Proposed alternative to the Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes changes, and why:

bubbygink · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

The_Outsider wrote: »

The issue with that, is that currently the strength of the skill is to have 100% uptime during combat. You'd be refreshing it before the duration expired based on the ebb and flow of combat, so you'd never get that resource refund.

I'm also okay with the way they changed the ability, although I do prefer the old functionality. I'm just not okay with where the values landed based on the stated purpose of the change. Basically, the new version is a nerf to survivability when it's whole purpose is to aid our survivability.

This really touches on why this nerf is so big IMO. Because siphoning attacks is so critical there are plenty of instances where I cast it before its full duration. This is particularly true in open world where I will often recast it any time I LoS for a moment so that I won't have to recast it again in 9 seconds (or whenever) while I'm trying to apply pressure. So even with the new duration increase to 20 seconds I would say that I may still reapply it every 15 seconds or on average, and maybe even more frequently in situation with a lot of LoS.

Currently, the cost for siphoning attacks is 2700 unadjusted. As a high elf I believe the only cost reduction I will have is 10% from 5 light armor pieces (I believe they nerfed it from 3% reduction to 2% per piece) which puts the cost around 2430. In BGs there is no-CP, we have no class reduction, and there is no racial reduction for altmer so I believe this is a close approximation to the cost. Assuming this cost, and a 350 magicka restore per LA, that means I will need to land 7 LAs to even make up for the cost. Even with perfect weaving and no LoS that is going to take 9-10 seconds. This is for an ability that will probably only be up on average for about 15 seconds per cast. Throw in a mistake with weaving every now and then, some CCs that take a second to break, some line of sighting every once in a while, and it may actually take a whole 15 seconds to land the 7 LAs you need just to break even.

This certainly raises the skill required to play MB, probably already the most difficult class, by a huge amount. I would guess that most players don't weave perfectly - e.g. I notice many of my guild members struggle weaving on resto bar, many wont weave btw shields, many won't weave when needing to use fear. These players will really have no use for siphoning attacks, it will just drain their magicka. Whatever happened ZoS's whole "trying to reduce clunkiness and difficulty" thing they claimed they had going with the last patch? Yes, skilled nightblades that are very comfortable weaving will still be able to derive benefit from it. They will start to gain back resources after 9 seconds or so when not LoSing. But they will have to be careful not to recast too often. And in situations with lots of LoSing it is a wash anyway.

Even in an almost ideal situation I cannot see my self getting off more than about 13-14 LAs per cast. This is allowing for full duration each time with very little LoSing and no mistakes on weaves. This only returns about 2100-2450 per 20 second cast, so equivalent to just a tad over 200 regen. And that is in an IDEAL situation. In reality, I LoS a lot and will recast SA before the duration ends (even if its typically at 17, 18 seconds it still cut into it). I will also make mistakes weaving every now and then. So I don't think it is a far off estimate to say I would average about 10 LAs per cast. This equates to just over 1000 magicka gained back every cast. This is just a tad over 100 regen (assuming each cast is every 17-18 seconds or so). I guess what I am getting at is that I think if this SA attack nerf is going to remain then the skill should be free to cast.

Izaki · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I think that the values of the return itself need to go up. As of now its not even worth casting. You get a poor man's Crit Surge that only works on light and heavy attacks and 400 magicka/stamina per light attack. I think for this skill to even bear the resemblance of a resource management skill, the values should be increased to around 400-500 magicka/stamina (still basically half of what it is on live). The heal should also be increased to about 1.8-2k and should be allowed to crit (based on spell or weapon crit depending on the ability). That would make the ability actually worthwhile and not overpowered. Then there would still be a problem with the cost (roughly 6 light attacks before you refund the cost of the ability on PTS) so the cost should really be reduced to something where you don't need to wait at least 6 globals to start gaining resources.

So basically my proposal, if we were to keep the magicka and stamina restore separate.

Siphoning Strikes (unmorphed):
- Costs 2360 magicka
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1800 health. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical chance.

Leeching Strikes:
- Costs 2020 stamina
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1800 health and restore 449 stamina. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Weapon Critical chance.
Also restores stamina.

Siphoning Attacks:
- Costs 2360 magicka
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1800 health and restore 449 magicka. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical chance.
Also restores magicka.

So basically all the values slightly increased and the cost slightly reduced (stamina morph costs 15% less than the magicka one as ZOS intends it). At this point the ability actually becomes a decent HoT and the resource restore is actually noticeable (4 light attacks to refund the cost, instead of 6 as it is now). Basically increased the healing by 15% and the resource returns by 25%. Same cost (I think)

Although I do like the idea of keeping the resource return similar to how it is now (both resources with one morph), I doubt ZOS are willing to take that route... But if they do, this would be my suggestion:

Siphoning Strikes (unmorphed):
- Costs 2360 magicka
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1500 health. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical chance.

Leeching Strikes:
- Costs 2020 magicka
- Lasts 30 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 2000 health. On ability cast you have a 10% chance to restore 20% of the ability's cost. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical or Weapon Critical chance, whichever one is higher.
Longer duration, heals for more, costs less, chance to restore part of the cost of an ability.

Siphoning Attacks:
- Costs 2360 magicka
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1500 health and restore 359 magicka and stamina. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical or Weapon Critical chance, whichever one is higher.
Also restores magicka and stamina.

Same values restored, same healing.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

@bubbygink @The_Outsider So to guide discussion further, do you think the cost should be reduced/eliminated, or the sustain increased?

If ZOS keeps it as-is on PTS, it's a mild source of magicka or stamina sustain + a small hot. If ZOS reduces the costs, it's a stronger source of one type of sustain + a small hot. If ZOS adds stamina back to the ability as-is on PTS, you pay magicka, break even on that, and get a hot and stamina sustain in return. Etc etc.

My proposal keeps the magicka sustain numbers barely over breakeven, as they are on PTS. I'd personally like to see greater magicka sustain from SA so I don't have to build so much more of it.

Opinions?

kadar · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

bubbygink wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

The issue with that, is that currently the strength of the skill is to have 100% uptime during combat. You'd be refreshing it before the duration expired based on the ebb and flow of combat, so you'd never get that resource refund.

I'm also okay with the way they changed the ability, although I do prefer the old functionality. I'm just not okay with where the values landed based on the stated purpose of the change. Basically, the new version is a nerf to survivability when it's whole purpose is to aid our survivability.

This really touches on why this nerf is so big IMO. Because siphoning attacks is so critical there are plenty of instances where I cast it before its full duration. This is particularly true in open world where I will often recast it any time I LoS for a moment so that I won't have to recast it again in 9 seconds (or whenever) while I'm trying to apply pressure. So even with the new duration increase to 20 seconds I would say that I may still reapply it every 15 seconds or on average, and maybe even more frequently in situation with a lot of LoS.

Currently, the cost for siphoning attacks is 2700 unadjusted. As a high elf I believe the only cost reduction I will have is 10% from 5 light armor pieces (I believe they nerfed it from 3% reduction to 2% per piece) which puts the cost around 2430. In BGs there is no-CP, we have no class reduction, and there is no racial reduction for altmer so I believe this is a close approximation to the cost. Assuming this cost, and a 350 magicka restore per LA, that means I will need to land 7 LAs to even make up for the cost. Even with perfect weaving and no LoS that is going to take 9-10 seconds. This is for an ability that will probably only be up on average for about 15 seconds per cast. Throw in a mistake with weaving every now and then, some CCs that take a second to break, some line of sighting every once in a while, and it may actually take a whole 15 seconds to land the 7 LAs you need just to break even.

This certainly raises the skill required to play MB, probably already the most difficult class, by a huge amount. I would guess that most players don't weave perfectly - e.g. I notice many of my guild members struggle weaving on resto bar, many wont weave btw shields, many won't weave when needing to use fear. These players will really have no use for siphoning attacks, it will just drain their magicka. Whatever happened ZoS's whole "trying to reduce clunkiness and difficulty" thing they claimed they had going with the last patch? Yes, skilled nightblades that are very comfortable weaving will still be able to derive benefit from it. They will start to gain back resources after 9 seconds or so when not LoSing. But they will have to be careful not to recast too often. And in situations with lots of LoSing it is a wash anyway.

Even in an almost ideal situation I cannot see my self getting off more than about 13-14 LAs per cast. This is allowing for full duration each time with very little LoSing and no mistakes on weaves. This only returns about 2100-2450 per 20 second cast, so equivalent to just a tad over 200 regen. And that is in an IDEAL situation. In reality, I LoS a lot and will recast SA before the duration ends (even if its typically at 17, 18 seconds it still cut into it). I will also make mistakes weaving every now and then. So I don't think it is a far off estimate to say I would average about 10 LAs per cast. This equates to just over 1000 magicka gained back every cast. This is just a tad over 100 regen (assuming each cast is every 17-18 seconds or so). I guess what I am getting at is that I think if this SA attack nerf is going to remain then the skill should be free to cast.

Yep. TL;DR: It's bad on paper and worse in any practical scenario.

Xvorg · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Each patch I've had to respawn my NBs, rethink them and try to learn again how to play them...

Now I'm tired.

Tired to see how zenimax forces you to run a ganker build to actually play
Tired of sending good builds to the trash can
Tired of asking for at least one slightly buff
Tired of asking for a fix in our most important class skills.
Tired to see those ridiculous overnerfs on a class that has been the worst for the last 3 or 4 patches

I'm done.

So I think I'll erase each one of my NBs and DKs, just to fill the slots I have with Sorcs...

I suppose that what's ZoS wants me to do...

kadar · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@bubbygink @The_Outsider So to guide discussion further, do you think the cost should be reduced/eliminated, or the sustain increased?

If ZOS keeps it as-is on PTS, it's a mild source of magicka or stamina sustain + a small hot. If ZOS reduces the costs, it's a stronger source of one type of sustain + a small hot. If ZOS adds stamina back to the ability as-is on PTS, you pay magicka, break even on that, and get a hot and stamina sustain in return. Etc etc.

My proposal keeps the magicka sustain numbers barely over breakeven, as they are on PTS. I'd personally like to see greater magicka sustain from SA so I don't have to build so much more of it.

Opinions?

What would be the difference between a reduced/eliminated cost and a flat sustain increase? The former would result in immediate resource gain, and the latter would delay resource gain until the cost of the ability was paid for--and then potentially net better sustain overall?

I really like the dual stat return that SA has on live, for both Stam and Mag NB. I think it's fun, useful, and aligns well with resource mechanics from other classes (I'm thinking of Battle Roar). Other classes also have ways to trade a certain resource pool for another. In it's current form, this feels like NB's way of doing that. Give Magcika, get primary and secondary resource pool in return.

In an effort to keep that functionality I'd prefer a change similar to the one you originally suggested in your OP @NightbladeMechanics, only where the small HoT either has the ability to crit, has it's base value increased, or is not halved by battle spirit. I'm not sure if there's precedent for this-- I think of Crit surge, does it crit, is is cut by battle spirit?

Basically what @IzakiBrotherSs suggested:

Siphoning Attacks:
- Costs 2360 magicka
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1500 health and restore 359 magicka and stamina. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical or Weapon Critical chance, whichever one is higher.
Also restores magicka and stamina.

Going this route also opens up the possibility for Leeching to have unique damage or debuff effects in exchange for not having sustain effects. This could even be used to help buff end game NB DPS/group utility.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

The_Outsider wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@bubbygink @The_Outsider So to guide discussion further, do you think the cost should be reduced/eliminated, or the sustain increased?

If ZOS keeps it as-is on PTS, it's a mild source of magicka or stamina sustain + a small hot. If ZOS reduces the costs, it's a stronger source of one type of sustain + a small hot. If ZOS adds stamina back to the ability as-is on PTS, you pay magicka, break even on that, and get a hot and stamina sustain in return. Etc etc.

My proposal keeps the magicka sustain numbers barely over breakeven, as they are on PTS. I'd personally like to see greater magicka sustain from SA so I don't have to build so much more of it.

Opinions?

What would be the difference between a reduced/eliminated cost and a flat sustain increase? The former would result in immediate resource gain, and the latter would delay resource gain until the cost of the ability was paid for--and then potentially net better sustain overall?

I really like the dual stat return that SA has on live, for both Stam and Mag NB. I think it's fun, useful, and aligns well with resource mechanics from other classes (I'm thinking of Battle Roar). Other classes also have ways to trade a certain resource pool for another. In it's current form, this feels like NB's way of doing that. Give Magcika, get primary and secondary resource pool in return.

In an effort to keep that functionality I'd prefer a change similar to the one you originally suggested in your OP @NightbladeMechanics, only where the small HoT either has the ability to crit, has it's base value increased, or is not halved by battle spirit. I'm not sure if there's precedent for this-- I think of Crit surge, does it crit, is is cut by battle spirit?

Basically what @IzakiBrotherSs suggested:

Siphoning Attacks:
- Costs 2360 magicka
- Lasts 20 seconds
- Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1500 health and restore 359 magicka and stamina. The healing from this ability can critically heal, scaling on your Spell Critical or Weapon Critical chance, whichever one is higher.
Also restores magicka and stamina.

Going this route also opens up the possibility for Leeching to have unique damage or debuff effects in exchange for not having sustain effects. This could even be used to help buff end game NB DPS/group utility.

A higher initial cost with higher on hit resource return would more strongly link the sustain to how many attacks you're able to successfully land -- i.e. your aggression and control of the fight. With a higher cost, you're punished more if the enemy keeps you on defense or line of sighting, and if you let your magicka run too low, you could find yourself unable to cast it to recover. Likewise a low cost or no cost makes casting Siphoning Attacks before its duration ends or casting it then being unable to get attacks off more forgiving.

I support a high initial cost, high resource return on hit, dual resource return, and a relatively short duration to make people remain conscious of their buffs.

I'd be really excited to have Leeching developed as an aggressive damage or or debuff or even a minor mending morph, with Siphoning as the go-to resource sustain morph.

bubbygink · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

If ZoS insists on leaving the numbers the way they are then I believe it should be free to cast. However, this is not my preference. I'd rather have the upfront cost but return magicka and stamina.

I pretty much echo what everyone has been saying: the duel stat return is what made Siphoning Attacks unique and so useful for Magblades. Even if the current return values remain so low, SA would still very much be worth slotting for the stam return (if it was added back in). However, I still think the 350 value is really low and makes it tough to even recoup the cost of the ability (as I detailed above). In another thread I suggested just making it restore ~700 of each resource per light attack. While it doesn't necessarily have to be that number but I think it should at least be a bump up from the 350.

SA previously restored about 1300 Magicka and Stamina per LA when factoring in the 10% chance for extra restoration which has been removed. So nerfing it down to about 600-700 is still a massive nerf to sustain. It would still be a ~50% nerf that would, IMO, accomplish ZoS's goal of reducing sustain. Magblades would certainly be forced into using sustain sets, particularly in no CP. However, with that return SA would still be worth slotting and would remain a hallmark of the Magblade class.

tl:dr: the most important thing is to restore the dual magicka and stam return - this is a class defining mechanic IMO.

Morimizo · April 2017

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I thoroughly support hybrid builds, even if that means only using stam or mag as the utility portion of the combat, and believe that almost all of the class skills should have a stam morph, and that any passive (whether racial or class) should buff the highest of the two values, or both, instead of being fixed on one or the other.

Great OP, and I would take it further, and have minor magicka steal be combined with a minor stamina steal (though somewhat lower in values) embedded in at least one skill for each class, even a couple of the weapons.

They need to be careful to not go so overboard with sustain nerfs that everyone has to normal/heavy attack most of the time, even after gimping all their gear damage in favor of regen and cost reduction.

aeowulf · April 2017

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DuckNoodles wrote: »

They should of just removed CP sustain and left skills alone.

exactly this.

then IF the CP sustain/cost increases weren't enough resist classes that are still over performing.

argouru · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I think flipping the stats on the cost would help. Make Leeching cost magicka to cast and restore health and stamina, and make sa cost stamina to activate and restore health and magicka.

arkansas_ESO · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

To the devs reading this thread: again, keep in mind, people are talking about how much Siphoning Attacks will return in a best case scenario. You won't be light attacking every second if you're trying to kite with Shadow Image, or if you're trying to reposition with Cloak or Mist Form. And, realistically, you won't be light attacking every second even if you're trying to, due to how buggy weaving with some of NB's skills (namely Swallow Soul) is.

Meanwhile, sorc's Dark Deal is almost instant. You can LOS, or Streak, and get it off quickly. Dragonknight's Igneous Shield is an instant cast, and has a secondary buff (Major Mending). Warden's Netch is completely passive, you don't have to do anything but cast it to see immediate results from it. Templar's Channeled Focus is almost completely passive, and has a secondary buff (Major Resolve/Ward.)

NedicWildling · April 2017

Keep the PTS changes exactly as they are.

I do agree with your point about building for pvp requires magicka based players (that aren't relying on s&b) to have a way to have stamina intake, and at the same time i think that's part of the problem. Players aren't forced to make changes gear wise for it. DK, Sorc and NB all have ways to return stamina as magicka builds as opposed to templar having rely on repentence to actually be rewarded for getting a kill, or relying on mist form to trade magicka for a little bit of stam regeneration. Imo if a magicka NB wants to sustain enough stamina for blocking certain things and breaking free they should have to up their stam regen and choose the stam morph of siphoning. I think the second morph you suggested combining that with incap and that vulnerability would put nb head and shoulders above other classes.

As a side note @NightbladeMechanics Hope you can make more posts like this about PTS if you have the time, your opinion is really valuable to make PTS successful.

Kemenril · April 2017

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ZOS, please take this suggestion thread seriously. An entire build culture currently relies on this, and it's one that I just started playing and loving. It is also a build that requires the most skill of any build I've played to date, which would seem to fit the mandate currently being discussed to increase the skill requirements of combat (which any MagBlade or SapTank will probably agree with). This change would do nothing but injure a class that is far from OP, and really, the only viable NB tanking option.

KingJ · April 2017

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@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert can you please read this thread.

FlyLionel · April 2017

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A Nightblade that understands the class. Never thought of adding the extra health to siphoning. But that is a buff to nightblades in pvp and is needed. Yes please.

Lucky28 · April 2017

I don't even care anymore to be honest. i've watched magblade get nerfed patch after patch when it needed minor adjustments. and to see these nerfs to cp and classes.... not really that motivated to play the game in general.

CavalryPK · April 2017

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just commenting to make sure this get bumped up in the Recent Discussions for more visibility.

KingJ · April 2017

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FlyLionel wrote: »

A Nightblade that understands the class. Never thought of adding the extra health to siphoning. But that is a buff to nightblades in pvp and is needed. Yes please.

I'll rather have one morph that give minor mending or viltatly then the current health return.

hobicabobjob · April 2017

If a ZOS employee could comment it would really make my day.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

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hobicabobjob wrote: »

If a ZOS employee could comment it would really make my day.

Wheeler and others have commented on some of my stuff before, and I tried to organize this post for them. I'm hopeful. Just keep the discussion going in this thread and other Siphoning threads. They're watching.

KingJ wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

A Nightblade that understands the class. Never thought of adding the extra health to siphoning. But that is a buff to nightblades in pvp and is needed. Yes please.

I'll rather have one morph that give minor mending or viltatly then the current health return.

Yea, or buff the new health return and let it crit.

They should at least reduce the cost or add the percent chance to get more resources on direct damage back to the ability. The way that component synergizes with sap essence is really cool.

ninjaguyman · April 2017

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So what more do can we suggest other than just bumping the thread?

I say we make siphoning attacks the morph that restores both mag and stam( and even the health if zos is going this way), making it the definitive sustain morph. both tanks and pvp builds will likely use this. I assume the values will be less than that on live, but hope that they will be buffed at least a little bit.

But for leeching strikes i suggest this be made into some sort of offensive morph which dps builds could use. I'm thinking leeching strikes could also deal magick damage equal to the amount of health it restores, adding a bit of weaving damage to magicka nightblade builds in dungeons.

But then there would no longer be a stamina morph, however, I don't think leeching strikes is very useful to stam nightblades as it stands. Maybe they could just make it do physical or magic damage, depending on which stat is higher?

JimT722 · April 2017

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Damage is low for magicka nb. I wear 5 piece amberplasm and stack everything else into spell damage. Not optimal as is, I struggle to do 15k dps. Without siphoning attack I could see this dropping even more because I will have to tone down my dps to get some recovery.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

It's also bothering me that ZOS scrapped the percentage chance to return resources on direct damage. That has a very nice class synergy with sap essence which we will be losing.

What if Siphoning Attacks remained as-is on pts but gained 15% chance when dealing direct damage to restore 1500 magicka and stamina?

Or something along those lines. That's still way lower than live values, but at least we'd have something returning stamina in the ability..

rimmidimdim · April 2017

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Why does ZOS absolutely hate hybrid builds? That is my question. The NB class was most versatile because of siphoning strikes. I don't get it. Why destroy the possibility of different builds? I love playing hybrid. Now I can't. Should I believe that a hybrid NB was way OP? I don't get this. I'm very disappointed. My play style which was not OP is now toast. I tried other styles this is my favorite. If this goes live I will quite sub.

VelociousLegend · April 2017

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I think nearly any of the ideas in this thread would be better for SA than what is proposed on PTS. As a magblade, if you run out of stam and get CCed... GG.

One morph should be the sustain morph to give magic+stam to caster and the other an offensive/aggressive morph (like the suggested debuffs).

Blackleopardex · April 2017

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After a bit of a rage and disappointment I'm taking a deep breath here before talking about tanking and mag-blade pvp/pve:

First let's talk about tanking. The biggest issue I see with this change for me is the complete wrecking of the nightblade tank, it had seen nerf after nerf to the shiponing attacks morph and I agree it was too strong in past. However this change, completely removing the 10% chance to restore resources on attack, is destroying the concept completely. As it is today nightblade-tank sustain in PVE is viable with shiponing attack but not easy(with beneficial sets for the group). We need a way to keep up like the DK have "helping hands" and the ultimate passive. As the change stands now on PTS it's a death to NB tanks as I see it.

When it comes to mag-blade in pvp I agree with what's been said above for the most part, we need sustain to be competitive. I run a 100% damage build in 5 light(1xKena 5xAlchemist 5xNecro 3xInfused 4xDivines 3xSpelldamageGlyph) on the live server today and my damage is compatible. But I rely on buffing myself and merciless resolve to be able to kill someone. So the damage output takes time while I need to heal myself at the same time to survive since the damage income is insane as well. THIS NEEDS SUSTAIN.

When it comes to PVE, Mag-blade DD, the damage buff we got to twisting path was needed and I'm happy with this. It's a challenge to get high dps in trials today and impossible to compete with Sorc or DK. The shiponing nerf in this situation is the same as above. Take away one of few benefits we have that does not even make us competitive in PVE damage wise.

I'm not gonna talk about stamina since my Stam-blade sits crying in a corner on my character-select screen. But I will say the nerf is not needed here either.

To sum it up the changes you make here are absolutely awful. It's attacking a already unloved class. As it is today I find night-blade a challenge both in pvp and pve(dps-wise) and I like that, I'm not gonna ask you to buff it... but please show some mercy and consider my suggestions below:

My first suggestion would be to keep the skill as it is today. Really... However I will propose a counter nerf, a simple one, even tho it's not needed:

Shiponing Attacks morph:
Duration 20 seconds.
Cost 2900 magicka
All direct damage attacks have a 10% chance to restore 2200 magicka and stamina.

Leeching Strikes morph:
Duration 20 seconds
Cost 2900 magicka
All light and heavy attacks restore 1000 stamina and magica.

As you can see I split the current live morph Shiponing Attacks in two and adjusted it a bit. I think this way the skill would still be viable and at the same time get the nerf they are trending with in this coming patch. This also keeps the skill usable for builds that does not use heavy or light attack at all. That said I still think that no nerf is needed in the first place.

I really struggle to see where this change is coming from because if you compare it to the other classes it is not even close to as strong in resistence, dps or healing. It's a challenging class to play today and that's fun but don't over do it, give me something to work with here to keep the class possible.

leepalmer95 · April 2017

Im pretty sure it was changed so classes will havr to build for sustain on both resources if they want to make full use of their utility resource.

In 1.6 most stamblades went with a stam/mag regen drink because having magicka was important for fear, cloak, shade etc....

Currently you don't need to do that anymore, siphoning strikes + heavy armor pretty much gave you better sustain in magicka as a stamblade then regen drinks ever did.

Honestly i like it, another sustain aspect to be managed in order to make full use of skills and passives.

This will also make those sets that give both magicka and stamina regen more favourable. Lets be honest when was the last time on a magblade or a stamblade that you even worried about your off stat?

Elyu · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

My 2 cents:

Why does the pts version cost anything?
Why limit the resource return to proc off light/heavy attacks?

The warden's netch is:
Free
Provides resources
Provides a major buff
Can proc pet sets

nbs already can proc pet sets through shade, so at the very least tie a buff yourself / debuff enemy into the skill, as well as making the initial cast free.

If anything, I would say they SHOULD have both morphs act as sustain skills, but have one return moderate - low amounts of both resources, and the other morph return a respectable amount of whichever resource you've stacked most of.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Why does ZOS absolutely hate hybrid builds? That is my question. The NB class was most versatile because of siphoning strikes. I don't get it. Why destroy the possibility of different builds? I love playing hybrid. Now I can't. Should I believe that a hybrid NB was way OP? I don't get this. I'm very disappointed. My play style which was not OP is now toast. I tried other styles this is my favorite. If this goes live I will quite sub.

Yea I don't understand the SA change.. Nerf it, sure, but take away the dual resource return altogether? That's just destroying core class mechanics.