So are hybrid builds viable again?

STEVIL

amasuriel wrote: »

Guys, I don't think you understand. Hybrid is not bad because of sustain, it's bad because of damage. 10k magicka is roughly he same as 1000 spell damage. It's not possible to stack enough stam and magicka to make your skills hit harder than a light tickle, even with decent spell and weapon damage.

Try doing a non hybrid build with only 20 or 25k in the relevant stat, even with BiS gear. Your dps will suck.

Agreed on the point that hybrid is held back by damage not sustain.

In U14, sustain will hit the max dps a bit, closing that gap. Also, hybrids who can effectively use both stamina and magica polls and stamina and magica regen will be less impacted by sustain than those who rely predominantly on one pool and one regen - so the dps gap between hybrids and max-stat will be lower even if the tooltips are not.

So this brings the gaps down a bit and likely makes them "good enough" for most suff with well coordinated builds and strong play.

i think some of the changes of the type of "restores lowest pool" and "scales restore by level" also nudge this a bit closer.

but as far as straight out group/trial pure dps...its not likely they will be on par with the max-stat folks just closer.

joaaocaampos

• Master-at-Arms + Thaumaturge (Adds all sorts of damage).
• More Magicka or Stamina =/= More Damage (I already tested this).
• Sustain is no longer based on Max Resource. Sustain is now based on level.

What else? There's more. I know!

Rungar

joaaocaampos wrote: »

• Master-at-Arms + Thaumaturge (Adds all sorts of damage).*]
  
• More Magicka or Stamina =/= More Damage (I already tested this).
• Sustain is no longer based on Max Resource. Sustain is now based on level.

What else? There's more. I know!

[*] More Magicka or Stamina =/= More Damage (I already tested this).


can anyone else confirm this because that will change the game for everyone, and imo for the better.

Masel

The build I currently have in mind has 4200 spell and weapon damage, 28k stamina and magicka, selfbuffed.

A few things that will make hybrids better this patch are master-at-arms and thaumaturge are not much behind elemental expert and mighty, so you can concentrate on those two and spend remaining points equally in precise strikes, elfborn, elemental expert and mighty.

Then with pelinals aptitude, you can stack spell or weapon damage as much as possible.

Then going for a heavy set that boosts damage is not an issue, because you can just use a magicka + stamina food to compensate and get 5k benefit to both stats.

So you can either go 5 medium pelinals (for 12% Weapon Damage Bonus), 1 light 1 heavy kena or 1 kena 1 velidreth if you don't like the kena proc, and 5 dreugh king slayer OR 5 vicious ophidian with two swords. Max Magicka and max Stamina food with dreugh king and max health and max magicka with VO. Maelstrom Lightning or inferno on back bar,preferably lightning as you then have an awesome aoe tool with molten armaments, eruption and blockade.


Two swords because they also buff your magicka based skills, and daggers and maces don't. Axes are also fine as the dot is not too bad either.

Minor slayer also buffs both. Kena also buffs both, velidreth 1-piece will also buff both.

With eruption you get minor brutality, major brutality through dreugh king slayer or potions and major sorcery and 40% more to heavy attacks through molten armaments. Flames of oblivion scales off your highest resource and gives both critical buffs. I still have to test on the PTS, but it already performs pretty good on live.

I will probably post a more detailed buildguide in two weeks when the chars are copied on the PTS and I can get additional testing done

Tommy_The_Gun

Well.. The good news is that after next patch NB won't be nerfed ever again because there will be nothing left to nerf...
Btw. semi hybrid build used to be good for NB sap-tanks... but with the recent changes on PTS - even the sap tank will become useless...

psychotic13

I would like to think so but I just can't see it, I tried making so many hybrid variants and always found they were inferior.

The CP changes help somewhat, but your still going to have to split them, which gives the pure build an advantage straight away.

It's too hard to build decent wd/sd (this can be achieved with pelinals, but again straight always that's a 5pc set that offers no extra damage, and everyone's going to need a sustain set now) and manage to have decent enough crit in both, and large enough pools to make the damage meaningful.

Chilly-McFreeze

psychotic13 wrote: »

I would like to think so but I just can't see it, I tried making so many hybrid variants and always found they were inferior.

The CP changes help somewhat, but your still going to have to split them, which gives the pure build an advantage straight away.

It's too hard to build decent wd/sd (this can be achieved with pelinals, but again straight always that's a 5pc set that offers no extra damage, and everyone's going to need a sustain set now) and manage to have decent enough crit in both, and large enough pools to make the damage meaningful.

I can't access the pts bc the download stops somewhere and refuses to move even a percent, so I'm just guessing. But wouldn't being able to use both resources lessens the need to run a sustain set? I tried the sorc hybrid from foundry and, in comparison to my pure builds, run dry far fewer times.

Twohothardware

You guys better sincerely hope they don't make Hybrids viable competitors or there will be a new meta even worse than what we have now with MagSorc. I've already seen a couple guys trying to run StamSorc with Haunting Curse and Mages Wrath and doing pretty well.

Chilly-McFreeze

@Twohothardware Interesting. Can't really see how that could work. Atm, as stam sorc using magicka stuff for utility like e.g. mist form, yeah, but for pure damage?

Lynx7386

A hybrid Warden is almost viable, but still nowhere near a pure stat dps build. The new shacklebreaker set giving max stamina and magicka is more useful than pelinals for hybrid wardens, sorcs, or dragon knights, all of whom have an ability that can give both major brutality and sorcery.

If you go with two fully hybrid sets (shacklebreaker and something like black rose, arena, twice born, etc) with all prismatic enchants you can manage a reasonable level of magicka/stamina.

Lynx7386

Adenoma wrote: »

This thread seems full of people commenting on the viability of hybrids without having ever actually tried to theorycraft or play a hybrid build. Hybrids are very viable in the current meta. I run a WW Templar hybrid that caps resists, hits over 40k max stam, and runs around with a little under 4K weapon damage. It gets even better in the new heavy attack intensive meta because it's high effective health and resists afford it the time to complete heavy attacks and sustain.

It feels good to hit you non-believers with 10k non-crit howls and then heal for 10k non-crits.

And what is your magicka at?

argouru

The real issue with hybrid builds is that damage is dependent on max magicka or stamina. If they changed this so that damage was not tied to max pts in a stat or at least put it all into the front half of the stat (say up to 32 attribute pts (not sure how many actual magicka/stamina pts that would be) hybrid builds could function without giving up damage. Sure, a player would have to pick their powers carefully to balance out magicka costs vs stamina costs based on the more limited pools of said stat, but it could make for more variety in builds, letting players mix and match gear and skills without becoming weaker in battle.

Merlin13KAGL

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Everything in the actual new zone, including quests and new gear sets, is included under the NDA.

There's been a partial lift to the NDA, actually.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337395/morrowind-gear-sets/p1

And regarding viability, if you want 2x the effective regen with half the damage, they'll be about as viable as they are on live.

(They'll actually hit a bit harder, but still won't hit hard.)

TheStealthDude

Lynx7386 wrote: »

A hybrid Warden is almost viable, but still nowhere near a pure stat dps build. The new shacklebreaker set giving max stamina and magicka is more useful than pelinals for hybrid wardens, sorcs, or dragon knights, all of whom have an ability that can give both major brutality and sorcery.

If you go with two fully hybrid sets (shacklebreaker and something like black rose, arena, twice born, etc) with all prismatic enchants you can manage a reasonable level of magicka/stamina.

Have you tested Shacklebreaker vs Pelinals to come to this conclusion? While I agree that having a single ability provide both buffs is more useful for non-Pelinal's hybrid characters, it still seems like the math is on the Pelinals side for stacking damage.

The other problem with Shacklebreaker is that it's a crafted set, meaning there are very few hybrid type sets to pair with it. 2 of the 3 you listed were also crafted, so we wouldn't be able to get another 5 piece bonus. Perhaps there are future sets that ZOS is planning that might make Shacklebreaker more viable, but right now it just seems like it's only uses are for a niche PvP hybrid tank (with Black Rose) or as a stepping stone towards Pelinals.

All that said, I am looking forward to trying out some new hybrid builds on my DK and perhaps Sorcerer. The DK sustain changes actually don't affect my current hybrid build as much, since I run just under 30k Max Magicka and about 20k Max Stamina. Might even be a slight buff. Combined with a much cheaper Flame of Oblivion and slightly cheaper whip, it's starting to look good!

Anti_Virus

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

A hybrid Warden is almost viable, but still nowhere near a pure stat dps build. The new shacklebreaker set giving max stamina and magicka is more useful than pelinals for hybrid wardens, sorcs, or dragon knights, all of whom have an ability that can give both major brutality and sorcery.

If you go with two fully hybrid sets (shacklebreaker and something like black rose, arena, twice born, etc) with all prismatic enchants you can manage a reasonable level of magicka/stamina.

Have you tested Shacklebreaker vs Pelinals to come to this conclusion? While I agree that having a single ability provide both buffs is more useful for non-Pelinal's hybrid characters, it still seems like the math is on the Pelinals side for stacking damage.

The other problem with Shacklebreaker is that it's a crafted set, meaning there are very few hybrid type sets to pair with it. 2 of the 3 you listed were also crafted, so we wouldn't be able to get another 5 piece bonus. Perhaps there are future sets that ZOS is planning that might make Shacklebreaker more viable, but right now it just seems like it's only uses are for a niche PvP hybrid tank (with Black Rose) or as a stepping stone towards Pelinals.

All that said, I am looking forward to trying out some new hybrid builds on my DK and perhaps Sorcerer. The DK sustain changes actually don't affect my current hybrid build as much, since I run just under 30k Max Magicka and about 20k Max Stamina. Might even be a slight buff. Combined with a much cheaper Flame of Oblivion and slightly cheaper whip, it's starting to look good!

[Edit]
Couldn't you pair Pelinals aptitude with trainee?

Anti_Virus

[Double Post]

Merlin13KAGL

You're never going to match the #'s you'll get with all in one stat/damage type.

So, you can expect a bit better than half from each stat pool, resulting in lower Spell Damage/Weapon Damage, and regen from two sources (Mag regen, Stam regen), thus effectively doubling your regen.

You'll have double the options twice as long, with half the punch. You might be able to come up with some kind of super-DoT build, but I suspect that would be even less engaging than the heavy attack meta that will ensue.

@Anti_Virus you're thinking of Trainee

DragonBound

Zos can you please confirm if you have any plans to help hybrids become viable pretty please?

olsborg

Short answer, no.
Long answer, hell no.

TheStealthDude

DragonBound wrote: »

Zos can you please confirm if you have any plans to help hybrids become viable?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You're never going to match the #'s you'll get with all in one stat/damage type.

So, you can expect a bit better than half from each stat pool, resulting in lower Spell Damage/Weapon Damage, and regen from two sources (Mag regen, Stam regen), thus effectively doubling your regen.

You'll have double the options twice as long, with half the punch. You might be able to come up with some kind of super-DoT build, but I suspect that would be even less engaging than the heavy attack meta that will ensue.

@Anti_Virus you're thinking of Trainee

You can do much better than half the damage when using Pelinals. Not the same as a pure build, but much better than half. With the sustain nerfs, the DPS gap should close a bit, due to hybrid builds not needing to build as much sustain. Put another way: the ceiling was lowered more for pure DPS builds than it was for hybrid builds.

TheStealthDude

DragonBound wrote: »

Zos can you please confirm if you have any plans to help hybrids become viable pretty please?

I would think that them introducing multiple new hybrid sets is their way of confirming that. While it's not enough to make hybrids competitive in PvE, hybrid builds (if done right) are still viable for completing any content in the game. Just don't expect to make any PvE leaderboards.

Lynx7386

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

A hybrid Warden is almost viable, but still nowhere near a pure stat dps build. The new shacklebreaker set giving max stamina and magicka is more useful than pelinals for hybrid wardens, sorcs, or dragon knights, all of whom have an ability that can give both major brutality and sorcery.

If you go with two fully hybrid sets (shacklebreaker and something like black rose, arena, twice born, etc) with all prismatic enchants you can manage a reasonable level of magicka/stamina.

Have you tested Shacklebreaker vs Pelinals to come to this conclusion? While I agree that having a single ability provide both buffs is more useful for non-Pelinal's hybrid characters, it still seems like the math is on the Pelinals side for stacking damage.

The other problem with Shacklebreaker is that it's a crafted set, meaning there are very few hybrid type sets to pair with it. 2 of the 3 you listed were also crafted, so we wouldn't be able to get another 5 piece bonus. Perhaps there are future sets that ZOS is planning that might make Shacklebreaker more viable, but right now it just seems like it's only uses are for a niche PvP hybrid tank (with Black Rose) or as a stepping stone towards Pelinals.

All that said, I am looking forward to trying out some new hybrid builds on my DK and perhaps Sorcerer. The DK sustain changes actually don't affect my current hybrid build as much, since I run just under 30k Max Magicka and about 20k Max Stamina. Might even be a slight buff. Combined with a much cheaper Flame of Oblivion and slightly cheaper whip, it's starting to look good!

Yes. Pelinals will still give greater damage if you stack gear towards one stat (weapon or spell damage), but you'll be severely lacking in a resource pool for the second stat.

The new hybrid sets can't max out weapon or spell damage like pelinals, but you'll have much higher resource pools to work with.

ashenb14_ESO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5D32QGsy0&t=2928s

really doubt it

Kram8ion

Maybe if weapon swapping was better


Maybe

Synozeer

Lynx7386 wrote: »

A hybrid Warden is almost viable, but still nowhere near a pure stat dps build. The new shacklebreaker set giving max stamina and magicka is more useful than pelinals for hybrid wardens, sorcs, or dragon knights, all of whom have an ability that can give both major brutality and sorcery.

Nightblades also have an ability that gives both, Sap Essence.

DragonBound

TheStealthDude wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Zos can you please confirm if you have any plans to help hybrids become viable pretty please?

I would think that them introducing multiple new hybrid sets is their way of confirming that. While it's not enough to make hybrids competitive in PvE, hybrid builds (if done right) are still viable for completing any content in the game. Just don't expect to make any PvE leaderboards.

They would not just release the sets without making them more viable in general, so one cannot assume perhaps they have plans for more for hybrids this is why I am asking clearly.

JimT722

Adenoma wrote: »

This thread seems full of people commenting on the viability of hybrids without having ever actually tried to theorycraft or play a hybrid build. Hybrids are very viable in the current meta. I run a WW Templar hybrid that caps resists, hits over 40k max stam, and runs around with a little under 4K weapon damage. It gets even better in the new heavy attack intensive meta because it's high effective health and resists afford it the time to complete heavy attacks and sustain.

It feels good to hit you non-believers with 10k non-crit howls and then heal for 10k non-crits.

This doesn't sound like a hybrid. More like a stamina build with slight utility.

Adenoma

@Lynx7386 , sits right under 20k. Enough that when not a WW I reliably use radiant as an execute that feels stronger than running reverse slice.

And I think that it's difficult to say that it isn't a hybrid. I'm using high spell and weapon damage in order to maximize the use of two resource pools. Sure, I'm not using my magicka for offensive output - but how many stamina builds are healing primarily off of magicka? That frees me from a huge sustain issue and allows me to use all of my massive stamina pool to maneuver around and DPS other players.

Thanks to running Leki's 5 piece the build does not fold at all to dawnbreaker, especially with capped resists.

Merlin13KAGL

@TheStealthDude , I'm not talking tooltip SD/WD, but rather the effective SD/WD by the amount the stat pool adds (10.5 magicka/stamina = + 1 dmg)

Since your pools will be split, it should still be a pretty significant reduction.

I do agree that coupled with Pelinial's it may make for some interesting (at least different than current) possibilities.

The bonuses at lower CP investment in a single star will assist in that as well.

Tack on some things like Prisoner's Rags and it could be interesting.

DeadlyRecluse

Viable=/=BiS/Competitive/top-tier.

Hybrids have always been viable for 95 percent of PvE content and several PvP playstyles. And yeah, this patch made them more viable for those functions.