Why are Stamina setups bad for Trials? (PvE)

Natas013

A rend morph that worked more like EotS, and bats would be nice, as rends biggest issues are the area it effects is very limiting and it's an AOE that places a DoT and not a DoT AOE.

Riggsy

Natas013 wrote: »

A rend morph that worked more like EotS, and bats would be nice, as rends biggest issues are the area it effects is very limiting and it's an AOE that places a DoT and not a DoT AOE.

Rend is next to worthless in pvp, hard as ^%$# to aim. I wished it were a large circle aoe dot as well.

Shadzilla

Yea if the morph no one uses (thrive in chaos) was changed to basically exactly what the desto ult is but scaled off stam and did physical damage that would help greatly. I would also love to see deadly cloak get a radius and more damage for aoe. As it is right now its a defense only skill, the damage every 3 seconds isn't even recognizable.

Shadzilla

Bone shield also needs to be somewhat viable for pve. At the same time not overpowered in pvp.

Shadzilla

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gPm2wGs7f0

nerf the sets stam use as well plz zos

ArcVelarian

All of this makes me wonder if Warden is going to have a skill line to fill in the missing Ranged Stamina role.

Izaki

Shadzilla wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gPm2wGs7f0

nerf the sets stam use as well plz zos

Rending Slashes is a bleed. Bleeds ignore all penetration. Which is why he didn't get any difference in numbers between NMG and TFS. I do agree that it is strange that each consecutive tick of Caltrops didn't stack the penetration. Things need to be tested with like Endless Hail on the target, to see if the 0.5 ticks stack the penetration or not.

SiliconShadow

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gPm2wGs7f0

nerf the sets stam use as well plz zos

Rending Slashes is a bleed. Bleeds ignore all penetration. Which is why he didn't get any difference in numbers between NMG and TFS. I do agree that it is strange that each consecutive tick of Caltrops didn't stack the penetration. Things need to be tested with like Endless Hail on the target, to see if the 0.5 ticks stack the penetration or not.

A basic test with fully charged heavy attacks, with a white 2 hander (no points spent) and all other gear off with no CP would be best for a base line test.

As with other procs from the video it looks like it is only proccing off initial hits, not off damage over time effects, bleeds and probably channel hits too.

The wording is "(5 items) When you deal damage, your Physical Penetration is increased by 11-1000 for 3 seconds, stacking up to 5 times." perhaps this should be "Direct Damage".

usmcjdking

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gPm2wGs7f0

nerf the sets stam use as well plz zos

Rending Slashes is a bleed. Bleeds ignore all penetration. Which is why he didn't get any difference in numbers between NMG and TFS. I do agree that it is strange that each consecutive tick of Caltrops didn't stack the penetration. Things need to be tested with like Endless Hail on the target, to see if the 0.5 ticks stack the penetration or not.

Mitigation. Bleeds ignore all mitigation with the exception of shields.

Shadzilla

I haven't bother to look into any of it, just figured I would post. Stamina is a complete write off for this patch anyways, as per usual of 90% of the last 3 years.

caperon

What is buged is the pen stacking with caltrops (and maybe other dots, since probably only the 1st tick is able to stack pen). I tested it wit light atacks and TFS works fine, stacking 5 times and providing almost the same bonus dmg as major fracture.

In any real combat situation the stacking works well and makes this set very good.

caperon

About the topic, as Xerton noted, the main problem of stamina in vMol (because is only really a problem there) is the lack of pure ranged options for stamina. Since many groups want 1 or 2 magicka DK for chaining/breath and 1 or 2 templars for beaming/extra suport and aoe that doesn't leave much spots free for stamina in a trial that the optimal group consist in 4 ranged dps and 4 melee (in HM at least 4 players will get the debuf, probably 6). Making bow/bow a viable option would go a long way in equalize number of magicka and stamina dd in trials.

The other problem in HM vmol for stamina is the amount of damage mecanics do (you are 2 shoted often if you aren't fast) and how they do it (some unavoidable). In this situation shields are very helpful, giving magicka an edge in survival. This can be mitigated by blocking or dodging (the natural mitigation sources of stamina), lets say that stamina has a higher skill cap in vet trials, you don't have the crutch of a shield so you need to block and roll dodge at the right times. But keep in mind that shields help but don't save you in any situation. I play magsorc in one of my groups and i roll dodge very often in order to survive when i get targeted by 2 or more mecanics at once (*** from the midle + smash, stationary orbs, meteors).

1 partial solution would be increase blade cloack mitigation to 25% and maybe increase a bit the dmg the skill does, like pulse each 2 seconds instead of 3. That would increase te cleave damage and help survive a bit more.

1 thing I don't understand is the trap double nerf (minor force and 30% damage). I'm ok if the design goal was giving stam more single target damage and magicka more cleave damage and it seems that ZOS overdid the nerf putting stamina too close to magicka in terms of single target dps (all magicka got bufed at least via destro staff) so the survival diference offsets the benefits of higher dps.

Said that, stamina can still dish more single target damage than magicka, specially if they have some suport sets like sunderflame or nigh mother, letting some stamina dds use pure damage sets instead of two fanged snake. Put 9 stamina players on hard mode Sanctum and you will rip the serpent like it was the adjudicator. Not having to dump your primary resource pool of 42-55k makes it a lot easier too, so its a matter of how the fights are designed too.

caperon

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Just spit balling. If they made the big hits from bosses hit for a little less, tanks could focus more utility and group a little easier. This would make running stam characters a bit better without direct buffs. If they made the big AOE/Hit everyone abilities a bit weaker or some other way to mitigate through some other avenue, then you could run stamina with less risk without providing them a direct buff. Or they could make the big boss hits be even harder (making tank more important) while nerfing the aoe/hit everyone mechanics. Make it more important and harder to keep tank alive.

This is an interesting idea because in fact ZOS introduced the Lunar Bastion set in the same trial, probably with the idea to offset the large amounts of damage everyone is getting all the time since the area is big enought to cover all the melee camp. The problem is that this set is a bit weak. Maybe if the shield stacked, now refreshes itself, but that could make it too strong or increasing the mount of shield to put it more in line of the damage the players recieve (like 8k each projectile from the midle with 100 points in elemental defender, like 16k from rakkat jumping on the platform...).

montiferus

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel just said on ESO Live that the only metric they looked at in this "balance" sweep was single target dps.

#facepalm

And therein lies the problem with this patch. Single Target DPS is just once small facet of the game. To focus on just this is so myopic it beggars belief. I am really disappointed ZOS did not look at the big picture with this update. If they had bothered to look at the following....

1. AOE DPS
2. Sustain
3. Survivability

Then I think we would have seen a better balance between magicka and stamina. As someone who favors playing stam it is really frustrating that half my toons are not wanted in Vet Trials because of this. I realize end game trials is a very small portion of their business but doesn't it make sense in general to have an overall competitive balance between the two? Doesn't that keep the population interested in the game?

Agnal

Dracane wrote: »

It's not a waste, you'll still have great damage.

You must be kidding? Tell me one reason why groups would want a stamina DD anymore? "Great damage"? , Nope Magicka can do that. Do we have survivability, nope. AOE? Lol. I maybe biased because I prefer playing stamina, but these facts cannot be denied. Why create such a gap between the two classes? I have been "adviced" by some friends to play Magicka, "adapt" to the meta. What if I don't want to? I love playing stamina, I'd rather stop playing the game than play something I don't enjoy.

Shadzilla

@Alcast Any update on this thread? I mean apart from the NDA all of you guys signed I'm sure zos was informed of stamina's non-existence in end game competitive trials? This patch is downright ruthless for stamina toons...

April

RIP my stam DK

OrphanHelgen

Alcast wrote: »

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.

Zhaj'hassa the Forgotten (2:53.4s) - Total DPS (+14): 59,101 (10,252,447 Damage), DPS: 48,054 (8,335,111 Damage)

S'kinrai (+12) - DPS: 59,490 (9,513,246 Damage in 2:39.9s)

Rakkhat (3:47.6s) - Total DPS (+4): 56,241 (12,803,073 Damage), DPS: 48,551 (11,052,285 Damage)

Non maelstrom

Shadzilla

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Are stamina dps going to be viable in trials next patch? There were like 30 of us spamming that in the last eso live but the question was never addressed.

NiclasFridholm

If you call 48K ST on Rakkhat with no maelstroem weapons underperforming then I dont know what to say!

Xecil

The official radio silence is really doing a number on my willingness to remain a paying customer. A simple "Stamina will be a contender in PvE" would be nice. It's a nobrainer to choose between a melee with a complex rotation and a ranged, shield popping sorc that drops 3 GTAoEs and holds left click for 8 seconds. Don't even get me started on Grim Focus.

jeskah

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.

Zhaj'hassa the Forgotten (2:53.4s) - Total DPS (+14): 59,101 (10,252,447 Damage), DPS: 48,054 (8,335,111 Damage)

S'kinrai (+12) - DPS: 59,490 (9,513,246 Damage in 2:39.9s)

Rakkhat (3:47.6s) - Total DPS (+4): 56,241 (12,803,073 Damage), DPS: 48,551 (11,052,285 Damage)

Non maelstrom

Out of curiousity: what class/build? (DK?)

And what do you think, would you see bigger numbers with Vma weapons?

Jaguar_SF

Well as of right now Stamina doesn't exist in any PvE group. However, buffing stamina might cause issues with PvP making them too overpowered, I play Stamina DK and I can tell you it is one of the most op classes on PvP right now, too Op to the point that I can two shot people on a daily basis, let alone the 1 shot Night blade gankers. My main mag sorc has no chance on my Stam DK. I don't want to bring PvP since your post is about PvE mainly. However, buffing stamina in general would be related to PvP and would make the unbalance even worse since stamina is already stronger than magic on that area.

Balancing this problem would be very difficult for Zos I can understand their situation here.

Anti_Virus

ArcVelarian wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder if Warden is going to have a skill line to fill in the missing Ranged Stamina role.

Yeah it is Ranged Stamina morphs infact the entire Animal companions skill tree will have stam ranged morphs.

joaaocaampos

Welcome to PvE vs PvP balancing!

Alcast

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

All of this makes me wonder if Warden is going to have a skill line to fill in the missing Ranged Stamina role.

Yeah it is Ranged Stamina morphs infact the entire Animal companions skill tree will have stam ranged morphs.

Yep definitely. Will do some testing on the pts.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

So I finally put together a set of Jailbreaker and Fiords for my stamblade. I can do writs faster than anyone. Nerf Stam!

Ruinhorn

Jaguar_SF wrote: »

Well as of right now Stamina doesn't exist in any PvE group. However, buffing stamina might cause issues with PvP making them too overpowered, I play Stamina DK and I can tell you it is one of the most op classes on PvP right now, too Op to the point that I can two shot people on a daily basis, let alone the 1 shot Night blade gankers. My main mag sorc has no chance on my Stam DK. I don't want to bring PvP since your post is about PvE mainly. However, buffing stamina in general would be related to PvP and would make the unbalance even worse since stamina is already stronger than magic on that area.

Balancing this problem would be very difficult for Zos I can understand their situation here.

ZOS are balancing them since beta. The problem is not that it's so difficult in need a lot of work, but in that ZOS doesn't really care about it like about Crown Store for example.
If they can't balance PvE and PvP in any way for such a long time, they could just split every skill into two parts: skill will have one effects while in Cyrodiil/IC and other while out of PvP. In this way they could balance every skill separetely from each others. PvP players could get what they want - no chance proc, stable and certain numbers. While PvE players will be balanced only regarding PvE content.
But, sadly, as I said, ZOS absolutely ignores players' opinions. As Wrobel say, as they "balance" it.

My main character is stamblade. For now it's the worst choice for PvE. I'm the only one NB in trials thanks to guildmates who allows me to go with. But stams are nothing for now in PvE. Any magicka build wins stam everywhere: survivability, single and AoE damage, ranged damage (not melee), better resists (same physical and much more spell resist) and etc.

So, don't say "it is difficult". Life is difficult, but everyone lives somehow. If they wanted to solve this problem, they already could do it a long time ago. For now ZOS just nerfed stams after a lot of little girls crying posts from PvP players about unfair ganking and "OP" stamina players. There was a lot of ideas and solutions from players about this. Who cares? No one.

If you have started playing recently, never go stam. There are only mages in the game for now. Take a stick and poke some mobs with fireballs.

kalimar44

Why can't they add PvP skill settings and a pve skill settings?? What I'm trying to say is your skills would change to PvP mode while in PvP and a pve mode while in pve. Skills that work fine in pve, but are to powerful for PvP would change so there not op.

Ruinhorn

*bump thread*

So.... After Morrowind patch notes, how do stams feel like?
Personally I can't add anything. Really thinking about quitting, because after 3 years stams got their "survivability" with

Siphoning Strikes:
This ability now causes your Light and Heavy Attacks to restore Health instead of Magicka or Stamina.
Increased the duration of this ability and its morphs to 20 seconds from 15 seconds.
Developer Comments:
This is a significant reduction to the Magicka and Stamina restored by these abilities, but the addition of Health restore should give Nightblades more healing to improve their survivability.

and

Vigor: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 30%.
Developer Comments:
Vigor was too cheap for an area of effect healing ability, so we’ve increased its cost so there is more of an impact to keeping the heal over time buff active.

with overall nerf for magicka and stamina players.

Someone in ZOS hates stamina, it's a riddle for me, why. Really can't understand for all these years, but it's a fact.
All people were asking, everything people were suggesting, every problems and ideas, everything was ignored.

In order to lower the gap between players with high and low CP, all Champion passive values are now significantly more frontloaded.

My god, please.... Do you believe in it? From now the gap will be even bigger. End-game requirements goes higher and higher and we have larger stratification between them and new/not experience players and etc. "Elite" and others if you understand what I'm talking about. Because it would be more difficult to play vet content for now, less people will ever see this. Moreover, with such RNG in game (yes, I'm talking about how people are farming MA weapons and MoL stuff for months) and increased difficulty what should we do? Spend even more time in the game farming again and again?

If I'm wrong, please, correct me. But as stam player since Beta I have no way for stams in the game. And especially for my Nightblade which is already the worst class in the game with disproportionately higher requirements for skills and experience. Basically we have no changes in this patch for stams at all except nerfs (like any other classes also) and Caltrops buff, which is really good btw and maybe will save the situation a bit (have no invitation, but maybe Caltrops are gonna be one more powerfull AoE for stams with opportunity to stack them).

Caltrops:
Multiple player characters can now stack this ability and its morphs in the same area and damage the same target.
Reduced the size of this ability and its morphs to 8 meters from 12 meters.
Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 12 seconds from 30 seconds.
Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
Increased the damage of this ability and its morphs by approximately 75%.
Developer Comments:
The changes to Caltrops allow it to behave more like a standard ground-targeted damage over time ability, such as Lightning Splash or Volley. This will help improve Stamina builds’ sustained single target and area of effect damage in dungeons and Trials.

Still useless bonuses from Medium armor tree like sneaking, sprinting and etc. Still huge gap between magicka and stam DDs. Still complicated rotation while sorcs basically need 3 buttons to click. No shields (you know, ticking healing and damage ignoring are two absolutely different things). Now we also getting avay from sustainability and got nothing for survivability.

It's one direction communication. Players always ready to recommend, ask, help with finding solutions for problems. They do! What ZOS do? Instead of solving problems they just "let's cut this and this and should be fine". Years of nerfing, ignoring and hiding from problems won't save the game. Hiding from problems is not a solution.

And as P.S. I'll just leave this comment from Patch Notes here:

skwherl wrote: »

"This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s)"

Ah i see you are catering to the casual players and not caring about the hardcore players who put time into their builds to get the best possible. Amazing decision... truly just... amazing

If you could literally just revert back to thieves guild and leave it there for eternity that would be better than you trying and failing to make the game better. I do have my opinion on what you guys are doing to your game and i think i would get banned from the forums if i gave my opinion.

Also why introduce a new class when you can't even handle the 4 you already have? This will just create more bugs and problems.

And when will you stop making ideas yourselves and actually listen to what the people who have been here for 3 years+ want in the game and know whats best for it?