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I'm Confused by Resistance to Subscription/Expansion Costs

  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
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    Alchemical wrote: »
    Subscribing is not a big deal to me. Buying an expansion pack in addition to subscribing isn't that big a deal either. But I'm the kinda psycho who spent a decade playing WoW and invested thousands of dollars in my account.

    To me the big debate seems to be about semantics. Because expansion packs are DLC despite what anyone tries to say. Personally it seems obvious major expansions would be excluded from the sub system, since it includes multiple new areas and a swathe of new content (including an entire class) as opposed to a singular zone and skill line as with previous DLCs, which would be prohibitively expensive to distribute for free. But it does go against the most literal interpretation of the ESO+ subscription, which grants access to 'all' DLC.

    I do find Morrowind's starting price of $60 extremely offensive. Expansion packs usually do not cost the same as a brand new game, since they depend on another game to function. Maybe if they gave subscribers a $15 discount on expansions, as a sign of good faith for their ongoing support, people would be a little less miffed. I know I'm sure as heck not paying full brand new video game retail for DLC.

    Well, Morrowind is not technically a DLC for those who buy the boxed retail version. It's only 'downloadable' for those that buy the digital version. So in that respect, there is a difference... it's not 'DLC' for all players.
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  • Dark_Aether
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    I have no problem paying for expansions, I know they take more resources to create them. It's the principle. You cannot go and make a bold claim that subscribers will get all DLC for free and then turn around and be like "these are Chapters"

    Screw your terminology! They are downloadable content that you add to the base game to expand the experience = DLC. Do not make promises you cannot keep.
  • DaveMoeDee
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    ADarklore wrote: »
    ADarklore wrote: »
    Zuboko wrote: »
    If you put a bird feeder out to give the birds in the area free food, then wait until the birds have gotten used to the free food, and then take that food away, you may find yourself getting attacked by angry birds wanting their free food.
    I think that is similar to what is going on here.

    Except there is a VERY large difference. The birds will still be getting free food, except that if they want access to even more food, then they have to pay for it. So the birds have to decide whether they can be content with the smaller amounts of food for free or willing to pay for access to the larger amount of food as well.
    In other words, ZOS has stated that all DLCs will remain free for subscribers but CHAPTERS will have to be paid for... as an ESO+ subscriber, I don't have a problem with this.

    I don't think your comment accurately describes Zubokos.

    The free food are specific examples such as the housing dlc, new dungeons added I and II versions and Craglorn update with One Tamriel. Then look at the amount of time which has passed where a subscription wasn't needed to access content due to a very long span of time without dlc.

    Taking the free food away then becomes equivalent to changing the terms of eso Plus for Morrowind to require payment for this upcoming add-on.

    The reaction mentioned comes about by means of this @ADarklore

    You're implying the someone has been here that long... and most of the arguments I've seen have not come from previous original release subscribers, they've come from players who came after B2P, subscribed, and are now complaining that CHAPTERS will have to be paid for when they believed all future DLCs would be free. Well, Morrowind is not a DLC, it is a Chapter that has it's own retail version and will not be available in the Crown Store like other true DLCs. There is a difference and those players don't like it and want to argue semantics instead of accepting what is and either live with it or move on.

    @ADarklore

    No I'm not implying anything. I'm just reading Zubokos comment and your response.

    Regardless of the use of words for add-on, dlc, chapter.....different terminology is not the cause of discontent with what we see in the forums or websites.

    It's literally not semantics it's a distinct required change in structure to access content so semantics isn't accurate or a way to mention people's situations.

    Zubokos comment that you responded to in which I quoted above, very accurately captures 2017 as a whole. It also involves a large portion of 2016 in terms of structure and the absence of paid content so the free example applies.

    If it's OK, I'm going to use your recent comment that the players haven't been here that long....

    This means for those new customers, who are either buying the gold edition or the base game and gold dlc via crowns as well as playing under a console options where one buys and few others share. Pc would only have base or base and gold considered.

    Of those, other than eso plus being for those other benefits, they haven't had any need to pay for anything else.

    What's important, those recent customers made decisions based upon the outlined structure which has drastically changed for them to require not only a chapter, dlc, add-on purchase but it creates uncertainty in the future as there's only ambiguous suggestions without details of if dlc for eso Plus will always come outside of a chapter.

    While there are some who may just want something for nothing, logically the complaint threads have very few of those of that opinion as free was never a model suggested

    ZOS has already stated that all DLC's will be included with ESO+, but Morrowind is NOT a DLC, it is a chapter; there will be one Chapter release per year which will require separate purchase. I think that is pretty straightforward and not ambiguous at all.

    Yes, their lawyers gave them an out by playing semantic games.

    In the future, they can change it to 2 DLC a year, 1 chapter, and 1 act. Because an act is clearly not a DLC. No ambiguity, right?

    Of course there is ambiguity. That is why they can move the goalposts. There is no ambiguity about what ESO+ means right now. We know what we can and cannot access right now. But there is incredible ambiguity about what it will mean in a year or two. Just as how they promised quarterly DLC access with ESO+ and changed it to 3 a year, they can change it to 2 a year. 6 month ago, ESO+ meant you would have access to ALL content in the game. They changed that.

    But if anyone was expecting 4 paid DLC/year, they haven't been watching. 5 quarters of DLC was great, but even before the 2 dungeons dropped there was a notable lack of hints at new paid DLC -- silence that was not the norm in the past.
  • Alpheu5
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    ADarklore wrote: »
    It's not about the money.

    It's about the lies.

    I think you take things far too seriously... there were no 'promises' or 'guarantees' and businesses are free to change their business model and businesses practices at any point in time, you agreed to it when you agreed to the TOS- did you not read it before agreeing?

    You are confusing "business practice" with "ethics". Having free speech does not entitle you to freely insult anyone you want.

    Same thing here. They may be allowed to change their business practice, but the way they did it is blatantly dishonest. I can go on for hours about this, but there have been plenty of points raised by many people who are irked by this.

    That is you OPINION that it was 'dishonest'... it isn't a fact, because I have a different opinion and believe what they did was fully acceptable and within their rights and TOS to do. Also, I think you just proved my point about taking things too seriously by feeling like I insulted you by making an interpretation of your statement.

    Since when did honesty become subjective?
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  • Ojustaboo
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    Ojustaboo wrote: »

    What happened was Zos told us that with the subscription, subscribers can expect exclusive dlc (dlc that non subscribers would have to pay for) approx every 3 months.

    By the time Morrowind releases, a whole year would have past without subscribers getting any.

    It really is as simple as that as to why most feel pissed off

    I fully expect to have to pay for an actual expansion, but it would have been nice if Zos had also given us what they originally promised.

    I did cancel my sub, not because I have to pay for a expansion, but because I didn't get what was promised (and this isn't the first time Zos has done this), however a few weeks without my crafting bag and I gave in and re-subbed :)

    You had Shadows of the Hist released in August 2016. While it may not have been content for ALL players, it still was a DLC release. Plus, we also received One Tamriel which took a ton of development time and the free Homestead update. So it's not like we didn't receive anything, it is just that some players didn't receive anything that applied to how they play the game. There is a difference between not receiving anything and not receiving anything you personally wanted to play.

    OK in a year you will have had one piece of DLC, One Tameriel doesn't count as it was free to all whether you subbed or not.

    We also had months of no content when Subs were mandatory and it turned out they had been working on the console release.

    I don't mind what they are now offering (and it looks like subscribers will get double the bank space too), had that been their initial offer, I would have happily subbed.

    What I don't like is companies saying if we pay xyz we will get abc and them constantly not delivering.

    Anyway I've re-subbed and am now over it, but I understand others who are not.
  • Alchemical
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    Well, Morrowind is not technically a DLC for those who buy the boxed retail version. It's only 'downloadable' for those that buy the digital version. So in that respect, there is a difference... it's not 'DLC' for all players.

    Expansion packs are a type of DLC. They predate modern DLC and the ability to reasonably digitally download content, but that does not change their function as 'additional paid content' which is the understood, if not literal, meaning of 'DLC'.

    Even if you buy a box, the box will consist of a key that merely 'activates' your right to enter the new areas. Surely every ESO player will be 'downloading' Morrowind, since the landmass will need to be patched in to everyone's client on release. Only the ones with keys will be able to access it, but it is still, technically, downloaded for everyone.
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  • NewBlacksmurf
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    BigBragg wrote: »
    I find is funny that some people think others want stuff for free, when it is quite the opposite. They want what they have paid for with the original terms of ESO+. ......(removed some of the reply)....But you know, I just want things for free.....

    @BigBragg

    Yeah, it's bothersome. I too pre ordered the Morrowind upgrade and use to subscribe but if so express logical discontent it seems I too want things for free.

    Guess I'm unable to want what was advertised and express discontent when the terms are changed every year.
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  • BigBragg
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    @NewBlacksmurf

    Exactly. I can still like a company or a person, while being verbally unhappy with an action they've taken. It is in fact because I like them and believe in what they are doing that I both subscribe and take the time to point out my disapproval.
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  • Asardes
    Asardes
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  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    I guess I more concerned about the people who can't see and understand what the people on the other side of this fairly simple issue think. It isn't rocket surgery.

    Not saying you have to agree with the other side, but to not even understand? Come on now, there can not be that many simpletons running around.
  • butternutbutt
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    This is an enormous, open world game, with a huge amount of content. I paid like $40 bucks for it eight months ago and I'm still playing it. Most games that offer 10-20 hours of play from start to finish cost that much and don't have anywhere near the amount of content. I don't mind at all paying a subscription and buying special items as long as I'm still interested in playing, (which at this point doesn't seem likely to end anytime soon) when I'm getting hours and hours of play and consistently getting new content. Things won't always be perfect and I understand that it's a massive undertaking to manage such a complex game.
  • DaveMoeDee
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    This is an enormous, open world game, with a huge amount of content. I paid like $40 bucks for it eight months ago and I'm still playing it. Most games that offer 10-20 hours of play from start to finish cost that much and don't have anywhere near the amount of content. I don't mind at all paying a subscription and buying special items as long as I'm still interested in playing, (which at this point doesn't seem likely to end anytime soon) when I'm getting hours and hours of play and consistently getting new content. Things won't always be perfect and I understand that it's a massive undertaking to manage such a complex game.

    I think the point is that people who have subs paid $120 over those 8 months just replay the same content over and over.

    This gave is an amazing value for the $20 gold sale price right now (on GMG) or for the $10 vanilla on steam/zos. That in no way addresses the complaints about those who have been loyal ESO+ subscribers.
  • DaveMoeDee
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    MadLarkin wrote: »
    ...
    Let me be clear. I would have had no problem paying for an expansion and may have even bought their explanation that Morrowind is so much bigger than standard DLC and that's why they need to charge separately for it. However, everything else they've done recently instead indicated to me that their semantic shell game was purely to squeeze as much money out of everyone as possible. For instance...

    "Charging extra because it is so large" is marketing speak for the reality that they tried to make it larger to justify charging separately.
  • butternutbutt
    butternutbutt
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    DaveMoeDee wrote: »
    This is an enormous, open world game, with a huge amount of content. I paid like $40 bucks for it eight months ago and I'm still playing it. Most games that offer 10-20 hours of play from start to finish cost that much and don't have anywhere near the amount of content. I don't mind at all paying a subscription and buying special items as long as I'm still interested in playing, (which at this point doesn't seem likely to end anytime soon) when I'm getting hours and hours of play and consistently getting new content. Things won't always be perfect and I understand that it's a massive undertaking to manage such a complex game.

    I think the point is that people who have subs paid $120 over those 8 months just replay the same content over and over.

    This gave is an amazing value for the $20 gold sale price right now (on GMG) or for the $10 vanilla on steam/zos. That in no way addresses the complaints about those who have been loyal ESO+ subscribers.

    I can't address the feelings of people who've been playing longer than me and I get what people are saying about the changes, but I am a subscriber and what I'm saying is I feel I'm getting my money's worth. How many hours of gameplay did you get for that $120? Myself, prob over a thousand, and I still have lots left to do. This is my first MMO but If I had been playing other games I would've probably spent twice that much at least for that amount of play. I'm just offering a perspective it doesn't seem like many are taking into account. Based on that, I think it's reasonable for a company to do what ZOS is doing; trying to offer a great game for a reasonable cost and make a reasonable profit after paying the salaries of all the people working hard to make it possible. We get a lot of perks for subscribing and I think the value is there.
    Edited by butternutbutt on April 11, 2017 5:57PM
  • jircris11
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    Alchemical wrote: »
    Subscribing is not a big deal to me. Buying an expansion pack in addition to subscribing isn't that big a deal either. But I'm the kinda psycho who spent a decade playing WoW and invested thousands of dollars in my account.

    To me the big debate seems to be about semantics. Because expansion packs are DLC despite what anyone tries to say. Personally it seems obvious major expansions would be excluded from the sub system, since it includes multiple new areas and a swathe of new content (including an entire class) as opposed to a singular zone and skill line as with previous DLCs, which would be prohibitively expensive to distribute for free. But it does go against the most literal interpretation of the ESO+ subscription, which grants access to 'all' DLC.

    I do find Morrowind's starting price of $60 extremely offensive. Expansion packs usually do not cost the same as a brand new game, since they depend on another game to function. Maybe if they gave subscribers a $15 discount on expansions, as a sign of good faith for their ongoing support, people would be a little less miffed. I know I'm sure as heck not paying full brand new video game retail for DLC.

    Actually if you look at wow each new pack was 60-80 bucks, the fact that we only pay 40-60 to add it to an account is nice. And buying it new gives you the game+exp.
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  • Wrekkedd
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    Agreed
  • Rhoric
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    Morrowind is not a DLC so get with it or don't. But it is not gonna change the fact that it is an expansion. There is nothing in ESO+ that you get expansions for free.
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  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Rhoric wrote: »
    Morrowind is not a DLC so get with it or don't. But it is not gonna change the fact that it is an expansion. There is nothing in ESO+ that you get expansions for free.

    So if ZOS took all the previously planned DLCs (like clockwork city), that they have identified in previous videos as DLCs, and renamed them to "expansions" in order to get people to pay more for them, you wouldn't have a problem with that?
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  • Cpt_Teemo
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    Lythandra wrote: »
    I don't mind paying a subscription fee if the game is working well and is also well balanced.

    I don't find the game to be working well in end game and it is badly balanced there as well.

    They want it all. You buy the game, then subscription fee and then micro/macro transactions.


    To be fair they also give back your 15$ a month by giving you 1500 crowns a month then basically the other stuff is free
  • Rhoric
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    You should go learn the difference between expansion and dlc first.
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  • SnubbS
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    I don't really care about Zo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ *** me over—changing the language due to estimated outrage, calling Morrowind a "Chapter" instead of a "DLC" even though 'DLC' applies to Morrowind, as well as the prior language. No real issue with that—the issue I have is that I'm $40 for an expansion that is 100% going to be broken upon its release.

    Can we get a #YouKnowYouDontHaveToBeHereRight?
    Edited by SnubbS on April 11, 2017 6:20PM
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  • Zuboko
    Zuboko
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    Zuboko wrote: »
    If you put a bird feeder out to give the birds in the area free food, then wait until the birds have gotten used to the free food, and then take that food away, you may find yourself getting attacked by angry birds wanting their free food.
    I think that is similar to what is going on here.

    Except there is a VERY large difference. The birds will still be getting free food, except that if they want access to even more food, then they have to pay for it. So the birds have to decide whether they can be content with the smaller amounts of food for free or willing to pay for access to the larger amount of food as well.
    In other words, ZOS has stated that all DLCs will remain free for subscribers but CHAPTERS will have to be paid for... as an ESO+ subscriber, I don't have a problem with this.

    The work the birds put into gathering the food is what they pay for it. The bird feeder allows them to completely bypass the work they would otherwise do. The analogy is meant to apply to those who are complaining. If you are fine with it (like I am) then the analogy does not apply to you.
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