I'm Confused by Resistance to Subscription/Expansion Costs

Mx13

BigBragg wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

The base game is like $7, a subscription service is normal for a mmo.


As for morrowind, the problem with having it with ESO Plus it Warden. What happens if you lose ESO Plus, will you be able to play the Warden or will your character be locked until you get ESO Plus again?

Secondly, It seems that ZOS wants "new money" from Morrowind like most companies do with expansions. ESO Plus gets 3 DLC a year and has to buy 1 Expansion a year, im fine with that

It will only be two DLC per year. New yearly model will be one base game patch like One Tamriel and Homestead, one chapter, one DLC zone, and then two DLC dungeons.

*

A new content Cadence

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

BigBragg

Mx13 wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

The base game is like $7, a subscription service is normal for a mmo.


As for morrowind, the problem with having it with ESO Plus it Warden. What happens if you lose ESO Plus, will you be able to play the Warden or will your character be locked until you get ESO Plus again?

Secondly, It seems that ZOS wants "new money" from Morrowind like most companies do with expansions. ESO Plus gets 3 DLC a year and has to buy 1 Expansion a year, im fine with that

It will only be two DLC per year. New yearly model will be one base game patch like One Tamriel and Homestead, one chapter, one DLC zone, and then two DLC dungeons.

*

A new content Cadence

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

If I recall correctly, that was where they called Homestead a DLC, even though it was a base game patch and open to everyone. That is what I was getting at in terms of only two specific to ESO+ members receiving as a benefit.

Elsonso

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

The difference is that ZOS set expectations that the sub would get you access to 4 DLC a year. Instead, they inflated this one a little extra and called it a "chapter" so that the $45 in subs for that quarter would not help gain access to a new DLC.

That's the funny part. They didn't inflate it a little extra and rename it "chapter" so they could sell it. You are making it sound like Morrowind is just a bigger Orsinium, and it ain't that. Maybe that is all you care about, but it is more than that.

For the last three years, we have had a lot of base game updates that have been at no extra charge. No DLC purchase required. No ESO Plus required. Included in the original purchase price.

Morrowind is filled with what used to be considered base game updates. Last year, the Warden class would have been a base game update. Except for Imperial City, new PVP features have been added to the base game. Now they are asking us to pay for features of a type that we used to get at no extra charge.

That is why this is an expansion. They didn't change it from "DLC" to "Chapter" because it isn't even like any of the DLC for this game. Morrowind is loaded with base game updates that we have to pay for. They renamed "expansion" to "chapter", just like they said.

Oh yeah, and it includes Vvardenfell, the only part of the larger Chapter that even resembles a DLC.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Instead, the subber would have to spend $40 more.

Everyone is being asked to buy the game again. For the first time since March 2015, people who are not ESO Plus are being asked to pay for content that they used to get at no additional charge. Half of the Chapter isn't even content that would have been covered by ESO Plus in the first place. That new content used to be part of the original purchase, not ESO Plus, and now people have to pay for it.

Why? Because Morrowind is an expansion to the ESO base game, not an ESO DLC.

MissBizz

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

Lonestryder

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

...until there isn't. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

MissBizz

Lonestryder wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

...until there isn't. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

Something tells me they will stick to charging everyone for content better than they delivered "free" content

Asardes

Well, that's why I prefer paying upfront for every product I know I will be using a lot, and not simply renting it. I didn't join ESO while it was subscription based although I was part of the Beta, for the same reason I didn't join other MMOs before - I considered it a waste of money. Since I joined I never subbed because I knew in the long run the subscription will add to a lot more money than I payed upfront. My total expenses on this game thus far have been in the range of $150, including Morrowind. That's less than a year of subbing. I've played for a year and a half. I would have spent $150-200 (I didn't buy all DLCs from the start, so it would only amount to a part time subscription) in order to rent something I bought upfront for half that, subtracting the $60 for Morrowind I would have payed regardless. I've already completed my research, I'm well past the CP cap, I can manage my inventory just fine without craft bag because I always sell the extra mats on guild stores, and I don't enjoy the fluff that can be bought for crowns from the subscription allowance - I only buy DLCs and character slots.

MLGProPlayer

MissBizz wrote: »

Lonestryder wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

...until there isn't. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

Something tells me they will stick to charging everyone for content better than they delivered "free" content

The DLC were never free though. They were included in a sub ($15/month) or as stand-alone purchases of $20-30. That's a substantial intake of revenue.

This current model lets them rake in even more money (assuming they are able to retain enough subs, which they probably are). But it's not like they were strapped for cash before the change.

MLGProPlayer

lordrichter wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

The difference is that ZOS set expectations that the sub would get you access to 4 DLC a year. Instead, they inflated this one a little extra and called it a "chapter" so that the $45 in subs for that quarter would not help gain access to a new DLC.

That's the funny part. They didn't inflate it a little extra and rename it "chapter" so they could sell it. You are making it sound like Morrowind is just a bigger Orsinium, and it ain't that. Maybe that is all you care about, but it is more than that.

But it kind of is.

Orsinium:
20 hours of overland content
Solo trial

Morrowind:
30 hours of overland content
Group trial
New class

For the last three years, we have had a lot of base game updates that have been at no extra charge. No DLC purchase required. No ESO Plus required. Included in the original purchase price.

That's part of the problem. A lot of players were subbing with the expectation that they would recieve paid DLC content every quarter. Instead, they will have gone 12 months without a single explorable DLC zone added to the game (the only DLC in that span added 2 dungeons to the game). You don't need to sub for "free" updates, nor do these updates provide any overland content.

Elsonso

MissBizz wrote: »

Lonestryder wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

...until there isn't. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

Something tells me they will stick to charging everyone for content better than they delivered "free" content

Yup. I expect that they will now be holding all the free stuff we used to get all through the year and delivering it once per year, in a Chapter. I would. There is more incentive for them to do it this way, with Chapters, than there ever was without it.

Asardes wrote: »

Well, that's why I prefer paying upfront for every product I know I will be using a lot, and not simply renting it. I didn't join ESO while it was subscription based although I was part of the Beta, for the same reason I didn't join other MMOs before - I considered it a waste of money. Since I joined I never subbed because I knew in the long run the subscription will add to a lot more money than I payed upfront. My total expenses on this game thus far have been in the range of $150, including Morrowind. That's less than a year of subbing. I've played for a year and a half. I would have spent $150-200 (I didn't buy all DLCs from the start, so it would only amount to a part time subscription) in order to rent something I bought upfront for half that, subtracting the $60 for Morrowind I would have payed regardless. I've already completed my research, I'm well past the CP cap, I can manage my inventory just fine without craft bag because I always sell the extra mats on guild stores, and I don't enjoy the fluff that can be bought for crowns from the subscription allowance - I only buy DLCs and character slots.

Buy vs Rent really isn't an issue, unless that *is* your issue.

The key is to spend for now. Pay for what you are getting, not for what you expect to get months or years from now. With subscriptions and the "DLC rental", you are paying for what you are getting for the term of the subscription, and not one second past that.

Don't treat ESO, or any game, like an investment. You pay your money and get what you paid for, that day.

Want ESO Plus? That is not about investing as much as it is about confidence. You buy the term that best fits your nervousness about what might change between the time the subscription is purchased, and the time it ends. Too long of a subscription term, and too much change during that term, could be too much for comfort. Buy shorter. That ESO Plus subscription ends in 30, 90, or 180 days, and with it, any expectations you had about where ESO was going at the beginning of the term. New subscription, new expectations, new confidence level.

Buying Crowns? Ideally, you only buy Crowns to pick up what they are selling in the store right now, so that you can buy it right now. The idea of "stocking up" and having a supply at hand, is nice, but they can change up the store at any time and make those Crowns worth more, or less, than what was paid. If buying Crowns to have on hand, it is best to not have any firm expectations on what items will cost, what will be in the Crates, or even in the Store. Keep in mind that the more Crowns that they see in the hands of players, just sitting there waiting, the better the possibility that they will increase prices to help pull down that reserve.

Asardes

Well, that's just how my mind works, I can't help it. Cost/benefit analysis simply comes as something natural. For example I want to use my in game time more efficiently, hence I joined a PvE guild where the chances of running the daily pledges swiftly increases it's keys & gear vs. time spent getting them. I was also able to run content I couldn't PuG before, like veteran trials, which offer new challenges and gear. I also don't keep extra materials because the opportunity costs of doing so are far outweighed by the potential gains in selling those on guild stores, because money takes no inventory space and can be converted to more useful items in time. I'm stingy when it comes to in game resources as well. I rarely gold anything unless I'm certain that it's BiS or within a few percent of that for the specific role. I haven't bought any houses though I have enough money to buy 3/4 of them, because they offer no utility, primarily storage, which is my main problem, not due to materials, but gear. I see my little gaming "empire" as a well oiled assembly line which can deliver consistently and predictably. If I'm that conscious about fictitious resources, like gold tempers, "gold" or skills, why should I be less so when it comes to real, IRL, cash?

ljb2k5_ESO

I definitely don't expect ZOS to work for free, the only thing I think they should work to prevent happening is avoid fracturing the player base and too much P2W. Avoid those two things, and we're good as far as I am concerned.

MissBizz

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Lonestryder wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

...until there isn't. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

Something tells me they will stick to charging everyone for content better than they delivered "free" content

The DLC were never free though. They were included in a sub ($15/month) or as stand-alone purchases of $20-30. That's a substantial intake of revenue.

This current model lets them rake in even more money (assuming they are able to retain enough subs, which they probably are). But it's not like they were strapped for cash before the change.

@MLGProPlayer Exactly why I put quotations. The large patches that replaced DLC's were free though. Free was a bad choice of word but I meant this... comparing releasing Orsinium vs Morrowind, Orsinium was included (did not include any EXTRA money above your regular payment for subs) vs Paid (no matter what, Morrowind is paid)

greylox

Op wins, no valid arguments to the contrary.

Some of the ways you lot are arguing though are hilarious and deluded.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Lonestryder wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Espica wrote: »

The main difference is the new Warden class. That's exactly what makes it different from the other DLCs.
That's why Im OK paying for it.

On the other hand, maybe I could access the new zone but not play as a Warden if I have ESO+

Let's see how often they will start to release the next Chapters, if they do every 16 or 24 months it'll be fine IMO, but if they do it once a year...

Guys should we tell him?

We should tell him...

*ehem* @Espica within days of announcing Morrowind, Zos put an article on the ESO website and this is a piece of it....

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter

There will be a new, paid, chapter... every 12 months.

...until there isn't. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

We should really guess what the next business model will be. They never seem to be satisfied with the money they are getting so, as much as I really hope this is not true, I am predicting some sort of "freemium" weird hybrid system where PARTS of the game are completely free to play, but extremely limited (you can go to main cities), and there are progressive pay gates after that.

They will use this system for a year, then re-calibrate again and do something even more pay-gate intensive.

PlagueSD

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Subscription is a "pay to pay" system. You get nothing more than inventory and costume dyeing, morrowind is behind another paywall.

We also get an "allowance" of crowns to spend in the crown store, and unlimited storage crafting bag. For us, the DLC was easily purchased using our allowance, so the DLCs were seen as "free" for paying subscribers. Major updates (read: expansions) I have no issue paying for.

Alchemical wrote: »

I do find Morrowind's starting price of $60 extremely offensive. Expansion packs usually do not cost the same as a brand new game, since they depend on another game to function. Maybe if they gave subscribers a $15 discount on expansions, as a sign of good faith for their ongoing support, people would be a little less miffed. I know I'm sure as heck not paying full brand new video game retail for DLC.

Looking back at Everquest's expansions at $40 each and taking into account inflation, $60 seems reasonable. Also, if I don't have the game and I can just buy Morrowind and have access to the full ESO game, then yes, worth the price.

From the Morrowind site:
"Embark on a journey through legendary locales, from volcanic ashlands to mushroom-filled forests. Includes the first game of the series."

Wreuntzylla

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Why do commenters talk about F2P and not wanting to pay for games when talking about people who have been loyally subbing for $15/month with little benefit?

Another useless response is talking about TOS. The debate is not about legality (though details of many TOS are often illegal is some localities). It is about ethics and misleading statements and semantics games carefully crafted by lawyers to reneg on promises.

I personally feel that ZOS future model is completely reasonable. I also feel there was a bait and switch. Then again, I always thought a renewing sub post B2P was a horrible deal.

The OP is wrong about both business and law. And yes, the ToS is relevant. Just not in the way people seem to think.

Eshelmen wrote: »

Corporations can change up their structure as much as they please. It's getting everyone on board with their new policies that's the issue.

Nothing lasts forever.

No they can't. Unless... are you from Zimbabwe?

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Rhoric wrote: »

You should go learn the difference between expansion and dlc first.

DLC literally means downloadable content.

If it's downloadable and content, its DLC. But I think these are the definitions you are looking for.

DLC: An expansion to the game that ZOS allows you to access while subscribed to ESO plus
Expansion: A DLC retroactively renamed to a "chapter" so that ZOS can sell it separately and avoid any legal or moral liability for previous promises.

Hope that clears it up for you

Yes on one hand they follow the expansion tradition from other MMO
Check: New area, on disc, new class, new pvp mode.
However Morrowind looks a bit small in content I agree here.

However I think the real reason is twofold: First they know most eso+ players will buy Morrowind anyway, yes it will cost some eso+ subscribers but they can add other perks to compensate.
Second many who play eso on and off will simply buy one month eso+, play trough morrowind and be done with it.
Raising an question that would happen if they have an warden.

No one is arguing that this isnt a good business decision. Just that it is immoral and unethical in the way it was done. If those two things count for anything. But I guess if you are making money, you don't need morality right? Overbook your plane? Thats ok. Money. Beat up a paying customer. That's fine, as long as you are making money you have no obligations or need to keep your promises.

Good business decision? Maybe. Immoral and unethical? Probably. Legal? Unlikely. The relationship here is not between two commercial entities but rather between a commercial entity and consumers. It implicates at least consumer protection and contract law (as it relates to consumers). Under those categories, I can think of a couple dozen problems with what ZoS has done.

Does it matter? Probably not. Due to the small amount of money involved, to spank ZoS for this would require people acting as a matter of principle, and let's face it, although many of us feel we were misled, taken advantage of and treated unfairly, it does not rise to the level of bad that would make folks take up their torches and pitchforks.


[Edit to remove insulting content]

Balamoor

What I find hilarious are the armchair lawyers and moralist trying to tell us that we are participating in a immoral and possibly illegal activity by supporting a game as we choose to.

It's good to see the mods having little to no patience for the shaming though.

Wreuntzylla

Balamoor wrote: »

What I find hilarious are the armchair lawyers and moralist trying to tell us that we are participating in a immoral and possibly illegal activity by supporting a game as we choose to.

It's good to see the mods having little to no patience for the shaming though.

Huh? Who said that?

Rhoric

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Rhoric wrote: »

You should go learn the difference between expansion and dlc first.

DLC literally means downloadable content.

If it's downloadable and content, its DLC. But I think these are the definitions you are looking for.

DLC: An expansion to the game that ZOS allows you to access while subscribed to ESO plus
Expansion: A DLC retroactively renamed to a "chapter" so that ZOS can sell it separately and avoid any legal or moral liability for previous promises.

Hope that clears it up for you

SnubbS wrote: »

Can we get a #YouKnowYouDontHaveToBeHereRight?

Can we get a #YouKnowYouDontHaveToStructureYourGameLikeAFreemiumMobileApp

Hope this clears it up for you on what an expansion really is.

DLC = Generally a small addition to a game. Fairly cheap.

Expansion = A large addition to the game, usually as big or nearly as big as the main game. Sometimes they are even standalone.

Go read this if you want.

http://www.learntocounter.com/why-expansion-packs-are-superior-to-dlc/

Balamoor

Rhoric wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Rhoric wrote: »

You should go learn the difference between expansion and dlc first.

DLC literally means downloadable content.

If it's downloadable and content, its DLC. But I think these are the definitions you are looking for.

DLC: An expansion to the game that ZOS allows you to access while subscribed to ESO plus
Expansion: A DLC retroactively renamed to a "chapter" so that ZOS can sell it separately and avoid any legal or moral liability for previous promises.

Hope that clears it up for you

SnubbS wrote: »

Can we get a #YouKnowYouDontHaveToBeHereRight?

Can we get a #YouKnowYouDontHaveToStructureYourGameLikeAFreemiumMobileApp

Hope this clears it up for you on what an expansion really is.

DLC = Generally a small addition to a game. Fairly cheap.

Expansion = A large addition to the game, usually as big or nearly as big as the main game. Sometimes they are even standalone.

Go read this if you want.

http://www.learntocounter.com/why-expansion-packs-are-superior-to-dlc/

Yeah no matter how horsey ducky you explain things.....a few on this forum will wail about how corrupt ZoS is and how they lied to all of us. Is it ridiculous. yeah...but welcome to the age of the perpetually outraged.

I think it's best to just let them wail it out.....no one is changing their mind and the mods are handling the insults really well.

JimT722

I would gladly subscribe and purchase expansions. In this game, nearly everything that is very cool is obtained through "micro" transactions. In the games current state I find it difficult to do either.

DoccEff

Yeah, Zos defenitly needs more people to white-knight for them in the forums...

I'm so tired of this [snip]. It's not the first time that Zos lied us straight in the face. However there are still some people who feel the need to rather defend the interests of a profit-oriented company than the ones of the costumers (us!).
This thread is completely pointless since everything about this topic has been said.

Just once more, it's not about the money, it's about ZO$ getting through with lies. And since so many don't give a **** where their money goes, everything will go on like this.

[Edit for profanity]

Minno

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

As long as this misunderstanding keeps popping up, I am going to keep posting this. This is my my complete and total answer analyzing all the factors involved that I compiled from a few previous posts with all evidence included. Hopefully this will demonstrate that is not a resistance to costs, its about morality and principle. It's a bit of a read, but it's worth it. Allow me to explain.

DLC vs Expansion:
Morrowind is about twice the size (in landmass) of previous DLCs and about 1.5x as long of a storyline as Wrothgar (30hrs vs 20). So its about the size two wrothgars. People would't mind paying twice the Wrothgar price in crowns (6000 vs 3000) for Morrowind and subscribers wouldn't mind waiting two quarters (with no DLC) for its release instead of the usual 4 DLCs per year they were expecting because that's what they were told to expect.

But for subscribers, it stings a little bit that ZOS is changing their business model again, (and not really admitting they have changed anything) while also playing fast and loose with the definition of DLC vs "chapter." If you compare the substantial difference between morrowind and previous expansions like wrothgar, they look pretty similar. Both add landmass and new gameplay styles (like Maelstrom, trials, etc) and only differ in size so the semantics argument of "Expansion vs DLC" isn't that compelling. Also, the warden isn't a completely new concept, it was a class cut out of early beta in 2013.

Change in Business Model
So it feels to a lot of subscribers that something they already pay for, (and monetarily helped develop) is being stripped out of the business model and sold back to them as something different (bundled with a few other things ZOS had lying around), when it really isn't that much different. Here is an example:

If I was a magazine company, and I sold you a yearly subscription that gave you 12 magazines per year at $40 per year, then for the next year, still charged $40 but only delivered 10 magazines, but also produced a double sized "Booklet" with a holographic cover that I sold separately for $20, you would feel a bit ripped off. Explaining that the "Booklet" isn't a magazine because its twice the size and has a fancy holographic cover wouldn't be a compelling explanation. Better I just admit I changed the business model and selling 12 magazines for $40 just didn't cut it for me so I would rather you pay $60 per year for the same amount of content just bundled differently.

The real reason people are upset
Most subscribers are die-hard fans of this game and would appreciate the honesty and gladly shell out the extra money for Morrowind if ZOS just admitted they made a mistake and needed to change the model again. But instead, they pretend nothing has changed and we are given semantic word acrobatics and an unnecessary physical release of morrowind complete with a silly statue just to dance around the fact that this is really a DLC which literally means "Downloadable Content." Very few people buy physical game copies anymore. Making Morrowind a physical distribution seems like a completely bizarre business move unless you realize that ZOS already told subscribers they would have access to ALL DLC. Oops. Better crank out a special addition with a shiny statue. Shiny objects will distract them, won't they?

Back when "Tamriel Unlimited" Launched, Pete Hines said something to the effect of "Just subscribe and you won't EVER have to worry about purchasing new content. Subscriber's will be taken care of." If you don't believe me, you can watch it HERE. That's what subscribers were expecting for the foreseeable future so it is no surprise people are a little upset that this was changed with very little communication, sympathy, or appreciation for current subscribers and what they have done to help fund the game.

Now lets get some preemptive arguments out of the way:

• Yes, ZOS can change their mind or business model at any time. They are not legally obligated to deliver anything they promise. Unlike almost every other industry that is held to external standards of ethics and quality from Movie Theaters to Vegas Casinos, the videogame industry is still in the regulatory wild west and can anything it wants to its customers - even unregulated gambling. But should they still voluntarily follow some ethical guidelines? I think so. This argument is a moral argument, not a legal one.
• Yes, Zenimax is a business and business's are designed to make money. Since we don't know their financial situation, this is irrelevant as this has NOTHING to do with the amount of money their are charging and everything to do with ZOS not sticking to their word and their PERCEIVED promises.
• Yes, other MMOs do offer DLC and charge extra for expansions but the expansions are usually so much bigger and game changing than morrowind will be and usually continue the main storyline which AFAIK, morrowind will not.

So the issue that many subscribers have is three fold.

• ZOS isn't admitting (in a straightforward way) that they changed their business model again, and they are breaking their promise to subscribers (of delivering 1 DLC every quarter) and pulling Morrowind out of that subscription model by using a semantic technicality.
• ZOS isn't admitting that the Value of a subscription is decreasing as they have changed from 4 DLCs/year to 3DLCs and 1 "bigger DLC you have to buy separately" per year.
• Also the cost of items in the crown store (motifs) and mounts have kept creeping up although ZOS has said originally, (when Tamriel Unlimited came out) that subscribers would have more than enough of a crown stipend to fully enjoy the crown store. On top of that, there are now exclusive items you cant even get with crowns unless you gamble, which is just more price creep.

TL;DR: The bottom line is that the value of being a subscriber was slowly decreasing and Morrowind being published somewhat arbitrarily outside of the subscription model is a final straw for some that is getting them to re-evaluate the benefits of subscribing.

Just remember that ESO subscription money helped fund the Morrowind DLC.

Just a quick business rundown:
- Most of the protective measures other industries enjoy come down to contractual obligations. A binding legal document signed​ and agreed by two parties is what makes those protective measures have teeth.
- I'm a consumer in this relationship with ZoS. They literally can do anything they want to what they provide as a product. But we can choose the best value as a consumer and let others know why this product is not worth certain money.
- in my field (lighting design), we don't have consumers, we have clients (or patrons.). They pay us for services rendered, and ultimately we are bound by moral/ethical and sometimes strict rules to them. If the client wants a room that's gold with red lightsabers for lighting, you damn well know I'm going to give them what they ask for. But within legal limits as set forth by municipality codes, meaning I still have to prove my design provides minimal egress lighting for emergencies, so people can see what they are doing, and provide the best value for their money (can't spend what a client doesn't have.)
- the contract protects us too. If we all agree I'm too provide a set of documents proving a lighting design, but half through the process the clients start demanding I give them free lighting advice/designs in places in not contracted to provide, you bet your shiny-hinney I'm going to tell them I didn't sign up for that.
- the contract also states how I'll be paid. Typically it's split between document issuances so that we can get paid for services provided and lock the client out of future updates if they don't pay us.

Just my two cents. Regardless it sounds like financially, subbing will no longer make sense for us consumers as the cost exceeds the benefits.

MLGProPlayer

Balamoor wrote: »

What I find hilarious are the armchair lawyers and moralist trying to tell us that we are participating in a immoral and possibly illegal activity by supporting a game as we choose to.

It's good to see the mods having little to no patience for the shaming though.

You can support the game but also argue against underhanded business practices.

I pre-ordered the collector's edition, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the way ZOS conducts themselves.

I never understood the phenomenon of voluntary corporate shilling. You can be a fan of a product without being a fan of the business producing the product.

Dragonking06

Here we go again... I'll get the buckets of water, you put dirt on the embers...

On a more serious note, I don't get why people are flipping out so much either. It's going to be an expansion, one that we'll have to pay for. Going by that logic, Morrowind's content is going to be massive, (hopefully). Full of quests, story, Trials, Dungeons and other content. Yes all of those sort of things are present in the regular DLC's. (Excluding a new class). But if the scale of MW's content dwarf's that of Wrothgar, I think they're right to label it as an expansion, and therefore charge a fee for it. I asked a friend of mine if this kind of *** happens every time WoW announces a new expansion and to my surprise it does. I guess some people will just skew things the way they want to see them, and carry on expecting money to magically appear out of thin air to support a game they want to play.

MLGProPlayer

Dragonking06 wrote: »

Here we go again... I'll get the buckets of water, you put dirt on the embers...

On a more serious note, I don't get why people are flipping out so much either. It's going to be an expansion, one that we'll have to pay for. Going by that logic, Morrowind's content is going to be massive, (hopefully). Full of quests, story, Trials, Dungeons and other content. Yes all of those sort of things are present in the regular DLC's. (Excluding a new class). But if the scale of MW's content dwarf's that of Wrothgar, I think they're right to label it as an expansion, and therefore charge a fee for it. I asked a friend of mine if this kind of *** happens every time WoW announces a new expansion and to my surprise it does. I guess some people will just skew things the way they want to see them, and carry on expecting money to magically appear out of thin air to support a game they want to play.

By ZOS' own admission, Morrowind will only have 10 more hours of overland content than Orsinium.

Now obviously that number doesn't take replayability into account, but neither did Orsinium's estimate.

sadownik

@Dragonking06 we know already that Morrowind apart of new class is similar to Orsinium - 30 h of story compared to 25 in Orsinium. So what sets Morrwind so far apart that it needs to be monetized so heavily?

Dragonking06

Who *** cares?! If you don't like it. Don't buy it. Problem solved.

Duiwel

All you cry babies make me laugh