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Last two AMD drivers cause flickering Grass so heavily grass has to be turned off or driver reverted

  • Lexcro
    Lexcro
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    Yeah rx470 here, same issues.....running 16.12.2 (December 16).

    Kinda irritating, although I will say I am new AMD user who is seriously thinking about going to NVIDIA 1060 as the AMD drivers and features all seem kinda buggy....not just for ESO.
    People deserve to be treated with respect, even on the internet.
  • masterosokub17_ESO
    masterosokub17_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    Can we leave the AMD vs Nvidia debate out of this thread? It does nothing to contribute to assisting with the issue and is old and tired. People are arguing about Ryzen for christ's sake? What does that have to do with this issue?

    People buy the cards they buy for various reasons and both sides have issues at time with some games.

    I am running the 17.3.2 drivers on a fresh and clean install (yesterday) of Windows.

    Had the same issue with the last two sets of drivers. Any one know what the best options are for getting this reported so we can get a fix. Do we need to start creating tickets with AMD support?

    Anyone know the latest set of drivers from AMD where this issue did not occur?
    Edited by masterosokub17_ESO on March 19, 2017 9:48PM
  • Enthrall
    Enthrall
    Soul Shriven
    17.1.2 is working.
  • Lexcro
    Lexcro
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    @masterosokub17_ESO I was just expressing (justified) frustration and commenting that my experience with AMD overall has not been great so far in comparison to my previous experience with NVIDIA cards, others may indeed have had the opposite experience.

    Not trying to argue about anything.

    And I can also confirm 17.1.2 is working (for this game).
    People deserve to be treated with respect, even on the internet.
  • masterosokub17_ESO
    masterosokub17_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    Lexcro, I wasn't speaking about you specifically, just in general. A good deal of this thread is people going back and forth about AMD vs Nvidia which some how morph into a discuss about issues with Ryzen. It seems like any time someone has an issue with an AMD product instead of trying to help people jump on to bash AMD and well you should just get an Nvidia card.

    Let me give 17.1.2 a shoot.
    Edited by masterosokub17_ESO on March 20, 2017 12:14AM
  • barduck
    barduck
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    The problem is still there with the just released 17.3.3 driver.

    Oh come on!

    I know this isn't necessary ZOS's blame but really, ZOS and parent company are big enough with enough influence in the industry to get it fixed asap one way or another. This shouldn't be dragging over weeks.
  • Palidon
    Palidon
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    Really a shame. The flickering grass issues with ESO have prevented me from updating my AMD driver from 17.1.2 which does not have that issue. AMD has now released several drives since 17.1.2 with the most recent 17.3.3 on 3/21 and the issue has still not been fixed. Don't know who to blame but geeze how long does it take. Will wait for one more driver release or input from ZOS the issue has been handled. If not looks like this game is on the back burner since I want to take advantage of AMD's latest drivers for other games and I am not going to deal with flickering grass.
    Edited by Palidon on March 21, 2017 9:00PM
  • Enthrall
    Enthrall
    Soul Shriven
    They'll get it eventually. For now just play other games or downgrade. Awhile back I had an issue with my 390 on a driver where I'd move the camera a certain way it it would make parts of geometry disappear.

    I didn't come back to the game for a month unfortunately but was playing other stuff. It's unfortunate that it happens and i've experienced the same issues with nvidia from time to time. Maybe this fix is just not in ESO devs sprint yet. LOL

    Otherwise just checking in until this is fixed.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    mihawk90 wrote: »
    Nvidia has far fewer issues and are the ones pushing the graphics boundaries into the new tech.
    Oh god the fanboy is strong in this one.
    just .... ew ...
    Who had HDR first? Nvidia.
    Actually HDR rendering has been around since the DirectX 9 days, and DirectX 9 was first supported natively by ATI back in the day...
    Who had dual graphics cards first? Nvidia.
    Uuuhhh... 3dfx anyone?
    Who had Gsync/Freesync first? Nvidia.
    Both are marketing terms for Adaptive Sync in the DisplayPort standard. And guess who's version is also royalty free?
    Both companies have a long long term proven record. AMD/ATI for bad drivers and slow adoption of new tech, Nvidia for reliability and new tech.
    nvidia has had A LOT of *** drivers over the years, if you can say anything about nvidia it's that they have better marketing lol.


    I've used nvidia for years, but the *** they are doing over the last years is just disgusting. Instead of actually making better products they rather introduce "revolutionary new tech" that drags competitors down and isn't even better looking (looking at the various AA techniques they released, among other things).


    Just leaving this here, probably won't come back and I'm not sure why I even bother l0l

    1) I think 3dfx is a board manufacturer/reseller of Nvidia tech. Nvidia licenses its tech out to other companies to make. I know for a fact that "SLI" came well before "Crossfire" and SLI is Nvidia's tech, even if they bought it.
    FYI, the same thing happened with PhysX which is now baked into Nvidia cards because they bought that company that first developed it and left AMD/ATI to try to backwards engineer the same thing different enough to not get sued, meaning it can't be as simple and efficient and reliable unless the original approach by Nvidia is flawed and they give up on improving. If 3dFX was first to have dual-cards then Nvidia bought the rights and used it first after them before ATI.

    2) Adaptive Sync came after Gsync as a "copy cat" measure by AMD trying to remain relevant, but they had to make it different enough to not get sued for copying, introducing inefficiency and errors(typical of "sloppy seconds"/"late to the party" AMD).

    3) HDR wasn't used by cards even though DirectX had it as an options and no, ATI was always supporting OpenGL first. Nvidia is the one that focused on DirectX(likely because it was financially pushed by Microsoft).

    4) Every company has had bad drivers, but not every other driver like AMD/ATI has. I swear the black/flickering textures bug has been coming back every other driver in many games since I started playing pc games in 2002 And I have only ever seen it once using Nvidia cards.
    I wish I could link the post on the City of Heroes forums of every patch note saying "fixed issue with ATI graphics cards black/flickering textures" which oddly never mentioned the same problem for Nvidia.

    If anything, the issue proves that AMD engineers are content to let video game developers find workarounds, such as possibly disabling the offending features on AMD card which players would want to use if they worked, and not fix their own drivers quickly.

    5) Those "AA techniques" you mention are not boundary pushing at all. They're just more ways to make things run more efficiently and still look the same or such a small improvement that you won't notice a difference unless you have the eyes of a hawk. Every company has to "sell the hype" of any improvements, especially the small ones nobody can point at and say "it's obviously completely different".


    I am no fanboy, especially for expensive new Nvidia cards(buy last gen or their low end of the top of the line if you can), but I HATE unreliable hardware and software. AMD/ATI has always been unreliable at least half the time. That's too much of a gamble for me.

    FYI, I love PNY graphics cards, whatever their chipset is(don't know if they make AMD cards but if they do then they're the ones to buy). I stupidly plugged in 2 of them with the pc running when I noticed the extra power cable wasn't plugged in. I shorted out the PC and it reset and both still worked perfectly for years until I replaced the entire PC down the road for an upgrade. You can't beat something that "idiot proof" that I could miss the obvious(happens to everyone) twice in 15 years and not be forced to buy a whole new card or computer. And they're much cheaper than EVGA, which is touted as the top of the line.
    PNY Nvidia cards are by far the most tried and true reliable graphics cards I have found. I tried them because they were cheaper and had a 3D desktop program "back in the day" that I never used but it introduced me to a reliable manufacturer.


    P.S.
    Competitors can't be dragged down by Nvidia. If the competitors are falling behind then either their product is subpar or more expensive or everyone is stupid enough to buy hype that is more expensive every time and never give claims of "cheaper and just as good" a try. If that were true then how does Walmart or TJMax or any other company survive against a competitor that is more expensive for similar or better quality?
    Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on March 22, 2017 6:16AM
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Really ZOS, i miss the relaxing sight of waving grass...
    I've uploaded a movie to show the effect.
    Any idea if i should post a bug report @AMD or @ZOS ?

    That brings me back. I remember that issue on flat blocky walls in City of Heroes back in 2004-2012, both before and after the graphical overhaul of the game. They didn't have the tech to do grass, but good ol' AMD/ATI can't ever get rid of that glitch permanently. It must be at the heart of their driver architecture.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Hey guys, just letting you know that we're aware of this issue and are investigating solutions. Thanks!

    Any chance of an ETA on a solution for this, having just installed a new card I would like to make use of the up to date drivers but had to install the previous version as the game is unplayable with the flickering and not as nice without the grass.

    One generation old drivers should be fine anyway, unless they are missing a very specific feature that greatly improves the graphics. I honestly put off updating drivers a long time usually. I always update to the newest ones when I do update, but unless it has a new feature I don't bother with a new driver.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • baltic1284
    baltic1284
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    It isn't AMD/ATI that has caused this issue as if it was just the graphics card alone then it would effect every single game you play one way or another in some graphical way. It just affecting one game ESO from the many posts the fact the Devs haven't responded to this post with ETA and updates to me stats they don't care at all. This is a known issue with Zenimax since Beta days when players found so many issues and bugs they literally had to shut the game down to fix theme then release to be fixed and told it was fine when ALL THE SAME BUGS where still there. Trust me I was beta testing for theme and remember those days. What needs be done is updates and solutions not ignorance and ignoring the issue. IS short they need stop worrying about maintenance and start fixing EXBOX players couldn't sign they immediately got to work on that issue but not this one. AMD has already released TWO UPDATES tp there cards and from the company as I have asked theme. If it was a Graphics card issue with an update it would effect all programs and system reliant on that card. If it affecting just one game or program then it is the program and game and not the card.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    AMD releases so many updates that create issues. That was what kept me from buying a R9 295 X2 a few years ago.
    It's also what is making me cautious about going all out in buying the new Ryzen 1800x. It looks good, but AMD has lost a lot of my trust.
    Funny, because I always hear about how bad the drivers are for nVidia cards and am glad I went with AMD as I've never once encountered any of these supposed problems with it.

    A bug in 2004 recurring again in a different game on different hardware in 2017 is not a "trend" and it's not an indication of general bad quality. I've seen changelogs for nVidia stuff that make me seriously question why anyone trusts them with gaming at all.

    1) There have been tally websites recording amount of bugs/problems with all sorts of products, including graphics cards. AMD tops Nvidia by double the rate of bugs/problems that Nvidia has. It's not just "anecdotal evidence".

    Here is an easy test. Search the forums here for any mentions of "Nvidia driver bugged" and then "AMD driver bugged" and see what results you get. I just did, FYI, and although there were more pages on the Nvidia search, the first page of results actually had "solved" posts pop up for the Nvidia bugs and the ATI one comes up with a ZOS employee saying "that's an AMD driver issue, roll back your driver". LOL
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3835551#Comment_3835551

    2) A bug recurring from one game to another regardless of hardware IS an indication of general quality issues because of the simple fact that all the new drivers are still built on top of the old driver code, including the bug, so that the new cards can still run much older games.
    And the problem is really that AMD/ATI is always "the little brother". Sure, they may be cheaper and "the people's champion", but being all "me too!" with Nvidia and adding the tech later as a reverse engineered and "tweaked to avoid lawsuits" version is not going to make it work better than the one that doesn't need to "break Mickey's ear so they can't sue for it being Mickey Mouse and call it Mikey Muskrat instead".

    3) You're lucky you haven't seen this bug on your games ever. Every graphics card from every provider will eventually have a problem or two due to just age if not a malfunctioning driver/game code. I've seen this bug once on my Nvidia graphics card I had on City of Heroes, with the candy cane striped wall that was supposed to be gray but was black and white rolling stripes. And guess what? It was the game itself and quickly fixed with the next patch, no driver update or rollback needed, unlike ATI/AMD drivers every other update having this issue with some game out there while Nvidia is more reliable.


    Oh, check this quick google result out with a laundry list of games this ATI/AMD bug is affecting: https://community.amd.com/thread/193232
    FYI, the first post is December 2015 and then 3rd post shows December 2016 the same issue, and now this game today.
    This is not just this game and has nothing to do with Nvidia, which is working fine with all the same features enabled. This is obviously AMD "playing catch-up" and bringing back a big bug.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Hey guys, just letting you know that we're aware of this issue and are investigating solutions. Thanks!

    Any chance of an ETA on a solution for this, having just installed a new card I would like to make use of the up to date drivers but had to install the previous version as the game is unplayable with the flickering and not as nice without the grass.

    Not yet, but we are working with AMD to get it fixed as soon as possible. In the meantime, you can try turning down the ground clutter (or turning it off completely). It's not ideal, but will at least remove the flickering.

    ....working with AMD.... :(

    Piece of advice, keep the info on the fix for your records, as much as you can. It WILL likely "rear its ugly head" again. Hopefully you will have enough info to point to the problem area of the code next time so that it gets fixed faster, even if they can't prevent it.
    Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on March 22, 2017 6:04AM
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    I would be highly skeptical of trusting any review of AMD hardware or drivers coming from known Intel biased sources like PC World. They've been in Intel's pocket for years and show no signs of changing that.

    I've already seen way more than enough proof that Ryzen is a solid competitor for Intel from sites that don't used rigged or unrealistic benchmarks to measure performance. So as far as I'm concerned there's no reason for anyone to continue to pay the Intel tax.

    Where is the proof that they are paid by Intel?
    Nobody ever favors a good product just because they like a good product and only favors it because they are paid to, right?

    AMD has always been "cheaper". They're the Walmart of chip manufacturers. They aren't pushing the tech boundaries or making their main target the high end user and then making cheaper cards to benefit the mainstream user.
    AMD actually gave up on the high end market many years ago: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/116977-goliath-wins-amd-retreats-retrenches-and-seeks-to-reinvent-itself/3
    And this too: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/05/25/why-did-nvidia-win-the-gpu-market/#9fca71d75efa

    A company that stops pushing technology can't exactly iron out bugs with devoted and helpful intelligent users, can it? They have to rely on mass producing for a mainstream launch and sift through the mountains of feedback for more helpful feedback to fix problems.
    This is why AMD is a less reliable graphics card. They don't have the time or necessary user confidence to fix things if they are behind Nvidia to begin with and depending on a perfect mainstream launch, or avoiding customer backlash for a less than perfect launch.
    They are asking the people who are looking for reliable cheap products to pay for "a beta" and potentially pay for a full replacement they either don't want to pay or can't. Once that happens, the competition is pretty tempting.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Just because AMD didn't issue an update that fixes it doesn't mean it isn't their issue. It just means it hasn't been through the proper validation processes. Software development isn't governed by internet time. It's governed by real world time where things actually have to go through being worked on, tested, retested, then certified before actually becoming part of the next driver. That's probably something that will take 2-3 weeks minimum, not something they can spit out in an hour to satisfy the impatient.

    And yet Nvidia has the people and dedicated testing and high-end users helping to test also to be able to release fixes faster that still work well.
    The problem is AMD has become an inefficient company where the dollar signs have become big enough to interfere with the gears running the money machine. Check my other posts for links to confirmation.

    I have no doubt they will fix it, but it takes forever. This has been weeks and will likely be longer, and then come back probably in 6 months or next year also.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Pretty lame review comparing a 4.2ghz overclocked i5-3570k to a 3.0ghz 8 core Ryzen. I don't doubt my 2600K clocked to 4.5 would do the same. It actually compares better to Intel's more expensive 6/8 core CPUs, especially if using higher resolutions.

    https://pcper.com/reviews/Processors/Overclocking-AMD-Ryzen-7-1700-Real-Winner

    Yet the i5-3570k is likely a LOT cheaper considering its age. So claiming "unfair comparison" by saying "lame review" is just "burying your head in the sand".

    AMD hasn't been competitive for years.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Can we leave the AMD vs Nvidia debate out of this thread? It does nothing to contribute to assisting with the issue and is old and tired.

    Honestly, that's all this thread ever was about. It was posted in this game's forums about a driver issue that should have been posted to AMD, not here.

    The only suggestions for fixing the issue completely are these 2:
    1) Give AMD time.
    2) Buy Nvidia next time(or now if you can) and never have the issue again, or it will be fixed faster, and definitely play the game on full graphics now.

    That is why this has become about Nvidia vs AMD, because people are impatient.
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    baltic1284 wrote: »
    It isn't AMD/ATI that has caused this issue as if it was just the graphics card alone then it would effect every single game you play one way or another in some graphical way.

    1) It doesn't affect Nvidia cards right now.

    2) The ZOS post above(page 2 I think) confirms they are workign with AMD on a fix, meaning it is partially/wholly AMD's issue.

    3) Every game has a different engine, and even if they have the same they customize it. They all run graphics differently so will not always show the same issue.
    BUT, it just so happens that when this happens with AMD/ATI drivers it tends to affect multiple games often enough to throw up red flags: https://community.amd.com/thread/193232

    The evidence is pretty bad for AMD. A quick google search brought up posts on the first page from back in 2010 even: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/305511-33-flickering-texture-problem-help

    I know of personal evidence from 2005 in the game City of Heroes, where this literally came back every 2 months, but those servers and forum posts are long gone. :(
    If we wanted "challenge" in City of Heroes we would solo the content. If we wanted fun we would form a random PUG the majority of the time and just "wreck face!" feeling overpowered. That was the most fun of any game I've ever played so why does no other "newer" game design that way? I guess they like players never feeling good enough and the inevitable "max level rat/worm/insect/this-shouldn't-be-a-threatening-enemy-but-it-is" effect.
  • baltic1284
    baltic1284
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    baltic1284 wrote: »
    It isn't AMD/ATI that has caused this issue as if it was just the graphics card alone then it would effect every single game you play one way or another in some graphical way.

    1) It doesn't affect Nvidia cards right now.

    2) The ZOS post above(page 2 I think) confirms they are workign with AMD on a fix, meaning it is partially/wholly AMD's issue.

    3) Every game has a different engine, and even if they have the same they customize it. They all run graphics differently so will not always show the same issue.
    BUT, it just so happens that when this happens with AMD/ATI drivers it tends to affect multiple games often enough to throw up red flags: https://community.amd.com/thread/193232

    The evidence is pretty bad for AMD. A quick google search brought up posts on the first page from back in 2010 even: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/305511-33-flickering-texture-problem-help

    I know of personal evidence from 2005 in the game City of Heroes, where this literally came back every 2 months, but those servers and forum posts are long gone. :(

    Stop this spamming of Nvidia this or that posts in the post please I now of 6 people that have had to send those type of posts to higher folks please stop. Isn't not wanted and or isn't needed in the post right now. That is not what the post is about AMD/ATI vs Nvidia solve that on your time in your post. This is a bug report area not the General area please post there.
  • baltic1284
    baltic1284
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    IS there any more bugs that has been found and or possible sources of bugs.
  • ZOS_GinaBruno
    ZOS_GinaBruno
    Community Manager
    Just letting you all know we're still working with AMD to get this issue resolved.
    Gina Bruno
    Community Manager - The Elder Scrolls Online
    Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | Facebook | Twitter
    Staff Post
  • Enthrall
    Enthrall
    Soul Shriven
    :D cool will keep checking back. Everyone needs to relax a bit.
  • BGruchallab14_ESO
    Any ETA on this as of yet or Updates on the progress?
  • Arsedunedain
    Arsedunedain
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    Just letting you all know we're still working with AMD to get this issue resolved.

    Thanks for ZOS / AMD´s effort

    I´m suffering of it as well, running a R9 380, latest driver (17.3.3), so we just have to wait. There´ll be a solution soon, I´m sure.

    I´m disabling gras until it´s fixed even though the game looks not like the same.

  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno any news on this bug?
  • Arthmoor
    Arthmoor
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    The number of nVidia fanboys in this thread is astonishing. You people need to come up with new arguments about how bad AMD supposedly is because everything you're throwing out there is 10+ year old BS that's been debunked over and over again since.
  • baltic1284
    baltic1284
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    The number of nVidia fanboys in this thread is astonishing. You people need to come up with new arguments about how bad AMD supposedly is because everything you're throwing out there is 10+ year old BS that's been debunked over and over again since.

    I agree but ti will never end so no point in mentioning it anymore when they refuse to face current information.
  • Thermoluminescence
    The number of nVidia fanboys in this thread is astonishing. You people need to come up with new arguments about how bad AMD supposedly is because everything you're throwing out there is 10+ year old BS that's been debunked over and over again since.

    But then how would they justify to themselves how much more they pay?

    It is like first time vegans, anything that opposes their point of view is a threat.
    Art is a lie that makes us realize truth.
  • Lexcro
    Lexcro
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    17.4.1 fixes this by the looks of it.

    Just logged in, checked char screen and ran around Bleakrock with no issues.

    Get it now :smiley:
    Edited by Lexcro on April 5, 2017 7:51AM
    People deserve to be treated with respect, even on the internet.
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