Let's clear the air on why people are angry

SGT_Wolfe101st · February 2017

Jamini wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement#latest

The majority of people (and especially subs) are quite happy with the pricing scheme of the Expansion.

OP: you are in a vocal minority. Please would you all stop spamming threads on this?

I would disagree, with the amount of conversations on this topic I would say it is easily an even split. What I don't understand is how my concern is bothersome to the other side. It's not like those that are displeased asked for it to be free and non-subs pay double. I think subs have a reason to be upset. Crowns are devalued, the cadence of ESO+ included DLC will be cut with this new model, no new ESO+ DLC content has been added since Q32016 and will not appear again until Q32017. Those are legitimate gripes. No one asked for anything for free, money has changed hands, there should be services rendered. They changed the model and the TOS's give them that right, but subs have left money on the table and no one likes to feel cheated.

Miss_Morphine · February 2017

People are angry because RNG in this game is terrible.

Oh wait we're still on the sub thing. As a sub... 640?cb=20140829235648

bearclawmcbainb16_ESO · February 2017

Ojustaboo wrote: »

ESO Live Today Feb 13th 2015

00:16:30

ESO Plus members, while you are a member you have access to the regions, so different dungeons, additional content, you're going to have access to that.

Reverb · February 2017

Zeni has proven themselves time and again to be a company without integrity. This change is aligned with what I expect from them, which is very little at this point.

driosketch · February 2017

People sub for different reasons. Subbing has never been the cost effective way to enjoy the game long term. (Though I guess stuff like the crafting bag feel like a must have now.) So more than likely, it's not the pricing model for Morrowind that's the problem. It's after a number of things, crates, overpriced mounts, ect., and "expansion" was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I doubt anyone is solely upset over the semantics of DLC vs Expansion/Chapters.

Fudly_budly · February 2017

bellatrixed wrote: »

I'll happy buy the DLC for $40. Housing/furniture prices on the other hand are obscene.

^
this!!!

bowmanz607 · February 2017

bearclawmcbainb16_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

ESO Live Today Feb 13th 2015

00:16:30

ESO Plus members, while you are a member you have access to the regions, so different dungeons, additional content, you're going to have access to that.

Doesn't say all additional content. Just additional content.

Cherryblossom · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on. Plus, when the subs started we didn't even know how often they would release dlc. At the time is was unknown.

@bowmanz607
Some of us Subbed for the convenience of not needing to make continual purchases of additional content.

It's no longer the case, so without that convenience I see no reason to continue Subbing.

inf.toniceb17_ESO · February 2017

Well i get why ppl are upset, but to be fair: when you subscribed you agreed that ZOS can change terms however and whenever they want. You also have been warned 4 months before the expansion release that ESO+ won't give you access to Vvardenfell so technically nobody betrayed you. If you don't think ESO+ is worth your money anymore then vote with your wallet and unsubscribe. This is how it works.

esotoon · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

This has been changed from what it was previously (no mention of Crown Store). If you look carefully there are still places that they have forgotten to update this information.

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on.

Yes. It was part of the package. If you pay for 5 items, and only get 4, that doesn't make it ok.

bowmanz607 · February 2017

esotoon wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

This has been changed from what it was previously (no mention of Crown Store). If you look carefully there are still places that they have forgotten to update this information.

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on.

Yes. It was part of the package. If you pay for 5 items, and only get 4, that doesn't make it ok.

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

esotoon · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

I can't say for certain when it was changed in the actual T&Cs but I have e-mails form ZOS dated up to the 27th Jan which state you get access to all DLC packs, and one on the 1st Feb where it has been changed to access to DLC packs available through the Crown Store. So I am pretty certain it is only a very recent change.

The first time there has been any official talk of an ESO Expansion pack, was 31st Jan.

Which leads back to the original point. For the past 6 months subscribers have been subscribed having been told that they would be receiving access to 4 DLCs per year as part of that subscription. And that for the past 6 months ZOS has been taking money from them without fulfilling their stated promises.

Yes they have NOW changed the T&Cs to state that your subscription only allows you to access DLC available on the Crown Store. Yes they have NOW stated their will be 'Chapters' as well as 'DLC' and that only the 'DLC' will be available on the Crown Store for free to subscribers. But up until this point in time, subscribers had no way of knowing that they had changed their business model.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2017

Miss_Morphine wrote: »

People are angry because RNG in this game is terrible.

Oh wait we're still on the sub thing. As a sub...

lets just get rid of B2P all together, Personally this is what destroyed the game in the first place .

subtlezeroub17_ESO · February 2017

So, people are angry that they pay a subscription and are forced to pay for an expansion?

[SNIp] Every sub mmo makes you pay for an expansion. This game isnt even truly a subcription.

Gw2 is btp makes you pay for an expansion

WoW is sub and makes you pay for expansion

Ffxiv is sub makes you pay for expansions

Every major mmo is gonna make you pay for an expansion. I dont understand why people think ZoS is supposed to be different in that regard. Are they not a company trying to make money?

[SNIp]

[Edited for bait]

Wifeaggro13 · February 2017

esotoon wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

I can't say for certain when it was changed in the actual T&Cs but I have e-mails form ZOS dated up to the 27th Jan which state you get access to all DLC packs, and one on the 1st Feb where it has been changed to access to DLC packs available through the Crown Store. So I am pretty certain it is only a very recent change.

The first time there has been any official talk of an ESO Expansion pack, was 31st Jan.

Which leads back to the original point. For the past 6 months subscribers have been subscribed having been told that they would be receiving access to 4 DLCs per year as part of that subscription. And that for the past 6 months ZOS has been taking money from them without fulfilling their stated promises.

Yes they have NOW changed the T&Cs to state that your subscription only allows you to access DLC available on the Crown Store. Yes they have NOW stated their will be 'Chapters' as well as 'DLC'. But up until this point in time, subscribers had no way of knowing that they had changed their business model.

They never ever said they would not do expansions for this game , never. Matter o fact it was the exact opposite they said they would like to. and they also said they had no intention oof this game going F2p or B2p . Im no Zos fan boi and i deffinately have been an outspoken critic of their buisness practices and post production handling of content and design. but they never said they would not do an expansion for this game. they stated what they were doing post B2p and handling of the content they had designed. If you add up IC ,Wrothgar , hist and guild that is a full 40 dollar expansion, if you were subbing to get DLC's it was kind of dumb you could have paid 60 dollars for all that content. The only reason to sub was for the ability to play the game efficiently and have access to advanced gear and riding that's it. I do think Zos is over charging for Morrowind it lacks a bit of features to be considered an expansion once again they are double dipping fomr what their competiion provides for the money. they are gonna charge you for dungeons seperately and game systems like classes and layers to the CP system. Its shody buisness practice yes but they have done nothing illegal in their TOS

esotoon · February 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

They never ever said they would not do expansions for this game , never. Matter o fact it was the exact opposite they said they would like to. and they also said they had no intention oof this game going F2p or B2p .

You've either missed the point of what I was saying, or I didn't express it clearly.

Perhaps it is clearer if I say: Up until Jan 31st there had been official mention of an Expansion Pack being released in the near future.

My point being, that anyone subscribed to the game for the past 6 months had no way of knowing (or even suspecting) that they would not be getting any DLC for another year.

bowmanz607 · February 2017

esotoon wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

I can't say for certain when it was changed in the actual T&Cs but I have e-mails form ZOS dated up to the 27th Jan which state you get access to all DLC packs, and one on the 1st Feb where it has been changed to access to DLC packs available through the Crown Store. So I am pretty certain it is only a very recent change.

The first time there has been any official talk of an ESO Expansion pack, was 31st Jan.

Which leads back to the original point. For the past 6 months subscribers have been subscribed having been told that they would be receiving access to 4 DLCs per year as part of that subscription. And that for the past 6 months ZOS has been taking money from them without fulfilling their stated promises.

Yes they have NOW changed the T&Cs to state that your subscription only allows you to access DLC available on the Crown Store. Yes they have NOW stated their will be 'Chapters' as well as 'DLC'. But up until this point in time, subscribers had no way of knowing that they had changed their business model.

Technically, they said they would have 4 major updates per year I think. And where u buy sub says access to all DLC not how many they will have. Plus, eso plus subscriptions started before the 4 per year thong, so technically they changed their model then to. Before that we didn't even know how many dlc we would get.

Docmandu · February 2017

Biggest problem is that people probably won't have much choice but to pay up... before BoP was prevalent, you could just get the gear from a player that did have the DLC/Chapter/Expansion/call-it-what-you-want, but since they made so many things BoP, you're basically forced to pay up if you want to remain on equal footing as the rest of the player base. (be it PvP or endgame PvE)

and that is what I have the biggest issue with!

esotoon · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Technically, they said they would have 4 major updates per year I think. And where u buy sub says access to all DLC not how many they will have. Plus, eso plus subscriptions started before the 4 per year thong, so technically they changed their model then to. Before that we didn't even know how many dlc we would get.

I'm too tired to find them now, sorry, but in earlier threads there have been examples posted where they said both in 2015 and 2016 about delivering 4 DLCs a year.

And yes, when you subscribe, it does not explicitly say how many DLCs you can expect to get. But when you have people in the company (and high up people, not just underlings) publically stating this fact (whilst speaking in their professional capacity, not privately), there is a implied promise that you will receive that content.

alexkdd99 · February 2017

esotoon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

I'm a sub, I don't feel out to dry. I've been saying for a while to my friends in ESO that it needs a proper large paid expansion and I'm happy they are releasing one.

I think this is the problem. What one defines as a "large expansion". To many, this seems to offer only a little extra content compared to previous DLCs (especially when considering subscribers have received no DLCs for 2 Quarters). So why is it considered an Expansion and worthy of a separate payment?

Other MMOs have Expansion Packs for sure, but they seem to offer changes that affect the whole of the game, and add playable content far more in excess than what is being offered here.

Also that in the future you can no longer expect to receive 4 dlc. So while eso will receive the same amount of content 2 of the 4dlc promised to subscribers will be locked behind pay wall.

So if you don't think eso+ lost value then you don't see what they are doing as is listed in the road ahead.

You will no longer receive 4 dlc for your sub. Instead they are combining 2 of those dlc together and charging you for it. So you have lost 2 dlc worth of content a year with your sub.

Eso+ lost value.

DenMoria · February 2017

I'm normally pretty mellow, but this move takes the cake for me. After 18 months of sub, it looks like I'll just have to end it. I mean, honestly, I don't spend the crowns I get (I already purchased all the DLC's anyway); I don't need a 10% experience boost (my partner has an account - non-sub - and levels at least as quickly as I do); have no use for the cosmetics, stupid mounts, pets, outfits, costumes, skins, etc.; and now, I basically need to buy a new game (Morrowind) and start a new character to play it.

What's the point? Nothing I've gotten thus far is really all that awesome. I can just buy the DLCs as they come out like I would with any other game.

Besides, the community hasn't changed at all in the time I've been out, and that is even more disappointing as it makes me never want to level another champion character to avoid having to deal with them.

alexkdd99 · February 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

This is where a lot of you get it completly wrong, and i'm sorry, but to me is beyond idiotic.

You've subbed for the content Zenimax delivered and you were playing all this time, to think that it would entiltle you to any future devolopment, regardless of scope or whatever makes no sense at all.

They are telling you in advance how Morrowind is gonna be monetized, you can do now whatever the hell you want with your sub.

Lol did you read the road ahead yet? They are taking 2 of the dlc promised to subscribers and calling it a chapter while charging people for what should of been included anyways.

Eso is receiving the same amount of content as previous year, but they are taking 2 of the smaller content releases and combining them together. This is not extra content than what would have been released under 4 dlc a year, they are just removing half of the content and charging extra for it. I think it's idiotic to not see that, so there were on equal ground with that.

driosketch · February 2017

Cherryblossom wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on. Plus, when the subs started we didn't even know how often they would release dlc. At the time is was unknown.

@bowmanz607
Some of us Subbed for the convenience of not needing to make continual purchases of additional content.

It's no longer the case, so without that convenience I see no reason to continue Subbing.

To be quite blunt, it makes no sense to sub long term solely for the content. Even before the gold edition, they have only released 5500 crowns worth of DLC each year since going B2P. You are paying around 4 times that to sub year round.

There must be another reason you sub. Craft Bags? To support the game, in which case you may not mind paying for content like Morrowind. Otherwise, please do reevaluate the cost benefits you get from subbing.

Dawnblade · February 2017

Back when they decided they were not going to have any DLCs for nearly a year and move to new a 'paid chapter' model with a couple of DLCs each year, they should have announced that to the players (and that decision was made months ago - not just the day before the stream).

Instead they hid the fact they were going to change the model and fail to release new DLC content for a year while continuing to take player's money - which to to me is disingenuous, though expected from a for-profit company that takes its customers for granted.

There is nothing wrong with needing to change the business model to run a profitable business (even if it upsets some), but they should have been more upfront and transparent about these changes.

DenMoria · February 2017

Oh well... I suppose ESO will sit on the shelf and gather dust (again). It's okay. It was worth it at first, but I guess I'm over it. I got it so I could play with my other 1/2 and my other 1/2 hates it. So there you go.

Sub off today. Like... right now.

Ozstryker · February 2017

Reverb wrote: »

Zeni has proven themselves time and again to be a company without integrity. This change is aligned with what I expect from them, which is very little at this point.

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

So, people are angry that they pay a subscription and are forced to pay for an expansion?

Are you guys stupid? EVERY SUB MMO MAKES YOU PAY FOR AN EXPANSION. This game isnt even truly a subcription.

Gw2 is btp makes you pay for an expansion

WoW is sub and makes you pay for expansion

Ffxiv is sub makes you pay for expansions

Every major mmo is gonna make you pay for an expansion. I dont understand why people think ZoS is supposed to be different in that regard. Are they not a company trying to make money?

Like, how whiny can this forum get?

Console millenials I guess!
Personally what I don't get is the "they changed some wording, I'm gunna un-sub" blah blah.. If people don't appreciate what it takes to keep an mmo live and progressive then the game as a whole is probally better off without them.
Ive subbed since day 1.... I'm not mad! and certainly wasn't under some illusion that I was owed 4 dlc's a year, who cares if wardens were developed (or partly developed) in beta, or some content was held back till later.. Its coming now, as long as the content remains high quality and the game remains stable then good enough!

Ciju · February 2017

DenMoria wrote: »

Oh well... I suppose ESO will sit on the shelf and gather dust (again). It's okay. It was worth it at first, but I guess I'm over it. I got it so I could play with my other 1/2 and my other 1/2 hates it. So there you go.

Sub off today. Like... right now.

I find it rather sad that you are willing to stop doing something you love, literally just out of spite...

I am very content paying the $40 even though I am an ESO+ member. I've honestly enjoyed the game far beyond expected, and I don't mind paying a bit more to encourage the longevity of the game. People are knit picking so no reason... Honestly, the amount of energy used to post, complain, and try convincing others is more troublesome than the $40 price tag...

ol_BANK_lo · February 2017

Marto wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Good post, OP.

Like many others, I'm also wondering what the difference will be between DLC and a "Chapter". As it is, the Vvardenfell expansion isn't all that different from Wrothgar. The Orsinium DLC gave us a massive zone, a long main quest, two great public dungeons, tons of gorgeous scenery, huge delves with long and compelling quests, and the Maelstrom Arena. It was also given to subscribers for free (or the duration of their subscription, anyway). Are we never going to see a Wrothgar-sized DLC again?

The Warden and Battlegrounds is the reason why Morrowind is a $40 Chapter, instead of a $30 DLC.

Morrowind, so far, promises something similar to Orsinium (A larger than average quest zone, 30h of content, an extra arena/trial with leaderboards.)
What makes Morrowind any different, is the Warden and the Battlegrounds, which bump the price to $40.

It would be nice if you could buy the Warden individually for, say, $15 in crowns. But hey, they have to make money somehow.

The size of the territory, hours of questing and battlegrounds seems equivalent to Orsinium with Maelstrom. The difference is the class, which I would expect to be base game update or purchase at separately at most. The fact that ESO only decided to explain what a chapter update was AFTER Morrowind was announced, and still haven't really defined a "Chapter" is what bothers people. Even after all the explanations, I still don't see it. But that's just me. I agree they need to make money, and they seem to be finding a lot of ways to do that.

DClatt · February 2017

This whole thing is dumb. People that play world of warcraft and other mmo's don't cry this much about buying an expansion. And as far as that goes patches are the equivalent of DLC's in ESO. It's the exact same thing as any normal mmo. Stop crying.

ol_BANK_lo · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

This has been changed from what it was previously (no mention of Crown Store). If you look carefully there are still places that they have forgotten to update this information.

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on.

Yes. It was part of the package. If you pay for 5 items, and only get 4, that doesn't make it ok.

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

A subscription is not a new contract each resub each month. A subscription follows the terms until you are notifiied of the terms changing, and those changes can't take effect until the end of that term. Being 4 months away, it won't violate anyone's terms, but people just wanted advanced notice of the direction they would take. For two years, ESO has never announced this direction, and then they just announce it on stream and change the ESO Plus screen. They still have not given any clear definition of Chapter vs. DLC...and yes I have read the latest post from today. The territory, questing and battlegrounds is roughly equivalent to Orsinium and Maelstrom. The Warden was included in beta, and they pulled it to now put it behind a paywayll. Just all a bit shady IMO.