Let 2H weapons count as 2 toward set bonuses

idk · February 2017

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Yeah and I wonder why everyone uses dual wield in pvp and pve hm, for that extra 1 set bonus I believe really definitely comes in handy on many sets.

Chadak · February 2017

All I see of the positions against adding up to 'No, because then its the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaame' followed by ricepaper-thin non-sequiturs of ultimate irrelevance about presumptions of 2h being, somehow, inherently stronger anyway.

No. No, it isn't. And the 2h lines, no matter what you think, aren't inherently superior to DW either.

You're just making garbage up to try to justify your indefensible position when the simple fact of the matter is that 2h/staff wielders are getting jacked out of a set slot and are getting nothing in return for it.

Whhhhyyyyyy is destro staff preferred for magicka dps? Couldn't possibly be because it is literally the only magicka DPS weapon in the game, could it be?

What else ya gonna run on a magicka dps build - your face? Resto staff and lots of wishful thinking? Bow and pretend stamina is actually magicka?

chaserstorm16909 · February 2017

How many threads has there been on this already?

Betheny · February 2017

They need to both do this and add more magicka weapons into the game. Add some magicka weapons that can be dual wielded, and have a magicka weapon with a magicka offhand as well.

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

They just need to make every 2h in the game count as a 2 piece bonus and be done with it, they should have since the beginning that extra piece determines alot of outcome

Browiseth · February 2017

They literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with 2H guys #2

MLGProPlayer · February 2017

There isn't anything that 2H does better than dual wield, which is why no one uses 2H.

MLGProPlayer · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Magicka characters use a staff because it's the only weapon that scales with magicka. If they had a choice for a 1H wand or something, they would use it.

Templars use dual wield swords for the sole reason that they give you more SPELL DAMAGE than a staff. That should not be happening. The swords don't even do any damage (since they scale with stamina), they are there strictly for the extra spell damage and the 5-piece bonus.

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

Yeah, that's the reason why 2hers should count as a 2 piece to scale with the extra slotted set piece, I don't know why anyone wouldn't want this tbh.

Plus you won't have a choice to determine the 2ndary set piece cause it will just count as a 2 piece by itself for whatever set the 2h is.

thankyourat · February 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There isn't anything that 2H does better than dual wield, which is why no one uses 2H.

You have to look at this from a PvP perspective as well not just PvE. I would say everyone with the exception of magplar and mag dk runs some sort of 2hand weapon in PvP. The reason being is that 2hand weapons completely outshine dual wield in pvp

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Chadak wrote: »

All I see of the positions against adding up to 'No, because then its the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaame' followed by ricepaper-thin non-sequiturs of ultimate irrelevance about presumptions of 2h being, somehow, inherently stronger anyway.

No. No, it isn't. And the 2h lines, no matter what you think, aren't inherently superior to DW either.

You're just making garbage up to try to justify your indefensible position when the simple fact of the matter is that 2h/staff wielders are getting jacked out of a set slot and are getting nothing in return for it.

Whhhhyyyyyy is destro staff preferred for magicka dps? Couldn't possibly be because it is literally the only magicka DPS weapon in the game, could it be?

What else ya gonna run on a magicka dps build - your face? Resto staff and lots of wishful thinking? Bow and pretend stamina is actually magicka?

Go up and read my comment.

That explains why 2h's don't need a buff, which is what this is a buff.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Yeah and I wonder why everyone uses dual wield in pvp and pve hm, for that extra 1 set bonus I believe really definitely comes in handy on many sets.

No they don't.

Raids will use a destro over a dw for ult.
Most stamina players use 2h over dw because it's just better for pvp, better skills + passives.
Even the magicka builds using dw or s&b may switch to destro next patch because of dw nerf + increased dmg of staffs or magicka blocking.

Go play pvp some more.

SodanTok · February 2017

There were less than 10% of current sets ingame when it was decided 2H weapons are limited (read: from the start). There were no monster masks, there were no maelstorm or master weapons. There were no agility sets.

Currently, 99% of popular sets were not present when ZoS decided for this 2H limitation.

If you think all sets gets balanced accordingly or the advantages of 2H (existing since beta) outweighs the advantage gained from all those new sets that are so much better than what was used before... you should see a doctor.

Zvorgin · February 2017

I'm fine with this. It makes sense to have a standard equipment layout of 12 pieces, not 11 or 12. Even monster set plus weapon set is a 5 piece. 5+5+2 should be the standar in my opinion.

GreenhaloX · February 2017

I will always vote yes to this!

Phinix1 · February 2017

The thing you have to remember is where the loss of set bonuses is most significant, specifically, FROST STAFF TANKS.

While it may not be super bad for a DPS to lose one set and slot a single Kena or something instead, a tank really wants to be getting the best bang for their buck in terms of group utility.

Further, the sort of sets tanks stack don't lend well to swapping between bars where they are active and where they aren't. For example Ebon. Swap from sword and shield to frost bar and the entire group loses over 1k health? Or Plague Doctor, swap and lose over 6k health on the tank (and a lot of strength on their shield to the group if they're a DK)?

I also hear a lot of people saying "2H is better for PVP" and I am thinking really? How? Better passives? There is one passive that increases stamina regen when you kill something. Not useful in PVE boss fights at all outside the rare cases there are adds, and won't make that much of a difference with spear shards chucked around.

Pretty much the only reason people use 2H in PVP is for the gap closer, not because it is an inherently stronger weapon.

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Yeah and I wonder why everyone uses dual wield in pvp and pve hm, for that extra 1 set bonus I believe really definitely comes in handy on many sets.

No they don't.

Raids will use a destro over a dw for ult.
Most stamina players use 2h over dw because it's just better for pvp, better skills + passives.
Even the magicka builds using dw or s&b may switch to destro next patch because of dw nerf + increased dmg of staffs or magicka blocking.

Go play pvp some more.

I don't pvp at all but the Spinner set sure does sell quite a bit especially dual swords

Lynx7386 · February 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree. It is just weird. The only advantage I can see is that 2H weapons are mostly ranged weapons (destr / rest staff and bow) but we also have 2H swords - those are melee weapons...

...and have a higher base damage then all other melee weapons.

That is the tradeoff after all - two-handed weapons have an advantage (range or more damage), but a drawback (one lost slot for stuff).

Asking for removal of the drawback and yet wanting to keep the advantage is kinda unfair, don'tcha think?

And giving the other melee weapon lines a damage boost to make all exactly the same again... would be pretty boring.

So, nope. Make your choice, live with it.

(not like two-handers don't have dominated cyrodil anyhow through divines know how many nerfs... used to be skirt and staff was the winning choice, then they nerfed that and at some point everyone and their granny ran with WB spam, and they nerfed that too, and now the big killer is eye of the storm last I got my behind handed to me in PvP...)

Actually, dual wield will always afford a player higher spell and weapon damage than any 2h options (either 2h maces/swords/axes or staves). That's why dual wield is so popular even for spellcasters who dont use the actual dw abilities.

In dragon age inquisition, they solve this issue with upgrades to weapons. Daggers and other 1h weapons only have one upgrade slot (because you're using two daggers or a 1h + shield), while 2h weapons and staffs have two upgrade slots to increase stats.

So yes, I agree, 2h weapons (staves and 2h melee weapons and bows) should all count as two set items for set item bonuses. However, they do not need any changes in regards to actual weapon stats, enchant effects, etc. Only the set bonus bit really matters right now.

SirAndy · February 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

I don't think you will make one player exactly the same as another simply by bringing rational and beneficial balance to a core mechanics like set bonuses.

Except, it's not rational ...

Rational:
A two handed weapon is still just one weapon. One. Not two.

Not rational:
A two handed weapon should count as two weapons.

Taylor_MB · February 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

I also hear a lot of people saying "2H is better for PVP" and I am thinking really? How? Better passives? There is one passive that increases stamina regen when you kill something. Not useful in PVE boss fights at all outside the rare cases there are adds, and won't make that much of a difference with spear shards chucked around.

Pretty much the only reason people use 2H in PVP is for the gap closer, not because it is an inherently stronger weapon.

This is just so wrong I cannot simply let it pass. From a PvP perspective:

2H Pros

Gap closer
Battle Rush passive - huge stamina boost
Follow Up passive - 10% boost to next attack, amazing for empowering ults
Execute
Rally - best stamina HoT, burst heal AND major brutality. StamSorc is really the only class that can survive without rally
Onslaught Ultimate - only true 1-shot in the game
Attacking form stealth - with 2H the whole heavy attack will get empowered (with magelight for example), damage boost and guaranteed crit, with DW only the first of the swords will get empower, damage and guaranteed crit bonus.

2H Cons

Lose a set bonus

The only thing DW gives you is an extra set bonus, extra enchant and occasionally some very niche skills for specific and rare builds (flurry spam to proc Red Mountain or Selene for example).

I'm 100% willing to listen to you and everyone regarding PvE set bonus, I've read everything but failed to see a convincing argument so far. In regards to PvP, however, you are just so ridiculously wrong.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Yeah and I wonder why everyone uses dual wield in pvp and pve hm, for that extra 1 set bonus I believe really definitely comes in handy on many sets.

No they don't.

Raids will use a destro over a dw for ult.
Most stamina players use 2h over dw because it's just better for pvp, better skills + passives.
Even the magicka builds using dw or s&b may switch to destro next patch because of dw nerf + increased dmg of staffs or magicka blocking.

Go play pvp some more.

I don't pvp at all but the Spinner set sure does sell quite a bit especially dual swords

It sells for a lot because it's very very rare.

A sharp spinner staff sells for more.

Next patch you'll see ever less dw builds because of destro buff's.

Faulgor · February 2017

Well, 2h weapons also have twice the trait benefit, so ZOS acknowledged the issue in that instance.
Don't see why set bonuses should be any different.

Bigevilpeter · February 2017

I made a post like that before, don't put any hopes up. ZOS completely ignores the community and only changes things nobody asked for. So if there is a forum post about it, its not happening

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

Faulgor wrote: »

Well, 2h weapons also have twice the trait benefit, so ZOS acknowledged the issue in that instance.
Don't see why set bonuses should be any different.

You mean equal? Cause I believe 2 1hs put together have the same trait benefit as a 2h don't they

STEVIL · February 2017

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

There were less than 10% of current sets ingame when it was decided 2H weapons are limited (read: from the start). There were no monster masks, there were no maelstorm or master weapons. There were no agility sets.

Currently, 99% of popular sets were not present when ZoS decided for this 2H limitation.

If you think all sets gets balanced accordingly or the advantages of 2H (existing since beta) outweighs the advantage gained from all those new sets that are so much better than what was used before... you should see a doctor.

and yet we see 2h being used a lot even by good players who know what they are doing.

Why?

because it works.

See the "so many sets" argument fails to hold up when actual play and metrics are some of the baseline balancing elements.

"So many sets" aren't being used... period.

the sets that work with the weapons being used - those are the ones being used.

its that simple.

"All the sets that dont work well with 2h" are as meaningless as "all the sets that dont work well with staff" or "all the sets that dont work well with bow." or "all the sets that dont work well with sword and shield."

how much play it gets across all content is one of the strongest measures of capability. if something sucks, folks move away from it - on the larger population level.

Not happening with 2h.

Sure, some do, others come to it.

STEVIL · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Since Zos has not used total set bonus slots to balance anything this is a rather moot point.

Additionally, Magika builds are the most popular in competitive raiding ATM. That being the case and that almost all good magika builds use a staff (2H weapon) it seems like the above change is not needed .

Yeah and I wonder why everyone uses dual wield in pvp and pve hm, for that extra 1 set bonus I believe really definitely comes in handy on many sets.

No they don't.

Raids will use a destro over a dw for ult.
Most stamina players use 2h over dw because it's just better for pvp, better skills + passives.
Even the magicka builds using dw or s&b may switch to destro next patch because of dw nerf + increased dmg of staffs or magicka blocking.

Go play pvp some more.

I don't pvp at all but the Spinner set sure does sell quite a bit especially dual swords

It sells for a lot because it's very very rare.

A sharp spinner staff sells for more.

Next patch you'll see ever less dw builds because of destro buff's.

yep and possibly more spinners too because of the global proc crit nerf.
buff/debuff sets moving more over boom (recap) sets with this patch.

thankyourat · February 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

The thing you have to remember is where the loss of set bonuses is most significant, specifically, FROST STAFF TANKS.

While it may not be super bad for a DPS to lose one set and slot a single Kena or something instead, a tank really wants to be getting the best bang for their buck in terms of group utility.

Further, the sort of sets tanks stack don't lend well to swapping between bars where they are active and where they aren't. For example Ebon. Swap from sword and shield to frost bar and the entire group loses over 1k health? Or Plague Doctor, swap and lose over 6k health on the tank (and a lot of strength on their shield to the group if they're a DK)?

I also hear a lot of people saying "2H is better for PVP" and I am thinking really? How? Better passives? There is one passive that increases stamina regen when you kill something. Not useful in PVE boss fights at all outside the rare cases there are adds, and won't make that much of a difference with spear shards chucked around.

Pretty much the only reason people use 2H in PVP is for the gap closer, not because it is an inherently stronger weapon.

Yea 2hand sword is completely useless for PvE because it's spammable has a cast time which lowers your DPS it also doesn't have any dots. The 2hand skill line is all about hard hitting burst damage which isn't good in PvE because you need sustained DPS. But it is indeed the best option in PvP like you said it has a gap closer, but it also has the only stamina burst heal, and only stamina execute. A two hand sword is literally used by almost every stamina user either as a main weapon or for your buff bar

delarb14_ESO · June 2017

I would like to try a ice staff tank warden but having 2nd handed staves count as only 1 item for item sets makes this not practical. I would like to see 2hd weapons count as two items for set count purposes.

Ihatenightblades · June 2017

Hell no imagine a mag sorc with a destro counting as a 2 pc screw that.

Just because 2h suffers doesnt mean we should break the game