Why do people hate Zergs so much?

paulsimonps

This has been something that has been on my mind for a very long time. Whenever its brought up the idea of a large mass of players converging on one location, or a "Zerg", it's almost always met with a lot of negative comments. Personally I love being in the zerg, especially when its meet by another one. The constant push and pull of large scale fight across cyrodiil is amazing. 60+vs60+ people fighting over a keep or resource is an amazing experience and I love it. But I always here how people cheer on small scale and hate on large scale, some people even talk like small scale PvP like it makes them better than others just cause they do it. But for me Cyrodiil is not just PvP its AvA, Alliance vs Alliance. All of you vs all of us. Yet the large scale fights are always talked about with hate and disdain, why is that? Maybe this will dissipate a bit with battlegrounds coming out and some of the small scale PvP'ers go over there. But it still leaves me as said, wondering, why the hate?

I know some say that if you zerg you are unskilled but I also know a lot of people that are skilled that join the zergs as well. Obviously as an outside viewer you can't just by looking at the oncoming forces know who is and who is not skilled so saying that someone that is zerging is a bad player is just another form the small scale superiority complex. Just cause you like small scale doesn't make you better, nor does liking large scale make you better. Skill is not determined by what type of battles you like to join.

My first MMO was Warhammer Online, it had a large focus on PvP or what they called RvR which was Realm vs Realm and for me AvA is very similar. Some of the PvP Designers even worked on Warhammer. The epic fights that can arise from two or even three large forces clashing is something to behold and I love it, but for some reason saying I like it sometimes makes people automatically dislike me and shower me with negative comments or the more common superiority complex comments of "small scale if better."

So as a final note, why do you if you do, hate Zergs or if you like them what do you think about the common hate towards it?

Luigi_Vampa

Lag.

t3hdubzy

Because the leaders can be jerks, and if you are running solo facing a 30 man zerg can be nuts.

Zergs have their place, but i have bad experiences every time I join a group of 16 plus.

Strider_Roshin

Whenever there's a skill, mechanic, etc. that's very powerful, and requires very little skill; I have a problem with it. That's why things like the Destro ult, proc sets, shield stacking, Soul Assault, and the RNG dodging you get from shuffle has always gotten on my nerves. Zerging is probably the worst of all of it. If Cyrodiil PvP was a little more balanced in terms of numbers; it wouldn't be a big deal. However what we see is a lot of small groups getting ran over by an army at least triple their size. The zergs wins effortlessly, and most of the players probably didn't even have enough time to land a hit.

phairdon

Never had a problem with zergs, really enjoy the large scale battles. Cyrodiil was designed with large scale in mind. A shame the lag caused by it, is so problematic for many.

jenshady

"I am a stamblade that only wants to gank people in small scale battles and the whole point of factions fighting eachother is useless"


Small scale battles have their place....large scale battles have theirs. I join a small group (and hell sometimes solo and ending up following random people taking a keep) and we end up "zerg surfing" after a while to join quick battles. Does that make us bad players? No.

Stovahkiin

My problem with zergs is that they require little to no skill (good for new pvpers actually) and create more lag.

Izaki

Typhoios wrote: »

Lag.

^^^^

NBrookus

Why do people post videos of and admire small scale? Well, would you watch videos of a competent group doing a 4 man dungeon on hard mode unless it was friends, or something special like the first world clear, or needed to learn it? Probably not. But someone goes in and solos vWGT on hard mode? That's a player that can kill, sustain and heal by themselves. It's admirable and is a skill level to which many either aspire to or realize is out of reach for them -- even if it's not a task they particularly want to do.

So people cheer on 1vX and outnumbered play because it requires a well-rounded build and level of mastery over one's class in that kind of scenario that many players don't and won't have -- and some will never try because it's not their cup of tea.

Kram8ion

Probably dying from one I guess brings much rage but it's the point
Move along nothing to see here

Rohamad_Ali

Oh boy .. EP player wanting support for zerging . This will no doubt trigger DC small man and 1 v X'ers .

IcyDeadPeople

First you may need to clarify what a "zerg" is. For some people it is any group larger than X, or that organized teamspeak zergball group that keeps healing and purging, for others it is the unorganized enemy faction stack who may not be in any group at all.

Others favor the long-established mathematical theorem zerg = (n + 1) where n is the number of players in your party.

I suppose it's helpful to think of it as a verb. Are you "zerging down" smaller groups of enemy players or ganging up and chasing one dude halfway the way across the map? If so, you are probably in some sort of zerg.

And then what happens if your slightly outnumbered faction kills 2 enemy players and suddenly you outnumber them? Nobody is going to stop fighting and wait for them to get back to even numbers.

Obviously, it's not fun to get zerged down. But this game is not designed with the concept of constantly evenly matched team battles or duels on Alessia Bridge, and pretty much all of us get zerged down frequently.

In my case I just respawn and don't get upset or blame zergs for zerging. However if you log on for a few hours and only ever run into these huge groups of enemy players healing each other and focus firing you down, it can turn some people off from PVP.
.

LeifErickson

I always thought it was the other way around. I thought people hated solo and small scale because they never play the objective and just go in to get good fights.

KingJ

I swear people post these every 2-3 months.Running In a zerg require barely any skill.

Soul_Demon

The group finder menu tells you that they have a recommended size for most dungeons or trials....you don't have to run that many, but the experience might be different if you don't. The same tab tells you Cyro's recommended group size is 8-24, you don't have to run that many, but your experience may change with less.

zuto40

ive met skilled small group and solo players, ive never met a skilled zerger

IxSTALKERxI

I really like a good large scale fight. Nothing more fun in the game imo. When I say that I mean a 50 vs 50 battle where the sides are evenly matched so the fight gets drawn out. There can be 'skilled' players inside this fight and their actions will turn the tide of the fight and give their side the edge eventually leading to victory.

Example of this would be 'The Tickening'.
I was zerg surfing in a group with a bunch of AD up to sejanus. We managed to capture sejanus and successfully defend it. It would of been a decent defence tick but it didn't go off - another fight had started. After defending it again the tick was about to go off, but No Mercy started suiciding in tick range to keep the tick rolling.

This went on for hours. Word soon spread to all of AD and soon enough the whole AD faction were defending Sej with ground oils etc while EP and DC tried desperately to get the tick. In fact word spread about the tick to people who were offline and people started logging in to get the tick. It was chaos. Because everyone was at Sej, EP casually captured every keep on the map, took the scrolls and crowned Frozn emperor. But not even the Frozn emperor could get AD out of Sej. With the siege merchant dead I had to make a trip to the gate and back to stock up on 50 oils and handed them out to everyone.

After almost a 10 hour defense of sejanus eventually it ticked and all 60-80+ AD got a 55k tick or something. (This was before AP values were doubled.)

zyk

It must be self-loathing because 99% of AvA players seem to at least surf zergs.

paulsimonps

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I really like a good large scale fight. Nothing more fun in the game imo. When I say that I mean a 50 vs 50 battle where the sides are evenly matched so the fight gets drawn out. There can be 'skilled' players inside this fight and their actions will turn the tide of the fight and give their side the edge eventually leading to victory.

Example of this would be 'The Tickening'.
I was zerg surfing in a group with a bunch of AD up to sejanus. We managed to capture sejanus and successfully defend it. It would of been a decent defence tick but it didn't go off - another fight had started. After defending it again the tick was about to go off, but No Mercy started suiciding in tick range to keep the tick rolling.

This went on for hours. Word soon spread to all of AD and soon enough the whole AD faction were defending Sej with ground oils etc while EP and DC tried desperately to get the tick. In fact word spread about the tick to people who were offline and people started logging in to get the tick. It was chaos. Because everyone was at Sej, EP casually captured every keep on the map, took the scrolls and crowned Frozn emperor. But not even the Frozn emperor could get AD out of Sej. With the siege merchant dead I had to make a trip to the gate and back to stock up on 50 oils and handed them out to everyone.

After almost a 10 hour defense of sejanus eventually it ticked and all 60-80+ AD got a 55k tick or something. (This was before AP values were doubled.)

That's the kind of PvP I love, huge battles ranging across hours. But say for example I'm EP and We have just taken Bleakers then the obvious choice to go next would be aleswell but thing is, its the obvious choice so most of EP will flock there, small group, large group, solo. They will all tend to go for the next objective, but in doing so I am "zerging" and there for I am a scrub player that doesn't know how to PvP, cause zerging doesn't require skill. That is the current mentality that I am seeing on the forums at least. But without this converging of players we won't have those incredibly fun large scale fights with tons of people on all sides. Small scale groups zerg surf all the time but since they are in a small group they are apparently above it all. I usually just go into Cyro with my wife and a few friends usually no more than 5 of us but I still go with the zerg cause I am looking for the next large fight. I want the other side to push back with equal force, but apparently its wrong of me to do so.

Side note, I get the argument for lag, its a Pita for all of us, but I hope for the best so I keep going in anyway cause its fun and I'm hopeful they will fix it eventually.

zyk

I am always shocked when people who choose to play an AvA open world objective based game complain about being outnumbered or "zerged down."

It's like, I'm gonna go play TF2 and complain about rocket jumping.

Personally, I enjoy most play styles and group sizes. I now play far too casually to venture off 100% solo as much as I used to, but when I did that most of the time, not once did I complain about getting zerged down. Except when it was VE.

I've been "zerged down" by almost everyone at this point, including elitists who think they don't zerg. You'll be fighting a guy 1v1 in the middle of nowhere and then after you have the upper hand, out of stealth come 6 of his buddies. Later, they'll complain when the 12 player group I'm with runs them over after they attack our backline...

paulsimonps

zyk wrote: »

I am always shocked when people who choose to play an AvA open world objective based game complain about being outnumbered or "zerged down."

It's like, I'm gonna go play TF2 and complain about rocket jumping.

Personally, I enjoy most play styles and group sizes. I now play far too casually to venture off 100% solo as much as I used to, but when I did that most of the time, not once did I complain about getting zerged down. Except when it was VE.

I've been "zerged down" by almost everyone at this point, including elitists who don't think they zerg. You'll be fighting a guy 1v1 in the middle of nowhere and then after you have the upper hand, out of stealth come 6 of his buddies. Later, they'll complain when the 12 player group I'm with runs them over after they attack our backline...

I know right. The mentality of, "zerging is bad but its not zerging when I do it". A lot of people think that way, too many.

I've been zerged down plenty of times, but I'm usually in the front of the line with my PvP Tank build and I over extend or my back up falters, or I *** up and get to the wrong place at the wrong time. S*** happens but you just respawn and try again. Its a push and pull and you can't win everything. Would be boring that way. Almost everyone at one point or another zergs, with the exceptions of gankers I guess.

FluffyReachWitch

I personally prefer large battles too. It's way more exciting to be in the chaos of two large groups clashing. Plus, large groups get things done, and as others have pointed out, large-scale battles are the point of Cyrodiil.

But, people also hate losing. And it's easier to claim that a death was unfair and they were mercilessly hunted down with excessive force, than it is to just admit they had lower numbers, or that they tried to run for it (hence the chase), or that they accidentally ran into the path of an advancing group.

Some people would rather overcome the odds in small groups with their skills. In which case I say, okay, best of luck to them. I can see the appeal. But if they do get overwhelmed and defeated, that's just how the game goes.

Kilandros

Big fights (i.e., one large group against another large group) can be a lot of fun. I think most of the time that people complain of zergs it's in the context of 24+ players going after 4.

Cêltic421

Is 20+ people grouped together and taking or defending a keep consider a Zerg?

IcyDeadPeople

Cêltic421 wrote: »

Is 20+ people grouped together and taking or defending a keep consider a Zerg?

From the perspective of the random ganker you guys killed on your way to the keep, or the 3 people inside trying to defend against you, it would probably feel that way.

FluffyReachWitch

Cêltic421 wrote: »

Is 20+ people grouped together and taking or defending a keep consider a Zerg?

It depends on whose side you're on. Nobody has any complaints about their own side showing up en masse to defend a keep, for example. Especially if it's an important one. Likewise, an attacking group expects it to be defended, especially before the keep is flagged. A sizable group attacking a keep will always be called a zerg by someone, whether they mean it as a harmless synonym for a large group, or derisively.

donJay

Simple, because zerglings can't fend for themselves and they acknowledge that. This is a fact that has been proven time after time. The day you move from Zergling to an independent PvP'er, you will have graduated from the ESO tutorial.

Signs that they belong to a zerg:
1)Goes out of their way to make sure they have the numbers advantage on you
2)Goes out of their way to rezz other zerglings in the midst of outnumbering players
3)Goes out of their way to spam heals on the other zerglings
4)Tag teams in and out of the zerg to combat the solo player
5)Pulls out siege whilst outnumbering the enemy
MOST IMPORTANT AND BIGGEST ONE:
6)They don't know they are a zergling, which is more common than you think.

Ask yourself, "Do I need other players to fight other players?" Most zerglings answer "no", but it is blatantly a yes.

Edit: Reminder, I do not have a problem with zerging. I have a problem with those who make it obvious that they need it to compete with other players (especially if they have less numbers). Which is about what I see 100% of the time. It is very rare to see a player actually zerging for the fun of it and not because they need to.

paulsimonps

donJay wrote: »

Simple, because zerglings can't fend for themselves and they acknowledge that. This is a fact that has been proven time after time. The day you move from Zergling to an independent PvP'er, you will have graduated from the ESO tutorial.

Signs that they belong to a zerg:
1)Goes out of their way to make sure they have the numbers advantage on you
2)Goes out of their way to rezz other zerglings in the midst of outnumbering players
3)Goes out of their way to spam heals on the other zerglings
4)Tag teams in and out of the zerg to combat the solo player
5)Pulls out siege whilst outnumbering the enemy
MOST IMPORTANT AND BIGGEST ONE:
6)They don't know they are a zergling, which is more common than you think.

Ask yourself, "Do I need other players to fight other players?" Most zerglings answer "no", but it is blatantly a yes.

Edit: Reminder, I do not have a problem with zerging. I have a problem with those who make it obvious that they need it to compete with other players (especially if they have less numbers). Which is about what I see 100% of the time. It is very rare to see a player actually zerging for the fun of it and not because they need to.

Please define "Independent PvP'er"

Also regardless of if I am outnumbered or outnumbering I will rez people, its common courtesy and every person counts. The mentality of never rez'ing is just as bad in PvP as it is in PvE. And if I am a healer in PvP I will heal those that are around me regardless of if I am in group with them or not. Why would I not? Keeping my faction allies alive will help me in the short and long run to keep us fighting.

Only two points I would agree with as being rookie behavior is #1 and #5 but people learn over time. And I know that when we talked about sieges during some of our talks during my trip to ZOS it was described as something that anyone regardless of skill level could use and feel like the could contribute to the fight. So yes new players would and can use it during open field fights or keep fights to contribute in whatever way they can, nothing bad about it, I support it. They will move past using only sieges when they want to. But again, you are using zerg as meaning bad player. Why? As I said in a previous comment. If I take bleakers as EP then next obvious move is to take Aleswell, does it make me a bad player to join the rest of my faction in keeping to push DC back? Its the obvious move so many people will go there, and "zerg" so going on your comment I would be a noob scrub that doesn't know how to play if I did that.

donJay

paulsimonps wrote: »

donJay wrote: »

Simple, because zerglings can't fend for themselves and they acknowledge that. This is a fact that has been proven time after time. The day you move from Zergling to an independent PvP'er, you will have graduated from the ESO tutorial.

Signs that they belong to a zerg:
1)Goes out of their way to make sure they have the numbers advantage on you
2)Goes out of their way to rezz other zerglings in the midst of outnumbering players
3)Goes out of their way to spam heals on the other zerglings
4)Tag teams in and out of the zerg to combat the solo player
5)Pulls out siege whilst outnumbering the enemy
MOST IMPORTANT AND BIGGEST ONE:
6)They don't know they are a zergling, which is more common than you think.

Ask yourself, "Do I need other players to fight other players?" Most zerglings answer "no", but it is blatantly a yes.

Edit: Reminder, I do not have a problem with zerging. I have a problem with those who make it obvious that they need it to compete with other players (especially if they have less numbers). Which is about what I see 100% of the time. It is very rare to see a player actually zerging for the fun of it and not because they need to.

Please define "Independent PvP'er"

Also regardless of if I am outnumbered or outnumbering I will rez people, its common courtesy and every person counts. The mentality of never rez'ing is just as bad in PvP as it is in PvE. And if I am a healer in PvP I will heal those that are around me regardless of if I am in group with them or not. Why would I not? Keeping my faction allies alive will help me in the short and long run to keep us fighting.

Only two points I would agree with as being rookie behavior is #1 and #5 but people learn over time. And I know that when we talked about sieges during some of our talks during my trip to ZOS it was described as something that anyone regardless of skill level could use and feel like the could contribute to the fight. So yes new players would and can use it during open field fights or keep fights to contribute in whatever way they can, nothing bad about it, I support it. They will move past using only sieges when they want to. But again, you are using zerg as meaning bad player. Why? As I said in a previous comment. If I take bleakers as EP then next obvious move is to take Aleswell, does it make me a bad player to join the rest of my faction in keeping to push DC back? Its the obvious move so many people will go there, and "zerg" so going on your comment I would be a noob scrub that doesn't know how to play if I did that.

Independent PvP'er: One who doesn't NEED ( <-- keyword here) other players to PvP.

And all my comments about zerglings are about those who do it because they need to. That's all. The difference is in the initial thought processes. A zergling who approaches someone they can't take will immediately look to gather others without hesitation. On the other side of the coin, an independent player who is zerging will ask himself what HE needs to do to take on such a foe rather than look for others.

timidobserver

One big one that you didn't mention is performance. Whether it is rightly deserved or not aside, many players blame "zergs" for exacerbating the lag that ESO PvP has been plagued with for years. It's been a lot better lately, but in the past the game became a literal slideshow when zergs stacked on each other.

Rohamad_Ali

I would love if this games PVP worked with big battles . If I even want to consider joining a group , I have to turn my graphics down off maximum to almost minimum to get the necessary 60fps to follow a battle properly . I have to accept while in group random disconnects and loading screens will increase based on how big the group gets . Then I have to put a lot of faith in the server not stuttering if we run into another large group , spiking ping over 120 and anywhere as far 1000 . At these points you can't trust half of what you see on your screen as current ...

So I solo so I can enjoy the game . If we could get PVP to work I would be happy to fight big battles . It just doesn't seem like we are ever going to live that Pre launch advertising video and statements about playing with thousands of other players . Unless Wheeler hires some kind of real internet wizard that breaks the laws of eso physics .