Let's clear the air on why people are angry

Rohamad_Ali

Sigtric wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The terms are interchangeable in the gaming industry. Here is an article from Gamespot, announcing the Orsinium DLC as a new expansion (and calling it both terms in the actual article).

It wasn't always that way, though. 10-20 years ago, expansions and DLC were considered different things, with DLC being considered as being a smaller amount of content than an expansion. Over the years, people have come to place expansions under the "DLC" heading. Bethesda has always considered DLC and expansions as different things. I've played almost every Bethesda game since Morrowind, and trust me, DLC used to be considered separate from an expansion.

The reason is that there was a time when you couldn't download expansions. They were sold on CD in retail stores. DLC came about when the companies finally realized they could just have people download content instead of having to package it up in a box on CD and market it to stores. Even then, DLC was considered separate from an expansion for a long, long time, and was always thought of as being a smaller amount of content.

I don't get their reason for going backwards on tech and making physical disks to buy . That's like if Snoop Dog decided he needed to release his new album on cassette so he could get more money lol . I don't have disk holders on my desk anymore ...

Some people like having physical disks
Some people like the option
Some people have slow internet connections that are enough to game with but downloads are extremely slow
Some people like physical collectors editions

You're right . Some people like 8 Tracks still . I still don't get why but ok .

gard

Ozstryker wrote: »

gard wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Zeni has proven themselves time and again to be a company without integrity. This change is aligned with what I expect from them, which is very little at this point.

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

So, people are angry that they pay a subscription and are forced to pay for an expansion?

Are you guys stupid? EVERY SUB MMO MAKES YOU PAY FOR AN EXPANSION. This game isnt even truly a subcription.

Gw2 is btp makes you pay for an expansion

WoW is sub and makes you pay for expansion

Ffxiv is sub makes you pay for expansions

Every major mmo is gonna make you pay for an expansion. I dont understand why people think ZoS is supposed to be different in that regard. Are they not a company trying to make money?

Like, how whiny can this forum get?

Console millenials I guess!
Personally what I don't get is the "they changed some wording, I'm gunna un-sub" blah blah.. If people don't appreciate what it takes to keep an mmo live and progressive then the game as a whole is probally better off without them.
Ive subbed since day 1.... I'm not mad! and certainly wasn't under some illusion that I was owed 4 dlc's a year, who cares if wardens were developed (or partly developed) in beta, or some content was held back till later.. Its coming now, as long as the content remains high quality and the game remains stable then good enough!

That's the thing. Take me, for example.

I cancelled my two subs. I'm still playing. So the change is that now, ZOS (the evil empire) doesn't have my money helping to keep things going. Well done, ZOS.
This makes me happy. Revenge of the Nerd.

I'm curious: Doesn't it make you angry when someone makes a commitment to you and then doesn't follow through?
I have a hard time believing that.

Basically you've cut your nose off to spite your face! The thing is now u gotta buy the dlc, bag space etc. etc. But that is your choice, so more power to ya my nerdmigo..

To answer your other question, I honestly don't get hung up on what people say they are going to do, actions speak much louder.. The real measure of their actions is how I (or we) react... In this case, I'm pretty meh, didnt expect much, got alot.. Happy days.

Well, no... I've saved myself a ton of money. Craftbag and crowns to buy dlc were the benefits to me for subbing.
I have thousands of mats in my craftbag. No downside really.

edit - I already own all the dlc. Spent the crowns from my subs on them, just in case something like this ever happened.

corrosivechains

it's hilarious that those same 5 people defending this are still calling it an "expansion" when even ZOS refuses to call it an "expansion". They're being very careful to NOT call it an "expansion", because it isn't on par with what traditional MMO's release as such. It's a "chapter", quit trying to obfuscate what this is.

And it really is only generating this much conversation because it's not on the crown store. Crowns cost money. Subs cost money. Trying to paint those who are unhappy as "just wanting something free", is very disingenuous, and trying to brow beat us and insult us wont convince us to keep dumping money into your hobby. All you are doing is driving people off at this point, but hey, I imagine being the big fish in a little pond is great...until the pond dries up and you're left flopping around wondering how it happened.

Ourorboros

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement#latest

The majority of people (and especially subs) are quite happy with the pricing scheme of the Expansion.

OP: you are in a vocal minority. Please would you all stop spamming threads on this?

I would disagree, with the amount of conversations on this topic I would say it is easily an even split. What I don't understand is how my concern is bothersome to the other side. It's not like those that are displeased asked for it to be free and non-subs pay double. I think subs have a reason to be upset. Crowns are devalued, the cadence of ESO+ included DLC will be cut with this new model, no new ESO+ DLC content has been added since Q32016 and will not appear again until Q32017. Those are legitimate gripes. No one asked for anything for free, money has changed hands, there should be services rendered. They changed the model and the TOS's give them that right, but subs have left money on the table and no one likes to feel cheated.

The amount of conversations does not dictate an even split. Statistically speaking from that one poll, 69% of the people are happy (56% of which are subs). That said, I am a sub, and I am not happy. Also, the 29% that are not happy or on the fence is not an insignificant number either, which is why I think Matt from ESO made his post today.

What post did Frior make? Anyone have a link?

MornaBaine

1. It better be way bigger than Wrothgar.
2. I don't expect to pay the same price for an expansion that I did for the entire original game. I don't CARE that it has the original game included. I already have that. Ergo, I should be paying no more than HALF what they are asking.

Uriel_Nocturne

My wife and I just... don't really care.

We both sub, and we still use the Crowns awarded to fully buy every DLC. We never know what minor calamity might hit that forces us to drop one or both subs, and if that should happen, we'd still like to be able to play that DLC content.

With that in mind, we've both got decades of MMORPG's under our belts. We know that many MMORPG's award DLC packs "free" to their regular subscribers, yet charge everyone equally for significantly larger content packs (i.e. Expansions). This is normal in most every MMO.

It's generally understood in the MMORPG genre, that "DLC/Game Packs" are smaller chunks of content holding anywhere from 3-10 hours of new content (i.e. Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are good examples of "small" DLC [or any DLC released for Destiny ] or Game Packs as some MMO's call them). Giving this for "free" to their subscribers, and charging everyone else full price will not hurt the developers/publishers in any way.

But Expansions generally hold anywhere from 30-100+ hours of new content (i.e. the 'Legion' expansion from WoW is a good example), and cost significantly more resources to create/maintain. With what goes into creating that much content, it would be a drastically bad accounting decision to "give" any of the content on an "Expansion" away for free, even to regular/long-time subscribers. The developer/publisher would simply lose too much revenue to make that type of offer viable.

So it has been an understood balance throughout... pretty much the entire history of MMORPG's that this balance must be maintained in order to keep the players happy with a glut of new content, but still keep the lights on at the development studios.

So like I said at the top of the post; my wife and I really don't care. We sub, and we've already pre-ordered two (2) digital-upgrades/expansions. This pricing/business model is pretty normal throughout the MMORPG genre, and ZOS isn't stepping on any toes in any way in our opinion.

Ojustaboo

Ozstryker wrote: »

Basically you've cut your nose off to spite your face! The thing is now u gotta buy the dlc, bag space etc. etc. But that is your choice, so more power to ya my nerdmigo..

That depends. If like me they bought the dlc anyway, in case they ever unsubbed then as I said in an earlier post, I can run a separate account for extra storage, buy the expansion, buy any dlc thats released over the year and still be financially better off by at least £50 a year than if I subbed quarterly.

Edit: just read that like me, they have bought the dlc

hingarthuub17_ESO

Cherryblossom wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on. Plus, when the subs started we didn't even know how often they would release dlc. At the time is was unknown.

@bowmanz607
Some of us Subbed for the convenience of not needing to make continual purchases of additional content.

It's no longer the case, so without that convenience I see no reason to continue Subbing.

It wasn't just for the convenience, it was also a show of support and a source of revenue for a company that did right by subscribers and who maintains a game that I enjoy(ed). It's not a matter of money. I don't expect anything for free. I had maintained a subscription to play, but no more. I've decided tor remove that support as well as my money (/cancelled) with this latest "expansion" nonsense.

There's no worth to maintaining a subscription to play this game.

Ojustaboo

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

My wife and I just... don't really care.

With that in mind, we've both got decades of MMORPG's under our belts. We know that many MMORPG's award DLC packs "free" to their regular subscribers, yet charge everyone equally for significantly larger content packs (i.e. Expansions). This is normal in most every MMO.

As I have and yes I agree with you. But I think you are missing the main complaint from most of us. We were told we would have quarterly dlc that's also available in the store (ie if you didn't sub you would have to buy), by the time Morrowind comes out, there would be an entire year without this content.

That and only that is why I fully get the complaints.

But for me I simply worked it out and realised it's cheaper not to sub anyway

The pricing model may be normal, the way they have treated their customers by not giving them what they said they would, might also be normal in the gaming industry, that doesn't make it right.

If you are happy, I'm glad for you, carry on subbing.

I'm not trying to put anyone off the game or anyone off subbing, I've stressed that different people get different things out of the sub.

I'm simply saying that for me, the only real benefit is the crafting bag and I could only justify the £100 a year that costs as I also get free dlc every few months that the non subscribers pay for.

But as this hasn't been the case, I've decided to cancel. As simple as that. And due to what I've said in above posts, I totally understand the complaints, even though personally buying the expansion doesn't bother me at all, had I also got some of the promised dlc, I would still be a happy subscriber and wouldn't be venting on this forum.

However this outcry is what caused me to re-evaluate my sub and it was at this point I realised I was financially better off buying crowns in the store and buying dlc outright. If I'd looked this hard into it 6 months ago I would have come to the same conclusion and not subbed at all.

End result, over the course of a year, Zos gets at least £50 less off me (after me buying the expansion), and probably more like £70 - £80 less.

Just doesn't make sense to me that's all.

Still, if it's just the small amount of disgruntled posters on here that are bothered, then Morrowind will take in enough new/returning players for our smaller payments to be completely insignificant, and many of them will also probably sub too.

If on the other hand it turns out that a lot of people feel like me (can never tell from forum polls, few players actually read it yet alone log on and post), then annoying us and making us feel cheated, is simply costing them money.

Either way, happy players are entitled to tell us all they are happy, and players that feel cheated are entitled to say why they feel like this.

corrosivechains

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

My wife and I just... don't really care.

We both sub, and we still use the Crowns awarded to fully buy every DLC. We never know what minor calamity might hit that forces us to drop one or both subs, and if that should happen, we'd still like to be able to play that DLC content.

With that in mind, we've both got decades of MMORPG's under our belts. We know that many MMORPG's award DLC packs "free" to their regular subscribers, yet charge everyone equally for significantly larger content packs (i.e. Expansions). This is normal in most every MMO.

It's generally understood in the MMORPG genre, that "DLC/Game Packs" are smaller chunks of content holding anywhere from 3-10 hours of new content (i.e. Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are good examples of "small" DLC [or any DLC released for Destiny ] or Game Packs as some MMO's call them). Giving this for "free" to their subscribers, and charging everyone else full price will not hurt the developers/publishers in any way.

But Expansions generally hold anywhere from 30-100+ hours of new content (i.e. the 'Legion' expansion from WoW is a good example), and cost significantly more resources to create/maintain. With what goes into creating that much content, it would be a drastically bad accounting decision to "give" any of the content on an "Expansion" away for free, even to regular/long-time subscribers. The developer/publisher would simply lose too much revenue to make that type of offer viable.

So it has been an understood balance throughout... pretty much the entire history of MMORPG's that this balance must be maintained in order to keep the players happy with a glut of new content, but still keep the lights on at the development studios.

So like I said at the top of the post; my wife and I really don't care. We sub, and we've already pre-ordered two (2) digital-upgrades/expansions. This pricing/business model is pretty normal throughout the MMORPG genre, and ZOS isn't stepping on any toes in any way in our opinion.

as to the bolded part, WoW seems to be the go to for justifying this. You people do realize WoW is setting up a system were WoW tokens, an item which grants you subscription time which you can purchase with in game gold...is being slated to become an item which adds funds to your Blizzard account, which you'll be able to spend on in game services, other Blizzard products, such as new games, expansions, booster packs, new character unlocks for Heroes of the Storm and Overwatch, and anything else they have planned for the future? But yeah keep defending ZoS's decision here like they aren't shooting themselves in the foot with how the market is changing in the opposite direction.

ol_BANK_lo

Ourorboros wrote: »

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement#latest

The majority of people (and especially subs) are quite happy with the pricing scheme of the Expansion.

OP: you are in a vocal minority. Please would you all stop spamming threads on this?

I would disagree, with the amount of conversations on this topic I would say it is easily an even split. What I don't understand is how my concern is bothersome to the other side. It's not like those that are displeased asked for it to be free and non-subs pay double. I think subs have a reason to be upset. Crowns are devalued, the cadence of ESO+ included DLC will be cut with this new model, no new ESO+ DLC content has been added since Q32016 and will not appear again until Q32017. Those are legitimate gripes. No one asked for anything for free, money has changed hands, there should be services rendered. They changed the model and the TOS's give them that right, but subs have left money on the table and no one likes to feel cheated.

The amount of conversations does not dictate an even split. Statistically speaking from that one poll, 69% of the people are happy (56% of which are subs). That said, I am a sub, and I am not happy. Also, the 29% that are not happy or on the fence is not an insignificant number either, which is why I think Matt from ESO made his post today.

What post did Frior make? Anyone have a link?

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2017/02/01/welcome-to-2017

Uriel_Nocturne

corrosivechains wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

My wife and I just... don't really care.

We both sub, and we still use the Crowns awarded to fully buy every DLC. We never know what minor calamity might hit that forces us to drop one or both subs, and if that should happen, we'd still like to be able to play that DLC content.

With that in mind, we've both got decades of MMORPG's under our belts. We know that many MMORPG's award DLC packs "free" to their regular subscribers, yet charge everyone equally for significantly larger content packs (i.e. Expansions). This is normal in most every MMO.

It's generally understood in the MMORPG genre, that "DLC/Game Packs" are smaller chunks of content holding anywhere from 3-10 hours of new content (i.e. Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are good examples of "small" DLC [or any DLC released for Destiny ] or Game Packs as some MMO's call them). Giving this for "free" to their subscribers, and charging everyone else full price will not hurt the developers/publishers in any way.

But Expansions generally hold anywhere from 30-100+ hours of new content (i.e. the 'Legion' expansion from WoW is a good example), and cost significantly more resources to create/maintain. With what goes into creating that much content, it would be a drastically bad accounting decision to "give" any of the content on an "Expansion" away for free, even to regular/long-time subscribers. The developer/publisher would simply lose too much revenue to make that type of offer viable.

So it has been an understood balance throughout... pretty much the entire history of MMORPG's that this balance must be maintained in order to keep the players happy with a glut of new content, but still keep the lights on at the development studios.

So like I said at the top of the post; my wife and I really don't care. We sub, and we've already pre-ordered two (2) digital-upgrades/expansions. This pricing/business model is pretty normal throughout the MMORPG genre, and ZOS isn't stepping on any toes in any way in our opinion.

as to the bolded part, WoW seems to be the go to for justifying this. You people do realize WoW is setting up a system were WoW tokens, an item which grants you subscription time which you can purchase with in game gold...is being slated to become an item which adds funds to your Blizzard account, which you'll be able to spend on in game services, other Blizzard products, such as new games, expansions, booster packs, new character unlocks for Heroes of the Storm and Overwatch, and anything else they have planned for the future? But yeah keep defending ZoS's decision here like they aren't shooting themselves in the foot with how the market is changing in the opposite direction.

To be very fair; WoW was simply the first example to come to mind, but not because of their "business model" or what they have working in the pipeline for their business model.

I thought of Legion simply because of the size differential between and actual "Expansion" and the smaller "DLC/Game Packs" are a good comparison to ESO's smaller "DLC" and what an "Expansion" like Morrowind is purporting to be.

Comparative file/content size. That's all.

But as I said in my post, there's a long history across the MMORPG genre for not only differentiating between "DLC" and "Expansions", but also the different pricing options for them.

WoW is not the first game to make that differentiation, nor will they be the last. MMO's for DECADES have been doing this, and it robs no one of anything. They price them and make/change new and old pricing models alike to accommodate for different content packs.

So what WoW is doing to change their subscription service, I care not a whit about. I quit playing WoW well over five (5) years ago, and I have no urge to go back at this time.

But my comparison was purely about the size of the comparable content packs, and how the pricing structure for ESO+ members getting DLC for "free", but still having to pay for an "Expansion", is not out of the ordinary in any way.

To read my post any differently is to take it waaaaay out of context, and to completely ignore what I actually wrote. When you take that one specific sentence, and treat it like the core of my post, it vastly twists into something I did not say in any way.

Read the whole post.

Quit cherry-picking my words to fit your butt-hurt.

willlienellson

According to this poll https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement/p1

69% are happy.
15% are undecided.
So only 16% of the forum members are unhappy.

Additionally, I think most people recognize that forums and feedback of all types generally skews to the negative side because satisfied customers are less inclined to provide feedback at all.

[SNIp]

[Edited for bait comments]

mvffins

Agree throwing down another 40 dollars on top of subscription is not much, however they need to give us subscribers another reason to stay subscribed, as the DLCs in crownstore are now given freely to new players during package sales, which was originally the primary reason to sub.

Rohamad_Ali

mvffins wrote: »

Agree throwing down another 40 dollars on top of subscription is not much, however they need to give us subscribers another reason to stay subscribed, as the DLCs in crownstore are now given freely to new players during package sales, which was originally the primary reason to sub.

Careful what you ask for . You may get it .

A couple other games did this same scenario and went free to play shortly after . Then you had to subscribe to use basic stuff or pay to unlock basic things . This is why I'm not making a big stink . I complained the first day of the news and then dropped it . Because we still have a decent choice right now and I'll take that over free to play any day . Free to play is just bad and is not really free or a choice . I'll accept just about anything to avoid that mess .

Sigtric

corrosivechains wrote: »

it's hilarious that those same 5 people defending this are still calling it an "expansion" when even ZOS refuses to call it an "expansion". They're being very careful to NOT call it an "expansion", because it isn't on par with what traditional MMO's release as such. It's a "chapter", quit trying to obfuscate what this is.

And it really is only generating this much conversation because it's not on the crown store. Crowns cost money. Subs cost money. Trying to paint those who are unhappy as "just wanting something free", is very disingenuous, and trying to brow beat us and insult us wont convince us to keep dumping money into your hobby. All you are doing is driving people off at this point, but hey, I imagine being the big fish in a little pond is great...until the pond dries up and you're left flopping around wondering how it happened.

Except Rich @ ZOS, did in fact call it an expansion, and then proceed to explain why they prefer not to use the term. I don't necessarily agree with why they don't like the term, but they created it and call it whatever they want.

But at the end, so what? Expansion or Chapter they've decided it does not qualify for crown/sub access. It's bigger than Wrothgar, comes with a new system, a new class and raid content. By MMO standards this is a larger paid feature and as someone whose been a sub since launch (save one billing cycle where it was canceled for a couple weeks before moving the billing date) - I am completely happy with it.

I've been saying for some time ESO needs a proper MMO style paid expansion, and here one is.

Bloody-Goodbyes

On a positive note, its nice to see sub and crown money going toward something that seems worthwhile: Morrowind Expansion. New, and complete content. Long time players know it wasn't always this way, there was a time when we were subbed and truly received nothing for months. Now your sub gets you the crafting bag, costume dyeing, 1.5k crowns and a few other perks that are well worth your 15$.

I pay my subs on two accounts, purchased a collectors Morrowind expansion for them both. If they keep 'giving' their new content away to subs with no increase in revenue shy of crown store sales then that will be the end of content for us. It is assumed that crown store purchases and subs are enough to keep content the level of Orsinium, and Morrowind coming and pay the creators, it costs a lot more than most realize.

bowmanz607

Sigtric wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

it's hilarious that those same 5 people defending this are still calling it an "expansion" when even ZOS refuses to call it an "expansion". They're being very careful to NOT call it an "expansion", because it isn't on par with what traditional MMO's release as such. It's a "chapter", quit trying to obfuscate what this is.

And it really is only generating this much conversation because it's not on the crown store. Crowns cost money. Subs cost money. Trying to paint those who are unhappy as "just wanting something free", is very disingenuous, and trying to brow beat us and insult us wont convince us to keep dumping money into your hobby. All you are doing is driving people off at this point, but hey, I imagine being the big fish in a little pond is great...until the pond dries up and you're left flopping around wondering how it happened.

Except Rich @ ZOS, did in fact call it an expansion, and then proceed to explain why they prefer not to use the term. I don't necessarily agree with why they don't like the term, but they created it and call it whatever they want.

But at the end, so what? Expansion or Chapter they've decided it does not qualify for crown/sub access. It's bigger than Wrothgar, comes with a new system, a new class and raid content. By MMO standards this is a larger paid feature and as someone whose been a sub since launch (save one billing cycle where it was canceled for a couple weeks before moving the billing date) - I am completely happy with it.

I've been saying for some time ESO needs a proper MMO style paid expansion, and here one is.

The term they give it really doesn't matter. If it was in crown store and they called it and expansion or chapters, I would damn near guarantee that they would have to give it to subs at no cost. I would be mightily suprised if a legal entity said sorry it's an expansion not dlc. It is highly highly unlikely.

DaveMoeDee

sevomd69 wrote: »

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

This has been changed from what it was previously (no mention of Crown Store). If you look carefully there are still places that they have forgotten to update this information.

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on.

Yes. It was part of the package. If you pay for 5 items, and only get 4, that doesn't make it ok.

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

A subscription is not a new contract each resub each month. A subscription follows the terms until you are notifiied of the terms changing, and those changes can't take effect until the end of that term. Being 4 months away, it won't violate anyone's terms, but people just wanted advanced notice of the direction they would take. For two years, ESO has never announced this direction, and then they just announce it on stream and change the ESO Plus screen. They still have not given any clear definition of Chapter vs. DLC...and yes I have read the latest post from today. The territory, questing and battlegrounds is roughly equivalent to Orsinium and Maelstrom. The Warden was included in beta, and they pulled it to now put it behind a paywayll. Just all a bit shady IMO.

Actually they don't even have to notify you or have the same terms throughout the month subscription... and you agreed to that when you signed their ToS...

And when one party can just change things on a whim, the other side gets to complain about their ethics and treatment of customers.

DaveMoeDee

Sigtric wrote: »

Salganis wrote: »

I think the problem would be solved if the subscriptions take off the crowns equivalent to 3 months to upgrade the account, remember that the crowns are not worth the dollars because you can buy them on offer, but the subscription is not on offers so it would be a fair option for subscribers.

Why 3 months?

I'm guessing because 3 months make a quarter and new content is a quarterly even, but I'm not sure what he meant.

bowmanz607

@sevomd69
Can you point to where in terms of service it says that please?

Also, you can't change the terms of a contract part way through the contract unless agreed to by both parties. They can change them after that contract, aka in between renewals, but it is highly likely they have to provide notice in such a case because the renewal is automatic and you don't get to see the changed terms. The question is really whether they have or will give sufficient notice of the change before you renew your sub that would include morrowind release.

sevomd69

bowmanz607 wrote: »

@sevomd69
Can you point to where in terms of service it says that please?

Also, you can't change the terms of a contract part way through the contract unless agreed to by both parties. They can change them after that contract, aka in between renewals, but it is highly likely they have to provide notice in such a case because the renewal is automatic and you don't get to see the changed terms. The question is really whether they have or will give sufficient notice of the change before you renew your sub that would include morrowind release.

Check zenimax.com/legal_terms periodically for new information and terms that govern Your purchase, use and receipt of ZeniMax Services. ZeniMax may modify these Terms of Service at its sole discretion at any time, by posting the revised version at zenimax.com/legal_terms or upon other notice to You. Unless otherwise noted, revisions shall be effective immediately and You will need to agree to the revised Terms of Service before You continue using any Services. By continuing to use the Services or our websites, You agree to any revised Terms of Service. If You do not agree to the revised Terms of Service and/or revised Supplemental Terms, You must discontinue further use of any of the Services, contact Customer Services at support.bethsoft.com or from North America dial 1-844-ZENIMAX (1-844-936-4629) or from outside the U.S., +800-6044-6044 or +1-678-460-4893 (International rates may apply, please contact your carrier for details) and cancel all of Your Account(s), memberships or subscription(s).

Ourorboros

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

it's hilarious that those same 5 people defending this are still calling it an "expansion" when even ZOS refuses to call it an "expansion". They're being very careful to NOT call it an "expansion", because it isn't on par with what traditional MMO's release as such. It's a "chapter", quit trying to obfuscate what this is.

And it really is only generating this much conversation because it's not on the crown store. Crowns cost money. Subs cost money. Trying to paint those who are unhappy as "just wanting something free", is very disingenuous, and trying to brow beat us and insult us wont convince us to keep dumping money into your hobby. All you are doing is driving people off at this point, but hey, I imagine being the big fish in a little pond is great...until the pond dries up and you're left flopping around wondering how it happened.

Except Rich @ ZOS, did in fact call it an expansion, and then proceed to explain why they prefer not to use the term. I don't necessarily agree with why they don't like the term, but they created it and call it whatever they want.

But at the end, so what? Expansion or Chapter they've decided it does not qualify for crown/sub access. It's bigger than Wrothgar, comes with a new system, a new class and raid content. By MMO standards this is a larger paid feature and as someone whose been a sub since launch (save one billing cycle where it was canceled for a couple weeks before moving the billing date) - I am completely happy with it.

I've been saying for some time ESO needs a proper MMO style paid expansion, and here one is.

The term they give it really doesn't matter. If it was in crown store and they called it and expansion or chapters, I would damn near guarantee that they would have to give it to subs at no cost. I would be mightily suprised if a legal entity said sorry it's an expansion not dlc. It is highly highly unlikely.

How about we call a spade a spade. I'm not fooled that zos is using this relabeling as a means of charging for new content. If you buy into their PR gambit, shame on you. So they added a few bells and whistles to the package, it's still not that different from Wrothgar. I can call my crap a chocolate bar, but I still ain't gonna eat it, not even the extra large ones. All this not withstanding, I look forward to Morrowind as well. Just the way the changes were foisted on us has solidified zos as not a consumer friendly company.

sevomd69

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

This has been changed from what it was previously (no mention of Crown Store). If you look carefully there are still places that they have forgotten to update this information.

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on.

Yes. It was part of the package. If you pay for 5 items, and only get 4, that doesn't make it ok.

I noticed that. But, they include it where it is important which is on the screen where you choose your sub. Plus, each time you resub it is a new contract. New terms can be added. Even the long term subs expire and have to renew before it drops.

A subscription is not a new contract each resub each month. A subscription follows the terms until you are notifiied of the terms changing, and those changes can't take effect until the end of that term. Being 4 months away, it won't violate anyone's terms, but people just wanted advanced notice of the direction they would take. For two years, ESO has never announced this direction, and then they just announce it on stream and change the ESO Plus screen. They still have not given any clear definition of Chapter vs. DLC...and yes I have read the latest post from today. The territory, questing and battlegrounds is roughly equivalent to Orsinium and Maelstrom. The Warden was included in beta, and they pulled it to now put it behind a paywayll. Just all a bit shady IMO.

Actually they don't even have to notify you or have the same terms throughout the month subscription... and you agreed to that when you signed their ToS...

And when one party can just change things on a whim, the other side gets to complain about their ethics and treatment of customers.

I have no issue with the complaints, but its sort of disingenuous when everyone who is playing the game agreed to the ToS...

corrosivechains

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

My wife and I just... don't really care.

We both sub, and we still use the Crowns awarded to fully buy every DLC. We never know what minor calamity might hit that forces us to drop one or both subs, and if that should happen, we'd still like to be able to play that DLC content.

With that in mind, we've both got decades of MMORPG's under our belts. We know that many MMORPG's award DLC packs "free" to their regular subscribers, yet charge everyone equally for significantly larger content packs (i.e. Expansions). This is normal in most every MMO.

It's generally understood in the MMORPG genre, that "DLC/Game Packs" are smaller chunks of content holding anywhere from 3-10 hours of new content (i.e. Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are good examples of "small" DLC [or any DLC released for Destiny ] or Game Packs as some MMO's call them). Giving this for "free" to their subscribers, and charging everyone else full price will not hurt the developers/publishers in any way.

But Expansions generally hold anywhere from 30-100+ hours of new content (i.e. the 'Legion' expansion from WoW is a good example), and cost significantly more resources to create/maintain. With what goes into creating that much content, it would be a drastically bad accounting decision to "give" any of the content on an "Expansion" away for free, even to regular/long-time subscribers. The developer/publisher would simply lose too much revenue to make that type of offer viable.

So it has been an understood balance throughout... pretty much the entire history of MMORPG's that this balance must be maintained in order to keep the players happy with a glut of new content, but still keep the lights on at the development studios.

So like I said at the top of the post; my wife and I really don't care. We sub, and we've already pre-ordered two (2) digital-upgrades/expansions. This pricing/business model is pretty normal throughout the MMORPG genre, and ZOS isn't stepping on any toes in any way in our opinion.

as to the bolded part, WoW seems to be the go to for justifying this. You people do realize WoW is setting up a system were WoW tokens, an item which grants you subscription time which you can purchase with in game gold...is being slated to become an item which adds funds to your Blizzard account, which you'll be able to spend on in game services, other Blizzard products, such as new games, expansions, booster packs, new character unlocks for Heroes of the Storm and Overwatch, and anything else they have planned for the future? But yeah keep defending ZoS's decision here like they aren't shooting themselves in the foot with how the market is changing in the opposite direction.

To be very fair; WoW was simply the first example to come to mind, but not because of their "business model" or what they have working in the pipeline for their business model.

I thought of Legion simply because of the size differential between and actual "Expansion" and the smaller "DLC/Game Packs" are a good comparison to ESO's smaller "DLC" and what an "Expansion" like Morrowind is purporting to be.

Comparative file/content size. That's all.

But as I said in my post, there's a long history across the MMORPG genre for not only differentiating between "DLC" and "Expansions", but also the different pricing options for them.

WoW is not the first game to make that differentiation, nor will they be the last. MMO's for DECADES have been doing this, and it robs no one of anything. They price them and make/change new and old pricing models alike to accommodate for different content packs.

So what WoW is doing to change their subscription service, I care not a whit about. I quit playing WoW well over five (5) years ago, and I have no urge to go back at this time.

But my comparison was purely about the size of the comparable content packs, and how the pricing structure for ESO+ members getting DLC for "free", but still having to pay for an "Expansion", is not out of the ordinary in any way.

To read my post any differently is to take it waaaaay out of context, and to completely ignore what I actually wrote. When you take that one specific sentence, and treat it like the core of my post, it vastly twists into something I did not say in any way.

Read the whole post.

Quit cherry-picking my words to fit your butt-hurt.

Explain to me then when has WoW ever made a differentiation between DLC and Expansion, and what content they released as paid for DLC instead of an expansion? There isn't one and they never made the differentiation between the two.

corrosivechains

willlienellson wrote: »

According to this poll https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement/p1

69% are happy.
15% are undecided.
So only 16% of the forum members are unhappy.

Additionally, I think most people recognize that forums and feedback of all types generally skews to the negative side because satisfied customers are less inclined to provide feedback at all.

What we really need to clear the air about is how a few petulant children are bombarding the forums with a constant barrage of nonsense.

And we all know how accurate online polls are. We salute you Madam President Clinton.

sevomd69

corrosivechains wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

According to this poll https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement/p1

69% are happy.
15% are undecided.
So only 16% of the forum members are unhappy.

Additionally, I think most people recognize that forums and feedback of all types generally skews to the negative side because satisfied customers are less inclined to provide feedback at all.

What we really need to clear the air about is how a few petulant children are bombarding the forums with a constant barrage of nonsense.

And we all know how accurate online polls are. We salute you Madam President Clinton.

So a better bellwether would be to base it on about 10 or so salty forum posters... uhhh. ok.

bowmanz607

sevomd69 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

@sevomd69
Can you point to where in terms of service it says that please?

Also, you can't change the terms of a contract part way through the contract unless agreed to by both parties. They can change them after that contract, aka in between renewals, but it is highly likely they have to provide notice in such a case because the renewal is automatic and you don't get to see the changed terms. The question is really whether they have or will give sufficient notice of the change before you renew your sub that would include morrowind release.

Check zenimax.com/legal_terms periodically for new information and terms that govern Your purchase, use and receipt of ZeniMax Services. ZeniMax may modify these Terms of Service at its sole discretion at any time, by posting the revised version at zenimax.com/legal_terms or upon other notice to You. Unless otherwise noted, revisions shall be effective immediately and You will need to agree to the revised Terms of Service before You continue using any Services. By continuing to use the Services or our websites, You agree to any revised Terms of Service. If You do not agree to the revised Terms of Service and/or revised Supplemental Terms, You must discontinue further use of any of the Services, contact Customer Services at support.bethsoft.com or from North America dial 1-844-ZENIMAX (1-844-936-4629) or from outside the U.S., +800-6044-6044 or +1-678-460-4893 (International rates may apply, please contact your carrier for details) and cancel all of Your Account(s), memberships or subscription(s).

Ya they need a better legal team imo. In the US i dont think that is legal. They would be required to give you notice of some sort that either a) points you in the direction of the website and says "hey terms changed" in a fashion that you are reasonably calculated to get that message and or b) give some other sort of reasonable notice as they stated. Especially when your talking about changing the terms of a contract mid-contract (assuming we are talking mid-contract) where there is cash not just hey you agree not to cheat or say these words in game (or something along those lines).

According to a person I am talking with in another thread (cant back this up in anyway, but guy seems legit) merely pointing someone to terms on a page is not good enough. there must be a clear indication that they were read.

bowmanz607

Ourorboros wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

it's hilarious that those same 5 people defending this are still calling it an "expansion" when even ZOS refuses to call it an "expansion". They're being very careful to NOT call it an "expansion", because it isn't on par with what traditional MMO's release as such. It's a "chapter", quit trying to obfuscate what this is.

And it really is only generating this much conversation because it's not on the crown store. Crowns cost money. Subs cost money. Trying to paint those who are unhappy as "just wanting something free", is very disingenuous, and trying to brow beat us and insult us wont convince us to keep dumping money into your hobby. All you are doing is driving people off at this point, but hey, I imagine being the big fish in a little pond is great...until the pond dries up and you're left flopping around wondering how it happened.

Except Rich @ ZOS, did in fact call it an expansion, and then proceed to explain why they prefer not to use the term. I don't necessarily agree with why they don't like the term, but they created it and call it whatever they want.

But at the end, so what? Expansion or Chapter they've decided it does not qualify for crown/sub access. It's bigger than Wrothgar, comes with a new system, a new class and raid content. By MMO standards this is a larger paid feature and as someone whose been a sub since launch (save one billing cycle where it was canceled for a couple weeks before moving the billing date) - I am completely happy with it.

I've been saying for some time ESO needs a proper MMO style paid expansion, and here one is.

The term they give it really doesn't matter. If it was in crown store and they called it and expansion or chapters, I would damn near guarantee that they would have to give it to subs at no cost. I would be mightily suprised if a legal entity said sorry it's an expansion not dlc. It is highly highly unlikely.

How about we call a spade a spade. I'm not fooled that zos is using this relabeling as a means of charging for new content. If you buy into their PR gambit, shame on you. So they added a few bells and whistles to the package, it's still not that different from Wrothgar. I can call my crap a chocolate bar, but I still ain't gonna eat it, not even the extra large ones. All this not withstanding, I look forward to Morrowind as well. Just the way the changes were foisted on us has solidified zos as not a consumer friendly company.

i agree. there way around it ultimately is not the name is my point. It is the fact it is not in the crown store.

sevomd69

bowmanz607 wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

@sevomd69
Can you point to where in terms of service it says that please?

Also, you can't change the terms of a contract part way through the contract unless agreed to by both parties. They can change them after that contract, aka in between renewals, but it is highly likely they have to provide notice in such a case because the renewal is automatic and you don't get to see the changed terms. The question is really whether they have or will give sufficient notice of the change before you renew your sub that would include morrowind release.

Check zenimax.com/legal_terms periodically for new information and terms that govern Your purchase, use and receipt of ZeniMax Services. ZeniMax may modify these Terms of Service at its sole discretion at any time, by posting the revised version at zenimax.com/legal_terms or upon other notice to You. Unless otherwise noted, revisions shall be effective immediately and You will need to agree to the revised Terms of Service before You continue using any Services. By continuing to use the Services or our websites, You agree to any revised Terms of Service. If You do not agree to the revised Terms of Service and/or revised Supplemental Terms, You must discontinue further use of any of the Services, contact Customer Services at support.bethsoft.com or from North America dial 1-844-ZENIMAX (1-844-936-4629) or from outside the U.S., +800-6044-6044 or +1-678-460-4893 (International rates may apply, please contact your carrier for details) and cancel all of Your Account(s), memberships or subscription(s).

Ya they need a better legal team imo. In the US i dont think that is legal. They would be required to give you notice of some sort that either a) points you in the direction of the website and says "hey terms changed" in a fashion that you are reasonably calculated to get that message and or b) give some other sort of reasonable notice as they stated. Especially when your talking about changing the terms of a contract mid-contract (assuming we are talking mid-contract) where there is cash not just hey you agree not to cheat or say these words in game (or something along those lines).

According to a person I am talking with in another thread (cant back this up in anyway, but guy seems legit) merely pointing someone to terms on a page is not good enough. there must be a clear indication that they were read.

I think the legality of the ToS has been reviewed ad nauseam by their, I'm sure very well paid legal team... It is a pretty standard ToS for all games...