So are hybrid builds viable again?

amasuriel · April 2017

Guys, I don't think you understand. Hybrid is not bad because of sustain, it's bad because of damage. 10k magicka is roughly he same as 1000 spell damage. It's not possible to stack enough stam and magicka to make your skills hit harder than a light tickle, even with decent spell and weapon damage.

Try doing a non hybrid build with only 20 or 25k in the relevant stat, even with BiS gear. Your dps will suck.

Durham · April 2017

No they are not

Alp · April 2017

I wish damage wasn't based on max stamina/magicka. It seems to be a big part of what's stopping it.

TheStealthDude · April 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

Guys, I don't think you understand. Hybrid is not bad because of sustain, it's bad because of damage. 10k magicka is roughly he same as 1000 spell damage. It's not possible to stack enough stam and magicka to make your skills hit harder than a light tickle, even with decent spell and weapon damage.

Try doing a non hybrid build with only 20 or 25k in the relevant stat, even with BiS gear. Your dps will suck.

The difference now is that you can not likely stack for pure damage anymore on a standard build, without suffering a loss in DPS due to lack of sustain.

Because Hybrids don't necessarily need as much sustain, the gap between standard and hybrid classes should be smaller.

UppGRAYxDD · April 2017

Sure if you are talking about a hybrid warden...

rimmidimdim · April 2017

By nerfing siphoning strikes to almost useless, which was the most powerful skill in the game for a hybrid class, I feel like ZOS does not want hybrids.

Lexxypwns · April 2017

There will be workable hybrid builds, centered around a decent sized off-stat pool and sustain in both stats. However, all of the damage still has to come from a relatively high max stat+damage pool from 1 specific source.

DragonBound · April 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

There will be workable hybrid builds, centered around a decent sized off-stat pool and sustain in both stats. However, all of the damage still has to come from a relatively high max stat+damage pool from 1 specific source.

Ok well if that is true then that is not really hybrid a real hybrid should be able to use any ability just as effectively in either stamina or magicka, what your saying is you cannot pick both stam and magicka damage abilities.

DHale · April 2017

They never were viable. At least since pc launch.

Bladerunner1 · April 2017

Alp wrote: »

I wish damage wasn't based on max stamina/magicka. It seems to be a big part of what's stopping it.

Total damage calculation in Heavy Attacks Online could actually rely more on Weapon / Spell damage than what we currently have. Max Magicka and Stamina stats don't contribute much to a heavy attack. The ratio of stats / spell damage is 1/40 when calculating the damage of a heavy attack. Compare that to the 1/10.5 ratio for a skill, and keep in mind we'll be casting skills at a much much slower rate in Vardenfell, though hybrids could probably squeeze in more skills in the same timeframe.

I only bring this up because people who try making a hybrid could stack either weapon damage or spell damage while wearing Pelinals Aptitude in an attempt at being effective.

Minno · April 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

I have an idea for a hybrid build that I am going to try out that I am pretty excited about. Definitely not a min/maxed character but could be pretty viable and very fun for PVP. The CP buffs for hybrids are nice, although I am hoping my build will work in non CP campaigns and BGs too. @NightbladeMechanics mentioned new hybrid friendly sets which I am am curious to see. Is there anywhere to see the new sets btw or is that all covered under the NDA?

Just as important as the buffs to hybrids though is that the nerfs to everyone else make the opportunity costs for making a hybrid lower. Additionally, I think some current hybrid friendly sets and a lot of food/drink options help to make resource management easier than drawing from a single pool. Not saying they are going to be the new meta but they may just become a bit more viable.

The details are under NDA. I haven't actually seen them myself. I'm not logging onto this pts. I don't have much time for testing unfinalized stuff, and I don't want to spoil it for myself.

Well a few of us were looking at the stats. Would using max stats over max dmg be better for the hybrid classes?

Lexxypwns · April 2017

DragonBound wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

There will be workable hybrid builds, centered around a decent sized off-stat pool and sustain in both stats. However, all of the damage still has to come from a relatively high max stat+damage pool from 1 specific source.

Ok well if that is true then that is not really hybrid a real hybrid should be able to use any ability just as effectively in either stamina or magicka, what your saying is you cannot pick both stam and magicka damage abilities.

Well, if you want to be technical, hybrids have been viable for a long long long time now and will continue to be viable.

You realize, BS tanks are hybrids, they cast a magika ability which deals damage based upon their health pool.

The fact is, if you're relying on stam based healing and mobility while pulling your offense from your magika pool that is 100% a hybrid and there will be setups like this that are viable next patch which currently are not viable.

Minno · April 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

There will be workable hybrid builds, centered around a decent sized off-stat pool and sustain in both stats. However, all of the damage still has to come from a relatively high max stat+damage pool from 1 specific source.

Ok well if that is true then that is not really hybrid a real hybrid should be able to use any ability just as effectively in either stamina or magicka, what your saying is you cannot pick both stam and magicka damage abilities.

Well, if you want to be technical, hybrids have been viable for a long long long time now and will continue to be viable.

You realize, BS tanks are hybrids, they cast a magika ability which deals damage based upon their health pool.

The fact is, if you're relying on stam based healing and mobility while pulling your offense from your magika pool that is 100% a hybrid and there will be setups like this that are viable next patch which currently are not viable.

This.

Even live there are a set or two that will allow hybridization of the typical ESO stats (if the intent is to pull utility from one resource while dmg from another) The CP changes on pts will greatly strengthen this intent, specifically for mag builds looking to augment their missing Stam for dmg avoidance.

cheemers · April 2017

This crafted set looks like a very viable alternative to Pelinals:

Shacklebreaker
2 - Weapon Damage
3 - Spell Damage
4 - Magicka Recovery and Stamina Recovery
5 - 2000 Max Magicka and Max Stamina

You could realistically run 5 shacklebreaker, 1 kena (wep and spell dmg), and 5 trainee (3 jewellry, 1 non-training body piece, 1 weapon) quite easily for a balanced and powerful build. Alternatively if you're happy with healthy jewellry you could fit in black rose instead.

cheemers · April 2017

edit: double post

Anti_Virus · April 2017

cheemers wrote: »

This crafted set looks like a very viable alternative to Pelinals:

Shacklebreaker
2 - Weapon Damage
3 - Spell Damage
4 - Magicka Recovery and Stamina Recovery
5 - 2000 Max Magicka and Max Stamina

You could realistically run 5 shacklebreaker, 1 kena (wep and spell dmg), and 5 trainee (3 jewellry, 1 non-training body piece, 1 weapon) quite easily for a balanced and powerful build. Alternatively if you're happy with healthy jewellry you could fit in black rose instead.

Looks interesting.

Tiitus · April 2017

I would say yes to hybrid builds being viable but not in a good way, hybrid builds are only viable because max-stat-build sustain was nerfed to the ground... that said hybrid build were not made better they are still "bad" its just an illusion crated by the nerfs to sustain... this is not the kind of balance that should be promoted.

Do i agree that hybrid builds should be viable, yes absolutely! i think they are fun.. but i also believe that someone who goes max stam or max magicka should better than a jack-of-all-trades build.

Alp · April 2017

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Alp wrote: »

I wish damage wasn't based on max stamina/magicka. It seems to be a big part of what's stopping it.

Total damage calculation in Heavy Attacks Online could actually rely more on Weapon / Spell damage than what we currently have. Max Magicka and Stamina stats don't contribute much to a heavy attack. The ratio of stats / spell damage is 1/40 when calculating the damage of a heavy attack. Compare that to the 1/10.5 ratio for a skill, and keep in mind we'll be casting skills at a much much slower rate in Vardenfell, though hybrids could probably squeeze in more skills in the same timeframe.

I only bring this up because people who try making a hybrid could stack either weapon damage or spell damage while wearing Pelinals Aptitude in an attempt at being effective.

But it still requires you to use a specific set of gear to use it. I'm not sure what other options they could add.

DragonBound · April 2017

Tiitus wrote: »

I would say yes to hybrid builds being viable but not in a good way, hybrid builds are only viable because max-stat-build sustain was nerfed to the ground... that said hybrid build were not made better they are still "bad" its just an illusion crated by the nerfs to sustain... this is not the kind of balance that should be promoted.

Do i agree that hybrid builds should be viable, yes absolutely! i think they are fun.. but i also believe that someone who goes max stam or max magicka should better than a jack-of-all-trades build.

Hybrids in other mmorpgs are not jack of all trades you see some classes where very good at cc with moderate dps and also offered unique buffs for example, while another class would do high burst dps with amazing stuns and debuffs.

Also a jack of all trades strengths is being able to fill out multiple roles, offhealer, off tank and so on. Like a swiss army knife in a pinch.

Blackfyre20 · April 2017

Tiitus wrote: »

I would say yes to hybrid builds being viable but not in a good way, hybrid builds are only viable because max-stat-build sustain was nerfed to the ground... that said hybrid build were not made better they are still "bad" its just an illusion crated by the nerfs to sustain... this is not the kind of balance that should be promoted.

Do i agree that hybrid builds should be viable, yes absolutely! i think they are fun.. but i also believe that someone who goes max stam or max magicka should better than a jack-of-all-trades build.

Just 100% disagree with pretty much everything here and think stacking one stat pool should continue to get nerfed. It is one of the problems that makes this game so hard to balance. Why should you be rewarded more for stacking one stat? It makes for far less build diversity which IMO is less fun and interesting. I also don't know why you refer to hybrids as a "jack-of-all-trades" and contrast that with the current max-stat meta. The whole idea of stacking one stat is that it gives you more healing, damage, shields, etc, which is what I would consider to be the definition of a "jack-of-all-trades."

Integral1900 · April 2017

The problem with a hybrid in a game where so much damage scales off one max stat is that in trying to make a hybrid you basically end up with a tank. I've spent millions and god alone knows how many mats trying to make a hybrid that works, until they change the game to use a calculation based on all three stats cumulatively then it's always going to be a weak build. The heals are weaker because most of them are based on max stats, same for most skills and even the good old heavy attack!

I'd love to play hybrids, especially as every stam build these days seems to end up with the same dam skills, but for the time being it's just won't work unless you confine yourself to normal dungeons only, take a hybrid into a vet dungeon and start hitting with at least a third less punch than the average dps and you'll get the boot in short order, vet is enough of a slog as it is without dragging a hybrid dps anchor around...

A true hybrid would need the game to be free of the max stat calculations, only then would you get a jack of all trades with teeth

PS4_ZeColmeia · April 2017

I've been reworking my mageblade hybrid after taking a crafting only break from combat play. On live, today, dps is no problem. With the cp changes, health mattering, and weaving being more important than ever to dps, I think I'm going to be doing even better.

There are some very important concepts on hybrids to maximize damage which is more than using 2 bars. Personally mageblade is the best hybrid because they benefit from crit better. Sorc are very close second.

ArconSeptim · April 2017

too much linear thinking

llSRRll · April 2017

With all the changes to sustain do you guys think that the Maelstrom S&B weapons could be useful now?

PS4_ZeColmeia · April 2017

llSRRll wrote: »

With all the changes to sustain do you guys think that the Maelstrom S&B weapons could be useful now?

Since there is no shield, it's a question of losing a monster helm 2 trait.

In most cases, assuming 35k , this is a 6.6% return. It stacks with other methods of stam recovery, and is its own weave for additional damage and mitigation.

Seems more solid than ever, but some of those monster helms tho.

Rungar · April 2017

this is one thing I really don't understand. most of the problems of this game are a direct result of the hidden boosts for having a large pool of magicka or stamina. Something like 1000 for every 10k.

you can never balance that. It will always undermine everything else they do.

this is why hybrids can never be useful for dps.

Masel · April 2017

I'm currently testing a hybrid dk build and it looks very promising so far. Will do the final testings once the EU chars are on the PTS. Using both Ressource pools equally helps with sustain and the damage is quite good (30k+ in PvE).

idk · April 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Don't have acceas to the PTS, but can you finally make a hybrid build now?

If by meaing are hybrids going to be close to meta then the answer is no. There are aspects of the base game that prevent hybrids from performing as well as pure builds. This has always been the case. When the game launched many of us used a stamina dump just because we could, but those were not really hybrid builds since it was often one skill only.

Adenoma · April 2017

This thread seems full of people commenting on the viability of hybrids without having ever actually tried to theorycraft or play a hybrid build. Hybrids are very viable in the current meta. I run a WW Templar hybrid that caps resists, hits over 40k max stam, and runs around with a little under 4K weapon damage. It gets even better in the new heavy attack intensive meta because it's high effective health and resists afford it the time to complete heavy attacks and sustain.

It feels good to hit you non-believers with 10k non-crit howls and then heal for 10k non-crits.

CTSCold · April 2017

Does anyone know why all the sets that seem best for hybrids are crafted? I was hoping to use twice born with one of the new ones but nope.