Warlord and Magician CP being removed in Morrowind

JinMori · March 2017

Ghostextechnica wrote: »

Has anyone considered whether they are removing these because sustain won't be a problem anymore (because of something like cutting spell costs by 50% or similar)?

Other MMO's quite often do this. If you think back to early World of Warcraft, mana was a giant pain for anyone who used it and dps and healers would often go out of mana.

In today's WoW, sustain is just not even a thing - and it made the game a lot more fun.

That would be insane, i'm all for buff, but a 50 % reduced cost would be just insane, you would never ever run out of resources.
I'm thinking that they probably reduced cost by 16 % To make up with this loss, if not, then this change is just ***.
Who wants to run reduced cost glyphs or regen glyphs at the cost of doing less damage? I'm all for good changes, this isn't one.
A good change would be to give abilities 2 effects, 1 in pvp and 1 in pve, this would allow them to balance the game much better, the less you have to take into account, the easier and the better your balancing will be, But of course they won't do it, it's too much work.... (prove me wrong).

STEVIL · March 2017

rhapsodious wrote: »

Hi, I'm the person who took all these pictures. I didn't want them to be inflammatory so much as "huh, that changed, odd"... sorry Rich. ):

I didn't get the chance to compare skill costs between here and live, unfortunately, but I do not think ZOS employees are gleefully wringing their hands as they plot new ways to ruin your specs. It might end up that you're getting your recovery anyway through other changes, and the new Siphoner star might just be a PVP-oriented one like.. what is it, Ironclad? The one that gives crit res?

Don't make a huge judgment call off of a few pictures or pieces of the puzzle.

My first thought on seeing these was "this is not the whole picture".

I dont disagree with making need for sustain play a larger role but my bet is this is the part of the equation that shifts it one way but there are other mitigating factors.

Maybe some costs go down.
Maybe return goes up from hvy atts.
Maybe points in health feed all regens (or reduce cost) bigly, making health vs stam/mag even more of sustain vs offense choice.
Maybe light/medium get more passive cost reduce while hvy gets constitution.

Dont know but as long as CP had such a YUGE hit on costs, the other options were used less so this piece of the puzzle being rather drastic is within the ballpark of reason.

I will wait to see the whole picture before i start listening to the tiny egg-layers and panicing.

Acrolas · March 2017

At this point I'd rather they get rid of the CP constellations entirely and just redesign attributes with more point options and soft caps and maybe a few progress passives every few hundred points like reduced repair costs and better treasure chest loot.

The first time they altered the CP constellations, they damaged the integrity of having a system like it. Now they're just in a field smashing the CP system with a hammer hoping that fixes it.

When the real problem is, you know, how *** enormous Cyrodiil is. You get the same latency and frame rate problems in Wrothgar, but with the exception of world bosses, everyone's spread out so you don't feel it as much. Same with Reaper's March. You get a packet cluster *** in Rawl'kha but if you go into the map fringes you're fine.

Cyrodiil is a huge map where everybody is trying to constantly converge at Rawl'kha at once. The only way you fix that is to incentivize people to not converge. So the solution is either to make Cyrodiil a PVP map with small instanced Fort and Keep battlegrounds, or keep having performance problems in Cyrodiil. *** around with the CP constellations will never fix that fundamental issue.

I really don't know why they're so afraid of soft caps, either. You could still sink 600 points into an attribute if you really, really... were bad at math. Are they afraid to admit they're wrong? Even once? That would be the more admirable thing to do, rather than hiding their weaknesses behind incremental attempts at fixing things that can't be fixed that way. There's no pride in flushing a clogged toilet over and over again when what you really need is a plunger.

ZOS, it's time to roll up your sleeves and just fix the *** by getting rid of the *** entirely. Some people will get grossed out and leave. Some people will promise never to spend another cent on treating you ever again. Revenue might slip for a few months. But most people will stay, because more to the game than CP or Cyrodiil and Morrowind is the perfect distraction while you clean up the messes elsewhere.

Turelus · March 2017

For all the screaming it makes content impossible, wouldn't they just I don't know... balance the content to compensate?

Honestly I am fine with any removal of combat stuff from CP (as controversial as that is) it's a garbage system which didn't achieve anything which we were asking for, could have just kept VR levels and ignored CP entirely.

ADarklore · March 2017

Here is my theory... several months ago when they made significant changes to sustain, Wrobel said to compensate people should be using Cost Reduction enchants. They've probably seen that instead, people are still using all damage enchants, and this is their way of forcing people to follow his advice.

In regards to removing 'healing crits' from Precise Strikes, this is a direct nerf to StamSorcs using CritSurge.

mb10 · March 2017

Just remove all CP from PVP

amasuriel · March 2017

They are obviously trying to make more build diversity but making it so you cannot wear all full damage sets and have good sustain, but my concern is that people will not adapt the way they think.

For every group than decides BiS is now lich and BSW instead of moondancer, there will be 2 more who demand (as if they don't now) 2 templar healers throwing Luminous Shards (the damage morph will not be an option any more) to make up for it.

It will mean healers other than templars will not be even remotely acceptable, and templars healers will be under enormous pressure to spam luminous shards as fast as possible.

It will also mean further distance between the ultra elite (who will keep their all DPS layouts and just demand more resources from their healers) and normal players (who will get used to having a damage set and a sustain set on them for 4 man, soloing etc). The gap between the top guilds and everyone else will grow even wider, as the playstyle and gear will be different.

This is my dread prediction if this goes live as is.

notimetocare · March 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Jaeme Diam wrote: »

Ridiculous change. If it goes live it'll be my last straw.

Yup. Lag, eso+ scam, more lag, *** balance change. If they wreck sustain in pve as hard as it looks I'm out.

Maybe this change isn't so bad after all. Something good will come from it at least.

leepalmer95 · March 2017

Theres still a horrible inbalanced of sustain between classes.

Look at mag dk's sustain compared to something like stam dk or stam sorc.

While i agree sustain has become stupid it's only for some classes and blanket nerfs hurt the worse of classes more.

On my mag dk i use 5x seducer and 2x bloodspawn to sustain, i give up 7 slots for sustain basically where as on my stam sorc or stam dk i'm literally wearing 100% all dmg sets.

Wrubius_Coronaria · March 2017

adriant1978 wrote: »

Already a thread going on about this in the Alliance War forum, but I think maybe it needs to be brought to the wider attention of PvE folks who don't visit there.

Screenshots from PAX East: https://imgur.com/a/KS9mP#rBB48CB (not mine)
Stamina and Magicka cost reduction CP apparently removed

Mooncalf and Arcanist regen CP reduced to 15% maximum from 25% maximum

Warlord changed to "Break Free" cost reduction

Magician replaced by Siphoner, which reduces target's regen (health, magicka & stamina) when hit by light/heavy attacks

I'm really sick of their nerfs at every new update. Since 1.6 they started to nerf a lot small groups and solo gameplay, after made pvp about gear based and not skills anymore. And then added poisons, buffed snares and added proc sets, ect... I wonder what is wrong with you zenimax and if you realize how pvp is frustrating already?

ADarklore · March 2017

If this update goes through, I'm betting that sales of 'Cost Reduction' enchants goes way up... as Wrobel intended.

[Deleted User] · March 2017

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andreasranasen · March 2017

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

If this update goes through, I'm betting that sales of 'Cost Reduction' enchants goes way up... as Wrobel intended.

Wrobel gon' be sellin' all them enchants he made.

100k for his enchants...

I can't stand him. He really ruins this company.

Peekachu99 · March 2017

If they balance ability COST, armor set bonuses (especially crafted--I mean 90% of them are terrible), it might not be so bad. I've rolled through so many changes with this game, I'm willing to see how this pans out on PTS.

I thought the removal of procs was going to kill my self-healing PVE tanks (leeching), but I hardly noticed it with the added healing and reduction from extra CP points.

I'm going to "wait and see." No sense in spazzing out now when we don't have all the details.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2017

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

My initial thought on this are: we get ability cost increases about every other patch, I think we've had 3 or 4 since cp were introduced, we have poisons that target sustain, and I have to wear seducer or lich in pvp. I'd rather zos were just more careful about implementing power creep that decimating sustain every time they make us op

To expand on my previous comment; I remember back before cp were introduced I could get my Mages Wrath skill cost down to 946 magicka with only 3x spell cost reduction glyphs. Right now in game I have 3x spell cost reduction glyphs, 5x seducer for 8% cost reduction and 85cp in magician for another 14.5% reduction in spell cost, and my Mages Wrath now costs 1165 magicka. WTF zos?

Cinbri · March 2017

Siphoner probably apply named debuff of enemy, such debuffs can't stack, so probably Siphoner won't stack too, means 10v1 and it still will be debuff from 1 enemy, not 10.

Kamatsu · March 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

They are obviously trying to make more build diversity but making it so you cannot wear all full damage sets and have good sustain, but my concern is that people will not adapt the way they think.

This is a good thought IMO - because right now in PvE (I don't PvP so can't comment on that) everyone just goes all damage gear with no sustain, as why go sustain when you have CP for that. Thus you have ppl going for sets which provide +resource, +damage, +crit, and/or with +proc ability.

So in an attempt to change this, they are removing cost reduction and nerfing regen CP's - this means that everyone suddenly will have to think about sustainability more, and means most players who don't have ppl to feed them resources will switch to sets which have +regen on them instead. IE 5 Seducer's instead of 5 Law of Julianos for magicka users wearing crafted gear since Seducer's gives cost reduction and regen, while LoJ is all damage & crit.

Obviously we don't know what other changes they have planned - such as changing the amount of resourced each skill use, the damage done by skills, etc. So we could see skills get a slight damage boost, or slight cost reduction.. which would help but still force more players to likely switch sets to more sustaining sets.

The other side of the coin as you mentioned is... these changes will hit casual and 'non elitist' players the hardest, those who don't have ppl to carry them over - ie as you pointed out some ppl will just get ppl in groups to focus more of resource giving so they don't sacrifice damage... meanwhile the people who don't have this advantage will have to switch gearsets from damage to more sustaining sets just to keep playing... and possibly have to end up carrying 2 sets of gear around (which since less than 50% of the playerbase has expanded inventories according to ZOS, is ouchies!).

alexkdd99 · March 2017

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Personnaly I like what I'm seeing.

Sure, it's not set in stone and is subject to change, but, these things are usually, actually, pretty, set in stone. I don't think we will see a return of reduced cost CP stars. But I'm certainly interested to see if there will be other changes made in other passives and abilities to compensate. Maybe reduce cost glyphs will get a buff?!

What about pve? No one use those glyphs.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Personnaly I like what I'm seeing.

Sure, it's not set in stone and is subject to change, but, these things are usually, actually, pretty, set in stone. I don't think we will see a return of reduced cost CP stars. But I'm certainly interested to see if there will be other changes made in other passives and abilities to compensate. Maybe reduce cost glyphs will get a buff?!

So you like what you are seeing even with no clue whether anything will be buffed to compensate? With zos we have no way of knowing what they are up to. It would not be outside the realm of possibilities that instead of getting buffs to compensate we just see more nerfs.

Such drastic changes at once are never a good idea.

It's always the end of days with you people. The individuals that went to ZeniHQ all came back and spoke of being incredibly optimistic about the future of ESO.
I respect a developer that is not afraid of making sweeping changes to improve the future of thier title, popular or not, they usually have many more tools available to investigate these issues and create fixes.

We have seen nothing but buffs with the odd Nerf here and there for the past year. Including raises in the CP cap. How are you all so negative??

Do you guys feel sustain should always be an afterthought with regards gameplay mechanics!?

Where did I say end of days? Nothing but buffs? Are we playing the same game here? There have been far more nerfs than buffs in the past year.

How are you so optimistic that they won't break 2 things while trying to fix one, like they have shown themselves to do.

Big sweeping changes all at once isn't good. Small more regular incremental changes are. I guess you just haven't tried to play after they attempt to make large changes. They can't even make a bug free group finder, but yet you think they will be able to drastically change the cp system without huge bugs and other issues? Was you playing when they implemented battle scaling? Dungeon mobs/ bosses hp and attack was all over the place. Not to mention how often times people toons will begin to feel weaker as they progress to higher levels, because of the odd battle scaling they implemented.

But hey I guess your right, they are excellent coders and we will get a perfect cp system out of it. Except that they have already admitted the code is a train wreck and that they often mess 10 things up while changing 1.

Wollust · March 2017

JinMori wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Just think of this zos: if everything is nerfed, nothing is nerfed in the end, BUT players will feel the decrease in power, and they will like it less, i mean who likes it when you get nerfed, not only that, it will make the game less fun, just imagine having to sit there spamming heavy attack because you drained all your resources (there is a reason why the wow team decided to give basically infinite resource), expect some people to leave if you go through with this.

On the other hand if everything is buffed, noting is, BUT player will feel the increase in power and they will probably like it more. Buffs>nerfs.
Sitting there doing nothing is not fun.

Nerfs > Buffs, power creep is bad and ruins the game slowly over time.
This is a game without cooldown, resource sustain should matter. You can't compare it to a game that relies on cool down management like WoW.
CP made sustaining way too easy. I completely approve of nerfing this aspect of the CP system.

You don't understand how power creep works.
In my post i said buff everything=buff nothing, In that everything bosses and npc are included, but at least now you deal more damage, making you feel more impactful, this is why i said that buffs are better then nerfs, it's basically human psychology, remove something and it will be felt much more then if something is added.

Power creep apply only when the content isn't scaled with the amount of power a player has.

So tell me about how the content is always being buffed every patch, because it isn't. We're getting more powerful with each patch but content hasn't been adjusted for 1 year now. And I highly doubt they are going to change that. It took them 1.5 years to upscale the old trials and dungeon.

I understand very well how power creep works, I've been around since release and I can tell you exactly that we've got quite the power creep going on here. So yes, maybe it would be nice if everything was buffed equally but that won't happen.

runagate · March 2017

I would dearly love to see a video of them try to get through anything endgame with a DPS race with this change.

mr_wazzabi · March 2017

adriant1978 wrote: »

Already a thread going on about this in the Alliance War forum, but I think maybe it needs to be brought to the wider attention of PvE folks who don't visit there.

Screenshots from PAX East: https://imgur.com/a/KS9mP#rBB48CB (not mine)
Stamina and Magicka cost reduction CP apparently removed

Mooncalf and Arcanist regen CP reduced to 15% maximum from 25% maximum

Warlord changed to "Break Free" cost reduction

Magician replaced by Siphoner, which reduces target's regen (health, magicka & stamina) when hit by light/heavy attacks

Horrible changes. They really want us to use sustain glyphs on our jewelery and nerf our damage. Bod change.

MLGProPlayer · March 2017

This is going to drastically reduce PvE damage numbers since everyone will be stacking cost reduction/recovery glyphs. Might not be a bad thing.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2017

Kamatsu wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

They are obviously trying to make more build diversity but making it so you cannot wear all full damage sets and have good sustain, but my concern is that people will not adapt the way they think.

This is a good thought IMO - because right now in PvE (I don't PvP so can't comment on that) everyone just goes all damage gear with no sustain, as why go sustain when you have CP for that. Thus you have ppl going for sets which provide +resource, +damage, +crit, and/or with +proc ability.

So in an attempt to change this, they are removing cost reduction and nerfing regen CP's - this means that everyone suddenly will have to think about sustainability more, and means most players who don't have ppl to feed them resources will switch to sets which have +regen on them instead. IE 5 Seducer's instead of 5 Law of Julianos for magicka users wearing crafted gear since Seducer's gives cost reduction and regen, while LoJ is all damage & crit.

Obviously we don't know what other changes they have planned - such as changing the amount of resourced each skill use, the damage done by skills, etc. So we could see skills get a slight damage boost, or slight cost reduction.. which would help but still force more players to likely switch sets to more sustaining sets.

The other side of the coin as you mentioned is... these changes will hit casual and 'non elitist' players the hardest, those who don't have ppl to carry them over - ie as you pointed out some ppl will just get ppl in groups to focus more of resource giving so they don't sacrifice damage... meanwhile the people who don't have this advantage will have to switch gearsets from damage to more sustaining sets just to keep playing... and possibly have to end up carrying 2 sets of gear around (which since less than 50% of the playerbase has expanded inventories according to ZOS, is ouchies!).

For vma I go all damage as you say, I end up with about 900 mag regen and I get about 15% cost reduction from magician, and whatever it is from light armour. It's very possible to sustain like this but I wouldn't say it was easy. Obviously the 15% cost reduction helps a bunch, but I would say the 2 main things that allow me to sustain like this are pots and the Destruction Expert passive from destro staff skill line.

This passive gives me back 3600 magicka ever time I kill something with a destro skill, with no cooldown. This is huge. Mainly because over half of my damaging skills are from the destro staff; force pulse, elemental blockade and light/heavy attacks, so most mobs die from destro skills and therefore return 3600 magicka every time. It's impossible for me to run oom as long as there are enough mobs to keep killing. This doesn't work on bosses, which is why overload is so useful. Without overload I can only sustain for as long as it takes to kill a 2m hp boss solo, then I'm completely oom with pot on cooldown.

In a group setting for bosses with more than 3m hp sustain comes from group members, which is how it should be.

This change will hurt pvp more than pve, for me anyway, because I don't use any destro skills in pvp and usually prefer to be solo. I would rather zos look at that destro passive if they thought that pve sustain was too good.

GrigorijMalahevich · March 2017

Huh, I am reading this and thinking how luxky I am with my VMA lightning staff sharp, gg.

Huge change to game mechanics that influences both PvE and PvP. Maybe a more safer option is to just remove CP from PvP, then there is no need for cost increase poisons and we can actually play and enjoy the game.

Power creep is not very good, but I guess thete will be a lot of new sustain sets in Morrowind.

P.S. I see more people swapping Trueflame for Azura, which is good.

O_LYKOS · March 2017

Do they plan on actually fixing the god dam game?

They need to stop messing with things. Leave it alone, at lease for now. And just fix the game.

Izaki · March 2017

Cost reduction glyphs in PvE will be making an appearance! Sounds good to me! Obviously, the bad part is that everyone's DPS will go down slightly which isn't exactly rewarding, but whatever.

runagate · March 2017

O_LYKOS wrote: »

Do they plan on actually fixing the god dam game?

They need to stop messing with things. Leave it alone, at lease for now. And just fix the game.

That is definitely the most salient question. Having reached a non-awful level after 3 years of tinkering, let's just see what it's like to completely disable characters' ability to outlast the senselessly high health pools of vet dungeon trash that so delights the casual player, let alone actually difficult content where running out of resources can equal group wipe with no obvious way to overcome this. It's not like people are just waltzing through vMoL HM in droves, achieving victory by a wide margin with plenty of resources in the rage phase clutch.

Zinaroth · March 2017

RIP Stamplar sustain.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · March 2017

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Mostly because this does not at all solve the biggest problems with PvP right now, and actually makes some of them (Redguard Sorcerers, light attack meta) even worse.

I've said it once, and I'll say it a million more times:

All of these issues (and the resulting buff-nerf yo-yo) that goes with them could be fixed with the reintroduction of reasonably-executed soft caps.

zaria · March 2017

Wollust wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Just think of this zos: if everything is nerfed, nothing is nerfed in the end, BUT players will feel the decrease in power, and they will like it less, i mean who likes it when you get nerfed, not only that, it will make the game less fun, just imagine having to sit there spamming heavy attack because you drained all your resources (there is a reason why the wow team decided to give basically infinite resource), expect some people to leave if you go through with this.

On the other hand if everything is buffed, noting is, BUT player will feel the increase in power and they will probably like it more. Buffs>nerfs.
Sitting there doing nothing is not fun.

Nerfs > Buffs, power creep is bad and ruins the game slowly over time.
This is a game without cooldown, resource sustain should matter. You can't compare it to a game that relies on cool down management like WoW.
CP made sustaining way too easy. I completely approve of nerfing this aspect of the CP system.

You don't understand how power creep works.
In my post i said buff everything=buff nothing, In that everything bosses and npc are included, but at least now you deal more damage, making you feel more impactful, this is why i said that buffs are better then nerfs, it's basically human psychology, remove something and it will be felt much more then if something is added.

Power creep apply only when the content isn't scaled with the amount of power a player has.

So tell me about how the content is always being buffed every patch, because it isn't. We're getting more powerful with each patch but content hasn't been adjusted for 1 year now. And I highly doubt they are going to change that. It took them 1.5 years to upscale the old trials and dungeon.

I understand very well how power creep works, I've been around since release and I can tell you exactly that we've got quite the power creep going on here. So yes, maybe it would be nice if everything was buffed equally but that won't happen.

Power creep in PvE is an good thing as long as it don't go out of control.
You combat it by adding new and harder content.
CP is slow power creep.
Doing an all over the board major nerf would be devastating for all the players who are progressing trough pve group content.
Suddenly they can not do the dungeons they did before.
ZOS probably realize that that would do to their bottom-line.