Some of my thoughts...

There are sets and skills that specifically buff magicka or stamina, but not both, so one of the drives that leaves one class out or the other is what buff sets groups are running.

For example, worm cult reduces magicka cost, but does not help Stamina, Sunderflame reduces physical resistance, but not spell, for magicka there is "Minor Magicka Steal", but no "Minor Stamina Steal", the Orbs synergy buffs Magicka resources, but not Stamina, Repentance gives stamina but not magicka... etc. At least Luminous Shards gives both for whomever takes that morph...

It makes it much easier if a group settles on Magicka only because they only have to run sets and skills that buff Magicka along with the a fore mentioned shields/fake health that Alkosh posted about.

Giving stamina ground AoE and shields will help, but if Stamina is found to do more damage and have utility than Magicka then groups will go the other way and leave Magicka builds in the cold, which gives the advantage of only having to run one set of skills and buff sets.

The problem is there will always be a best set up and whatever is perceived as "not the best" gets left out.

To be honest there is not a real solution here due to how things are set up in general in the game. I don't think there will ever be a time when a hybrid group or hybrid build is the most effective.

I've made the suggestion before, (I don't think it will ever get serious consideration because how much it will change in the game) and that is to make one damaging resource (Magicka) and one defensive resource (Stamina) and make all skills cost Magicka and save stamina for Block, Roll, Bash, and stealth. Only if they do this (no easy feat because sets and skills and passives will need all kinds of updates) then we will be able to stop this "us vs them" discussion.

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of my thoughts...

There are sets and skills that specifically buff magicka or stamina, but not both, so one of the drives that leaves one class out or the other is what buff sets groups are running.

For example, worm cult reduces magicka cost, but does not help Stamina, Sunderflame reduces physical resistance, but not spell, for magicka there is "Minor Magicka Steal", but no "Minor Stamina Steal", the Orbs synergy buffs Magicka resources, but not Stamina, Repentance gives stamina but not magicka... etc. At least Luminous Shards gives both for whomever takes that morph...

It makes it much easier if a group settles on Magicka only because they only have to run sets and skills that buff Magicka along with the a fore mentioned shields/fake health that Alkosh posted about.

Giving stamina ground AoE and shields will help, but if Stamina is found to do more damage and have utility than Magicka then groups will go the other way and leave Magicka builds in the cold, which gives the advantage of only having to run one set of skills and buff sets.

The problem is there will always be a best set up and whatever is perceived as "not the best" gets left out.

To be honest there is not a real solution here due to how things are set up in general in the game. I don't think there will ever be a time when a hybrid group or hybrid build is the most effective.

I've made the suggestion before, (I don't think it will ever get serious consideration because how much it will change in the game) and that is to make one damaging resource (Magicka) and one defensive resource (Stamina) and make all skills cost Magicka and save stamina for Block, Roll, Bash, and stealth. Only if they do this (no easy feat because sets and skills and passives will need all kinds of updates) then we will be able to stop this "us vs them" discussion.

while all ideas are welcomed i think this would put the game in a very bad state. it would make the game very boring. there will never be hybrid builds, its just not how the game was designed. the reason magicka is brought to trials is not because of buffing easier its the damage output and survivability. stamina just doesnt offer enough AOE and survivability to be viable it is as SIMPLE as that. we dont need to rewrite the book here we just need 1 good AOE ability to complement endless hail and bone shield needs to be made viable. i dont understand why they cant just make bone shield good for a PVE standpoint and just nerf it through battle spirit for pvp. not sure if its that simple to pull out but it seems simple to me.

Make bone shield viable
make other morph of steel tornado an initial hit damage and give it a good bleed DoT and stamina is fixed.

Shadzilla wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of my thoughts...

There are sets and skills that specifically buff magicka or stamina, but not both, so one of the drives that leaves one class out or the other is what buff sets groups are running.

For example, worm cult reduces magicka cost, but does not help Stamina, Sunderflame reduces physical resistance, but not spell, for magicka there is "Minor Magicka Steal", but no "Minor Stamina Steal", the Orbs synergy buffs Magicka resources, but not Stamina, Repentance gives stamina but not magicka... etc. At least Luminous Shards gives both for whomever takes that morph...

It makes it much easier if a group settles on Magicka only because they only have to run sets and skills that buff Magicka along with the a fore mentioned shields/fake health that Alkosh posted about.

Giving stamina ground AoE and shields will help, but if Stamina is found to do more damage and have utility than Magicka then groups will go the other way and leave Magicka builds in the cold, which gives the advantage of only having to run one set of skills and buff sets.

The problem is there will always be a best set up and whatever is perceived as "not the best" gets left out.

To be honest there is not a real solution here due to how things are set up in general in the game. I don't think there will ever be a time when a hybrid group or hybrid build is the most effective.

I've made the suggestion before, (I don't think it will ever get serious consideration because how much it will change in the game) and that is to make one damaging resource (Magicka) and one defensive resource (Stamina) and make all skills cost Magicka and save stamina for Block, Roll, Bash, and stealth. Only if they do this (no easy feat because sets and skills and passives will need all kinds of updates) then we will be able to stop this "us vs them" discussion.

To start off, id like to say that will never happen. I don't want to sound negative, but it won't. The reason why stamina is "left out" from trials is not because magicka is a bit better. The reason is because magicka users are miles ahead in every department. The only thing that is relatively close is single target dps, which is irrelevant because 95% of the game is aoe. AOE increase and giving stamina a shield are the ONLY CHANGES possible to get stamina back into end game pve. If stamina was anywhere near the ballpark of aoe/survivability/utility that magicka is in, people wouldn't be unable to participate in top level score runs. You should realize the importance of AOE and shields at the top tier level.

You kind of missed my point in that the equation is a lot more complicated than just giving Stamina builds a shield and a ground AOE.

If Stamina becomes the most viable then groups will pack in as many Stamina builds as they can and Magicka will just get the Ranged and Healer slots (kind of like before the VMA weapon nerf).

Groups are going to tend to specialize on what build they will support, and set buff gear and buff skills accordingly. Supporting both equally is inefficient.

Alternatively to making one damaging resource ZoS could also make all buffs and debuff benefit Magicka and Stamina/Spell and Physical equally like they did with Alkosh. Which is an ironic example of where a DPS set became a tank set, but that's another discussion... If Worm reduced cost for Stamina and Magicka, All things that give Minor Magickasteal also give Minor Stamina steal, Night Mothers Gaze also reduces Spell resistance, etc then we could see more of a situation where competitive groups don't mind carrying a mix of builds.

Sure adding a shield and another cleave will help Stamina builds, but where will be the incentive to take them if you can specialize your buffs and debuffs for one kind of build and when that Magicka build is just a good and has a larger array of support abilities?

There will always be this seesaw of which is the best and which is not the best, unless something is fundamentally changed about the game. The best strategy I have come up with is to level at least 2 builds of every class and just use the one that is most viable for a given patch.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel just said on ESO Live that the only metric they looked at in this "balance" sweep was single target dps. So there's your answer.

There's just a startling lack of critical thinking, exacerbated by the extreme time periods between when we see substantial adjustments made to classes and skills. So for the only metric they looked at this time, they saw no problem. Single target DPS just about everything is on par more or less. So 5 months from now maybe they'll get around to looking at sustain as their only metric of concern. Then 5 months after that they'll maybe look at cleave damage. (And when they look at sustain and cleave damage they will nerf to the ground something impacting single target dps, thus causing more problems).

#facepalm

Than @ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel should say asap when they will look at aoe and so on....pretty sure hope is lost

Shadzilla wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel just said on ESO Live that the only metric they looked at in this "balance" sweep was single target dps. So there's your answer.

There's just a startling lack of critical thinking, exacerbated by the extreme time periods between when we see substantial adjustments made to classes and skills. So for the only metric they looked at this time, they saw no problem. Single target DPS just about everything is on par more or less. So 5 months from now maybe they'll get around to looking at sustain as their only metric of concern. Then 5 months after that they'll maybe look at cleave damage. (And when they look at sustain and cleave damage they will nerf to the ground something impacting single target dps, thus causing more problems).

#facepalm

Good post, but a very sad reality. The only way they will change things is if we get as many people as possible to come onto the forums.

Yeah, we need to QQ more or they will never listen.

Given what was said during the ESO live yesterday, I would wager a guess that this DLC the balance will only pertain to single target dps, and from what I have seen, if you factor in Maelstrom weapons then all classes/builds are about the same for max potential (no raid buffs included). (Master weapons in many cases need a serious buff to be competitive.)

Next DLC will likely focus on something else, either Sustain, Survivability, AoE Damage, or Cleave Damage. At this point we can determine that stam dps are rarely if ever are going to be needed in a trial this DLC, it just makes the whole run harder. (stamblade main makes me sad) What we as players should probably do is determine which we feel is most important to start balancing out, and ask ZoS to focus on that. personally, I feel cleave damage would be the best, but I am no expert.

Ruinhorn wrote: »

zerosingularity wrote: »

Given what was said during the ESO live yesterday, I would wager a guess that this DLC the balance will only pertain to single target dps, and from what I have seen, if you factor in Maelstrom weapons then all classes/builds are about the same for max potential (no raid buffs included). (Master weapons in many cases need a serious buff to be competitive.)

Next DLC will likely focus on something else, either Sustain, Survivability, AoE Damage, or Cleave Damage. At this point we can determine that stam dps are rarely if ever are going to be needed in a trial this DLC, it just makes the whole run harder. (stamblade main makes me sad) What we as players should probably do is determine which we feel is most important to start balancing out, and ask ZoS to focus on that. personally, I feel cleave damage would be the best, but I am no expert.

Alcast decribed everything perfectly: there're several points in which we can compair stam and magicka DDs. Stam DDs are worse for now in every point.
The problem is that PvP and PvE content is absolutely different. It's just like different games. In PvP you rely on your skills, your reaction and always have unpredictable situations you have to play in.
In PvE you have solid mechanics (the best example is vMA) and all you need is to learn this mecanics. Your small 12 persons group should work as a one mechanism, supporting and helping to each other. Your enemy is computer, not another person who thinks the same way as you.
And ZOS trying to balace those two thing which is impossible to do in the way they're doing it.
When you balance PvP, then PvE suffers. When you balance PvE then PvP are crying about OP players, OP sets and so on. As PvP players don't care at all about PvE, as PvE players don't care about PvP.

I'm ready for everything, just give me an opportunity to be as good and ANY other class. Even if it would be harder than for them. What we have now is that stam DDs have NO opportunity to be such as good as magicka, moreover, they don't have anything to offer for end-game trials content.

This!


It is stupid from Zos just to look at ST damage and equal each classes only there. You can't balance a game just in one direction and dont look into aoe/cleave dmg and survivability.

But the problem is, as log as there are player who buy fance mounts and such things for 10 bucks that only need small development ressources ...the core problem will never change. That is the reason why they cant look at all balance aspects of the game in one "balance" update. And thats the reason why we will stick with elders robes the next 3 months until they finaly decide to look at cleave/aoe dmg or survivability.


ZOS wake up not the E-RP guys who buy fance *** and than never again keep you alive ...

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast, didn't you just achieve 54K single target on Rakkat in hard mode vMOL on a stamina DK?

As of today, that is probably the highest single target DPS we have seen in both stamina and magicka. The highest i am aware of for magicka is at 44K with a magicka templar (thank you jesus beam).

Even if you considered all the nerfs to Horn, rearming trap etc how much do you think it will effect the stamina DK? 5K? 8K? even 10K?

Let's say 10K dps loss next update, that is still on the same level as the mTemplar of today. Which do not forget, will also be overall nerfed due to non crit proc sets, beam nerf, trap nerf (yes we use trap as well on magicka builds), TBS change and so on.

So if you think of it, the stamina builds will still be running stronger than magicka builds.

Now i DO agree with you regarding stamina, on how they lack shields, must run vMSA weapons, must have a certain rotation (regardless of class) and so forth. But consider the optional sets you have for PvP and the burst, IMO you do not need shields since you have access to shuffle, dodge more often than magicka, have two healing sorcer (vigor and rally) and one must not fall into PvP meta to run proc sets to be effective where magicka have nothing compared to non momster set proc set like stamina (widormaker, viper, morkulden and so on).

PvE, sadly it is the meta to force all stamina builds to run vMSA weapons, forced rotation and only one or two class abilities slotted . But remember, this update is "lowering the ceiling" for DPS, so both magicka and stamina will get hit in PvE significantly.

But generally speaking, i think once update 13 goes live, stamina will still be able to push ahead than magicka in terms of dps, especially with a certain set-up (such as two fanged snake).

Sure, you have slightly higher Single Target DPS... but that does not matter if you only do half the AoE dps... and most time spent is on trash...

Like I felt completely useless up to last boss xD WITH caltrops lol

+ chances to die and *** up a no death run is so much higher on stamina.

You know what might be nice? Since vMA daggers/axes add ~ 3k or more dps to a good rotation(no raid buffs included), what if they actually made vDSA weapons do the same, or something similar. Imagine being able to use Rending Slashes as a good dps skill, and being able to use class skills for solid dps instead of being shoehorned into flurry empower spam.

Just something to think about for the next DLC. Tired of only a few of these hard to get items being good.

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast, didn't you just achieve 54K single target on Rakkat in hard mode vMOL on a stamina DK?

As of today, that is probably the highest single target DPS we have seen in both stamina and magicka. The highest i am aware of for magicka is at 44K with a magicka templar (thank you jesus beam).

Even if you considered all the nerfs to Horn, rearming trap etc how much do you think it will effect the stamina DK? 5K? 8K? even 10K?

Let's say 10K dps loss next update, that is still on the same level as the mTemplar of today. Which do not forget, will also be overall nerfed due to non crit proc sets, beam nerf, trap nerf (yes we use trap as well on magicka builds), TBS change and so on.

So if you think of it, the stamina builds will still be running stronger than magicka builds.

Now i DO agree with you regarding stamina, on how they lack shields, must run vMSA weapons, must have a certain rotation (regardless of class) and so forth. But consider the optional sets you have for PvP and the burst, IMO you do not need shields since you have access to shuffle, dodge more often than magicka, have two healing sorcer (vigor and rally) and one must not fall into PvP meta to run proc sets to be effective where magicka have nothing compared to non momster set proc set like stamina (widormaker, viper, morkulden and so on).

PvE, sadly it is the meta to force all stamina builds to run vMSA weapons, forced rotation and only one or two class abilities slotted . But remember, this update is "lowering the ceiling" for DPS, so both magicka and stamina will get hit in PvE significantly.

But generally speaking, i think once update 13 goes live, stamina will still be able to push ahead than magicka in terms of dps, especially with a certain set-up (such as two fanged snake).

Magicka Templars are pulling around 56k on Rakkhat btw. Sorcs aren't too far behind with over 50k.

Post combat metrics showing single target please, it is so easy to get 50K+ overall dps including the Hulk AND assasins in HARD MODE where you have them running outside as well.

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast, didn't you just achieve 54K single target on Rakkat in hard mode vMOL on a stamina DK?

As of today, that is probably the highest single target DPS we have seen in both stamina and magicka. The highest i am aware of for magicka is at 44K with a magicka templar (thank you jesus beam).

Even if you considered all the nerfs to Horn, rearming trap etc how much do you think it will effect the stamina DK? 5K? 8K? even 10K?

Let's say 10K dps loss next update, that is still on the same level as the mTemplar of today. Which do not forget, will also be overall nerfed due to non crit proc sets, beam nerf, trap nerf (yes we use trap as well on magicka builds), TBS change and so on.

So if you think of it, the stamina builds will still be running stronger than magicka builds.

Now i DO agree with you regarding stamina, on how they lack shields, must run vMSA weapons, must have a certain rotation (regardless of class) and so forth. But consider the optional sets you have for PvP and the burst, IMO you do not need shields since you have access to shuffle, dodge more often than magicka, have two healing sorcer (vigor and rally) and one must not fall into PvP meta to run proc sets to be effective where magicka have nothing compared to non momster set proc set like stamina (widormaker, viper, morkulden and so on).

PvE, sadly it is the meta to force all stamina builds to run vMSA weapons, forced rotation and only one or two class abilities slotted . But remember, this update is "lowering the ceiling" for DPS, so both magicka and stamina will get hit in PvE significantly.

But generally speaking, i think once update 13 goes live, stamina will still be able to push ahead than magicka in terms of dps, especially with a certain set-up (such as two fanged snake).

Sure, you have slightly higher Single Target DPS... but that does not matter if you only do half the AoE dps... and most time spent is on trash...

Like I felt completely useless up to last boss xD WITH caltrops lol

+ chances to die and *** up a no death run is so much higher on stamina.

So you want Stamina builds to get high AOE as well as the highest single target? Dying more often on stamina is what happens when you play higher risk and rewarded with much higher dps single target than magicka builds.

You also need to realize you are speaking about 1 instance, an instance that very very few player actually do sucessfully. You need to take a look at the burst in pvp, vMSA, vDSA, vDungeons and so on.

Stamina is in a very good place right now, you wish to add more aoe in the mix and survivability....that is just going to unbalance the game even more than it already is, even with the next update.

You claim to feel useless on last boss with caltrops, well that is why you are in a 12 player GROUP, where your advantage as stamina is higher single than aoe, the more suited aoe classes/builds can do what they do best to balance the whole group. Otherwise we will end up with all DDs just single targetting the boss and everying dying passively in the AOEs and nuking boss and skipping mechanics.

It is very clear that Zenimax does not wish that to happen, especially to the changes to overcharger, trolls, flamshooters and all other elites we face in trails. Sure you can still nuke bosses, but how many guilds are sucessfully doing that? 5%? 10%? not much.

This for example:

Stamina:
ST: 45k dps
AoE: 65k

Magicka
ST: 42k dps
AoE: 130k dps

70% of the time spent in a trial is on trash
where exactly is the balance there?

I do understand what you mean tho...but having like 3-6k extra ST on stamina does not make up for the insane AOE dps + survival magicka has.

At least not in my opinion

Come on Alcast, link that screenshot of Rakkat Hm at 54K single target, that is hardly a 45K single as you claim there, hell you even linked combat metrics in the video description, how is that 45K as you claim above?

And quote me saying "but having like 3-6k extra ST..." i never said that, you did.

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast, didn't you just achieve 54K single target on Rakkat in hard mode vMOL on a stamina DK?

As of today, that is probably the highest single target DPS we have seen in both stamina and magicka. The highest i am aware of for magicka is at 44K with a magicka templar (thank you jesus beam).

Even if you considered all the nerfs to Horn, rearming trap etc how much do you think it will effect the stamina DK? 5K? 8K? even 10K?

Let's say 10K dps loss next update, that is still on the same level as the mTemplar of today. Which do not forget, will also be overall nerfed due to non crit proc sets, beam nerf, trap nerf (yes we use trap as well on magicka builds), TBS change and so on.

So if you think of it, the stamina builds will still be running stronger than magicka builds.

Now i DO agree with you regarding stamina, on how they lack shields, must run vMSA weapons, must have a certain rotation (regardless of class) and so forth. But consider the optional sets you have for PvP and the burst, IMO you do not need shields since you have access to shuffle, dodge more often than magicka, have two healing sorcer (vigor and rally) and one must not fall into PvP meta to run proc sets to be effective where magicka have nothing compared to non momster set proc set like stamina (widormaker, viper, morkulden and so on).

PvE, sadly it is the meta to force all stamina builds to run vMSA weapons, forced rotation and only one or two class abilities slotted . But remember, this update is "lowering the ceiling" for DPS, so both magicka and stamina will get hit in PvE significantly.

But generally speaking, i think once update 13 goes live, stamina will still be able to push ahead than magicka in terms of dps, especially with a certain set-up (such as two fanged snake).

Sure, you have slightly higher Single Target DPS... but that does not matter if you only do half the AoE dps... and most time spent is on trash...

Like I felt completely useless up to last boss xD WITH caltrops lol

+ chances to die and *** up a no death run is so much higher on stamina.

So you want Stamina builds to get high AOE as well as the highest single target? Dying more often on stamina is what happens when you play higher risk and rewarded with much higher dps single target than magicka builds.

You also need to realize you are speaking about 1 instance, an instance that very very few player actually do sucessfully. You need to take a look at the burst in pvp, vMSA, vDSA, vDungeons and so on.

Stamina is in a very good place right now, you wish to add more aoe in the mix and survivability....that is just going to unbalance the game even more than it already is, even with the next update.

You claim to feel useless on last boss with caltrops, well that is why you are in a 12 player GROUP, where your advantage as stamina is higher single than aoe, the more suited aoe classes/builds can do what they do best to balance the whole group. Otherwise we will end up with all DDs just single targetting the boss and everying dying passively in the AOEs and nuking boss and skipping mechanics.

It is very clear that Zenimax does not wish that to happen, especially to the changes to overcharger, trolls, flamshooters and all other elites we face in trails. Sure you can still nuke bosses, but how many guilds are sucessfully doing that? 5%? 10%? not much.

You missing the point.

True fact the ST stamina bonus dmg comes not really from the stam power alone . There are the vMSA weapons. For a split second forget they exist. Now magika and stamina are nearly even in ST dps.

Now add them again. ST is higher yes, is the ST so much higher than magikas aoe over stam ? NO

Next thing i have probably run in so many mmorps at top lvl of play in my life that i can say that you clearly have not understand what high risk gameplay means. At the moment you have NO reward for being a stam melee character (stam range is non existent). Because the magika dudes can do better aoe damage and survive all the crazy damage income.

The thing is stam dont need surv. and aoe/cleave damage. Give tham the same aoe, a small ST advantage and we are all happy. This way the raid lead can choose if they want to do content faster with high risk gameplay and take more stamina classes , or go a more lets say save way to put more magika dudes in. That is balance. So both have an advantage and disadvantage.

And 1 more good aoe ability will not break pvp (a better deadly cloak) but help pve so much

Thanks and have a nice day all!

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast, didn't you just achieve 54K single target on Rakkat in hard mode vMOL on a stamina DK?

As of today, that is probably the highest single target DPS we have seen in both stamina and magicka. The highest i am aware of for magicka is at 44K with a magicka templar (thank you jesus beam).

Even if you considered all the nerfs to Horn, rearming trap etc how much do you think it will effect the stamina DK? 5K? 8K? even 10K?

Let's say 10K dps loss next update, that is still on the same level as the mTemplar of today. Which do not forget, will also be overall nerfed due to non crit proc sets, beam nerf, trap nerf (yes we use trap as well on magicka builds), TBS change and so on.

So if you think of it, the stamina builds will still be running stronger than magicka builds.

Now i DO agree with you regarding stamina, on how they lack shields, must run vMSA weapons, must have a certain rotation (regardless of class) and so forth. But consider the optional sets you have for PvP and the burst, IMO you do not need shields since you have access to shuffle, dodge more often than magicka, have two healing sorcer (vigor and rally) and one must not fall into PvP meta to run proc sets to be effective where magicka have nothing compared to non momster set proc set like stamina (widormaker, viper, morkulden and so on).

PvE, sadly it is the meta to force all stamina builds to run vMSA weapons, forced rotation and only one or two class abilities slotted . But remember, this update is "lowering the ceiling" for DPS, so both magicka and stamina will get hit in PvE significantly.

But generally speaking, i think once update 13 goes live, stamina will still be able to push ahead than magicka in terms of dps, especially with a certain set-up (such as two fanged snake).

Sure, you have slightly higher Single Target DPS... but that does not matter if you only do half the AoE dps... and most time spent is on trash...

Like I felt completely useless up to last boss xD WITH caltrops lol

+ chances to die and *** up a no death run is so much higher on stamina.

So you want Stamina builds to get high AOE as well as the highest single target? Dying more often on stamina is what happens when you play higher risk and rewarded with much higher dps single target than magicka builds.

You also need to realize you are speaking about 1 instance, an instance that very very few player actually do sucessfully. You need to take a look at the burst in pvp, vMSA, vDSA, vDungeons and so on.

Stamina is in a very good place right now, you wish to add more aoe in the mix and survivability....that is just going to unbalance the game even more than it already is, even with the next update.

You claim to feel useless on last boss with caltrops, well that is why you are in a 12 player GROUP, where your advantage as stamina is higher single than aoe, the more suited aoe classes/builds can do what they do best to balance the whole group. Otherwise we will end up with all DDs just single targetting the boss and everying dying passively in the AOEs and nuking boss and skipping mechanics.

It is very clear that Zenimax does not wish that to happen, especially to the changes to overcharger, trolls, flamshooters and all other elites we face in trails. Sure you can still nuke bosses, but how many guilds are sucessfully doing that? 5%? 10%? not much.

This for example:

Stamina:
ST: 45k dps
AoE: 65k

Magicka
ST: 42k dps
AoE: 130k dps

70% of the time spent in a trial is on trash
where exactly is the balance there?

I do understand what you mean tho...but having like 3-6k extra ST on stamina does not make up for the insane AOE dps + survival magicka has.

At least not in my opinion

Come on Alcast, link that screenshot of Rakkat Hm at 54K single target, that is hardly a 45K single as you claim there, hell you even linked combat metrics in the video description, how is that 45K as you claim above?

And quote me saying "but having like 3-6k extra ST..." i never said that, you did.

I am not talking about a specific fight here.

On that rakkhat fight tho...Our Mag DK reaches 49k ST on rakkhat with 59k overall dps.

If that is true, i have yet to see those numbers backed up, and as i stated, if you re-read what i said, then apply that to vDSA, vMSA (where stam classes always outperform magicka builds), other trails (same thing) and PvP (stam favoured from proc sets, charge, self heals, dodge etc).

But i see that im bringing up the same points over and over.

Nefaras wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast, didn't you just achieve 54K single target on Rakkat in hard mode vMOL on a stamina DK?

As of today, that is probably the highest single target DPS we have seen in both stamina and magicka. The highest i am aware of for magicka is at 44K with a magicka templar (thank you jesus beam).

Even if you considered all the nerfs to Horn, rearming trap etc how much do you think it will effect the stamina DK? 5K? 8K? even 10K?

Let's say 10K dps loss next update, that is still on the same level as the mTemplar of today. Which do not forget, will also be overall nerfed due to non crit proc sets, beam nerf, trap nerf (yes we use trap as well on magicka builds), TBS change and so on.

So if you think of it, the stamina builds will still be running stronger than magicka builds.

Now i DO agree with you regarding stamina, on how they lack shields, must run vMSA weapons, must have a certain rotation (regardless of class) and so forth. But consider the optional sets you have for PvP and the burst, IMO you do not need shields since you have access to shuffle, dodge more often than magicka, have two healing sorcer (vigor and rally) and one must not fall into PvP meta to run proc sets to be effective where magicka have nothing compared to non momster set proc set like stamina (widormaker, viper, morkulden and so on).

PvE, sadly it is the meta to force all stamina builds to run vMSA weapons, forced rotation and only one or two class abilities slotted . But remember, this update is "lowering the ceiling" for DPS, so both magicka and stamina will get hit in PvE significantly.

But generally speaking, i think once update 13 goes live, stamina will still be able to push ahead than magicka in terms of dps, especially with a certain set-up (such as two fanged snake).

Sure, you have slightly higher Single Target DPS... but that does not matter if you only do half the AoE dps... and most time spent is on trash...

Like I felt completely useless up to last boss xD WITH caltrops lol

+ chances to die and *** up a no death run is so much higher on stamina.

So you want Stamina builds to get high AOE as well as the highest single target? Dying more often on stamina is what happens when you play higher risk and rewarded with much higher dps single target than magicka builds.

You also need to realize you are speaking about 1 instance, an instance that very very few player actually do sucessfully. You need to take a look at the burst in pvp, vMSA, vDSA, vDungeons and so on.

Stamina is in a very good place right now, you wish to add more aoe in the mix and survivability....that is just going to unbalance the game even more than it already is, even with the next update.

You claim to feel useless on last boss with caltrops, well that is why you are in a 12 player GROUP, where your advantage as stamina is higher single than aoe, the more suited aoe classes/builds can do what they do best to balance the whole group. Otherwise we will end up with all DDs just single targetting the boss and everying dying passively in the AOEs and nuking boss and skipping mechanics.

It is very clear that Zenimax does not wish that to happen, especially to the changes to overcharger, trolls, flamshooters and all other elites we face in trails. Sure you can still nuke bosses, but how many guilds are sucessfully doing that? 5%? 10%? not much.

You missing the point.

True fact the ST stamina bonus dmg comes not really from the stam power alone . There are the vMSA weapons. For a split second forget they exist. Now magika and stamina are nearly even in ST dps.

Now add them again. ST is higher yes, is the ST so much higher than magikas aoe over stam ? NO

Next thing i have probably run in so many mmorps at top lvl of play in my life that i can say that you clearly have not understand what high risk gameplay means. At the moment you have NO reward for being a stam melee character (stam range is non existent). Because the magika dudes can do better aoe damage and survive all the crazy damage income.

The thing is stam dont need surv. and aoe/cleave damage. Give tham the same aoe, a small ST advantage and we are all happy. This way the raid lead can choose if they want to do content faster with high risk gameplay and take more stamina classes , or go a more lets say save way to put more magika dudes in. That is balance. So both have an advantage and disadvantage.

And 1 more good aoe ability will not break pvp (a better deadly cloak) but help pve so much

Thanks and have a nice day all!

I didnt miss the point at all, look at what i previously said.

Liofa wrote: »

''Our Mag DK reaches 49k ST on rakkhat with 59k overall dps.''

5k more single target DPS and crap AOE vs. 5k less single target and crapton AOE + shields + utility for group .

Since everyone knows trash are the main issue during trials , answer is clear as sky . Stamina needs an AOE buff , not as strong as Magicka AOE of course . But still need something . Caltrops stack maybe ? No , PvP dudes will cry because of stacking caltrops on choke points . More radius on Endless Hail ? Maybe . More radius on Deadly Cloak ? Yes please . See , no change to Single Target , no buff to Stamina in PvP , just buffing AOE . Simple , right ?

Or how about adjusting the tank(s) to position the trash better? we certainly have no issues there and we run with stamina builds in our group just fine, i have yet to hear them complain. And i have yet to see any one back up any of their claims as of now. But i keep repeating myself, so i guess i wills top right here.

Liofa wrote: »

''Our Mag DK reaches 49k ST on rakkhat with 59k overall dps.''

5k more single target DPS and crap AOE vs. 5k less single target and crapton AOE + shields + utility for group .

Since everyone knows trash are the main issue during trials , answer is clear as sky . Stamina needs an AOE buff , not as strong as Magicka AOE of course . But still need something . Caltrops stack maybe ? No , PvP dudes will cry because of stacking caltrops on choke points . More radius on Endless Hail ? Maybe . More radius on Deadly Cloak ? Yes please . See , no change to Single Target , no buff to Stamina in PvP , just buffing AOE . Simple , right ?

Well then it shouldnt be named a "buff" ! making the radius bigger should be a "fix" wich i support. But Alcast is crying not because of "Stamina" play style but just because their Stacking of trash mobs is Crap, And dont talk please about insane AOE dps for magikas, because as soon as the mobs start dying the AOE dps go down very quick.
About stmina players who are crying now also because "Alcast" just have invented the wheel !! IT IS NOT the fauld of magika players is you are not using your still tornado in trial. Accept to loose some ST dps and you will gain a "Crapton" of AOE dps.