I'm Confused by Resistance to Subscription/Expansion Costs

Balamoor

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

What I find hilarious are the armchair lawyers and moralist trying to tell us that we are participating in a immoral and possibly illegal activity by supporting a game as we choose to.

It's good to see the mods having little to no patience for the shaming though.

You can support the game but also argue against underhanded business practices.

I pre-ordered the collector's edition, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the way ZOS conducts themselves.

I never understood the phenomenon of voluntary corporate shilling. You can be a fan of a product without being a fan of the business producing the product.

You know I don't disagree with you. The problem is that not everyone agrees that their Business practices are underhanded, I understand that anyone disagreeing with the moral authority of the forums is inconceivable to some, but most people with actual life experience find that it happens quite often though.

What I also find disingenuous is the walk of shame that some Bullies on this forum and in game put other players through for participating in ZoS business practices and dare I say enjoying the benefits of doing so. This has caused people to stop visiting the forums and even playing the game. This conform or else tactic got so bad it caught the eye of the GM's and mods, who are starting (finally) to hand down consequences over it.

Finally I have no problem with dissent, I do have a problem with idiots who keep shoving food down their throats while screaming to the chef that it sucks and she's a crook, and so would any other rational human being.

Rickter

I read your post @Yolokin_Swagonborn (the one you have in your signature ((mission accomplished!)) ) and I have to agree. I was not aware ZOS cut down to 3 DLCs per year and i was not aware ZOS stated mounts would be around the 900-1300 range.

I have been very disillusioned at the crown store pricings as of late (6k for celestial motif?) ((4500 for the elk??!)) absolutely outrageous prices.

So it hurts a little more to see that DLCs will be pushed out less frequently and we still have to purchase chapters. A lot of these things were in development for years too, such as the warden and clockwork city. I also feel like the content is becoming increasing meaningless for a story stand point as nothing happening in the game alludes or ties into the TES titles we know and love. Its feeling increasingly like ESO is an alternate universe and the devs are just producing content with background rooted in lore but not actually affecting the lore any longer. (sorry @Lawrence_Schick )

One thing I want to add to my general agreeance with you, Yolo: I do think alot of these decisions are out of ZOS' hands. Things like, "oh hey we are charging this in the Crown store" and "lets cut back on DLCs and add chapter paid xpaks" - I truly think thats the parent company pushing that agenda. I think ZMInc has finally witnessed how lucrative ESO is and they are capitalizing on the players willing to pay a sub AND shell out thousands on crowns. because trust me, it is thousands.

drakhan2002_ESO

Zuboko wrote: »

If you put a bird feeder out to give the birds in the area free food, then wait until the birds have gotten used to the free food, and then take that food away, you may find yourself getting attacked by angry birds wanting their free food.
I think that is similar to what is going on here.

Unfortunately, those same birds often crap all over the place too...making a huge mess to clean up - any similarities? hmm?

D0m0suka

I have been p,laying this game since before this game hit the market. I have enjoyed it thoroughly, and have been happy paying a subscription ever since. It amounts to a huge amount of money I have spent, but have had no regrets, even in times of less than optimal release dates on new content. I get that ZOS wants to change its business model, but that is not my problem. It is about entitlement, because as a consumer I was entitled to certain criteria when I began playing. Namely promises that all DLC will be available to anyone who pays. Accessing the DLC areas is removed when you stop subscribing, and I believe this is a perfectly reasonable expectation. Now, the model is DLC (which in euphemistic terms is now called "chapters") is purchasing. I pay a subscription because I believe the game is a good one, and am still willing to do so, the craft bag and other features are very nice. However, that said, I do not believe there should be another pay wall to get access to DLC that subscribers were promised. I believe you should be able to at least pay for the "chapter" with crowns. Crown crates are also a greedy way to extort cash. One does not get what they paid for in either case, and I think people do have a right to be upset about it. I have paid over the years 2,000 dollars. I am not asking for "free" things, I am asking to get what I have been paying for all this time.

D0m0suka

Alchemical wrote: »

Subscribing is not a big deal to me. Buying an expansion pack in addition to subscribing isn't that big a deal either. But I'm the kinda psycho who spent a decade playing WoW and invested thousands of dollars in my account.

To me the big debate seems to be about semantics. Because expansion packs are DLC despite what anyone tries to say. Personally it seems obvious major expansions would be excluded from the sub system, since it includes multiple new areas and a swathe of new content (including an entire class) as opposed to a singular zone and skill line as with previous DLCs, which would be prohibitively expensive to distribute for free. But it does go against the most literal interpretation of the ESO+ subscription, which grants access to 'all' DLC.

I do find Morrowind's starting price of $60 extremely offensive. Expansion packs usually do not cost the same as a brand new game, since they depend on another game to function. Maybe if they gave subscribers a $15 discount on expansions, as a sign of good faith for their ongoing support, people would be a little less miffed. I know I'm sure as heck not paying full brand new video game retail for DLC.

Not to mention the "chapter" is not nearly as involved as the original game was to release! Also, new major expansions were included in the subscription before, or purchasable with crowns, and to change that and hide it with the new title "chapter" is underhanded at the very least.

DieAlteHexe

Rainwhisper wrote: »

I've been following several of the threads about Morrowind and about ESO Plus, some of which invariably come back to a claim that Morrowind should be treated as DLC, and others which make "pay-to-win" arguments.

As someone who has paid a monthly subscription fee for every MMO I've ever played, dating back to Ultima Online, I'm perplexed by just how much content people seem to expect to get for free. Likewise, I've always had to pay for expansions, and doing so always made sense to me. I recognize that server upkeep and customer service costs alone justify a subscription fee, much less the additional creative content and ongoing development work, including balancing. The massive content additions of an expansion, likewise, also require a significant financial outlay for art, writing, programming, area design, voice acting, etc.

Which prompts my question: What is the source of the expectation that a massive, virtual world (as opposed to an FPS arena environment like Overwatch) should be free?

I enjoy playing the game, and I recognize that the experience I enjoy costs money to create and maintain, so I pay a subscription. That seems perfectly reasonable. I also recognize that I'm subsidizing players who can't afford to pay a subscription fee at the moment, and I'm also okay with that since having a large player base benefits the game as a whole. What I don't understand is how some posters seem to think that the money to keep the game viable will simply come ex nihilo, without subscription and expansion fees.

Hovered between "agree" and "awesome". Decided on "awesome". Glad others can see this.

I suspect many believe the evil crates are what keeps everything going....or some such.

Iselin

@Rainwhisper

Leaving ESO aside for a moment let me ask you a question? Who exactly was it that created the predominant MMO business model and called it "free to play"?

Hint: it wasn't the players. Any confusion about what players are "entitled to" has been deliberately manufactured.

I've also been paying subs in MMOs since the late '90s but I've been doing more than that: I've also been watching the evolution of the business models and have seen all the smallish development studios either become megacorporations or been acquired by them.

The idea that players are too cheap to pay for a sub is a lie. The fact is and has always been that there is much more money to be made from cash shops (and these days, loot boxes, of course) than from subs. F2P (and its cousin B2P) is the standard these days because it makes more money... no other reason.

The push back from players you saw last year related to Morrowind was all about the ESO business model changing from the simple "sub or buy DLC" system to a "sub or buy DLC AND buy one of the DLC." It was a price increase of 25% for the ESO+ subscribers. And it was actually those who do subscribe who were hit hardest and objected the loudest - not some fictitious strawmen who want things for free.

ProfesseurFreder

It's very simple. When I buy a game, I don't expect to have to pay an additional monthly RENT to play it!

I do not, will not ever RENT my software -- for the same reason that I don't and wouldn't RENT an hammer or a screwdriver.

When I want to read a book, I BUY it, I don't RENT it. Imagine paying $15.95 for a book, and then another 9.95 every time you sit down to read it!

I am strictly a "buy it outright" kind of person: and so I am not an ESO Plus member and not likely to become one, because I prefer to buy all the expansions outright and never have to pay for them again. I'm also happy to throw ZOS money for Crown Store items that I like, since it helps their bottom line.

I only ever played the free version of World of Warcraft, because I refuse to pay a monthly fee for a game that charges you upfront to play it. Warcraft doesn't use a pricing scheme: it uses an EXTORTION scheme.

Drachenfier

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

It's very simple. When I buy a game, I don't expect to have to pay an additional monthly RENT to play it!

You don't...unless it's a game that's constantly under development.

I never understood why people will *** and moan about paying the cost of one good lunch or one two hour movie for a full month's worth of entertainment.

It literally blows my mind.

myskyrim26

Zeni is a commercial company. Any commercial company is created to make some product and earn profit. So is Zeni. And they have to pay a lot of taxes, salaries, marketing costs, credits, etc. Also, they need to spend money for maintanance of the existing content and creating new. Finally, they need to earn some net profit, or why doing all this?
Another thing to think over: if a product fails to bring the profit, any commercial company quits it. If ESO will not bring enough money to cover expences and yield some profit, Zeni will just stop working on it. Just as the bakery will stop producing the bread that nobody buys. Do you want to play ESO and see new content? Pay for it. It is worth paying for. No bakery will give you bread for free, you know? Why should Zeni?
And one more thing to think over: a new product is always expensive at release. If you cant's afford Summerset Chapter, just wait for some discounts, don't whine that it is too expensive.
Finally, if you want absolutely free mounts, costumes, new territories and quests, just download some free mods for Skyrim - you can even have the free version of Summerset in this case.

Kodrac

You all got played by the forum necromancer... again!

antihero727

Rainwhisper wrote: »

I've been following several of the threads about Morrowind and about ESO Plus, some of which invariably come back to a claim that Morrowind should be treated as DLC, and others which make "pay-to-win" arguments.

As someone who has paid a monthly subscription fee for every MMO I've ever played, dating back to Ultima Online, I'm perplexed by just how much content people seem to expect to get for free. Likewise, I've always had to pay for expansions, and doing so always made sense to me. I recognize that server upkeep and customer service costs alone justify a subscription fee, much less the additional creative content and ongoing development work, including balancing. The massive content additions of an expansion, likewise, also require a significant financial outlay for art, writing, programming, area design, voice acting, etc.

Which prompts my question: What is the source of the expectation that a massive, virtual world (as opposed to an FPS arena environment like Overwatch) should be free?

I enjoy playing the game, and I recognize that the experience I enjoy costs money to create and maintain, so I pay a subscription. That seems perfectly reasonable. I also recognize that I'm subsidizing players who can't afford to pay a subscription fee at the moment, and I'm also okay with that since having a large player base benefits the game as a whole. What I don't understand is how some posters seem to think that the money to keep the game viable will simply come ex nihilo, without subscription and expansion fees.

The only issue I ever had with Morrowind was that you couldn’t use crowns to buy it. That was a low blow from ZOS.

Rungar

i have zero issues with their model and i actually think its the best and most flexible one around.

If people are to be honest the $$/hour is very low compared to pretty much any other entertainment.

Vanthras79

Based on what little has been datamined I am not sold yet. I will reserve judgment until after the official announcement.

DaveMoeDee

I don't think it is reasonable to complain about expansion costs in itself, nor about the sub costs. The cost of the expansion is more or less in-line with the cost of expansions in other games, even if it is on a smaller scale.

It WAS reasonable to complain about past marketing telling players that subs would be all they need to have access to all content and then changing that.

Fleshreaper

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

If it is a sense of entitlement, it is a feeling of entitlement to receive what was advertised and to not have the service play semantics games.

While I agree that this was a bait and switch (though possibly unintentional as they may have truly expected to release 4 quarterly DLC a year before reality set in), I don't consider this an unreasonable model. The sub is take it or leave it. People are getting upset because it is now more obvious than ever that the sub is mostly just paying for crafting bags and now there are other costs on top. It is what it is. Take it or leave it. Personally, I subbed one month for DB/crafting bags and subbed again this month to have crafting bags for all the anniversary mats. I don't do reoccurring and suffer through inventory management in between.

What other games have done is irrelevant. Other games have had all sorts of ways of monetization. What is relevant is how ZOS advertised ESO+ and the word games they played to back out of their communicated terms.

It's not just a crafting bag... As a sub you are buying crowns every month, you are getting $15 worth of crowns every month but because you are automatically buying those crowns you get, unlimited crafting bag and access to "some" new content for free.

DaveMoeDee

ProfesseurFreder wrote: »

It's very simple. When I buy a game, I don't expect to have to pay an additional monthly RENT to play it!

I do not, will not ever RENT my software -- for the same reason that I don't and wouldn't RENT an hammer or a screwdriver.

When I want to read a book, I BUY it, I don't RENT it. Imagine paying $15.95 for a book, and then another 9.95 every time you sit down to read it!

I am strictly a "buy it outright" kind of person: and so I am not an ESO Plus member and not likely to become one, because I prefer to buy all the expansions outright and never have to pay for them again. I'm also happy to throw ZOS money for Crown Store items that I like, since it helps their bottom line.

I only ever played the free version of World of Warcraft, because I refuse to pay a monthly fee for a game that charges you upfront to play it. Warcraft doesn't use a pricing scheme: it uses an EXTORTION scheme.

I guess that is all completely reasonable. You seem to only be talking about your personal preference, and it is a reasonable preference.

I hoard enough that playing without ESO+ stops being fun. I also don't think the game has enough regular new content to make it worth $15 (or $13) a month to me, so I just sub now and then, maybe 3 non-consecutive months in a year. I just don't play much in-between.

In the end, there is no principle that restricts what I spend money on apart from my general frugality and what I enjoy.

DaveMoeDee

Fleshreaper wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

If it is a sense of entitlement, it is a feeling of entitlement to receive what was advertised and to not have the service play semantics games.

While I agree that this was a bait and switch (though possibly unintentional as they may have truly expected to release 4 quarterly DLC a year before reality set in), I don't consider this an unreasonable model. The sub is take it or leave it. People are getting upset because it is now more obvious than ever that the sub is mostly just paying for crafting bags and now there are other costs on top. It is what it is. Take it or leave it. Personally, I subbed one month for DB/crafting bags and subbed again this month to have crafting bags for all the anniversary mats. I don't do reoccurring and suffer through inventory management in between.

What other games have done is irrelevant. Other games have had all sorts of ways of monetization. What is relevant is how ZOS advertised ESO+ and the word games they played to back out of their communicated terms.

It's not just a crafting bag... As a sub you are buying crowns every month, you are getting $15 worth of crowns every month but because you are automatically buying those crowns you get, unlimited crafting bag and access to "some" new content for free.

I have 9k in crowns. The only things in the store I would consider spending money on are the merchant (I already have the banker) and the last 3 character slots. I don't see the point in the last 3 slots as I already have at least 2 of each class, only 5 are currently max level, and some haven't really been played apart from mount leveling. Any additional crowns would add no value. They would just be an increasing number. They would just sit there until a new assistant I value came out or more character slots. So it is $0 worth of crowns when there is nothing worth buying.

Plus, 1500 is not $15 worth of crowns to me since any crowns I purchase were 5500 for $24. At best, that is $6 worth of crowns. More like $0 for me though because I would only be able to spend them by buying things worth $0 to me. If ESO+ included 1500 premium currency to My Little Pony online, would that be $15 in value for your?

AdamBourke

At least the forums have a necromancer class...

EDIT: To be clear, I don't want a necromancer class, i just wanted to make the joke...

DieAlteHexe

AdamBourke wrote: »

At least the forums have a necromancer class...

EDIT: To be clear, I don't want a necromancer class, i just wanted to make the joke...

Oh good one. LOL