josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

It's hard to discuss the value of regen and cost reduction without knowing what is going on with the base cost of abilities.

Before One Tamriel, the base cost for abilities scaled up with every level and vet rank. Now they are a flat value for everyone, and are reduced as you add CP into cost reduction. (This began with changes to battle level that happened back in Orisinium, but that's another discussion.)

You can still see look at the formulas for former base costs using the excellent UESP EsoSkills tool. Also see here.

As you can see, the current base costs at cp160 (formerly known as VR16) were increased by 29% across the board over the level 50 base costs.

So the ability base costs were already increased to counterbalance the introduction of cost-reduction and regen passives. Everyone who is talking about sustain being too easy is overlooking that fact. I mentioned this in the discussion of no cp campaigns recently, but it seems relevant here as well.

With the removal of Veteran Ranks, there is no more VR16. We are all simply Level 50. The "removal" of vet ranks was done in such a way that 10cp = 1 VR up to 160cp. It made converting the systems easy, as there really are still vet ranks, they're just baked into the CP system.

What we could be seeing is the removal of the final vestiges (pun intended) of the VR system. A lot of people have been dreading the possibility of gear cap increase. Right now the cp cap can be raised without affecting gear, since gear stops at cp160 (aka VR16). But this really doesn't make any sense in context of a VR-less CP system.

Maybe with Morrowind, gear (and food, and everything else) will scale to CP cap, allowing you to get more recovery that way. This would be a dreadful situation unless there were some system added to upgrade existing gear to the new cap. But assuming we don't have to farm all new gear, I actually think full scaling and remove of the old VR16 cap would make sense. And that kind of change would require reworking those regen passives.

The base recovery values and possible changes to gear sets are also factors. Right now, base recovery is 514. The formula is based only on level, and does not take into account CP rank. If base recovery scaled up with CP in a 10-to-1 vet rank style, base recovery would be 1100 at cp630.

They (and with they I mean Gina Bruno) definitely said there will be NO gear cap increase with Morrowind or in the near future.

And if they ever do it, they would HAVE to include a way to upgrade your gear, because otherwise, PvE and PvP will be empty. I'm not grinding all that gear again.

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Lots of self-proclaimed solo-/smallscale experts here who have never actually commited to that playstyle but insist on telling others how it works. Eye-opener for sure.

ToRelax wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Here's a truth about small scale: If you commit yourself to a fight, you can die. There are entirely too many factors, some of which you have no control over whatsoever, that even the most skilled player could survive every encounter.

No, if you want to improve, push your limits and learn from your mistakes. If you always win your fights easily or run, you will never learn to overcome the odds you are avoiding.

Surprising hearing this from you. I'm going to assume you just wrote what was on your mind, because I know well enough you seek out challenges like any good player keen to improve, whatever number of people you run with.

@ToRelax
I didn't say that you should never seek challenging fights - neither did I say you should always run away. However the most important thing about making a small group work is to pick your fights wisely. If you fight outnumbered being able to plan ahead how the fight might develope and act proactively is a very important skill that many players seem to forget about.

I agree that you should push your limits. However you need to know your limits - if you try to fight 30 enemies with a 5 man group face to face that isn't pushing your limit, it's just pugish behaviour that should lead to death and in no way justifies complaining about getting zerged.

You get gapclose spammed to death? -> You shouldn't have let them come into gapclose range. Why did you wait for them to catch you?
You fight 5v10 and get zerged by 20 more during the fight? -> Why didn't you a) pull the enemies away from reinforcement lines and/or b) why didn't you disengage the fight in time when you saw 20 more enemies? (It's highly unlikely that in such a situation the 20 randomly came to a spot way off the lines)
You get root spammed? -> Shouldn't be a problem if you are fighting an acceptable amount of enemies, it only *** you if you try to retreat but ideally you started kiting soon enough so you didn't let the rootspammer come close enough.
Etc.

My orginal comment was of course and exeggaration. What I tried to say was that people should look at deaths more as a chance to improve rather than how bad the game is. There is hardly a fight that we lose where I would say we played perfectly.

I'm just getting tired of players making excuses instead of just looking for what they could do better. No, they just assume they did everything perfect - even when they didn't - and complain how skillless the game is.

@Mojomonkeyman
Sure, I'm not fully commited to smallscale, I prefer playing in raids but I have still played my fair share of 3-6 man groups which I believe qualifies as smallscale. I don't see how this is relevant tho regardin what I said, maybe playing both different playstyles gives me some more insight on how to pick fights based on your group size or just some more objectivity or maybe even what classes to pick for a good group setup - not sure how to explain otherwise that I never encounter any of the problems everyone else is complaining about.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

If the food respawns and comes flying back on horseback while also bringing along a second a second and third menue, cheeseplate and desert it´s hardly the guy having a feast to blame.
The bites just don´t end because there is no penalty for being eaten - so they´ve learned to gorge you by just coming around often enough.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

So if I'm solo, and a 24-man group spots me and chases me halfway across the map, I bit off more than I could chew? If I pick a 1v1 and the player just perms-blocks until his 12 buddies show, I bit off more than I could chew? Not to mention latency, bugs, FPS, imbalance.

Come on, the statement I was responding to was ridiculous. No, it's not your fault every time you die, unless it's simply your fault that you don't want to run in a large raid, which is terrible logic.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

If the food respawns and comes flying back on horseback while also bringing along a second a second and third menue, cheeseplate and desert it´s hardly the guy having a feast to blame.
The bites just don´t end because there is no penalty for being eaten - so they´ve learned to gorge you by just coming around often enough.

I mean you don't have to stick to the same spot you killed them at, move around and find others to kill. Most of the time when you get zerged down its because you put yourself in a position to be zerged, I find that trying to single handily hold a trans line is a pretty poor decision.

I think you don´t understand.

The fight literally never ends. We constantly move into one direction away from the zerg/enemy respawn.

It´s not unusual to start a fight between brk sej and have it end at the IC bridge with us dead - because people place camps or just ride back and point out position in zone chat with us never being able to disengange because we constantly fight and kill people.

Saying you can get avoid getting zerged down if the enemy wants to zerg you just shows you have no idea of
a) playing smallscale in a wellknown group over years
b) how tryhardy the eu server is

The only remedy to this behavior is retreating to ones own faction.

I have been chased by full raids literally dozens of times.

Not engaged with them, they might see me finishing up a fight or just not in stealth and they will spend 5+ minutes chasing down one sorc who wasn't even engaged with them.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I have been chased by full raids literally dozens of times.

Not engaged with them, they might see me finishing up a fight or just not in stealth and they will spend 5+ minutes chasing down one sorc who wasn't even engaged with them.

Brutal, are you the guy that posts rants in zone or sends the rage tells that might bring you that kind of agro? If not that's *** man.

Nope, just boiler-plate Xv1. I don't send tells, don't talk in zone (but don't know how that would relate to opponents). I find it weird that you find it so unusual, do you play solo often?

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I have been chased by full raids literally dozens of times.

Not engaged with them, they might see me finishing up a fight or just not in stealth and they will spend 5+ minutes chasing down one sorc who wasn't even engaged with them.

I've noticed two things that are like catnip to zergs - streaking or mistforming away. This triggers some primitive chase instinct in the herd. Further study on this phenomenon is required.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

So if I'm solo, and a 24-man group spots me and chases me halfway across the map, I bit off more than I could chew? If I pick a 1v1 and the player just perms-blocks until his 12 buddies show, I bit off more than I could chew? Not to mention latency, bugs, FPS, imbalance.

Come on, the statement I was responding to was ridiculous. No, it's not your fault every time you die, unless it's simply your fault that you don't want to run in a large raid, which is terrible logic.

I've been chased by a zerg before and I've been the zerg chasing before, but this seems ridiculous, I have never seen a 24 man legitimately chase a solo halfway across the map, most die long before that. It's a shame if you rode over a hill or something into a 24 man but in most cases you can see the zerg from pretty far away and change course, if you choose to engage a 24 man by yourself the that's all on you.

Derra wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

If the food respawns and comes flying back on horseback while also bringing along a second a second and third menue, cheeseplate and desert it´s hardly the guy having a feast to blame.
The bites just don´t end because there is no penalty for being eaten - so they´ve learned to gorge you by just coming around often enough.

I mean you don't have to stick to the same spot you killed them at, move around and find others to kill. Most of the time when you get zerged down its because you put yourself in a position to be zerged, I find that trying to single handily hold a trans line is a pretty poor decision.

I think you don´t understand.

The fight literally never ends. We constantly move into one direction away from the zerg/enemy respawn.

It´s not unusual to start a fight between brk sej and have it end at the IC bridge with us dead - because people place camps or just ride back and point out position in zone chat with us never being able to disengange because we constantly fight and kill people.

Saying you can get avoid getting zerged down if the enemy wants to zerg you just shows you have no idea of
a) playing smallscale in a wellknown group over years
b) how tryhardy the eu server is

The only remedy to this behavior is retreating to ones own faction.

Must be an EU thing, we have lots of zergs on NA but its very rare to have them chase you very far, you usually either die pretty quick or they get bored. The exception to that is the small scale and "solo" players who are unnecessarily hostile towards people who play in a zerg (seriously, grow up children) or the massive hypocrites who's "small" group is balls deep in a faction zerg, and tbh most of those people deserve every bit of zerg agro they get.

Comparing your tone to the others in this thread, you seem to spread much more aggression than any smallscaler I´ve met. I can only assume you have a grudge with some individuals, who (in your world) represent entire playstyles and now you are throwing stones against anyone who could fall into said playstyle category.

Please take your own advice, keep your hostility to yourself and stop throwing around condescending posts based on assumptions. Every single one of your posts here includes at least one insult or accusation (just taking the one I quoted you can find gems like "children", hypocrites"), which makes you look 1) very biased and 2) not very smart.

Self-reflection is a very underrated virtue.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

So if I'm solo, and a 24-man group spots me and chases me halfway across the map, I bit off more than I could chew? If I pick a 1v1 and the player just perms-blocks until his 12 buddies show, I bit off more than I could chew? Not to mention latency, bugs, FPS, imbalance.

Come on, the statement I was responding to was ridiculous. No, it's not your fault every time you die, unless it's simply your fault that you don't want to run in a large raid, which is terrible logic.

I've been chased by a zerg before and I've been the zerg chasing before, but this seems ridiculous, I have never seen a 24 man legitimately chase a solo halfway across the map, most die long before that. It's a shame if you rode over a hill or something into a 24 man but in most cases you can see the zerg from pretty far away and change course, if you choose to engage a 24 man by yourself the that's all on you.

Derra wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Seeing the possible cp changes and the warden passives and base skills its obvious that certain classes without MAJOR buffs will simply not be competitive. The warden alone takes the best of every class and wraps it into one.

I understand the need for pushing for more Morrowind sales but how can you even begin to say Warden is balanced with all that it offers.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't they make the new shiny class totally OP to get more people into/back into the game? It's a an awful balance decision, but we all know that profits matter much more that balance to ZOS.

Sanct16 wrote: »

The problem with smallscale in this game isn't that it isn't possible. The problem is that everyone is expecting everything to come for free. People aren't willing to improve, they rather assume they are good and therefore should be able to win every fight no matter how poorly they pick their fight.

Let me tell you a simple truth about smallscale: Every single death is because you made a mistake. Improve.

Someone is out of touch with reality.

Biting off more than you can chew is a mistake

If the food respawns and comes flying back on horseback while also bringing along a second a second and third menue, cheeseplate and desert it´s hardly the guy having a feast to blame.
The bites just don´t end because there is no penalty for being eaten - so they´ve learned to gorge you by just coming around often enough.

I mean you don't have to stick to the same spot you killed them at, move around and find others to kill. Most of the time when you get zerged down its because you put yourself in a position to be zerged, I find that trying to single handily hold a trans line is a pretty poor decision.

I think you don´t understand.

The fight literally never ends. We constantly move into one direction away from the zerg/enemy respawn.

It´s not unusual to start a fight between brk sej and have it end at the IC bridge with us dead - because people place camps or just ride back and point out position in zone chat with us never being able to disengange because we constantly fight and kill people.

Saying you can get avoid getting zerged down if the enemy wants to zerg you just shows you have no idea of
a) playing smallscale in a wellknown group over years
b) how tryhardy the eu server is

The only remedy to this behavior is retreating to ones own faction.

Must be an EU thing, we have lots of zergs on NA but its very rare to have them chase you very far, you usually either die pretty quick or they get bored. The exception to that is the small scale and "solo" players who are unnecessarily hostile towards people who play in a zerg (seriously, grow up children) or the massive hypocrites who's "small" group is balls deep in a faction zerg, and tbh most of those people deserve every bit of zerg agro they get.

Comparing your tone to the others in this thread, you seem to spread much more aggression than any smallscaler I´ve met. I can only assume you have a grudge with some individuals, who (in your world) represent entire playstyles and now you are throwing stones against anyone who could fall into said playstyle category.

Please take your own advice, keep your hostility to yourself and stop throwing around condescending posts based on assumptions. Every single one of your posts here includes at least one insult or accusation (just taking the one I quoted you can find gems like "children", hypocrites"), which makes you look 1) very biased and 2) not very smart.

Self-reflection is a very underrated virtue.

Oh come on, I'm sure you can do better than saying I'm not very smart!

I have very little bias on the subject, as stated previously in this thread I play in small groups and large groups regularly so I see and understand the very valid concerns of both play styles. As @HoloYoitsu pointed out, there is a very big difference between hostility and sarcasm, though sometimes it can be hard to pick up on tone through text, understandable.

And if you really take exception to anything I said feel free to explain to me how its not childish to trash people based on the size of their group and how its not hypocritical to go around the game and forums constantly speaking negatively of large groups, and further specific guilds, while at the same time stacking one's own "small group" in the middle of a faction zerg?

People will obviously disagree with what @Sanct16 said, there seems to be a desperate need to keep up the illusion that small scale PvP is the only thing that requires skill in this game. But when we regularly see threads pop up looking to do things like debuff groups based on size, there is a vocal bunch that clearly wants everything handed to them, thus diminishing the skill required.

Ever since the great one Maubee got banned, I haven't been chased halfway across the map as much as I use to. Man do I miss that guy. His group chasing me has lead to some of the most exciting fights I've ever had. I can only speak for myself but I enjoy being chased by many.

I had a guy chase my sorc a bit after I killed a guy near him, stop and turn around till a large group of 12 or so caught up then mount up and all of them chase me down *grin*