Let's be honest with ourselves here.

Big zergs are here to stay, and that's a good thing. I mean, if potatoes don't group how can we all make our 1vX videos and post them on the forums?

We I see a huge zergs, first thing I think is, "how can I kill it?" If they zerged me down, who cares? Press respawn and spend less than one minute to get back to a fight.

While everyone is excoriating @Sanct16 for his statement about player skill, they are regurgitating arguments which interpret too literally interpret what his meaning was. Obviously there are circumstances which you can't control. However, players often attribute defeats to cheating, hacking, lag, whatever. This is to their own detriment, e.g. that they don't reevaluate their strategy, build, or technique, because it feeds a self reinforcing mindset.

What im worried about, is that their solution to nerfing resource managment is targeting regeneration and cost reduction only, not resource returns. Take a look at dk helping hands, take a look at redguard passive, take a look at heavy armor constitution..there are others too. If they nerf regeneration (light and medium armor) they push the meta even further into heavy armor, wich is already fairly ahead of medium and light armor.

I've been doing some smaller scale fights lately with some guildies for something different. Destro ult got kind of boring and there is something really satisfying when you time a meteor and dawnbreaker at the same time on a group of players in a smaller scale fight rather than just activating some destro ults.

Found some really fun small scale fights in IC, but find fun small scale fights in cyrodiil hard to come by. It feels like over the years cyrodiil has devolved more and more into a 'zergfest'.

I agree with sancts statement to a point, it's certainly a good mentality to have if you want to continue to improve as a player. The problem is there aren't as many opportunities in cyrodiil for smaller fights like there used to be, probably as a result of poor game balance/ crappy meta. There are also some pretty cheesy builds around which aren't very fun to fight. Might be why so many people opt to just run around zerg surfing instead.

All I can say is I'm really looking forward to battlegrounds. The few smallscale fights I've found have been a lot of fun so I think battlegrounds will be a blast.

Still want to do some larger scale cyrodiil pvp again. Interested in seeing what the warden adds to large scale pvp. Just mixing it up with differernt playstyles to keep pvp fresh atm.

Etaniel wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

You get gapclose spammed to death? -> You shouldn't have let them come into gapclose range. Why did you wait for them to catch you?
You fight 5v10 and get zerged by 20 more during the fight? -> Why didn't you a) pull the enemies away from reinforcement lines and/or b) why didn't you disengage the fight in time when you saw 20 more enemies? (It's highly unlikely that in such a situation the 20 randomly came to a spot way off the lines)
You get root spammed? -> Shouldn't be a problem if you are fighting an acceptable amount of enemies, it only *** you if you try to retreat but ideally you started kiting soon enough so you didn't let the rootspammer come close enough.
Etc.

Disengage? If by disengage you mean : not even engaging and running away, spreading out the group so that one may survive and place a camp, then I agree.
But you can't disengage just by snapping your fingers. I mean, I can see a sorc streaking away, or a nightblade using shade and cloaking away, but that's it.
You can't disengage the way your bomb group would be able to , with rapids and barrier for example. You just can't slot that.

I think it's pretty safe to say that our fights our 90% started by kiting the enemy pretty far from the travelled path, into a location we feel comfortable fighting in, never do we zerg dive and complain we got outnumbered, but it happens very often that we'll try to engage a similarly sized group and get added by 5 + stealthers, or an entire zerg will change their course to reach that small cross on the map. You can't disengage from that. Once you start a fight, you pretty much have to commit to it.

@Etaniel

With mistform and some healing wards by the Sorcs are enough for to kite as long as you don't hesitate too much. Obviously not all classes are equally good for smallscaling but that shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.

Of course my statement was a bit over the top but I stick with it - even tho there might be some situations where you really couldn't have done anything better - in almost every situation you could. The real question is what you consider a given. Everything is a long chain of actions in which a mistake made at some point might lead to a wipe in a later stage in which the wipe can't be avoided.

Not trying to be offensive but I'd consider something as basic as not using destro ults to quickly end outnumbered fights a mistake if you struggle to wipe enemies before the rest runs back.

Small scaling as AD on Trueflame must be a magical experience

Sanct16 wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Small scaling as AD on Trueflame must be a magical experience

Is this the part where you tell me ad pugs are harder to fight than ep or dc?

Iyas wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

You get gapclose spammed to death? -> You shouldn't have let them come into gapclose range. Why did you wait for them to catch you?
You fight 5v10 and get zerged by 20 more during the fight? -> Why didn't you a) pull the enemies away from reinforcement lines and/or b) why didn't you disengage the fight in time when you saw 20 more enemies? (It's highly unlikely that in such a situation the 20 randomly came to a spot way off the lines)
You get root spammed? -> Shouldn't be a problem if you are fighting an acceptable amount of enemies, it only *** you if you try to retreat but ideally you started kiting soon enough so you didn't let the rootspammer come close enough.
Etc.

Disengage? If by disengage you mean : not even engaging and running away, spreading out the group so that one may survive and place a camp, then I agree.
But you can't disengage just by snapping your fingers. I mean, I can see a sorc streaking away, or a nightblade using shade and cloaking away, but that's it.
You can't disengage the way your bomb group would be able to , with rapids and barrier for example. You just can't slot that.

I think it's pretty safe to say that our fights our 90% started by kiting the enemy pretty far from the travelled path, into a location we feel comfortable fighting in, never do we zerg dive and complain we got outnumbered, but it happens very often that we'll try to engage a similarly sized group and get added by 5 + stealthers, or an entire zerg will change their course to reach that small cross on the map. You can't disengage from that. Once you start a fight, you pretty much have to commit to it.

@Etaniel

With mistform and some healing wards by the Sorcs are enough for to kite as long as you don't hesitate too much. Obviously not all classes are equally good for smallscaling but that shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.

Of course my statement was a bit over the top but I stick with it - even tho there might be some situations where you really couldn't have done anything better - in almost every situation you could. The real question is what you consider a given. Everything is a long chain of actions in which a mistake made at some point might lead to a wipe in a later stage in which the wipe can't be avoided.

Not trying to be offensive but I'd consider something as basic as not using destro ults to quickly end outnumbered fights a mistake if you struggle to wipe enemies before the rest runs back.

lol.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

Sry but youre so far away from reality. Its not even funny anymore

Sanct16 wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

It might not be the most constructive feedback to your post. But it most certainly hits the nail on the head.

I´d have wholeheartedly agreed with you (for certain classes) up until orsinium. Ever since then a group outnumbering you and determined to kill you will do that unless you port into a keep or into a different campaign.

Disengaging is not possible against semi competent players or incompetent players vastly outnumbering you.

Getting vastly outnumbered is not avoidable anymore.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

It might not be the most constructive feedback to your post. But it most certainly hits the nail on the head.

I´d have wholeheartedly agreed with you (for certain classes) up until orsinium. Ever since then a group outnumbering you and determined to kill you will do that unless you port into a keep or into a different campaign.

Disengaging is not possible against semi competent players or incompetent players vastly outnumbering you.

Getting vastly outnumbered is not avoidable anymore.

Well, I can't agree with you.

For groups of <5 I think the best setup is to go with only mag sorcs, except maybe 1 templar. Mag sorc combines good ranged single target damage with good moveability, aswell as having the option to coordinate storms for AOE damage. Usually we go a bit on the sides of some travel line between enemy keeps and pull people away while always staying on range and focussing down the closest squishy guy. If they move towards us, we move away from them keeping distance while still ranging them down. If it's getting many we pull towards some choke and when they stack up we cast 4 storms and vaporize them. Even with otherwise fully singletarget oriented builds, 4 storms are usually enough to kill a bunch of stacked enemies. Afterwards you just clear up the survivors and start over again.

As you can see, in this playstyle there isn't really anything like "commiting" to a fight that you can't disengage from and due to sorc mobility and range, there is also no reason why you wouldn't be able to avoid getting vastly outnumbered.

The problem with this is that most groups of <5 are not building their groups for complete optimisation like you would for a raid, yes there would be group synergy of course, but most people who small scale are simply doing so with classes they feel like playing at the time. Whether it be for sake of trying builds with certain classes for variety of fights or simply be it their main and they always play no matter how royally a patch f**** them over, most small scalers I imagine care little for K:D or AP and simply play for the fun of the fights, except the fun fights are becoming so few nowadays.

And this is also where the problems lies and where Derra's point takes precedent over this comment. He mentioned the differences in classes which is ever so relevant, although I don't agree entirely with disengaging not being possible, certain scenarios yes, but there are definitely many times and opportunities where it is possible, but it is class dependant for sure and where I think your argument breaks down with this comment.

As seen from my opening statement, most groups <5 won't build for raid like optimisation, so running all sorcs wouldn't be an option, but it shouldn't be defining to have enjoyable small scale PvP anyways and even then I don't think that would be most optimised <5 Group anyways, but still your comment just for me emphasises all that is wrong with small scale PvP today.

You try to pull targets into a fight, most likely away from their groups or from a resource or anywhere where can draw attention of the bees nest, without attracting the hive, which nowadays is as laborious a task enough then whilst fighting those targets it's inevitable the lemmings will come to which you have to disengage and either pull to a chokepoint as you mentioned or simply disengage and disperse so the lemmings spread and then you are forced to re group somewhere or pick smaller fights until they either give up the chase, been killed or killed you.

Problem also being and emphasised by your comment is that PvP is so ultimate defining and has been for a long time and the need for Destro is not always a solution for small scale, but is always for when outnumbered (since by definition being outnumbered there is potentiality of a variety of classes you're fighting).

The other problem is because of player behaviour and play style on EU, mobility is paramount and that I imagine is partially Derra's reasonings for disengagement not being possible, you're a Templar or DK in small scale group being chased? You're probs not getting away if the chasers are relentless, you're a Stam NB? you're probably getting away at least from my experience.

So what alternatives are there? You play in your group format with I guess 1 healbot and 4 Destro/Negate and streak away? That format doesn't ooze small scale for me, just feels like stacking destros like a raid with a healbot lol.

Valencer wrote: »

Small scaling as AD on Trueflame must be a magical experience

solo is a better experience

Hopefully if the keep the reduced cost cp change they go back and reduce the skill costs as well to compensate. It was something like 26% increase when cp was introduced with 1.6 (could be less).

A lot of skills for both mag and stam on a few classes are just too high for both pve and pvp. It just pushes everyone into the exact same gear using less availible sets even more.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

It might not be the most constructive feedback to your post. But it most certainly hits the nail on the head.

I´d have wholeheartedly agreed with you (for certain classes) up until orsinium. Ever since then a group outnumbering you and determined to kill you will do that unless you port into a keep or into a different campaign.

Disengaging is not possible against semi competent players or incompetent players vastly outnumbering you.

Getting vastly outnumbered is not avoidable anymore.

Well, I can't agree with you.

For groups of <5 I think the best setup is to go with only mag sorcs, except maybe 1 templar. Mag sorc combines good ranged single target damage with good moveability, aswell as having the option to coordinate storms for AOE damage. Usually we go a bit on the sides of some travel line between enemy keeps and pull people away while always staying on range and focussing down the closest squishy guy. If they move towards us, we move away from them keeping distance while still ranging them down. If it's getting many we pull towards some choke and when they stack up we cast 4 storms and vaporize them. Even with otherwise fully singletarget oriented builds, 4 storms are usually enough to kill a bunch of stacked enemies. Afterwards you just clear up the survivors and start over again.

As you can see, in this playstyle there isn't really anything like "commiting" to a fight that you can't disengage from and due to sorc mobility and range, there is also no reason why you wouldn't be able to avoid getting vastly outnumbered.

So you let your templar die a lot because he can´t get away?
Also what you discribe is 100% enemies not commited to kill you.

If you meet an open field 20 man blob saving up 1templar with rememberance for every time you look at your ulti button aswell as 1 or two negates thrown on the postion where you engage whilst getting spammed with encase - then is the time we can have this talk.

Also enemies can adapt to this pretty easily and will in the end be able to simply deny you closure of a fight 100% of the time. I want to win the fight not only walk away from it with enough ap made from one coordinated destro ult dump.

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

It might not be the most constructive feedback to your post. But it most certainly hits the nail on the head.

I´d have wholeheartedly agreed with you (for certain classes) up until orsinium. Ever since then a group outnumbering you and determined to kill you will do that unless you port into a keep or into a different campaign.

Disengaging is not possible against semi competent players or incompetent players vastly outnumbering you.

Getting vastly outnumbered is not avoidable anymore.

Well, I can't agree with you.

For groups of <5 I think the best setup is to go with only mag sorcs, except maybe 1 templar. Mag sorc combines good ranged single target damage with good moveability, aswell as having the option to coordinate storms for AOE damage. Usually we go a bit on the sides of some travel line between enemy keeps and pull people away while always staying on range and focussing down the closest squishy guy. If they move towards us, we move away from them keeping distance while still ranging them down. If it's getting many we pull towards some choke and when they stack up we cast 4 storms and vaporize them. Even with otherwise fully singletarget oriented builds, 4 storms are usually enough to kill a bunch of stacked enemies. Afterwards you just clear up the survivors and start over again.

As you can see, in this playstyle there isn't really anything like "commiting" to a fight that you can't disengage from and due to sorc mobility and range, there is also no reason why you wouldn't be able to avoid getting vastly outnumbered.

simply be it their main and they always play no matter how royally a patch f**** them over, most small scalers I imagine care little for K:D or AP and simply play for the fun of the fights, except the fun fights are becoming so few nowadays.

My group plays our mains, which all happen to be nightblades, there's 3 of us 2 stam 1 mag. We play for fun but we definitely won't hesitate to get some tasty d-ticks, but the fun fights lately have been rare, most fights end up with us beating on a healbot until a Zerg comes or us beating on a healbot for 5 minutes then killing it and seeing it again 2 minutes later, I miss the days when we could be chased for 20 minutes with fun skirmishes the whole time with it ending with us eventually getting cornered and either winning or losing and taking many bags to the face

Lore_lai wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

So you let your templar die a lot because he can´t get away?

OMG! I was actually saying the same thing in guild chat in regards to the comments in this thread.
Okay guys - all we need is one sacrificial Templar for our SorcScale group. Anyone want to volunteer?
>_>
<_<
Don't loot at me pls...

LOL... don't look at me either, I'm already usually the slow fat kid in the back getting hammered while someone gets away to put up a camp.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Small scaling as AD on Trueflame must be a magical experience

Is this the part where you tell me ad pugs are harder to fight than ep or dc?

Have you looked at the Trueflame populations in the off-hours the past... 6 months? You really think youre facing the same numbers?

Im glad you guys are having fun with your all-sorc groups. Magicka sorcs are top of the food chain now for sure, but youre not going to have much fun when you get 15v1'd by people spamming gap closers, eye of the storm, negate, soul assault, meteor, resource poisons, viper, tremorscale, velidreth, curse and backlash on you while they have 5 heavy armour healbots slamming down the BoL key in case you try to fight back... as a stamina char or maybe even a magicka DK/NB.

That theyve been gradually patching counterplay out of this game shouldnt come as news to you.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

It might not be the most constructive feedback to your post. But it most certainly hits the nail on the head.

I´d have wholeheartedly agreed with you (for certain classes) up until orsinium. Ever since then a group outnumbering you and determined to kill you will do that unless you port into a keep or into a different campaign.

Disengaging is not possible against semi competent players or incompetent players vastly outnumbering you.

Getting vastly outnumbered is not avoidable anymore.

Well, I can't agree with you.

For groups of <5 I think the best setup is to go with only mag sorcs, except maybe 1 templar. Mag sorc combines good ranged single target damage with good moveability, aswell as having the option to coordinate storms for AOE damage. Usually we go a bit on the sides of some travel line between enemy keeps and pull people away while always staying on range and focussing down the closest squishy guy. If they move towards us, we move away from them keeping distance while still ranging them down. If it's getting many we pull towards some choke and when they stack up we cast 4 storms and vaporize them. Even with otherwise fully singletarget oriented builds, 4 storms are usually enough to kill a bunch of stacked enemies. Afterwards you just clear up the survivors and start over again.

As you can see, in this playstyle there isn't really anything like "commiting" to a fight that you can't disengage from and due to sorc mobility and range, there is also no reason why you wouldn't be able to avoid getting vastly outnumbered.

We are playing completely different games. AP or kill counts mean nothing to me, never have, never will. The only reason for me pvping is the rewarding feeling I get out of the quality of the fight, not the quantity of enemies I kill. A bomb/raid setup (or a mini version of it, like you described) with stacked destro ults is not smallscale and does not yield any satisfaction to me no matter how successful since it downgrades the quality of a fight to a successful bomb.

Why would I ever take the chance of having good fights away from my opponents, my allies and myself with aligned rinse-repeat destro nuking when those good fights are the major defining factor of me having fun?

Amen.