Just want to correct you a little bit, magdks are pulling more single target DPS than magsorcs.

If you can kindly link me a parse where a mag dk is pulling over 56k single target on a vet trial boss... I will gladly correct my post. Until then I will continue to observe 6+ mag sorcs dpsing end game competitve trials. Smiley face with tongue out while winking.

FYI mag dks should pull higher, considering they are forced melee while sorcs can go ranged easily. This just simply is not the case. Reroll ur dk to sorc.

Shadzilla · May 2017

djdc1234 wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Currently in PVE trials right now, mag sorcs are literally the best possible dps option. They are pulling 55k+ on single target trials bosses, with insanely strong cleave/aoe damage. FROM RANGE... WITH SHIELDS. If you think a 10% nerf to a single ability will bring them down very much, you are incorrect. The best stam players in the world struggle to try and breach 50k single target, with horrible cleave and about 70% of the aoe that mag toons pull, IN MELEE WITHOUT SHIELDS. ZOS if you do not nerf sorcs more, along with magicka dps toons in general, stamina will continue to be non existent in competitive end game trials. A simple change in caltrops is not changing enough.

This is downright hilarious. I see a massive amount of replies saying stop the nerfs and buff the other 3 classes to sorcs level. Take a minute and think, thats not going to happen... Zos has spent how much time/resources nerfing the other 3 classes? While mag sorcs remain untouched and have been clearly over performing since the 1 Tamriel patch. If you are DPSing any trial, or PVE content, if you are not running a mag sorc you are handicapping yourself. Its as simple as that. Zos wants nerfs, I want balance. I do not wanna see 6-8 mag sorcs needed for top tier competitive trial scores, with maybe a couple mag dks for chains. I would like to see relatively equal top DPS capabilities for all 5 classes, MAGICKA AND STAMINA... Is that going to happen? No, not with the current dev team we have. I can still make forum posts and QQ about it though, and hope one day it might happen.

who the F*** pulls 55+k lol the people who are all gold..

Takes a bit more than gold gear, but yea...

Shadzilla · May 2017

central_scrutinizer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Wow.. All this nerf hatred. Do you guys ever stop and think? If you made a line out of 100 peas, and one was out of position, would you move the other 99 up to line up with the wrong one?

Then you realise that they are all too close to the edge of the table and so have to build an extension to it..

Its a good job coding is a lot simpler than moving peas, and there's a lot less that can go wrong.. And then cos everything has been buffed, content is too easy so you gotta buff all the mobs too (widen the table).

Or, you could always just move one pea down a little instead.

The issue with sorcs being so far ahead is barely even grazed by this nerf that does nothing to address the actual main sources of sorc dps/burst combined with the mechanics that allow them to be delivered from safety not available to most other dps...in your scenario it's akin to taking the peas, crushing them up and freebasing them and then hanging out nude at the loading dock in hopes of catching the mailman conducting espionage on behalf of his home planet.

This my friend, is a downright hilarious yet accurate response. It made me laugh quite loudly, and for this I give you kudos.

KingJ · May 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Just want to correct you a little bit, magdks are pulling more single target DPS than magsorcs.

While yes Magdk pull higher single target several downsides and a reason groups only use 1 magdk. Magdk have to fight in melee range while sorcs are range, range is safer. Than we have magdk can pull higher single target which is nice sorc are second, Sorc have the Advantage of have vastly higher AOE/cleave damage. Majority of Bosses have adds which makes cleave damage very important.

Single target important but with every boss having adds cleave is just as important.That's why groups run 6 magsorc 2 magdk.

Shadzilla · May 2017

KingJ wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Just want to correct you a little bit, magdks are pulling more single target DPS than magsorcs.

While yes Magdk pull higher single target several downsides and a reason groups only use 1 magdk. Magdk have to fight in melee range while sorcs are range, range is safer. Than we have magdk can pull higher single target which is nice sorc are second, Sorc have the Advantage of have vastly higher AOE/cleave damage. Majority of Bosses have adds which makes cleave damage very important.

Single target important but with every boss having adds cleave is just as important.That's why groups run 6 magsorc 2 magdk.

Show me a mag dk parse doing more than 56k single target on a vet trial boss, I have never seen one. Mag sorcs can pull that single target from range...

lustdog · May 2017

all damage shield should scale with health, so they should think twice to get more high dps or a bit survive....

ofSunhold · May 2017

@zaria wrote: »

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

I can't wait til the patch goes live and all these pro-nerfers cry about how they're running out of resources in trials and vet pledges and then complain about that too like threads like this didn't happen.

This one want to force them to do random veteran dungeons in June

In PUGs. Yes.

Nelson_Rebel · May 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Just want to correct you a little bit, magdks are pulling more single target DPS than magsorcs.

On a dps dummy sure, try seeing that in a trial. Mag sorcs will always be number one with current mechanics in place. Mag dk can only get that if they are 100% up close 100% of the time.

Sorcs do not require that. Sorcs>Dk's by quite a margin just because of mechanics

ObsidianMichi · May 2017

Sinkas wrote: »

Ohh no! Sorc got nerfed for the first time . GOOD. Nerf them more.

Ahahahahahahahhaahah... ahahahahhahahahhahahaha.... hahahahahahhahahaha... haaa

Oh, wait. You're serious? Let me laugh harder.

We found the newbie, guys.

zaria · May 2017

ofSunhold wrote: »

@zaria wrote: »

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

I can't wait til the patch goes live and all these pro-nerfers cry about how they're running out of resources in trials and vet pledges and then complain about that too like threads like this didn't happen.

This one want to force them to do random veteran dungeons in June

In PUGs. Yes.

Yes forgot the PUG part

It will be an total chaos

Biro123 · May 2017

Shadzilla wrote: »

central_scrutinizer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Wow.. All this nerf hatred. Do you guys ever stop and think? If you made a line out of 100 peas, and one was out of position, would you move the other 99 up to line up with the wrong one?

Then you realise that they are all too close to the edge of the table and so have to build an extension to it..

Its a good job coding is a lot simpler than moving peas, and there's a lot less that can go wrong.. And then cos everything has been buffed, content is too easy so you gotta buff all the mobs too (widen the table).

Or, you could always just move one pea down a little instead.

The issue with sorcs being so far ahead is barely even grazed by this nerf that does nothing to address the actual main sources of sorc dps/burst combined with the mechanics that allow them to be delivered from safety not available to most other dps...in your scenario it's akin to taking the peas, crushing them up and freebasing them and then hanging out nude at the loading dock in hopes of catching the mailman conducting espionage on behalf of his home planet.

This my friend, is a downright hilarious yet accurate response. It made me laugh quite loudly, and for this I give you kudos.

You guys are funny. I come up with an analogy to show why needing one thing nerfing is better than buffing everything else and you're responses are 'you're wrong cos sorcs op'.

The level of stupid here is beyond anything I can communicate with.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · May 2017

And we have another player complaining about another player's ability. Stop with the nerf threads. The game is about to have the largest nerf ever in a few weeks. Once that happens then what will you nerfer's do?

Trinity_Is_My_Name · May 2017

My main toon is a Mag Sorc and I've been playing it for 2 years with thousands of hours on it. Can I hit 55K Single Target? LOLOLOLOLOL! NO! I'm lucky if I even hit 30K for a few seconds. These players in Trials are using end game Trial gear and Maelstrom weapons with hundreds of hours of practice to achieve their DPS and....they are doing it while being buffed by multiple support toons in Trials. If you think it is easy to achieve single target DPS of 55K I suggest you try it on a test dummy. Make a Mag Sorc if you need to and see for yourself. A friend of mine mains a Mag Sorc in Trials and he is only able to reach 38K DPS on a test dummy every once in a while. His single target DPS is usually around 35K.

So stop with the nerf threads. The game is going to **** because of all the people calling for nerfs continuously!

BohnT · May 2017

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

My main toon is a Mag Sorc and I've been playing it for 2 years with thousands of hours on it. Can I hit 55K Single Target? LOLOLOLOLOL! NO! I'm lucky if I even hit 30K for a few seconds. These players in Trials are using end game Trial gear and Maelstrom weapons with hundreds of hours of practice to achieve their DPS and....they are doing it while being buffed by multiple support toons in Trials. If you think it is easy to achieve single target DPS of 55K I suggest you try it on a test dummy. Make a Mag Sorc if you need to and see for yourself. A friend of mine mains a Mag Sorc in Trials and he is only able to reach 38K DPS on a test dummy every once in a while. His single target DPS is usually around 35K.

So stop with the nerf threads. The game is going to **** because of all the people calling for nerfs continuously!

You know why you use the top players to compare classes? Because all of them have perfectly executed rotations and are at roughly the same skill level.
If you compare some mediocre players you can't say which class is better because they mess up the rotation from time to time so you can't measure things like like dps precisely.
You'd have to take certain variables into your comparison like: how many light attacks did he miss, how often did he fail to have the perfect rotation, does the gear in purple has the same effects for both classes or are the bonuses for one class better in purple gear (percentage based)

You don't have to worry about these things if you compare the 1% best players and that's why people mention these 55k+ dps parses

Hammy01 · May 2017

My SO plays a magsorc and she is going to be sooo pissed if they nerf her favorite class. This is her very first MMO so she does not fully understand that in every MMO if enough people complain about a class it will get nerfed. Most DEVs will nerf in small increments to bring that class inline with others..... However ZOS swings a large nerf hammer that is uncapable of tiny nerfs. I can only hope that if nerfs are coming to the magsorc that they also give some small buff... (ie - nerf the damage of C-frags but change it to insta cast time and change the proc chance to a snare or a life steal... meaning you have a 20% chance to snare your opponent or 20% chance to steal X-amount of health).

grim_tactics · May 2017

TL:DR

To OP

Sorcs should be the highest DPS period.

Any class that can be killed as fast as a Sorc should also be the highest DPS.

I know all the hate comes mostly from NBs so I'll say this: you chose a rogue character which relies on stealth and cunning. So play smarter or just get better with your character and stop blaming a class.

Want max DPS? Play a Sorc. If you're not willing to do so then just get better with your character and stop all the complaining about an element that's been in the game since day 1.

MehrunesFlagon · May 2017

grim_tactics wrote: »

TL:DR

To OP

Sorcs should be the highest DPS period.

Any class that can be killed as fast as a Sorc should also be the highest DPS.

I know all the hate comes mostly from NBs so I'll say this: you chose a rogue character which relies on stealth and cunning. So play smarter or just get better with your character and stop blaming a class.

Want max DPS? Play a Sorc. If you're not willing to do so then just get better with your character and stop all the complaining about an element that's been in the game since day 1.

Couldn't agree more even though I do enjoy playing mdk.

Nelson_Rebel · May 2017

grim_tactics wrote: »

TL:DR

To OP

Sorcs should be the highest DPS period.

Any class that can be killed as fast as a Sorc should also be the highest DPS.

I know all the hate comes mostly from NBs so I'll say this: you chose a rogue character which relies on stealth and cunning. So play smarter or just get better with your character and stop blaming a class.

Want max DPS? Play a Sorc. If you're not willing to do so then just get better with your character and stop all the complaining about an element that's been in the game since day 1.

This comment... I can't even imagine being this ignorant..

You're clearly so blinded by the mag sorc meta. lmao

First off sorcerers have the best survivability in shields!

Secondly...

NO ONE CLASS SHOULD BE THE ONLY VIABLE CLASS. That was the whole point of introducing the warden to diversify the tank and healer slots. And you think sorcs should get a pass to be the only choice because?...I said so? You are absolutely *** hilarious to read.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2017

lustdog wrote: »

all damage shield should scale with health, so they should think twice to get more high dps or a bit survive....

This just takes us back to 1.5, where everyone stacked health. This simply makes tanks tankier.

You shield to supplement lower health. If mitigation were set up like it should be, physical resist higher on Heavy/Medium, but with the opposing effect on spell resist, then you'd have an argument.

As it stands, HA and MA don't have to contend with the downside of LA, thus the necessity of shields for most LA users.

BohnT wrote: »

You know why you use the top players to compare classes? Because all of them have perfectly executed rotations and are at roughly the same skill level.
If you compare some mediocre players you can't say which class is better because they mess up the rotation from time to time so you can't measure things like like dps precisely.
You'd have to take certain variables into your comparison like: how many light attacks did he miss, how often did he fail to have the perfect rotation, does the gear in purple has the same effects for both classes or are the bonuses for one class better in purple gear (percentage based)

You don't have to worry about these things if you compare the 1% best players and that's why people mention these 55k+ dps parses

No, you compare these things by simulating perfect rotations on that million dollar server you have access to as a ZoS developer. You take the human factor completely out of it and from there you know "This is the best # that can ever be achieved." From there, you dial things back, you look at real world average timing and damage/survivability/sustain potential, and you adjust again.

Using the top 1% to set the standard of comparison does not help the majority, as most will not have BiS golded gear, maelstrom weapons, and superb buff uptime from their group members.

Comparing a Ferrari to a Dodge Charger, you're going to see the Ferrari have much higher performance. You don't subsequently cut the acceleration of both in half and expect there not to still be a difference between the two. You also need to factor in how many Ferrari's are out there vs how many Chargers vs how many average/typical cars.

There was not nearly as much ceiling vs floor discrepancy when soft-caps offered truly diminishing returns. It didn't eliminate the difference, but it was significantly lower than it is now, on all classes.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

grim_tactics wrote: »

TL:DR

To OP

Sorcs should be the highest DPS period.

Any class that can be killed as fast as a Sorc should also be the highest DPS.

I know all the hate comes mostly from NBs so I'll say this: you chose a rogue character which relies on stealth and cunning. So play smarter or just get better with your character and stop blaming a class.

Want max DPS? Play a Sorc. If you're not willing to do so then just get better with your character and stop all the complaining about an element that's been in the game since day 1.

This comment... I can't even imagine being this ignorant..

You're clearly so blinded by the mag sorc meta. lmao

First off sorcerers have the best survivability in shields!

Secondly...

NO ONE CLASS SHOULD BE THE ONLY VIABLE CLASS. That was the whole point of introducing the warden to diversify the tank and healer slots. And you think sorcs should get a pass to be the only choice because?...I said so? You are absolutely *** hilarious to read.

You clearly have your own bias going on. Each class has benefits and downsides.

If sorc's had the best of everything, as is often claimed, they'd be the only ones on the leaderboards (PvE and PvP) and the only ones performing all roles. Obviously this is not the case.

Do things need to be adjusted? Yes. Is any skillfully played class going to be strong and survivable? Yes.

No one class should be viable, agreed, but the average Sorc is also not the be-all end-all that many are trying to make them out to be.

Things are being based on a handful of builds and a handful of skills, in the hands of high end, very skilled players and then calling that the standard, which it's not.

Morbash · May 2017

BUFF SORCS

Dantaria · May 2017

Shadzilla wrote: »

If you can kindly link me a parse where a mag dk is pulling over 56k single target on a vet trial boss... I will gladly correct my post. Until then I will continue to observe 6+ mag sorcs dpsing end game competitve trials. Smiley face with tongue out while winking.

FYI mag dks should pull higher, considering they are forced melee while sorcs can go ranged easily. This just simply is not the case. Reroll ur dk to sorc.

Really? Really?! This again?!

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR3XR4qsNhA

mDK: 60.7k Total DPS, 49.3K Single Target DPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oasQBA65JHE

mSorc: 64.5k Total DPS, 44.8k Single Target DPS

Only - only - when pets come into picture magsorc can be better then magDK single-target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUMzwGC8kM8

And pets have their issues. Last vAA boss, Twins in vMoL, Warrior - running pets there is risky. Often petsorcs switch to BSW-setup on these battles. And get outclassed by magDK

Mrs_Malaka · May 2017

Nerf is in the eye of the beholder.

Violynne · May 2017

DHale wrote: »

No one uses shields in trials that's a good way for you to be moved from the a team to the c team. But I do use harness magic on my Templar

Then by all logic, your Templar is C Team.

Must suck.

LadyLavina · May 2017

Edit: Deleted b/c the bias here is clear and not worth the argument.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2017

Maybe its time for an invisible carry multiplier for PVE? Whatever player has the highest dps sets the multiplier for the remainder of the dps in the raid, so let's say magicka sorc is fashionable, and the top magicka sorc in a trial is doing 40k dps, after 5 seconds of fighting multipliers are assigned down the trials group x sta templar is doing 30k so they gets a 33% buff to his damage as long as the top dps holds his 5 second average at 40k. x sta nightblade is doing 25k dps so they get a 62% buff to their damage, x magicka dk is doing 35k so they only get a 12.5% damage bonus. Now suddenly PVE is balanced, and no more tears of "my class sucks, nerf x so i can has good feels!".

I mean it's a little rough and maybe there should be a gear score calculation so people don't come in naked with white destro staffs that do 40k light attacks every second but its a foundation for participation inspiration.

DjMuscleboy02 · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

No one uses shields in trials that's a good way for you to be moved from the a team to the c team. But I do use harness magic on my Templar

I'm a Drom'Athra Destroyer and (though it sounds cocky) a fantastic DPS amongst the best on my server.

I always slot a shield. Harness Magicka is great, but I slot Empowered Ward to buff my group when it's up. If no shield is slotted I use Boundless Storm for the good DPS+defense but only sometimes.

All (99.99999%) Magicka-based DPS should have a shield slotted. Period.

He meant 1h+shield haha

Nelson_Rebel · May 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

lustdog wrote: »

all damage shield should scale with health, so they should think twice to get more high dps or a bit survive....

This just takes us back to 1.5, where everyone stacked health. This simply makes tanks tankier.

You shield to supplement lower health. If mitigation were set up like it should be, physical resist higher on Heavy/Medium, but with the opposing effect on spell resist, then you'd have an argument.

As it stands, HA and MA don't have to contend with the downside of LA, thus the necessity of shields for most LA users.

BohnT wrote: »

You know why you use the top players to compare classes? Because all of them have perfectly executed rotations and are at roughly the same skill level.
If you compare some mediocre players you can't say which class is better because they mess up the rotation from time to time so you can't measure things like like dps precisely.
You'd have to take certain variables into your comparison like: how many light attacks did he miss, how often did he fail to have the perfect rotation, does the gear in purple has the same effects for both classes or are the bonuses for one class better in purple gear (percentage based)

You don't have to worry about these things if you compare the 1% best players and that's why people mention these 55k+ dps parses

No, you compare these things by simulating perfect rotations on that million dollar server you have access to as a ZoS developer. You take the human factor completely out of it and from there you know "This is the best # that can ever be achieved." From there, you dial things back, you look at real world average timing and damage/survivability/sustain potential, and you adjust again.

Using the top 1% to set the standard of comparison does not help the majority, as most will not have BiS golded gear, maelstrom weapons, and superb buff uptime from their group members.

Comparing a Ferrari to a Dodge Charger, you're going to see the Ferrari have much higher performance. You don't subsequently cut the acceleration of both in half and expect there not to still be a difference between the two. You also need to factor in how many Ferrari's are out there vs how many Chargers vs how many average/typical cars.

There was not nearly as much ceiling vs floor discrepancy when soft-caps offered truly diminishing returns. It didn't eliminate the difference, but it was significantly lower than it is now, on all classes.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

grim_tactics wrote: »

TL:DR

To OP

Sorcs should be the highest DPS period.

Any class that can be killed as fast as a Sorc should also be the highest DPS.

I know all the hate comes mostly from NBs so I'll say this: you chose a rogue character which relies on stealth and cunning. So play smarter or just get better with your character and stop blaming a class.

Want max DPS? Play a Sorc. If you're not willing to do so then just get better with your character and stop all the complaining about an element that's been in the game since day 1.

This comment... I can't even imagine being this ignorant..

You're clearly so blinded by the mag sorc meta. lmao

First off sorcerers have the best survivability in shields!

Secondly...

NO ONE CLASS SHOULD BE THE ONLY VIABLE CLASS. That was the whole point of introducing the warden to diversify the tank and healer slots. And you think sorcs should get a pass to be the only choice because?...I said so? You are absolutely *** hilarious to read.

You clearly have your own bias going on. Each class has benefits and downsides.

If sorc's had the best of everything, as is often claimed, they'd be the only ones on the leaderboards (PvE and PvP) and the only ones performing all roles. Obviously this is not the case.

Do things need to be adjusted? Yes. Is any skillfully played class going to be strong and survivable? Yes.

No one class should be viable, agreed, but the average Sorc is also not the be-all end-all that many are trying to make them out to be.

Things are being based on a handful of builds and a handful of skills, in the hands of high end, very skilled players and then calling that the standard, which it's not.

The bias was against his phrasing of his post, he literally said here

grim_tactics wrote: »

TL:DR

To OP

Sorcs should be the highest DPS period.

Any class that can be killed as fast as a Sorc should also be the highest DPS.

I know all the hate comes mostly from NBs so I'll say this: you chose a rogue character which relies on stealth and cunning. So play smarter or just get better with your character and stop blaming a class.

Want max DPS? Play a Sorc. If you're not willing to do so then just get better with your character and stop all the complaining about an element that's been in the game since day 1.

That sorcerers should be the best? That was what tripped me out. Honestly my issue isn't with sorcs. It's with this mentality

And unfortunately you are wrong in regards to the dominance of sorcs. They are the only acceptable Mag dps besides 1 maybe 2 dk's for chains and engulfing flame.

Not to even mention stamina DPS's plight

Bottom line is, endgame PvE needs serious attention with a serious approach to it

subtlezeroub17_ESO · May 2017

They really need to start including more anti range mechanics as well as increasing the damage of Melee ranged abilities. That's a good start for balancing Melee vs ranged builds.

WoW did it perfectly. Melee builds ALWAYS have the highest potential dps simply because they have the least uptime and more risk.

Prof_Bawbag · May 2017

DHale wrote: »

No one uses shields in trials that's a good way for you to be moved from the a team to the c team. But I do use harness magic on my Templar

That awkward moment when you post something on the forums that you once read in a trash guild chat and attempt to pass it off as wisdom on the forums. Meh, a lot of people do it, just take it on the chin, mate. No one will remember this in a day or 2.