Let's clear the air on why people are angry

Surak73

sadownik wrote: »

So how you define DLC and expansion? Just asking, because for the last 18 years i have been playing MMOs and still dont know. Please help!

An expansion is a new content added to the game (something that expands the game...): Orsinium was an expansion, like Gold Coast, Hew Bane, Imperial City and the new hist dungeons. When this new content is downloadable, it is - surprise surprise!... - a downloadable content, that is to say a dlc.

So, every dlc is an expansion - since it adds something to the game -, and every expansion, if it is dowloadable (like Morrowind and all the previous expansions) is a dlc.

Simple like that.

Cadbury

I've always wondered when a person buys a lifetime subscription on a new sub-based MMO, do they get upset when say, a year later the game goes F2P/ B2P and their "perks" become available to all?

sadownik

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Cherryblossom

sevomd69 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to by this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

I understand where you're coming from, but.... I am a subscriber... and I have never interchanged the terms DLC and expansion... but that may be biased by the fact that I have previously played many MMO's...

I don't see how this is any change from current DLC, 30 hours game play is much the same as Orsinium.

I think an explanation as to why this is now considered an expansion is necessary.

Battle Grounds is independent of Morrowind, New class is also independent of Morrowind.

Morrowind is just a DLC as far as I can see.

Ozstryker

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Does being patronising about someones quote on an absurd post make you feel like a hypocrite kiddo?

Osteos

Cherryblossom wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to by this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

I understand where you're coming from, but.... I am a subscriber... and I have never interchanged the terms DLC and expansion... but that may be biased by the fact that I have previously played many MMO's...

I don't see how this is any change from current DLC, 30 hours game play is much the same as Orsinium.

I think an explanation as to why this is now considered an expansion is necessary.

Battle Grounds is independent of Morrowind, New class is also independent of Morrowind.

Morrowind is just a DLC as far as I can see.

Then you need some glasses. How are battle grounds independent when the maps are in morrowind?

Ballzy321

I've been subbing since start. There's no benefit to being subbed except craft bag. It woulda been cheaper for me to buy dlcs and just buy a char slot and create a toon to act as a craft bag. Wut benefits is there to being subbed? Nothing special except crowns to waste on crown crates. I think this is a slap in the face. This expansion better have more than orsinium.

Ojustaboo

ESO Live Today Feb 13th 2015

00:16:30

ESO Plus members, while you are a member you have access to the regions, so different dungeons, additional content, you're going to have access to that.

Ojustaboo

Cadbury wrote: »

I've always wondered when a person buys a lifetime subscription on a new sub-based MMO, do they get upset when say, a year later the game goes F2P/ B2P and their "perks" become available to all?

When Lotro changed ,those with lifetime membership got (and still get I believe) monthly turbine points (think eso crowns) for free, the same that those that choose to pay the sub now get

Unsent.Soul

Mentioned in another thread, warden is from alpha, been datamined for awhile, nothing is new.

Battlegrounds were showcased and created 2013/2014, just now we're seeing them.

Dlc area was created in 2014. Nothing new, again.

They've held these things back, bundled them together instead of giving quarterly content updates per schedule, and named it an expansion.

Redefined what eso + does and make crowns for cosmetics and miniscule content only.

adriant1978

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

IS ZoS going to call everything an expansion now ?

I have a feeling we'll never see an Orsinium sized DLC again.

sadownik

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Does being patronising about someones quote on an absurd post make you feel like a hypocrite kiddo?

Not really, but i do hope that it helps you, no seriously i do. I sometimes have a worse days myself but then the whole life experience allows me to withhold such behavior no matter if its face to face or in cozy anonymity of net.

Ozstryker

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Does being patronising about someones quote on an absurd post make you feel like a hypocrite kiddo?

Not really, but i do hope that it helps you, no seriously i do. I sometimes have a worse days myself but then the whole life experience allows me to withhold such behavior no matter if its face to face or in cozy anonymity of net.

Exactly what behaviour are you withholding? think on, and try to better articulate your next hypocritical comment Sunshine.

But to be on topic, paid expansions have been the norm in the MMO market for some time, the business model is not a new one, just new to ESO!
Exactly how much content, quality and value for money is something we wont really know till PTS?
I hope for the best .

sadownik

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Does being patronising about someones quote on an absurd post make you feel like a hypocrite kiddo?

Not really, but i do hope that it helps you, no seriously i do. I sometimes have a worse days myself but then the whole life experience allows me to withhold such behavior no matter if its face to face or in cozy anonymity of net.

Exactly what behaviour are you withholding? think on, and try to better articulate your next hypocritical comment Sunshine.

But to be on topic, paid expansions have been the norm in the MMO market for some time, the business model is not a new one, just new to ESO!
Exactly how much content, quality and value for money is something we wont really know till PTS?
I hope for the best .

That i can agree with, besides the fact that it wont go to PTS it will be tested in hush hush conditions by testers of the highest order of secrecy last i have heard. So... yeah, sub rosa all the way.

SunfireKnight86

UrQuan wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to buy this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

"We didn't know there was a difference between DLC and Expansion Packs. We got exactly what we paid for, every month, for years. Now there is this other unrelated thing, and we are very clearly angry about being charged for it, because it's all about the money. We'll be buying it anyway, but we wanted to come to the forums and make a stink about it because... I don't know why. Me and the 20 other people who are mad just like making a stink, but don't worry, we'll always word everything in such a way that it sounds like we are a large group making a valid complaint."

FTFY

Oh great, here we go again with the ridiculous strawman arguments...

I'm going to do you a favor since you people heard that once on reddit and never bothered to look it up.

STRAWMAN:an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Your "argument", repeated endlessly, is that you feel the expansion should be covered by the sub. You base this on nothing but confusion about the difference between DLC and an Expansion Pack, and since you're a bunch of sophists, you just keep trying to twist words and "promises" around to suit your point. But you don't actually have one. You're bent because you aren't getting your way.

I didn't "set up a strawman" I reworded the comment to make the meaning plain instead of continuing to let you hide it behind a bunch of ***, because like reddit, you're a handful of sophists trying to pretend you speak for some imaginary majority.

Oh really? My argument? Are you going to claim in this thread too that I'm saying it should be free for subscribers? Go and find me saying that. I dare you. When you don't find it anywhere I'll expect you to come back and apologize. Although I'm still waiting for that apology after you lied about the link that I gave you not showing ZOS saying that Orsinium was 20 hours of story content.

And let me give you a definition of a strawman argument:
STRAWMAN:an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Wait, but that's the same definition you gave! Exactly. Because you're intentionally misrepresenting the arguments that people are making because it's easier to defeat than the arguments they're really making. Go back and re-read your post. 90% of it is stuff that you made up out of whole cloth, and has nothing to do with the arguments people are actually making. It's a perfect example of a strawman.

You and the other complainers have been spewing so much *** so fast that I'm having trouble keeping up. Sorry if I mistook you for the other twenty people acting as if the sky is falling because you aren't getting your way. Since you're all saying the same thing, it really doesn't matter, does it?

Ah I see, why let facts get in the way right? When you can "re-word" things to completely lie about the arguments people are making, why bother paying attention to who is making those arguments anyway? Since you're just going to change the arguments to be what you want to argue against anyway, why not change the people too?

Remind me again what your point was since it's so different than the people who are mad their sub doesn't cover the xpac?

MythicEmperor

I think that what other developers name their new content is irrelevant. Orsinium is by far the largest and best DLC to date (in terms of content). Morrowind is twice the size, with a new class, battlegrounds, and more. Relative to the bar set by ZOS, these two content drops are not comparable. Morrowind seems to have a lot more work put into it, which I feel justifies the lack of its inclusion in the sub. If they called SotH an expansion, that would be an entirely different story.

Pallio

1 - People didn't buy dlc/crowns for dlc or sub to play new content, content with old content and PVP does not require dlcs, so the PVP crowd had little incentive to spend $$$.

2 - They need a new revenue stream that will get everyone, pvp/pve/subs etc. To spend $$$ on new content.

3 - New class will make us buy more character slots, after you buy the expansion.

4 - This opens up the next revenue stream in 2017, class change token, 10k tokens and would sell great.

In summary: Money,Money,Money,Money.

Cadbury

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

I've always wondered when a person buys a lifetime subscription on a new sub-based MMO, do they get upset when say, a year later the game goes F2P/ B2P and their "perks" become available to all?

When Lotro changed ,those with lifetime membership got (and still get I believe) monthly turbine points (think eso crowns) for free, the same that those that choose to pay the sub now get

They still do, yes. Though I can remember at the time some very upset players who felt the monthly stipend was too small and felt Turbine was forcing the cash shop on them.

Similar to this topic, some felt betrayed by the LOTRO devs for turning a sub-based game to a F2P one.

This topic brought back memories of those days

Jamini

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement#latest

The majority of people (and especially subs) are quite happy with the pricing scheme of the Expansion.

OP: you are in a vocal minority. Please would you all stop spamming threads on this?

UrQuan

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to buy this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

"We didn't know there was a difference between DLC and Expansion Packs. We got exactly what we paid for, every month, for years. Now there is this other unrelated thing, and we are very clearly angry about being charged for it, because it's all about the money. We'll be buying it anyway, but we wanted to come to the forums and make a stink about it because... I don't know why. Me and the 20 other people who are mad just like making a stink, but don't worry, we'll always word everything in such a way that it sounds like we are a large group making a valid complaint."

FTFY

Oh great, here we go again with the ridiculous strawman arguments...

I'm going to do you a favor since you people heard that once on reddit and never bothered to look it up.

STRAWMAN:an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Your "argument", repeated endlessly, is that you feel the expansion should be covered by the sub. You base this on nothing but confusion about the difference between DLC and an Expansion Pack, and since you're a bunch of sophists, you just keep trying to twist words and "promises" around to suit your point. But you don't actually have one. You're bent because you aren't getting your way.

I didn't "set up a strawman" I reworded the comment to make the meaning plain instead of continuing to let you hide it behind a bunch of ***, because like reddit, you're a handful of sophists trying to pretend you speak for some imaginary majority.

Oh really? My argument? Are you going to claim in this thread too that I'm saying it should be free for subscribers? Go and find me saying that. I dare you. When you don't find it anywhere I'll expect you to come back and apologize. Although I'm still waiting for that apology after you lied about the link that I gave you not showing ZOS saying that Orsinium was 20 hours of story content.

And let me give you a definition of a strawman argument:
STRAWMAN:an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Wait, but that's the same definition you gave! Exactly. Because you're intentionally misrepresenting the arguments that people are making because it's easier to defeat than the arguments they're really making. Go back and re-read your post. 90% of it is stuff that you made up out of whole cloth, and has nothing to do with the arguments people are actually making. It's a perfect example of a strawman.

You and the other complainers have been spewing so much *** so fast that I'm having trouble keeping up. Sorry if I mistook you for the other twenty people acting as if the sky is falling because you aren't getting your way. Since you're all saying the same thing, it really doesn't matter, does it?

Ah I see, why let facts get in the way right? When you can "re-word" things to completely lie about the arguments people are making, why bother paying attention to who is making those arguments anyway? Since you're just going to change the arguments to be what you want to argue against anyway, why not change the people too?

Remind me again what your point was since it's so different than the people who are mad their sub doesn't cover the xpac?

Get this through your head: I don't have a horse in this race. As a subscriber I don't care if I have to buy Morrowind or not. I've said multiple times in multiple threads that I'm buying the physical collectors edition one way or another. I'm just pointing out how dishonest you've been through this whole discussion. At this point I can't see any possible way anyone can take you seriously, no matter what side of the argument they're on or whether they're firmly sitting on the sidelines without being on either side, like I am.

ZOS_Bill

We've removed a series of posts that were threatening to derail the conversation. Please keep your disagreements civil as there is no need to mock or insult someone for their opinion.

out51d3r

What ZOS is doing here definitely feels bait and switchy. Cancelling your sub is a reasonable response. If you have a long term(ie 6 month/12 month) subscription that ends after the Morrowind release, you should probably be entitled to a refund for any months that you paid for that come after Morrowind's release. The first step to that though isn't posting on the forums, it's requesting the refund from ZOS. If they refuse, then posting here is a good idea.

If you subscribe month to month though, you don't have much to complain about. You have been given 5 months advance notice. Just go cancel your sub right now. You should only subscribe when you feel the benefits of subscription outweigh the cost of subscription. Don't post that you are going to do it, just do it. Cancelled subs outweigh angry forum posts.

Balamoor

Jamini wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317771/so-whats-the-general-feeling-on-the-morrowind-announcement#latest

The majority of people (and especially subs) are quite happy with the pricing scheme of the Expansion.

OP: you are in a vocal minority. Please would you all stop spamming threads on this?

He can't....got to make that 12.50 an hour somehow.
:-P

ol_BANK_lo

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to buy this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

Agreed. Here is my problem with it. We are supposedly getting a large territory with lots to do. So was Orsinium (a DLC); and also got 2 large public dungeons AND Maelstrom Arena. We are getting a new trial. We got Maw of Lorkhaj with Thieves Guild (a DLC). We are getting new PVP content. We got that with Imperial City (a DLC). We also got 2 new 4-man dungeons with Shadow of the Hist (a DLC). The only difference between now and all previous times is a new class. So, what happens when The Warden becomes a must-have class for end game PVE. It is now pay-to-play or pay-to-win, which they said ESO would not be.

So, for 2 years, all new trials, dungeons, questing and PVP content has been called a "DLC" and has been included with ESO Plus. As you mentioned, I pay $180 a year to get all of that, plus some other little perks. Now, that Plus membership means nothing, because ZOS re-termed their update to be an "Expansion" when it is exactly the same type of update as we have gotten before. I am a huge fan of the game. I have certainly been unhappy on many of occasions with the lag, the DC's, the RNG, etc., but have not gone to YouTube or forums to complain. But, this is ridiculous. If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck...it's a DLC in sheep's clothing. Let's be realistic.

ZOS, how do you quantify what is a DLC and what is an Expansion?

I am not sure what my plan is, but ZOS will lose a lot of people with this one, but won't care because the people that do pay for it will more than offset the lost revenue. It's a shame they have taken this approach.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Agreed. Here is my problem with it. We are supposedly getting a large territory with lots to do. So was Orsinium (a DLC). We are getting a new trial. We got Maw of Lorkhaj with Thieves Guild (a DLC). We are getting new PVP content. We got that with Imperial City (a DLC). We also got 2 new 4-man dungeons with Shadow of the Hist (a DLC).

Yes but with Morrowing you are getting ALL of that in one Patch, and a new Class; that's what makes it different.

You are getting in one Expac as much content as you got in FOUR DLCs and you still want it for free?

All The Best

danno8

Juhasow wrote: »

What makes me angry is the fact that they dont even try to discuss this with community. They just announced new DLC...oh sorry expansion and few minutes later started to sell pre orders to expansion that will come in june. Screw the community money is all what matters here.

But what makes me even more angry is the fact there is lot of crying about this right now but lets be honest most of the people will buy expansion anyway we all know that and Zenimax also knows that.

While I agree discussion is never a bad thing, discussing pricing to an mmo crowd will result in nothing but people wanting it to be free or very nearly free for whatever reason they have.

corrosivechains

"It's not a DLC, it's an Expansion. It's different, it's totally different. DLC goes dun dun dun dundundun dun. Expansion goes dun dun dun dundundun dun tss. That little change, it's totally different!"

https://youtu.be/6TLo4Z_LWu4

CombatPrayer

They will do what they want to do. My anger is done. My sub will end when it runs out. No more money for them from that. My craft bags are way full. A game is not an investment. It's a game. It's a microcosm at best.

People who are complaining because they are upset should be complaining if they want to let their feelings be known. Complain more by unsubbing and being done with the game or at least with the sub. Subs are now: year old or older dlc and a craft bag with some crown. Not much worth it once you get your craft bags quite full. After that sell or donate the excess to a guild you like or a player who needs it.

Paraflex

I sub and expect to get free DLC when it's released...when a major expansion comes out especially with PvP I'd buy that any day....who knows they may give sub users a special gift in the expansion not all the details are out

jedtb16_ESO

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Does being patronising about someones quote on an absurd post make you feel like a hypocrite kiddo?

Not really, but i do hope that it helps you, no seriously i do. I sometimes have a worse days myself but then the whole life experience allows me to withhold such behavior no matter if its face to face or in cozy anonymity of net.

Exactly what behaviour are you withholding? think on, and try to better articulate your next hypocritical comment Sunshine.

But to be on topic, paid expansions have been the norm in the MMO market for some time, the business model is not a new one, just new to ESO!
Exactly how much content, quality and value for money is something we wont really know till PTS?
I hope for the best .

That i can agree with, besides the fact that it wont go to PTS it will be tested in hush hush conditions by testers of the highest order of secrecy last i have heard. So... yeah, sub rosa all the way.

where did you hear that?

ah.... you didn't did you.... you just made it....