bowmanz607 wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima online 25 years ago, and devs just can't leave *** alone. They keep nerfing a game until you don't even recognize it anymore. I'm so dam tired of this.

techinically they buffed it with cp to where we dont recognize it anymore. Getting rid of cp is the real answer. but we know that wont happen.

No if you remove cp at this point the game will be completely unplayable until they balance every little thing to the changes and that takes months.
They just have to balance the cp better.

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

bunnydaisuki wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Are these changes absolut or just in the testing? I mean, some endgame players that´s been talking to the staff must have something to say about this? I know some players have good contact with some of the devsand I beg you to state that these changes are a terrible idea.

For the moment, it looks like 'just in testing'.

The problem with said 'testing' is this is likely based off Streamer feedback. Streamers are notorious for being above the adverage skill level of most players, and are thus, not the best testing audience.

From the point of view of a developer, the best way to get opinion andf feedback from majority of the players is via PTS. Then again, they don't really change anything major after implementing in PTS, so yea... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

PTS is not the best way to evaluate these changes. Even if you ignore that only PC players can use the PTS I'm pretty sure that only a very, very tiny minority of the player base is using it. Presenting/testing on a show is actually not a bad way to test it, but from what I've read they were only testing the Battlegrounds at PAX.

Random chance decided one of those reading this post (me) is a software developer. Not just that: a developer heavily invested into debugging, unit testing, software development cycle and release to public.

Skipping the whole CEO => economic choices considerations, basically it works like this: choices are made at high level to keep or increase revenue and they trickle down the company ranks in various forms (game producer, distributor and many other branches). On the most "visible" level, we have one or more guys towards the lowest third of the company rank deciding about game design. Game designer(s) discuss about how to meet the upper ranks requests by implementing or updating gameplay. They decide if we could use some content or another (not if we'll get a new expansion, this is decided above their level), and how the player should experience the trip from today to the objective they want.

They might implement a couple of forums / top players / websites suggestions, after they have been massively filtered by the community managers, but those suggestions are usually adjusters, not drivers.

Once they came to a decision, they talk to each production studio(s) / internal branch lead people, who manage various game aspects: media, cinematics, software development etc. In turn, team leaders working for them, get directions and dispatch them to their teams. Lead programmers will lead software teams of 4-9 developers (*) and create the game code.

(*) Nota Bene: every company is different, some will have less or more "layers", different ways to manage teams and teams numbers and so on.

After game code has been created and tested on internal servers, it's uploaded to a PTS.
As you can see, there has been no "end user" feedback or input in the whole process until now, save for those little "hints" brought in by community managers.

A small amount of players - usually the achievers from top guilds - shall actually test the PTS.
This naturally skews feedback towards top guilds, of course. Moreover, they will tend to not report unintended features and bugs that help them to success.

Often, some top gamer or blogger posts something about the PTS and at this point "hell breaks loose".
If there's some very negative feedback, the software team(s) will apply some small fixes. Everything has been decided and set in stone months ago, therefore complaining at PTS is close to pointless.

To repeat myself from above: once something gets to PTS, the big decisions have been done, you'll only see some small adjustments and nothing more.

kalimar44 wrote: »

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima online 25 years ago, and devs just can't leave *** alone. They keep nerfing a game until you don't even recognize it anymore. I'm so dam tired of this.

I hear you bro! I am on your same boat!

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Omg we can't sustain in heavy any more awwwww the sky is falling!!!!!!! Get a grip people.

Also, stop acting like you all ready entitled to a response just because a thread goes for a little while. They owe you no response. They are still working their own stiff out.

God such a sense of entitlement.

Classic person attempting to shut down the discussion for the sheer sake that they dont like the discussion.

@bowmanz607 Dont come here if you dont like it. We wont stop.

PS: No one is talking about Heavy armor alone. These changes, combined with current costs will mean it will be near impossible to sustain yourself without regular potions unless they lower costs or buff armor passives. You walked in here with preconcieved notions and didn't bother to read. Leave. No one needs an ill informed *** making a mess of things here.

Except not true at all. That was not my only post. I also posted that I was happy about the change and why. This post you quoted was my second and was targeted at people yelling about sustain. Sustain is not an issue really at all in this game. Resources is the least of anyone's worries. You run full Dagens sets with damage glyphs with heavy because of CP cost reduction.

And no, it simply means adjusting your build around a bit. Sustain is not going to disappear because of this it aimply.makes you think about your resource managment. Something this game has been missing for some time.

You don't do end game Vet Trials do you?? Sustain is a huge issue in them!!!

There is a major difference between the damage output of players just learning vet trials and working on their rotations compared to those players who take the time and learn and change their builds accordingly.

If you replace 2-3 well versed trials players with those whom have never ran one before (or don't exactly meet 18k-20k+ dps), you can really feel it. You'll die a heck of a lot more, especially on certain bosses which are there as a dps race due to game mechanics like rage that will wipe your group in seconds.

You can't base resource management by doing Normal Trials, because they are a cake walk compared to Vet Trials.

Players who say they have no problem with 4 man dungeons and their resource management and won't have an issue with this change, don't realize they are not playing end game content. Of course you don't have resource management issues in them! (Cradle of Shadows of course may be the exception). They are a stepping stone to prepare you for mechanics you will face in End Game Raids.

How many people on here are whining about the tanks tankiness due to CP, are pvp players? Probably most of you.
But you guys don't realize the resource management that's required for tanks in End Game Vet Trials!! Try taking your tank and skills into VetAA and taking 5-6 axes and then come back and tell me about your unlimited resources!

Try being one of maybe 2 (if lucky) stamina users running in a trial, who doesn't receive any "bonuses" from other players sets to help boost resource cost reduction or regen rate and tell me how well you do with your resource management. Why do you think most players only take Magicka users into trials?

ZOS made a huge mistake when they created this game by using the engine they did and coding things in a way that they can not seperate the PVP and PVE systems. They really need to get someone in there to go back to the very beginning and utterly create a new gaming engine that will not only allow these things, but will also fix the FPS issues and allow the game to evolve.

As for the CP system; Take it completely out of ALL PVP!! Put every one on an even playing field at max level. Then it is only your skill as a player that determines whether you win or not (unless you are one of those players still using cheat engine).
The most whining in this game comes out of PVP players feeling like they are not on an even playing field with others and dying all the time. Taking CP out of the equation then makes it a L2P better issue.

As for PVE, where the majority of these changes are going to hurt players, they need to keep the CP otherwise players are not going to feel like they are progressing at all and will just find another game to play. I know I'm damn tired of being taken 3 steps back from where I was with each major update lately. It makes me not want to play any more.

There is no regen issue in PVE!!! Over the last year the cost of skills has been raised, regen has already been reduced and balanced. The CP tree actually allows players to balance between damage and regen if they so choose to do so. PLUS, the end game trials bosses etc have all been balanced around high end elite Trials guilds use of the CP tree. The Devs would have to go back and rework all of these to compensate for what they are taking away.

I'm kind of thinking that the removal of the resources in the CP tree is a way for ZOS to be able to force an increase in Armor level onto us to CP180 (an unpopular idea right now), because that will be the ONLY way we might get some of those resources back and be able to complete the content we can currently do.

Another mistake ZOS has been making, and they "say" they invited a range of different type of players to HQ to give them input on the changes, but frankly, I don't believe that.
Devs need to be holding meetings over Teamspeak with a variety of gaming guilds to get as much input as they can over a 1 week period. Two days for Trade Guild input. Two days for PVP Guild input, and Two days for PVE Guild input.
(Can be broken up into 1 day per week for a meeting with a set number of guilds so as to not completely interfere with game development.)

Applications for Guild participation would have to put in to ZOS ahead of time and from there they would take a look at the guilds to see how active they are, (not necessarily how popular), what the guild does as a group in game and how often, in addition to how large. They would then choose something like 20-25 guilds total from each of the three focuses to meet with for 45 minutes.

Those Guilds chosen, would then have 1 month to talk to their members and create a Google Document with all player concerns, suggestions, etc with points as to why they feel this way, or with evidence to prove point. This also allows time so those attending can go to their other guilds to get their input if those guilds are not participating. This document would need to be sent into ZOS 1 week prior to the meeting so they have it in preparation and can make notes they may wish to address during said meeting.

The purpose of the meetings would not be to whine and question any attending DEV as to why they changed something, or to kiss butt (as often happens), but to give direct input and concerns regarding what affects their player base and the direction they feel the game is going. Things during the discussion would need to be kept concise and to the point (hence the Google Doc made to hand over to the Devs). Only the Guild Leader and 3 additional guild members would particpate in the guild meeting, so as to keep things simple for every one. Only one Dev and maybe an intern, or even Gina would need to participate in the meeting at any one time, so it's not taking any major development from the game. Maybe even Rich would perhaps consider participating in place of a DEV.

Doing this, I feel would allow ZOS to get a MUCH better idea of where the state of the game is with it's players. It would also allow many, many people feel like they are actually being heard in regards to the game.

I'm very aware there have been meetings with guilds in the past, BUT from what I've seen of those participating, the guilds who participated were primarily PVP or Big Name Trade Guilds, and many of the other members who were part of those guilds who brought ideas and concers forward that affected PVE play or trials had their ideas shut out because it didn't affect PVP or the Guild's ability to make gold.

Yeah, yeah, it's nothing more than a pipe dream! But it would go a long way to fixing the rift that's been created between the Community and the ZOS devs over the last year. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

While none of us know the complete picture in terms of changes to the CP tree right now, the very discussion happening here shows a major concern by a number of players. We know that ZOS is going to have to balance these changes, and somehow compensate for them, but we don't know how they are going to be doing that.
But the big question by everyone, that is not being answered, is WHY these changes are being made! It sure in the hell is not for the benefit of PVE or End Game players! It hurts them severely. And if these changes are being made for the sake of PVP, then just take CP out of all PVP/Battlegrounds!! These type of changes is what actually creates a lot of hate between players of the two game styles and will only reinforce that.

Hell if anything they have buffed every major playstyle imaginable...well except main/ dual bow builds, those guys are screwed. You still see every playstyle in cyrodil some more than others but they are there.

Oh ok, so this is also a direct nerf to blazing tank builds...you got me on two XD

Vahrokh wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

bunnydaisuki wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Are these changes absolut or just in the testing? I mean, some endgame players that´s been talking to the staff must have something to say about this? I know some players have good contact with some of the devsand I beg you to state that these changes are a terrible idea.

For the moment, it looks like 'just in testing'.

The problem with said 'testing' is this is likely based off Streamer feedback. Streamers are notorious for being above the adverage skill level of most players, and are thus, not the best testing audience.

From the point of view of a developer, the best way to get opinion andf feedback from majority of the players is via PTS. Then again, they don't really change anything major after implementing in PTS, so yea... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

PTS is not the best way to evaluate these changes. Even if you ignore that only PC players can use the PTS I'm pretty sure that only a very, very tiny minority of the player base is using it. Presenting/testing on a show is actually not a bad way to test it, but from what I've read they were only testing the Battlegrounds at PAX.

Random chance decided one of those reading this post (me) is a software developer. Not just that: a developer heavily invested into debugging, unit testing, software development cycle and release to public.

Skipping the whole CEO => economic choices considerations, basically it works like this: choices are made at high level to keep or increase revenue and they trickle down the company ranks in various forms (game producer, distributor and many other branches). On the most "visible" level, we have one or more guys towards the lowest third of the company rank deciding about game design. Game designer(s) discuss about how to meet the upper ranks requests by implementing or updating gameplay. They decide if we could use some content or another (not if we'll get a new expansion, this is decided above their level), and how the player should experience the trip from today to the objective they want.

They might implement a couple of forums / top players / websites suggestions, after they have been massively filtered by the community managers, but those suggestions are usually adjusters, not drivers.

Once they came to a decision, they talk to each production studio(s) / internal branch lead people, who manage various game aspects: media, cinematics, software development etc. In turn, team leaders working for them, get directions and dispatch them to their teams. Lead programmers will lead software teams of 4-9 developers (*) and create the game code.

(*) Nota Bene: every company is different, some will have less or more "layers", different ways to manage teams and teams numbers and so on.

After game code has been created and tested on internal servers, it's uploaded to a PTS.
As you can see, there has been no "end user" feedback or input in the whole process until now, save for those little "hints" brought in by community managers.

A small amount of players - usually the achievers from top guilds - shall actually test the PTS.
This naturally skews feedback towards top guilds, of course. Moreover, they will tend to not report unintended features and bugs that help them to success.

Often, some top gamer or blogger posts something about the PTS and at this point "hell breaks loose".
If there's some very negative feedback, the software team(s) will apply some small fixes. Everything has been decided and set in stone months ago, therefore complaining at PTS is close to pointless.

To repeat myself from above: once something gets to PTS, the big decisions have been done, you'll only see some small adjustments and nothing more.

If they think about economic the most obvious solution would be to boost CP powers so casuals feels more powerful over time even if just using snipe. This keep them happy and let them progress trough content.
Add more on top to keep them playing, also add distractions, add that far from all do dungeons.
The worst possible thing you could do would be an global nerf of players.
Way worse than adding pay to win who at lest give and short term boost in earnings.
Note that WOW have lived well with an insane power scaling, old raiding gear is worse then quest rewards after an expansion.

So forget economic, the top players and streamers are important as ambassadors so make some hard raids, perhaps add an extra difficulty level on dungeons with better rewards. Most are happy.

No forget economic, the rest of the analyze I agree in, however changes is not made because of economic but because of the vision of the game designers. Its an good thing to keep this separate in general to avoid play to win settings.
However the game designs might well want to make streamers happy and not thinking that this could cause 20% of players to quit.
The been counters would not be happy, sometimes the been counters are our friends.

Again the rest of the analyze I agree on.

Silence speaks volumes.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

But the truth is, the vast majority of Players in this and every other MMO are the silent Casual.

And they won't want to invest hundreds of hours to rebuild a character that they only casually play. They'll just go play some other game where their character DOES work.

That's what this arbitrary removal of the Cost reduction and Sustain CP constellation nodes will do, and no MMORPG, especially ESO, can take that type of population hit.

I have done exactly that. ZOS had ubernerfed my class and made my gear pointless in one sweep, I quit for 2 years.
Playing SWTOR, EA has made my class crap, utterly crap, unplayable regardless of gear, so I re-quit SWTOR for the next year.

Considering I pay 6 months subs, they lose a nice chunk of money.

But hey, if they want to brown nose some elite streamer, I hope the streamer will pay them more than 10000 like me who quit!

Vahrokh wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

But the truth is, the vast majority of Players in this and every other MMO are the silent Casual.

And they won't want to invest hundreds of hours to rebuild a character that they only casually play. They'll just go play some other game where their character DOES work.

That's what this arbitrary removal of the Cost reduction and Sustain CP constellation nodes will do, and no MMORPG, especially ESO, can take that type of population hit.

I have done exactly that. ZOS had ubernerfed my class and made my gear pointless in one sweep, I quit for 2 years.
Playing SWTOR, EA has made my class crap, utterly crap, unplayable regardless of gear, so I re-quit SWTOR for the next year.

Considering I pay 6 months subs, they lose a nice chunk of money.

But hey, if they want to brown nose some elite streamer, I hope the streamer will pay them more than 10000 like me who quit!

This, played an shaman back in WOW cataclysm, managed to get the trial set who let me keep the fire elemental up most of the time, think sorcerer storm elemental, one week later, they removed the effect because of an new content update and they could not let the new set be worse.
Never played wow again.
Part of the reason I stopped playing ESO in 2015 was sorcerer nerfs, yes to be honest it was combined with the push for doing 3 undaunted pledges a day to. Did hell ra citadel but not SO, one dungeon we did not manage.
Nowdays I have problem in normal dungeons.
An nerf would be as welcome as an 100% tax increase.
No plan of per-ordering Morrowind, might be an 0-day purchase like FO4

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

Dao_Jones wrote: »

My guess? If they go through with this it will bother the crap out of the top ~20% of players (who need every ounce of performance to do the content they do) and the bottom 20% (who need every bit of help they can get just to play), while the remaining 60% will likely say "meh", adjust accordingly, and move on with their gaming lives.

I'm neither a top player nor someone who needs every possible buff just to play. Would I still be able to function in-game after this change? Yes, probably. But I've invested a lot of time and effort (and quite a few resources) into making my characters as good as I could (even though they're nowhere near in the same league as the top players) and I will be highly annoyed seeing them get bumped down to an ineffective level, essentially making my hard work useless.

This nerf will suck a bit, but I think people are greatly over stating their case.
You're losing SOME regen and skills will cost a LITTLE bit more.

It will hurt the very top, mostly because they have very carefully adjusted their builds to put out as much damage as possible while BARELY not running out of resources. If the fight ends and they have 80% resources then to them it means they could do more damage.

The rest of us will fall somewhere between "I seem to run out of resources a little bit quicker in long fights, but I was doing that already because I just spam the skills" and "did they change something? I have 2k magi regen and most of my damage comes from heavy attacks"

I mean, think of how many threads have been posted in the last month complaining about bow users who just light attack spam through pugs. Does anyone think those "casuals" are going to notice even remotely?

@Nebthet78 Has hit the nail on the head in identifying the people who will be affected by this change, and it's possible that ZoS will need to re-balance some of the Vet Trials. Mind you, I can remember pretty much exactly the same complaints and comments from exactly the same section of the community when stam regen while blocking was removed, so I take it with a grain of salt.

The CP tree actually allows players to balance between damage and regen if they so choose to do so.

this however is blatantly untrue. Damage and sustain are in different sections of the CP trees. You get to take all the sustain and all the damage from CP. In fact the only "choices" you make are between increase DOT damage vs increase Crit damage.

The current CP structure is about choosing between stamina or magi, NOT damage and sustain, which is what I personally disagree with.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima online 25 years ago, and devs just can't leave *** alone. They keep nerfing a game until you don't even recognize it anymore. I'm so dam tired of this.

techinically they buffed it with cp to where we dont recognize it anymore. Getting rid of cp is the real answer. but we know that wont happen.

If they remove CP I will leave the game. There would be absolutely no progression system. It would make the game very shallow and short lived.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

This nerf will suck a bit, but I think people are greatly over stating their case.
You're losing SOME regen and skills will cost a LITTLE bit more.

It will hurt the very top, mostly because they have very carefully adjusted their builds to put out as much damage as possible while BARELY not running out of resources. If the fight ends and they have 80% resources then to them it means they could do more damage.

No, it does not hurt just "the very top".

Despite I am not in a top world guild at all, I have about CP 400. I already struggle considering myself very useful in hard mode trials. I should not be forced to be CP 600 just to be able to afford an encounter I could do in 2015 with 100 CP and CP 140 gear.

Guess what happens now, and every stinking few months? I have to grind like a donkey to re-re-re-re-re-purchase gold reagents and whatsnot. I have already been told I am meant to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-grind just another stupid vet dungeon for another monster set different than the current BiS.

All of this is a waste of my time, it's unfun at all, plus I have to make lots of gold to get all the materials. Right after I have finished my umpteenth, expensive, gold set good for today's trials.

Hard mode vet trials are literally the hardest content in the game. If you are doing them at all you're in the very top. Sure there are a bunch of people above you making you *think* you're not that good, but honestly, you're right up there.

It's the same deal with VMA. If you have finished VMA AT ALL you're way ahead of the majority. I'd love to see the stats on the percentage of players who have finished VMA and the percentage of players who have finished even 1 trial in HM.

You, specifically you are going to be hardest hit by this change. The lower % of the highest tier.
Sorry, sometimes that's how it shakes out.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

This nerf will suck a bit, but I think people are greatly over stating their case.
You're losing SOME regen and skills will cost a LITTLE bit more.

It will hurt the very top, mostly because they have very carefully adjusted their builds to put out as much damage as possible while BARELY not running out of resources. If the fight ends and they have 80% resources then to them it means they could do more damage.

No, it does not hurt just "the very top".

Despite I am not in a top world guild at all, I have about CP 400. I already struggle considering myself very useful in hard mode trials. I should not be forced to be CP 600 just to be able to afford an encounter I could do in 2015 with 100 CP and CP 140 gear.

Guess what happens now, and every stinking few months? I have to grind like a donkey to re-re-re-re-re-purchase gold reagents and whatsnot. I have already been told I am meant to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-grind just another stupid vet dungeon for another monster set different than the current BiS.

All of this is a waste of my time, it's unfun at all, plus I have to make lots of gold to get all the materials. Right after I have finished my umpteenth, expensive, gold set good for today's trials.

Hard mode vet trials are literally the hardest content in the game. If you are doing them at all you're in the very top. Sure there are a bunch of people above you making you *think* you're not that good, but honestly, you're right up there.

It's the same deal with VMA. If you have finished VMA AT ALL you're way ahead of the majority. I'd love to see the stats on the percentage of players who have finished VMA and the percentage of players who have finished even 1 trial in HM.

You, specifically you are going to be hardest hit by this change. The lower % of the highest tier.
Sorry, sometimes that's how it shakes out.

Come on, I am doing vet HR, AA etc. since 2015, it can't be *that* elite stuff. My guild is casual and I often play 2h a day.
If I am elite then you have never seen what the real thing is.

I've been super-hard core 10 years ago, in a top 30 WoW world kills competing with Nihilum and similar.

You'd be dissected and micro-analyzed even just before being able to be told the guild URL where to apply to.
8-14h a day raid training and herbs gathering (for high end pots).

That was hard core. ESO in comparison is like lazy sleeping next to the sea shore during a sunny day.