NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Some people play this game to improve individual skill, master game mechanics, maximize individual capabilities, and otherwise get good on an individual level. These players minimize group size, try to fight outnumbered, and focus on the fights rather than objectives.

Zergers disregard individual skill in favor of taking objectives as a team and winning the campaign. These players focus on the map and campaign score and view accumulating numbers as a tactic with which to win challenging fights, much like line of sight is to soloers.

Neither side is necessarily right or wrong, but their play styles clash. Groups of people who have ideological disagreements have fought throughout history. Sometimes this escalates to tension. That's all.

I like this answer, thank you. I would very much put my self under the Zerger category there where I very much value taking objectives more so than just fighting. I for one was very happy about the increase in AP from taking objectives thou. Now I heard there was a lot of issues with that during the double AP week on EU but thankfully we didn't see that much at all on NA. Even when I don't really have a clear keep in mind to take, if our forces are stuck fighting larger forces its very common for me to go behind enemy lines so to say simply to take a few resources at a keep that would close of connection to the one being fought at simply to draw of forces for a bit. I know that as soon as they saw me take a few they would come running. I would most likely get curb stumped but after that I can respawn and join the fray again with hopefully a bit of a stronger push. Sometimes it works others it doesn't. But its fun and I know that even solo I can contribute to the larger goal.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I would love if this games PVP worked with big battles . If I even want to consider joining a group , I have to turn my graphics down off maximum to almost minimum to get the necessary 60fps to follow a battle properly . I have to accept while in group random disconnects and loading screens will increase based on how big the group gets . Then I have to put a lot of faith in the server not stuttering if we run into another large group , spiking ping over 120 and anywhere as far 1000 . At these points you can't trust half of what you see on your screen as current ...

So I solo so I can enjoy the game . If we could get PVP to work I would be happy to fight big battles . It just doesn't seem like we are ever going to live that Pre launch advertising video and statements about playing with thousands of other players . Unless Wheeler hires some kind of real internet wizard that breaks the laws of eso physics .

I know a lot of people have put Lag and performance as their number one grief with Zergs but I can honestly say I don't really get it that much at all. Maybe its just me being used to playing with 200+ping at all times that makes me more used to it. But I also know that the game was designed with the intent to have it playable in 200 ish ping, I have very little problem in both PvP and PvE when it comes to lag or framerate drops. I had it even less so during the No CP week where I fought many large scale fights with probably a over 150+ players where around the same keep at several occasions.

And regarding NO CP, I've said it a few times on the forums already that I would very much like all forms of PvP to be without CP, not just for performance but also for the more equal grounds everyone would be on. Would make new people also more likely to join in and have a more enjoyable experience, also people could no longer use CP as something to blame if they lost, but obviously the blame would just be shifted elsewhere if its that kind of person. But I do know that the No CP week in Cyro was a lot more fun than usual and the No CP part of the play test I got to do that ZOS was also more enjoyable. People had to adept and play slightly different but it was also more skill based and you had to watch what you where doing a lot more and not just mindlessly spam easy to use abilities.

Kilandros wrote: »

Big fights (i.e., one large group against another large group) can be a lot of fun. I think most of the time that people complain of zergs it's in the context of 24+ players going after 4.

If a group of 24 is on its way to an objective and see 4 enemies in their path, they are going to mow them down. That makes complete sense in the context of the ongoing war. That is the risk of traveling in small numbers with large armies running around.

I wouldn't hate zergs so much if they just got rid of camps. No camps forces reinforcements to come from the nearest keeps. It spreads out the battles and allows for better small group play while also allowing for the Zerg. I prefer the small group skirmishing away from keeps. I just like that style and that there is less lag. I like running interference on the reinforcements. Camps pretty much kill the efficacy of playing that way if you want to earn decent AP.

I dont hate zergs. I hate zergballs though. You can have 60 randoms fighting against 60 other and wont have much lag. But one coordinated destrotrain fighting 60 randoms. RIP Server

Let me tell you what i saw last night in Haderus Imperial City:

EP had been crowned emperor, he took his 16+ group into IC, put so many tel var on him that he had that blue beam of light shooting off of him, and steam rolled all the districts. We tried to defend one of our district flags and after two failed attempts, we realized, oh crap this is the emp.

I had a group of 7 - 4 of which had never been in IC in their life and 1 of which was on a Level 16.

They proceeded to literally hunt us down. We saw the emp group and ran and these guys chased us through two districts and ulti bombed us. This is the emp we are talking about. super powered. in a large group. being flamboyant with the 10k + telvar indicator fx on him. and chasing us through temple, to arboretum to arena and then bombing us with everything they had.

Then the night before, I had one sorc built to IC gank and troll continuously taunt our group while we tried to farm the world bosses. It got to the point where they would pop destro ult, streak in, then we would clobber him and he wouldnt even get a kill. But he continued to troll us even though he wasnt getting any kills.

So solo player, zerg player, ya'll are all the same. im going to tell you right now, idgaf what anyone in the world thinks about a zerg. I will take any group size i feel like handling on any given night and i will pvp the way i want. because thats what the players have done to this game. You want to boast about 1vX but youre just the same as a zerg imho.

you grab one set of gear that you know is OP or synergizes well with your build that im sure you got off alcast-hq or youtube. you destro ult and cc. WOW!! thats soooooo much skill!!!

Furthermore, youve got guys like fengrush telling everyone he doesnt like trueflame because its sooo zergy and laggy yet he runs one of the biggest zergs on azura! and he will admit that the lower performance on TF is bad for his stream. but its ok to do it on a campaign that he doesnt get low performance on because his stream stays chugging.

Like the hypocrisy and stupidity of the prepubescent pvp crowd is unbearable. where were you small scale people last night when the ep emp decided to push our *actual* small group? hmm? thats what i thought. Let people play the way they want. Stop spreading the B.S. that zerging is bad. its just one way to play.

paulsimonps wrote: »

This has been something that has been on my mind for a very long time. Whenever its brought up the idea of a large mass of players converging on one location, or a "Zerg", it's almost always met with a lot of negative comments. Personally I love being in the zerg, especially when its meet by another one. The constant push and pull of large scale fight across cyrodiil is amazing. 60+vs60+ people fighting over a keep or resource is an amazing experience and I love it. But I always here how people cheer on small scale and hate on large scale, some people even talk like small scale PvP like it makes them better than others just cause they do it. But for me Cyrodiil is not just PvP its AvA, Alliance vs Alliance. All of you vs all of us. Yet the large scale fights are always talked about with hate and disdain, why is that? Maybe this will dissipate a bit with battlegrounds coming out and some of the small scale PvP'ers go over there. But it still leaves me as said, wondering, why the hate?

I know some say that if you zerg you are unskilled but I also know a lot of people that are skilled that join the zergs as well. Obviously as an outside viewer you can't just by looking at the oncoming forces know who is and who is not skilled so saying that someone that is zerging is a bad player is just another form the small scale superiority complex. Just cause you like small scale doesn't make you better, nor does liking large scale make you better. Skill is not determined by what type of battles you like to join.

My first MMO was Warhammer Online, it had a large focus on PvP or what they called RvR which was Realm vs Realm and for me AvA is very similar. Some of the PvP Designers even worked on Warhammer. The epic fights that can arise from two or even three large forces clashing is something to behold and I love it, but for some reason saying I like it sometimes makes people automatically dislike me and shower me with negative comments or the more common superiority complex comments of "small scale if better."

So as a final note, why do you if you do, hate Zergs or if you like them what do you think about the common hate towards it?

I'm pretty sure most people don't hate zergs because most people in Cyrodiil are actually in one or surfing one.

NBrookus wrote: »

Why do people post videos of and admire small scale? Well, would you watch videos of a competent group doing a 4 man dungeon on hard mode unless it was friends, or something special like the first world clear, or needed to learn it? Probably not. But someone goes in and solos vWGT on hard mode? That's a player that can kill, sustain and heal by themselves. It's admirable and is a skill level to which many either aspire to or realize is out of reach for them -- even if it's not a task they particularly want to do.

So people cheer on 1vX and outnumbered play because it requires a well-rounded build and level of mastery over one's class in that kind of scenario that many players don't and won't have -- and some will never try because it's not their cup of tea.

So let's scale your statement up. What if it's a group of 16 taking on a zerg of 30+? It's the same GD thing. That 16 man group has less damage, less resources, and less ultimates to attack with. Each member of the smaller group needs to be on point with heals, negates, destros, and when to use them. All those "1vX" videos are typically a guy running around a tree picking off a small pack of players one by one as if in a line. Some folks just don't care for that kind of play. I'm with the OP. the epic large scale battles are why I came to this game. But I can also do a group of 6 or less in IC. If you wanna be out there all alone and get run over, that's your problem. Not ZoS', and certainly not the other players. The lag is on ZoS. I'll agree with that. But it's also not the players' fault there.

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

This has been something that has been on my mind for a very long time. Whenever its brought up the idea of a large mass of players converging on one location, or a "Zerg", it's almost always met with a lot of negative comments. Personally I love being in the zerg, especially when its meet by another one. The constant push and pull of large scale fight across cyrodiil is amazing. 60+vs60+ people fighting over a keep or resource is an amazing experience and I love it. But I always here how people cheer on small scale and hate on large scale, some people even talk like small scale PvP like it makes them better than others just cause they do it. But for me Cyrodiil is not just PvP its AvA, Alliance vs Alliance. All of you vs all of us. Yet the large scale fights are always talked about with hate and disdain, why is that? Maybe this will dissipate a bit with battlegrounds coming out and some of the small scale PvP'ers go over there. But it still leaves me as said, wondering, why the hate?

I know some say that if you zerg you are unskilled but I also know a lot of people that are skilled that join the zergs as well. Obviously as an outside viewer you can't just by looking at the oncoming forces know who is and who is not skilled so saying that someone that is zerging is a bad player is just another form the small scale superiority complex. Just cause you like small scale doesn't make you better, nor does liking large scale make you better. Skill is not determined by what type of battles you like to join.

My first MMO was Warhammer Online, it had a large focus on PvP or what they called RvR which was Realm vs Realm and for me AvA is very similar. Some of the PvP Designers even worked on Warhammer. The epic fights that can arise from two or even three large forces clashing is something to behold and I love it, but for some reason saying I like it sometimes makes people automatically dislike me and shower me with negative comments or the more common superiority complex comments of "small scale if better."

So as a final note, why do you if you do, hate Zergs or if you like them what do you think about the common hate towards it?

I'm pretty sure most people don't hate zergs because most people in Cyrodiil are actually in one or surfing one.

Maybe not, but a lot of people on the forums are. As well, a lot of people are hypocrites and say they hate zergs all the while surfing one.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Zergs wouldn't be hated if
a : they weren't a major factor in the server performance
b : they would stick to objectives, other zergs, and people who poke them.

When a zerg chases down a small group for 5 min completely away from any objective, that's when they generate the most hate in my book.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I know a lot of people have put Lag and performance as their number one grief with Zergs but I can honestly say I don't really get it that much at all. Maybe its just me being used to playing with 200+ping at all times that makes me more used to it. But I also know that the game was designed with the intent to have it playable in 200 ish ping,

The fact you are used to 200 ping doesn't justify raising the ping for others though. And it's much easier to play with 200 ping in a zerg than it is when small scaling.

When did I say that I wanted to raise the ping of others? What I said was that performance on 200ish ping is not bad, at all really. I run in huge zergs a lot and I rarely get high ping spikes. But I am guessing what you are saying is that because I run in a zerg I am messing up the ping of others? If you have 999+ ping I can get it and I apologize but as I've said a few times now. If there is an obvious next target to pick I won't not go there just because it will make others think I am bad or thinking "oh maybe adding one other player(me) will lag someone out, better go PvP somewhere else so that I don't anger someone." No I will go take the next keep and fight for my alliance regardless, I don't even think about it.

And also what I said about 200 ping is that I play with it constantly in all areas of the game. I live in EU but I play NA, that distance gives me that ping no matter what I do in the game. And I play the game just fine, no problems at all. I can react to boss mechnics in PvE and I can move and react to enemy players in PvP too. The game is designed with possible high ping in mind to ease performance, I heard it straight from a dev and I trust them on it.

I didn't mean that you personnaly raise the ping, or that you do so through your gameplay.
I'm used to playing with 80-100 ping, and I can definitely feel a decrease if my personnal performance when I play under higher ping.

It's not up to solo players to decide to go do something else. If there is a fight ongoing at a keep where neither the defenders nor the attacks are progressing and the fight makes the server lag, no group leader should decide to go add even more people there.

zerglyfe. live the chaos.

The real problem with zerging in an AvAvA game is that it's been made too effective and rewarding (in terms of AP). If you can get everyone on your side to zerg together, your side will do better.

Swarming down that keep/Outpost/resource takes 1/2 as long (or better) with 2x as many people. And gains just as much AP as doing it slower, with more risk/skill involved, in a smaller group.

I don't blame people for zerging. I just want the devs to change the PvP rules so that a playstyle with higher risk has a higher reward.

Most people don't hate the zergs. They just say they do on the forums. It's cool to be in Twitch chat complaining about the zergs. Fast forward 2 hours to be standing on BRK wall with 50 of your closest friends defending the keep.... solo. That's a good one,