Let's clear the air on why people are angry

AlexTech0x · February 2017

To be honest? they said 30 hours of gameplay. That looks like a DLC, not a full expansion.

AhPook_Is_Here · February 2017

Cherryblossom wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to by this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

I understand where you're coming from, but.... I am a subscriber... and I have never interchanged the terms DLC and expansion... but that may be biased by the fact that I have previously played many MMO's...

I don't see how this is any change from current DLC, 30 hours game play is much the same as Orsinium.

I think an explanation as to why this is now considered an expansion is necessary.

Battle Grounds is independent of Morrowind, New class is also independent of Morrowind.

Morrowind is just a DLC as far as I can see.

Not if they sell DLC's for it later!

giff2830_ESO · February 2017

Just checked my billing history. Played beta, 79.99 initial investment for the game and about 420 in sub fees. I had pre-ordered Morrowind and just decided to cancel my sub which ends in 2 days anyway and contact support to cancel the pre-order. I play very casually, and this just doesn't feel right. Money isn't an issue. I'm not bitter, just not giving them 5 more months of a sub plus the cost of the expansion. Sure I could go buy all the other DLC with crowns....but maybe it's just time to move on to something else, as my 2 RL friends I play with have already decided and have cancelled their subs.
No you can't have my stuff!
FYI, Legion is an expansion, tons of content. The size of this is DLC, they just know Morrowind is a great selling point.

sadownik · February 2017

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

I subscribe to sky, I pay for sky sports....Then they come out with PPV events!

I own a car, I buy fuel and pay tolls etc.. Then I have to pay road tax!

I bought a game, I subscribe to that game, then I have to pay for expansions!

Welcome to capitalism kids!!

Patronizing people while using completely absurd example does make you feel like adult doesn't it?

Does being patronising about someones quote on an absurd post make you feel like a hypocrite kiddo?

Not really, but i do hope that it helps you, no seriously i do. I sometimes have a worse days myself but then the whole life experience allows me to withhold such behavior no matter if its face to face or in cozy anonymity of net.

Exactly what behaviour are you withholding? think on, and try to better articulate your next hypocritical comment Sunshine.

But to be on topic, paid expansions have been the norm in the MMO market for some time, the business model is not a new one, just new to ESO!
Exactly how much content, quality and value for money is something we wont really know till PTS?
I hope for the best .

That i can agree with, besides the fact that it wont go to PTS it will be tested in hush hush conditions by testers of the highest order of secrecy last i have heard. So... yeah, sub rosa all the way.

where did you hear that?

ah.... you didn't did you.... you just made it....

Gimmie a minute, sitting on the train and net jumps on adn off but ill try to find it, if you have some time to spare please search the thread about Morrowind must be longer on pts than month in title (might be a little differently worded, was surprised by this as well.

Astanphaeus · February 2017

It comes down to most subscribers justifying their subscription based on quarterly access to DLCs. We've already had Q4 of last year and Q1 of this year where that hasn't held up and now we are being told yet again that in Q2 we aren't getting this either. And at least 1 quarter of each upcoming year is not going to be a paid DLC that we get access to on top of Q3s being cheap baby DLCs.

The value of a subscription is entirely up for question now with the primary benefit falling squarely on the crafting bag and can this alone justify what we are paying?

ol_BANK_lo · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Agreed. Here is my problem with it. We are supposedly getting a large territory with lots to do. So was Orsinium (a DLC). We are getting a new trial. We got Maw of Lorkhaj with Thieves Guild (a DLC). We are getting new PVP content. We got that with Imperial City (a DLC). We also got 2 new 4-man dungeons with Shadow of the Hist (a DLC).

Yes but with Morrowing you are getting ALL of that in one Patch, and a new Class; that's what makes it different.

You are getting in one Expac as much content as you got in FOUR DLCs and you still want it for free?

All The Best

It's just my opinion. Putting parts of DLCs together and calling it an expansion makes no logical sense.

Tomg999 · February 2017

I am one of those who have subbed forever. I don't mind the $40, I am psyched to finally get more PVE content. But I totally get why many are displeased.

I do foresee many dropping the sub and buying the previous DLCs.
And then ZOS will look at the books and have to figure out yet another model....

Cherryblossom · February 2017

This would be the only way to show you value your sub as much as Zenimax

Zvorgin · February 2017

I have a sub for the craft bag and DLC's already in the game. This expansion I'm fine paying for, doesn't seem unreasonable. They have to make money to improve the game.

AzuraKin · February 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to buy this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

actually you are wrong. dlc and expansion are not interchangeable. the terms dlc and expansion have long been used in many games before eso. games that been out many many many years before eso. anyone who knows mmo history knows there is a difference when content is labeled dlc vs expansion. expansions are generally jumps in the actual story of the game, dlc's are additions to the current story. thus we see here, we have eso currently with 4 dlcs each take place during the time of the dragonbreak and subsequent turmoil of tamriel. the expansion is jumping to a whole new story in which we are dealing with issues in vvardenfell.

[Deleted User] · February 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

STEVIL · February 2017

Osteos wrote: »

Or... most forum posters aren't happy unless they are miserable. Or as my dad who served in the Navy would say bitching sailors are happy sailors.

I sub and pre ordered the game and have been playing since early access and I didn't expect nor am I upset an expansion isn't part of the eso+ dlc access.

Fact is not all subs feel cheated.

this ^^^ except i only got in at launch - no beta.

Evergnar · February 2017

adriant1978 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

IS ZoS going to call everything an expansion now ?

I have a feeling we'll never see an Orsinium sized DLC again.

I think it's safe to say we won't. We can expect DLC's to be a dungeon or two and new zones to be expansions.

FluffyReachWitch · February 2017

Good post, OP.

Like many others, I'm also wondering what the difference will be between DLC and a "Chapter". As it is, the Vvardenfell expansion isn't all that different from Wrothgar. The Orsinium DLC gave us a massive zone, a long main quest, two great public dungeons, tons of gorgeous scenery, huge delves with long and compelling quests, and the Maelstrom Arena. It was also given to subscribers for free (or the duration of their subscription, anyway). Are we never going to see a Wrothgar-sized DLC again?

Then there's the fact that previous DLCs have still come with base game updates for everyone. Unless I'm wrong, poison making was released with the Dark Brotherhood but not locked behind the DLC. There's no reason not to release the Warden as a base game update for all players. I can only wonder if the Warden was tied to the "Chapter" to help justify the extra price tag.

Overall, it's disappointing. But at least now I won't be shocked if the rest of Summerset turns out to be a "Chapter" too.

UrQuan · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Yes but with Morrowing

There should really be a filter on the forums that automatically replaces "Morrowing" with "Morrowind". I'll never understand why that's such a common typo, but whatever the reason is, I constantly fall victim to it (I actually accidentally typed it just now when I was trying to type the correct replacement for it, and I had to go back and correct it), and I see other people doing it so frequently too... And it's only going to happen more and more over the coming months.

Marto · February 2017

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Good post, OP.

Like many others, I'm also wondering what the difference will be between DLC and a "Chapter". As it is, the Vvardenfell expansion isn't all that different from Wrothgar. The Orsinium DLC gave us a massive zone, a long main quest, two great public dungeons, tons of gorgeous scenery, huge delves with long and compelling quests, and the Maelstrom Arena. It was also given to subscribers for free (or the duration of their subscription, anyway). Are we never going to see a Wrothgar-sized DLC again?

The Warden and Battlegrounds is the reason why Morrowind is a $40 Chapter, instead of a $30 DLC.

Morrowind, so far, promises something similar to Orsinium (A larger than average quest zone, 30h of content, an extra arena/trial with leaderboards.)
What makes Morrowind any different, is the Warden and the Battlegrounds, which bump the price to $40.

It would be nice if you could buy the Warden individually for, say, $15 in crowns. But hey, they have to make money somehow.

kyle.wilson · February 2017

Marto wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Good post, OP.

Like many others, I'm also wondering what the difference will be between DLC and a "Chapter". As it is, the Vvardenfell expansion isn't all that different from Wrothgar. The Orsinium DLC gave us a massive zone, a long main quest, two great public dungeons, tons of gorgeous scenery, huge delves with long and compelling quests, and the Maelstrom Arena. It was also given to subscribers for free (or the duration of their subscription, anyway). Are we never going to see a Wrothgar-sized DLC again?

The Warden and Battlegrounds is the reason why Morrowind is a $40 Chapter, instead of a $30 DLC.

Morrowind, so far, promises something similar to Orsinium (A larger than average quest zone, 30h of content, an extra arena/trial with leaderboards.)
What makes Morrowind any different, is the Warden and the Battlegrounds, which bump the price to $40.

It would be nice if you could buy the Warden individually for, say, $15 in crowns. But hey, they have to make money somehow.

They already are getting $180/year from eso+ members, is this not money?
But, I hope the content is more interesting like wrothgar. and not the boring grind like db and thieves guild. The leveling in thieves and db were the generic go and fetch this type missions.

FluffyReachWitch · February 2017

Marto wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Good post, OP.

Like many others, I'm also wondering what the difference will be between DLC and a "Chapter". As it is, the Vvardenfell expansion isn't all that different from Wrothgar. The Orsinium DLC gave us a massive zone, a long main quest, two great public dungeons, tons of gorgeous scenery, huge delves with long and compelling quests, and the Maelstrom Arena. It was also given to subscribers for free (or the duration of their subscription, anyway). Are we never going to see a Wrothgar-sized DLC again?

The Warden and Battlegrounds is the reason why Morrowind is a $40 Chapter, instead of a $30 DLC.

Morrowind, so far, promises something similar to Orsinium (A larger than average quest zone, 30h of content, an extra arena/trial with leaderboards.)
What makes Morrowind any different, is the Warden and the Battlegrounds, which bump the price to $40.

It would be nice if you could buy the Warden individually for, say, $15 in crowns. But hey, they have to make money somehow.

Well, yes. As I said in the rest of my post, I suspect that part of the price comes from a deliberate choice to put the Warden in Morrowind and not include it as a base game patch, which would have been in line with the rest of the updates they released previously.

Imagine if instead of the free Justice update (which came before TG), we weren't able to pickpocket, crack lockboxes, or take items from the world unless we purchased the Thieves Guild DLC.

Imagine if we were required to purchase the Dark Brotherhood expansion to make poison or lock items. These things were part of the base game patch for the long awaited Dark Brotherhood.

There is no reason to tie the Warden to the purchase of Morrowind. It was part of the game to begin with, it was removed, and it could have easily been included in a base game patch. Sticking the Warden behind Morrowind is a means to justify calling it a Chapter and not a DLC, which ties back into the changing model, and the frustration and disappointment.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · February 2017

The only thing that upsets me is it is only 30 hrs. of game play. However, I am buying it because it looks amazing.

ol_BANK_lo · February 2017

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Good post, OP.

Like many others, I'm also wondering what the difference will be between DLC and a "Chapter". As it is, the Vvardenfell expansion isn't all that different from Wrothgar. The Orsinium DLC gave us a massive zone, a long main quest, two great public dungeons, tons of gorgeous scenery, huge delves with long and compelling quests, and the Maelstrom Arena. It was also given to subscribers for free (or the duration of their subscription, anyway). Are we never going to see a Wrothgar-sized DLC again?

The Warden and Battlegrounds is the reason why Morrowind is a $40 Chapter, instead of a $30 DLC.

Morrowind, so far, promises something similar to Orsinium (A larger than average quest zone, 30h of content, an extra arena/trial with leaderboards.)
What makes Morrowind any different, is the Warden and the Battlegrounds, which bump the price to $40.

It would be nice if you could buy the Warden individually for, say, $15 in crowns. But hey, they have to make money somehow.

Well, yes. As I said in the rest of my post, I suspect that part of the price comes from a deliberate choice to put the Warden in Morrowind and not include it as a base game patch, which would have been in line with the rest of the updates they released previously.

Imagine if instead of the free Justice update (which came before TG), we weren't able to pickpocket, crack lockboxes, or take items from the world unless we purchased the Thieves Guild DLC.

Imagine if we were required to purchase the Dark Brotherhood expansion to make poison or lock items. These things were part of the base game patch for the long awaited Dark Brotherhood.

There is no reason to tie the Warden to the purchase of Morrowind. It was part of the game to begin with, it was removed, and it could have easily been included in a base game patch. Sticking the Warden behind Morrowind is a means to justify calling it a Chapter and not a DLC, which is part of the frustration and disappointment.

Good point. I actually forgot that the Warden was part of the base game back in beta. Everything they are including in Morrowind is stuff that have either been base game or DLCs - class, trial, PVP, territories with quest gameplay (Orsinium, Thieves Guild, Shadow of the Hist, Imperial City). A class should not be locked behind a paywall, and the rest is just DLC-type updates. I don't see the justification, and as a ESO Plus member, it just pisses me off. I already see less and less need for Plus, and many of the benefits are getting lost on me now later in the game.

AzuraKin · February 2017

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

The only thing that upsets me is it is only 30 hrs. of game play. However, I am buying it because it looks amazing.

30 hours of game play multiplied by 8-12. equals 240-360 hours of play. and that just the questing.

Cherryblossom · February 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I see a lot of strawman arguments being made. Nobody seems to understand why some people are angry.

People don't care about the price of the DLC. $40 is not a lot of money.

People are angry because ZOS has changed their revenue model AGAIN, leaving subscribers out to dry. The most loyal fans of the game feel betrayed because they felt they were paying for something, at a rate of $180 a year, that they will not receive now.

Had ZOS been clear from the start on what constitutes a DLC and what constitutes an expansion (two interchangeable terms), this whole mess could have been avoided. People who subbed for access to all future content, might not have subbed if they knew expansions would not be included in that rate.

These are players who have contributed many times the value of the DLC through their subscription, yet they are not getting any recognition for that now.

The worst part is that these players cannot even use the crowns they have accumulated to buy this latest expansion. These are real dollars that were paid to ZOS.

This is why some people are angry.

actually you are wrong. dlc and expansion are not interchangeable. the terms dlc and expansion have long been used in many games before eso. games that been out many many many years before eso. anyone who knows mmo history knows there is a difference when content is labeled dlc vs expansion. expansions are generally jumps in the actual story of the game, dlc's are additions to the current story. thus we see here, we have eso currently with 4 dlcs each take place during the time of the dragonbreak and subsequent turmoil of tamriel. the expansion is jumping to a whole new story in which we are dealing with issues in vvardenfell.

I think that is subjective, was Orsinium not a different story. Was Hew's bane not a different story.

What constitutes an expansion we will not know until Morrowind is released to be honest, however if it is essentially no different to Orsinium in size and scope then I think you will have to agree it's not an expansion but just renaming of a DLC.

Cherryblossom · February 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

The only thing that upsets me is it is only 30 hrs. of game play. However, I am buying it because it looks amazing.

30 hours of game play multiplied by 8-12. equals 240-360 hours of play. and that just the questing.

That's also just nonsense

Stanelis · February 2017

My biggest issue with the morrowind "expansion" is that it looks more like a glorified DLC than a fully fledged "expansion" as in other MMO. Especially when they actually plan to charge for DLC dungeon after morrowind's release.

Xsorus · February 2017

I'm still confused why you guys are whining that they are releasing what is obviously an expansion pack.

Expansion packs = growth usually and that's good

AnviOfVai · February 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm still confused why you guys are whining that they are releasing what is obviously an expansion pack.

Expansion packs = growth usually and that's good

Myrrik · February 2017

I think my big concern is the fact that they have stated the new model for releasing content is one new chapter every year.

So... does this mean each year we will be forking out $40+ for a new chapter?

You can make your own mind up as to how much value you think Morrowind will have to you.
But I doubt they will be releasing a new class every year, and are there enough areas that have the same nostalgic impact that Morrowind does?
So what is going to justify that Price tag every year for new "Chapters" (IMO not 30 hours of gameplay)

Stormahawk · February 2017

Maybe I am a bit spoiled when it comes to expansions in other games. World of Warcraft expansions, for instance, add whole new continents (not just one zone), feature significant gameplay changes or improvements (like how they added catching critters in the wild, leveling them, and making them fight like Pokemon). All for a nice $40 to $60 price tag.

What does Morrowind "expansion" add? A new class that was made in 2014, a new zone that was being worked on as early as 2014, a couple dungeons and maybe a trial. Had they added things like Clockwork City (as opposed to saving it for a later expansion/DLC as they said during Tuesday's announcement), Murkmire, and Spiral Skein, then yeah, that would be more like an expansion and worthy of paying a standalone game price since that would be a lot of content. But just Vvardenfell feels more like a glorified DLC. Most of the zone is the big Red Mountain, so you can't even explore the whole area.

I feel like they broke their promise by saying ESO Plus subscribers will get access to DLCs. I know my forum post will not change what they announced now, but I hope such posts will show them how the community feels about this as a whole.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2017

corrosivechains wrote: »

"It's not a DLC, it's an Expansion. It's different, it's totally different. DLC goes dun dun dun dundundun dun. Expansion goes dun dun dun dundundun dun tss. That little change, it's totally different!"

https://youtu.be/6TLo4Z_LWu4

I think Rob Van winkle should be the game director.

bowmanz607 · February 2017

The key is not the change in name from dlc to expansion or chapters. The key is that it is not offered in the crown store. The terms of subs is all dlc in crown store

Further people don't only sub for dlc. In fact, if you only sub for dlc and only expect 4 per year, you are losing money by subscribing. It is the dlc combined with the other aspects such as crafting bags and so on. Plus, when the subs started we didn't even know how often they would release dlc. At the time is was unknown.