Let 2H weapons count as 2 toward set bonuses

Phinix1 · February 2017

Title says it all. It makes no sense that a skill line like Dual Wield which does miles more DPS than 2H anyway should get an extra set bonus slot, allowing 5+5+2 monster combos, while the already suffering 2H has to drop one 5-piece or the monster combo.

Also, for hybrid builds and in the near future specifically, frost staff tanks, this set bonus limitation will be a deal breaker.

This simple solution is a long time coming.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2017

I agree. It is just weird. The only advantage I can see is that 2H weapons are mostly ranged weapons (destr / rest staff and bow) but we also have 2H swords - those are melee weapons...

The magicka staff users suffers the most here because they often lack 1 set item - for much grater bonus same as dual wiled stamina builds.

davey1107 · February 2017

That could be a good idea...but the lines are currently adjusted to keep them at similar dps. If 2h builds became more powerful with an additional trait...especially a 5th piece trait, the skills would all need to be nerfed.

Bobby_V_Rockit · February 2017

Only if it costs double the craftings mats and halves the drop rate

Molydeus · February 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

That could be a good idea...but the lines are currently adjusted to keep them at similar dps. If 2h builds became more powerful with an additional trait...especially a 5th piece trait, the skills would all need to be nerfed.

One of the problems with that mindset though is the advantage from sets is greater than the advantage from skill line balance.

Stovahkiin · February 2017

STEVIL · February 2017

No
For many reasons.

KochDerDamonen · February 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

That could be a good idea...but the lines are currently adjusted to keep them at similar dps. If 2h builds became more powerful with an additional trait...especially a 5th piece trait, the skills would all need to be nerfed.

they aren't really balanced though, tell me how often you see an endgame PvE build rocking 2H for group dps. I'm not saying no one is doing it, I'm just saying they don't do the same DPS. The DoT available in 2H is worse, the spammable(uppercut) is generally worse, the execute is pretty good, the AoE (which is also the DoT) is worse, the Major Brutality spell is better in the sense that it heals you which isn't much to consider, 2H has a gap closer (good for PvP) and DW has some... weird thing.

Am I saying 2H suck and never use them? No. I'm saying being able to use 2 sets wouldn't suddenly make 2H the better option for PvE dps.

Totes-Bode · February 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

No
For many reasons.

Yeah! Only dual wield dps and s&b should be allowed to squeeze three set bonuses onto one skill bar! Staves should not count as 2 set items either, screw you, healers! We don't want your filthy buffs and added group survivability, what about my parse!

thankyourat · February 2017

2hand swords and destro staffs are too good in PvP. This would be completely unbalanced in pvp

PrinceRyzen · February 2017

2h Weapons should definitely count as 2 items

Those claiming doom and gloom are spreading baseless negativity.

Currently 2h users are limited to sets that carry over from 1 bar to the other. (I.E. Lich/Clever alchemist) if they want two 5 PC and a monster set. But they are, effectively, using two 5 PC sets AND a monster set. So the theory that them being able to would be broken is debunked by default. It's already proven otherwise by being ingame already.

Allowing 2h weapons to count as 2pc simply creates build diversity for 2h users. That's a good thing.

Taylor_MB · February 2017

No. This change does exactly the opposite of what you want, it makes builds less diverse.

PvE: DW will still be dps king, good spammable, AoE and DoT. Nothing will change.

PvP: Everyone with a class spammable now has no reason to run DW and will switch to 2H (much more appropiate passives), DW will become even less common in PvP.

Phinix1 · February 2017

Taylor_MB wrote: »

No. This change does exactly the opposite of what you want, it makes builds less diverse.

PvE: DW will still be dps king, good spammable, AoE and DoT. Nothing will change.

PvP: Everyone with a class spammable now has no reason to run DW and will switch to 2H (much more appropiate passives), DW will become even less common in PvP.

Not really interested in PVP since 90% will just run with a zerg or copy whatever build Fengrush or Sypher is streaming atm anyway regardless of this change.

But for PVE, which is what the vast majority of the game's development and fan focus is centered around, it would allow for a lot of build diversity. Lots or really cool setups are possible with 5+5+2 monster set combos.

Plus it is desperately needed to make frost staff tanking even remotely viable.

JinMori · February 2017

Many times i thought about this, and u think that it would be a good idea to make 2 h weapons count as 2 item sets it would allow for better setups with builds that don;t have the possibility to run dual wielding or one and shield, the wasted set bonus that you have when you are running monster set and a 5 piece always bothered me.

STEVIL · February 2017

Totes-Bode wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No
For many reasons.

Yeah! Only dual wield dps and s&b should be allowed to squeeze three set bonuses onto one skill bar! Staves should not count as 2 set items either, screw you, healers! We don't want your filthy buffs and added group survivability, what about my parse!

well yes, there should be differences between these builds. it shouldn't be that no matter what weapon you choose you have all the same choices.

your decision matters.

At least you admit its only a problem if you want it all on one bar at once. usually they just claim you cant get three end-set bonuses.

Wait.. of course, there are the 3pc jewel/weapon sets which could combine with a 2poc monster and a 5 pc crafted for all on one bar and even add a maelstrom/master one piece staff or bow into the mix. So right now a staff or bow or @h user could have what 4 sets fully loaded? 5pc crafted, mael/master wpn - that is six. 2 pc jewelry set - thats 9, 2pc monster thats 11...

hmmm...

your " squeeze three set bonuses onto one skill bar!" seems thin.

STEVIL · February 2017

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

That could be a good idea...but the lines are currently adjusted to keep them at similar dps. If 2h builds became more powerful with an additional trait...especially a 5th piece trait, the skills would all need to be nerfed.

they aren't really balanced though, tell me how often you see an endgame PvE build rocking 2H for group dps. I'm not saying no one is doing it, I'm just saying they don't do the same DPS. The DoT available in 2H is worse, the spammable(uppercut) is generally worse, the execute is pretty good, the AoE (which is also the DoT) is worse, the Major Brutality spell is better in the sense that it heals you which isn't much to consider, 2H has a gap closer (good for PvP) and DW has some... weird thing.

Am I saying 2H suck and never use them? No. I'm saying being able to use 2 sets wouldn't suddenly make 2H the better option for PvE dps.

According to threads over on the PTS side, they claim that magica staff builds are the most commonplace members among the high end group and larger group content. That point to various metrics to prove their case as much as they think it is proven.

So there seems to be some dispute over how good the dw bonuses etc make you for high end group play.

Not to mention that high end group play is a relatively small percentage of the game.

But buffing mag staff build for those groups and buffing 2h for pvp play seems to be a little controversial.

that and well you know at high end play there are more male/master weapons involved which make the entire issue moot.

"The journey to diversity does not begin by asking OnStar to "find more sameness."

Algraxa · February 2017

Make it so....

imapogostick · February 2017

I'm magic based and I can't stand the fact that I have to give up weaVing to dw, or give up that extra slot.

SirAndy · February 2017

How dare they make your weapon choice come with consequences ...

Make everyone exactly the same again!

STEVIL · February 2017

[quote="imapogostick;3762793"]I'm magic based and I can't stand the fact that I have to give up weaVing to dw, or give up that extra slot.[/quote]

Some of my characters (2 of 3 in fact) are magica based (in fact my "best" or favorite character is magica staff based though I myself am not magic based) and many of them don't dw at all (not sure any do right now - some may back bar though if they haven't been re-geared since 1T) and they tend to be fine with having all the set bonuses going by dint of the configurations i run (clever back-bar etc)

Giving them the extra slot would end any chance of me using the dw option ever. it would also likely remove clever from the mix as well cuz other crafteds do more overall damage if they can be kept up constantly like a two-slot staff would.

less difference equals less diversity.

thankyourat · February 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

No. This change does exactly the opposite of what you want, it makes builds less diverse.

PvE: DW will still be dps king, good spammable, AoE and DoT. Nothing will change.

PvP: Everyone with a class spammable now has no reason to run DW and will switch to 2H (much more appropiate passives), DW will become even less common in PvP.

Not really interested in PVP since 90% will just run with a zerg or copy whatever build Fengrush or Sypher is streaming atm anyway regardless of this change.

But for PVE, which is what the vast majority of the game's development and fan focus is centered around, it would allow for a lot of build diversity. Lots or really cool setups are possible with 5+5+2 monster set combos.

Plus it is desperately needed to make frost staff tanking even remotely viable.

There is more build diversity in PvP than there is in PvE. if you go into PvP you see so many different build combination. Where as if you join a raid in PvE everyone is running the same sets basically, and that's cause PvE is just a DPS race where as PvP is more about survivability so you can afford to try out different sets because you don't need to maximize your DPS potential

TheShadowScout · February 2017

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree. It is just weird. The only advantage I can see is that 2H weapons are mostly ranged weapons (destr / rest staff and bow) but we also have 2H swords - those are melee weapons...

...and have a higher base damage then all other melee weapons.

That is the tradeoff after all - two-handed weapons have an advantage (range or more damage), but a drawback (one lost slot for stuff).

Asking for removal of the drawback and yet wanting to keep the advantage is kinda unfair, don'tcha think?

And giving the other melee weapon lines a damage boost to make all exactly the same again... would be pretty boring.

So, nope. Make your choice, live with it.

(not like two-handers don't have dominated cyrodil anyhow through divines know how many nerfs... used to be skirt and staff was the winning choice, then they nerfed that and at some point everyone and their granny ran with WB spam, and they nerfed that too, and now the big killer is eye of the storm last I got my behind handed to me in PvP...)

leepalmer95 · February 2017

So just to confirm...

You want to add diversity... but in pve stam dps will still use dw over 2h because of dots being supreme in pve, bloodthirst being a spamable that scales with thaum and the existence of msa weps would mean every stam dps would still use dw.

Currently the strongest dps in pve are magicka builds which use staff's which are 2h... so all you would really be achieving is boosting the difference between mag and stam dps even more? Correct, plus staffs got buffed in homestead already...

And in pvp there really isn't many dw builds around as 2h is just better. The only ones currently are usually magplars, the occasional stam nb and some mag dk's. Even then a lot of people prefer destro for it's ult now days. Now next patch because of the destro changes you'll see even less magicka builds using dw or s&b in favour of magicka tanking, increased aoe or single target dmg.

So in reality all this change will do is instead of 'diversity' it would pretty much snow ball most players even more into the current strongest set up of 2h's in pvp and staff in pve even more.

Also DW got a nerf this patch already.

So whats the point of this again? @Phinix1

STEVIL · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

No. This change does exactly the opposite of what you want, it makes builds less diverse.

PvE: DW will still be dps king, good spammable, AoE and DoT. Nothing will change.

PvP: Everyone with a class spammable now has no reason to run DW and will switch to 2H (much more appropiate passives), DW will become even less common in PvP.

Not really interested in PVP since 90% will just run with a zerg or copy whatever build Fengrush or Sypher is streaming atm anyway regardless of this change.

But for PVE, which is what the vast majority of the game's development and fan focus is centered around, it would allow for a lot of build diversity. Lots or really cool setups are possible with 5+5+2 monster set combos.

Plus it is desperately needed to make frost staff tanking even remotely viable.

There is more build diversity in PvP than there is in PvE. if you go into PvP you see so many different build combination. Where as if you join a raid in PvE everyone is running the same sets basically, and that's cause PvE is just a DPS race where as PvP is more about survivability so you can afford to try out different sets because you don't need to maximize your DPS potential

this is to me one of the bigger flaws in the content of the game, specifically end game PVE.

Way way too much of it is "solvable" by high DPS and way way too much of it is only solvable by high end DPS.

When you face one kind of lock, its not surprising there are not a wide variety of keys.

its the fault of both the content and the base design of traits and such that make DPS so exclusively an issue of "user specs" and less "target specs".

if precise, nirn and sharp weren't all "more dps by increasing crit/dam/pen" respectively but instead were "morte dps vs light/med/hvy armors" or "more dps vs undead/daedra/spiders" respectively things would be very different in terms of what kinds of builds are needed/best for the variety of content. if more content was requiring at some point "sneak thru" or "heal thru" solutions... etc.

STEVIL · February 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree. It is just weird. The only advantage I can see is that 2H weapons are mostly ranged weapons (destr / rest staff and bow) but we also have 2H swords - those are melee weapons...

...and have a higher base damage then all other melee weapons.

That is the tradeoff after all - two-handed weapons have an advantage (range or more damage), but a drawback (one lost slot for stuff).

Asking for removal of the drawback and yet wanting to keep the advantage is kinda unfair, don'tcha think?

And giving the other melee weapon lines a damage boost to make all exactly the same again... would be pretty boring.

So, nope. Make your choice, live with it.

(not like two-handers don't have dominated cyrodil anyhow through divines know how many nerfs... used to be skirt and staff was the winning choice, then they nerfed that and at some point everyone and their granny ran with WB spam, and they nerfed that too, and now the big killer is eye of the storm last I got my behind handed to me in PvP...)

not to mention - took half the tempers to make gold.

Phinix1 · February 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

How dare they make your weapon choice come with consequences ...

Make everyone exactly the same again!

Bit of a red herring, wouldn't you say?

No one suggested making everything EXACTLY the same. All I am suggesting is to make all weapons count for the same number of set pieces.

Number of set pieces from armor: 7
Number of set pieces from jewelry: 3
Number of set pieces from weapons: 2

Simple.

Besides, most of the diversity in builds comes from gear set choices, stat balancing, ability use and synergy, group utility, enchant choices, rotation, and situational awareness.

I don't think you will make one player exactly the same as another simply by bringing rational and beneficial balance to a core mechanics like set bonuses.

Or, put another way, a frost staff is not "exactly the same" as dual daggers simply because both can be enchanted.

Phinix1 · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

No. This change does exactly the opposite of what you want, it makes builds less diverse.

PvE: DW will still be dps king, good spammable, AoE and DoT. Nothing will change.

PvP: Everyone with a class spammable now has no reason to run DW and will switch to 2H (much more appropiate passives), DW will become even less common in PvP.

Not really interested in PVP since 90% will just run with a zerg or copy whatever build Fengrush or Sypher is streaming atm anyway regardless of this change.

But for PVE, which is what the vast majority of the game's development and fan focus is centered around, it would allow for a lot of build diversity. Lots or really cool setups are possible with 5+5+2 monster set combos.

Plus it is desperately needed to make frost staff tanking even remotely viable.

There is more build diversity in PvP than there is in PvE. if you go into PvP you see so many different build combination. Where as if you join a raid in PvE everyone is running the same sets basically, and that's cause PvE is just a DPS race where as PvP is more about survivability so you can afford to try out different sets because you don't need to maximize your DPS potential

Good players and competitive duelists maybe. The vast majority however, is just as much about the DPS race as PVE. It is about stacking as much up-front burst and penetration to gank people before they can fight back.

(That's why meta-chasers spend literally MILLIONS of gold on the Spriggan set.)

Dueling is a whole other thing that the majority of PVP players don't really do enough to say it is the standard for PVP. I do respect skilled players and creative builds on both sides though.

SanSan · February 2017

Why doesn't every weapon have secondary set item (excluding sword and shield/dual wield).

Destro Staff - Fire/Ice/Lightning Tome
Restro Staff - Light Tome
Bow - Arrows
2H - Gauntlet/Sheath/etc.

AzuraKin · February 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

That could be a good idea...but the lines are currently adjusted to keep them at similar dps. If 2h builds became more powerful with an additional trait...especially a 5th piece trait, the skills would all need to be nerfed.

doubtful, believe current bis for 2nd weapons is maelstrom, monster, agi/will and 5p set.

STEVIL · February 2017

SanSan wrote: »

Why doesn't every weapon have secondary set item (excluding sword and shield/dual wield).

Destro Staff - Fire/Ice/Lightning Tome
Restro Staff - Light Tome
Bow - Arrows
2H - Gauntlet/Sheath/etc.

Well for one it would make sets like clever alchemist and lich and others less likely to be used and push towards more standard same sets for each type of build. Dw 2h could use identical 5-5-2 builds instead of 2H looking for different structures.

more same less different more boring.

AzuraKin · February 2017

pretty sure it is all pretty much the same. you either this weapon with these sets or you dont perform as well, if you dont perform as well you told to get gud.