Why are Stamina setups bad for Trials? (PvE)

Silver_Strider

I will still advocate for Circle of Protection to get at least a DoT component added to it (maybe a cost reduction as well because it's stupid expensive). The skill is underwhelming as it currently is that adding a DoT to it wouldn't greatly affect PvP but it would at least help buff up Stamina AoE damage as well as being an excellent group support skill with the resistance from damage it offers because, let's be honestly, stamina builds offer **** when it comes to group support.

I also like the thought of uping the radius of Blade Cloak and maybe adding a bleed component to it. Deadly Cloak is pretty misleading given how low the damage on the skill is and that the 2nd cast still takes up a GCD better used on something like Flurry.

Toc de Malsvi

Volley could use an increase to the base skill radius, proportionally applied for both morphs.

Trapping Webs really should have a much larger radius, as well as increasing the damage from synergy. With the size of the current radius and timing issues it should do at least double its current damage, this wouldn't be needed if the size of the AOE was simply doubled.

Circle of Protection is pretty expensive for a very small buff to protection. It would be nice if this dealt some AOE dot damage although I still doubt it would earn a spot on the bar.

All of these would have little to no effect on PVP while subtly increasing the stamina AOE potential for PVE.

jpeter88

1

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Volley could use an increase to the base skill radius, proportionally applied for both morphs.

I used to think the same thing but if you look at all the other AOE's in the game you'll change your mind to.

Liquid lightning, eruption, spear shards, etc all have the same radius is volley. The only AOE's that really make magicka so good at AOE is destro ulti and wall of elements, otherwise its about the same. Stamina just needs a good ground poison AOE like blockade or a nice AOE bleed dot. skills like trapping webs, etc seems like they need to b reworked in general at this point.

at this point we wont see any changes in THIS update. Judging from the eso live the other day, i think the devs have read a ton about stamina concerns, its just there is not enough time to implement anything this go around. as a community we need to stay on top of the issues and get good threads going so we are not to late on the next patch lol.

Shadzilla

Quote from a vet maw run today when I was dpsing... "people still use stam dps in trials? thought they were dead" my response "there are still a few jedi left, will be much more difficult in a week".

The only thing stamina had over magicka was single target damage. Magicka completely destroys stamina in AOE, cleave, survivability and utility... Considering 95% of this games fights all have adds, single target damage is not very high on the priority list. If you cant live through hardmode mechanics, or ur doing half of the aoe/cleave damage all the magicka toons are doing your score in the end will hurt with stamina dps. End of story.

Shadzilla

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Pass wrobel along this thread information please. Ask him to read it, and he will realize why stamina dps are toons are rarely seen in top tier score runs.

jpeter88

Shadzilla wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Pass wrobel along this thread information please. Ask him to read it, and he will realize why stamina dps are toons are rarely seen in top tier score runs.

I think they have read it, seemed like it on eso live. There just isnt time to change anything for this patch without proper testing so it will be put on the back burner until next patch. Magicka will be meta until vvardenfel drops im sure. geared up the mag sorc and mag dk and my stam toons that took months to get the right gear for are now my farming, dungeon runners cuz they are fast, thats about i lol

Alcast

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

ZoM_Head

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I will bring this up one last time, your video with combat metrics showing 54K single target in trails and 63K AOE is contradicting everything you say.

Alcast

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I will bring this up one last time, your video with combat metrics showing 54K single target in trails and 63K AOE is contradicting everything you say.

dude what is your problem jesus. You are looking at a bossfight... when I talk about AOE i mean trashfights. How hard is that to understand?
Taking ONE parse of me and saying "everything is alright" simply does not work. Unless you wanna troll me

Look at leaderboards, tell me how many stamboys are in a group.

ZoM_Head

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I will bring this up one last time, your video with combat metrics showing 54K single target in trails and 63K AOE is contradicting everything you say.

dude what is your problem jesus. You are looking at a bossfight... when I talk about AOE i mean trashfights. How hard is that to understand?
Taking ONE parse of me and saying "everything is alright" simply does not work. Unless you wanna troll me

Look at leaderboards, tell me how many stamboys are in a group.

My problem? none, i made everything clear and whatever i say is being avoided.

OrphanHelgen

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I will bring this up one last time, your video with combat metrics showing 54K single target in trails and 63K AOE is contradicting everything you say.

dude what is your problem jesus. You are looking at a bossfight... when I talk about AOE i mean trashfights. How hard is that to understand?
Taking ONE parse of me and saying "everything is alright" simply does not work. Unless you wanna troll me

Look at leaderboards, tell me how many stamboys are in a group.

My problem? none, i made everything clear and whatever i say is being avoided.

Magicka DK I see.. looks like someone are scared their main will be beaten

ZoM_Head

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I will bring this up one last time, your video with combat metrics showing 54K single target in trails and 63K AOE is contradicting everything you say.

dude what is your problem jesus. You are looking at a bossfight... when I talk about AOE i mean trashfights. How hard is that to understand?
Taking ONE parse of me and saying "everything is alright" simply does not work. Unless you wanna troll me

Look at leaderboards, tell me how many stamboys are in a group.

My problem? none, i made everything clear and whatever i say is being avoided.

Magicka DK I see.. looks like someone are scared their main will be beaten

Eh? really? im not one who thinks in this line at all, infact i admire those that achieve rediculous numbers like Alcast.

Just because i dont see eye to eye regarding certain subjects does not mean i am "scared to be beaten" nor does that mean i do not respect others. But "scared to be beaten"? as far as i can see we are ALL already beaten by Alcasts stamDK getting those numbers.


Please stick to the topic of the OP next time, makes more progress to everyone.

Edziu

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Please stick to the topic of the OP next time, makes more progress to everyone.

so I have 1 request
can you please tell my why most trial group are taking only magica dps? why stamina dps is that rarely to see on trial leaderboars?

Xerton

Edziu wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Please stick to the topic of the OP next time, makes more progress to everyone.

so I have 1 request
can you please tell my why most trial group are taking only magica dps? why stamina dps is that rarely to see on trial leaderboars?

Most of all? Because running more than 2 in vMoL HM is just crazy.
I don't know if you are familiar with HM mechanics, but let me tell you it is a pain in the a** for me as a stam player.
Not to go into detail, but when you are like half way into the fight in HM you will get real problems if people stack.
And as there is only so much space next to the boss and stam can only deal dmg when standing melee...
Well you can see where i am going with this.

Why they are taking not even 1 or 2? Maybe they are the same guys, that are convinced HA weaving builds deal no dmg

Edziu

Xerton wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Please stick to the topic of the OP next time, makes more progress to everyone.

so I have 1 request
can you please tell my why most trial group are taking only magica dps? why stamina dps is that rarely to see on trial leaderboars?

Most of all? Because running more than 2 in vMoL HM is just crazy.
I don't know if you are familiar with HM mechanics, but let me tell you it is a pain in the a** for me as a stam player.
Not to go into detail, but when you are like half way into the fight in HM you will get real problems if people stack.
And as there is only so much space next to the boss and stam can only deal dmg when standing melee...
Well you can see where i am going with this.

Why they are taking not even 1 or 2? Maybe they are the same guys, that are convinced HA weaving builds deal no dmg

I myself know why stam DD's are unwelcome, I wanted to get answer from @ZoM_Head as he defend stamina dd is balanced to magic dd on trials and this stamina dd almost dont need any buffs to be viable on trials

jpeter88

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I dont pvp much because i lag to much so i dont really know how it works but do you think they could implement a system where if a skill is good for PVE but breaks pvp they can scale it so it works with pvp as well. I just see a lot of things that areabout perfect in PVE but then its to good for pvp and they nerf it to where it sucks for PVE as well. PVE and pvp being to different monsters i think they need some kind of system that they can tweak things so they work in both cases.

Durham

The overall community right now thinks Stam is overpowered in PVE and PvP ... does not matter the facts... Magicka will dominate after this patch like it did 2 years ago.. then there will be a Stam buff 3 months from now ... it's a cycle..

Xerton

Edziu wrote: »

Xerton wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Please stick to the topic of the OP next time, makes more progress to everyone.

so I have 1 request
can you please tell my why most trial group are taking only magica dps? why stamina dps is that rarely to see on trial leaderboars?

Most of all? Because running more than 2 in vMoL HM is just crazy.
I don't know if you are familiar with HM mechanics, but let me tell you it is a pain in the a** for me as a stam player.
Not to go into detail, but when you are like half way into the fight in HM you will get real problems if people stack.
And as there is only so much space next to the boss and stam can only deal dmg when standing melee...
Well you can see where i am going with this.

Why they are taking not even 1 or 2? Maybe they are the same guys, that are convinced HA weaving builds deal no dmg

I myself know why stam DD's are unwelcome, I wanted to get answer from @ZoM_Head as he defend stamina dd is balanced to magic dd on trials and this stamina dd almost dont need any buffs to be viable on trials

The actualy problem is, that stam can only run one build. Cause except for some tech choices due to different class skills every stam build looks the same, because everyone has to run vmsa weapons.
And that one stam build can only deal high ST dmg.

If there was a possibility to play bow/bow for example while having the same dps as for example a sorc would, you could bring more than 2 stam into a trial.

You need that cleave dmg only mag provides at the moment and can take a few guys that only pull high ST.
One or two stam dds are no problem imo, you actually benefit from their higher ST dmg. But you can't take more of them.

And the moment it is impossible to bring more than 2 stam into a group, thats the moment you should realize there is something wrong.

I don't fully agree with Alcas, i believe you can still run with stam after the patch, but i agree that something has to be done to improve our overall situation.

souravami

Even if you give stamina setups decent aoe and a shield, still magica dps will be meta in trials. In a 12 man group if more than 5 DPS are melee, you'll have huge problems. So you need at least 4-5 ranged DPS. Stamina is basically melee, there is no competitive ranged stamina build in game. So you have to take atleast 5-6 magica DPS in trials i.e. the majority of the damage dealers will be magica no matter what.

Parafrost

jpeter88 wrote: »

1

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Volley could use an increase to the base skill radius, proportionally applied for both morphs.

I used to think the same thing but if you look at all the other AOE's in the game you'll change your mind to.

Liquid lightning, eruption, spear shards, etc all have the same radius is volley. The only AOE's that really make magicka so good at AOE is destro ulti and wall of elements, otherwise its about the same. Stamina just needs a good ground poison AOE like blockade or a nice AOE bleed dot. skills like trapping webs, etc seems like they need to b reworked in general at this point.

at this point we wont see any changes in THIS update. Judging from the eso live the other day, i think the devs have read a ton about stamina concerns, its just there is not enough time to implement anything this go around. as a community we need to stay on top of the issues and get good threads going so we are not to late on the next patch lol.

And grothdarr, illambris + destro lightning has a nice aoe. Temps spammable is an aoe, nbs have crap aoe, dks got tons of aoes. Stam has caltrops(can only use 1 of each morph for 1 person), steel tornado(weak in comparison to all of the other aoes), deadly cloak which is a decent aoe but not strong enough(buff possibly?) and velidreth/stormfist(no crit so its weaker than grothdarr's aoe potential and illambris double procs both elements). Stam needs some sort of cleave to dual wield. Maybe make rending slash cleave?

SwaminoNowlino

In theory you could argue that the imbalance is less about stuff on the player end and more about how trial mechanics have evolved to keep up with player power creep.

DPS used to be able to kind of ignore survival and just burn, so long as tank held agro on the big hitter you were cool. Then they buffed adds and gave bosses big AOE type damage things that hit everyone. Tank just couldn't pull agro to save everyone. This put stam at a disadvantage as they don't have the reacting time and survival that comes with shielding.

Just spit balling. If they made the big hits from bosses hit for a little less, tanks could focus more utility and group a little easier. This would make running stam characters a bit better without direct buffs. If they made the big AOE/Hit everyone abilities a bit weaker or some other way to mitigate through some other avenue, then you could run stamina with less risk without providing them a direct buff. Or they could make the big boss hits be even harder (making tank more important) while nerfing the aoe/hit everyone mechanics. Make it more important and harder to keep tank alive.

The key to the highest trial score is how well the adds are grouped and how quickly they are burnt. Magicka will currently win this every time. If stam hadn't been nerfed single target, the above suggestions would probably make the gap smaller, but would likely make trials too easy.

Pardon the ramblings, just thinking out loud. Could probably look at the trial mechanics and alleviate the imbalance without buffing this or that and messing up PvP balance. Then you could tinker with nightblades and stamplars to get them on par with everyone else and you'd be able to balance end-game PvE without adversely impacting PvP.

What do you think @Alcast? Could they tinker with trial mechanics to kind of mask the imbalance without making everything a faceroll? A balance where single target stam dps was superior without being crippled in terms of survival and magicka continues to dominate cleave/aoe? Then your ideal setup would be split between mag and stam?

Shinkhan

Edziu wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Please stick to the topic of the OP next time, makes more progress to everyone.

so I have 1 request
can you please tell my why most trial group are taking only magica dps? why stamina dps is that rarely to see on trial leaderboars?

Vmol not all trials ! and this is related to the tactic only.

Shinkhan

souravami wrote: »

Even if you give stamina setups decent aoe and a shield, still magica dps will be meta in trials. In a 12 man group if more than 5 DPS are melee, you'll have huge problems. So you need at least 4-5 ranged DPS. Stamina is basically melee, there is no competitive ranged stamina build in game. So you have to take atleast 5-6 magica DPS in trials i.e. the majority of the damage dealers will be magica no matter what.

WTH guys seriously !? ITS ONLY VMOL 1ST BOSS ! Why are you all acting like cowards and go range ? More risks for stams is rewarded with very hight dps thats it.

Shinkhan

Parafrost wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

1

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Volley could use an increase to the base skill radius, proportionally applied for both morphs.

I used to think the same thing but if you look at all the other AOE's in the game you'll change your mind to.

Liquid lightning, eruption, spear shards, etc all have the same radius is volley. The only AOE's that really make magicka so good at AOE is destro ulti and wall of elements, otherwise its about the same. Stamina just needs a good ground poison AOE like blockade or a nice AOE bleed dot. skills like trapping webs, etc seems like they need to b reworked in general at this point.

at this point we wont see any changes in THIS update. Judging from the eso live the other day, i think the devs have read a ton about stamina concerns, its just there is not enough time to implement anything this go around. as a community we need to stay on top of the issues and get good threads going so we are not to late on the next patch lol.

And grothdarr, illambris + destro lightning has a nice aoe. Temps spammable is an aoe, nbs have crap aoe, dks got tons of aoes. Stam has caltrops(can only use 1 of each morph for 1 person), steel tornado(weak in comparison to all of the other aoes), deadly cloak which is a decent aoe but not strong enough(buff possibly?) and velidreth/stormfist(no crit so its weaker than grothdarr's aoe potential and illambris double procs both elements). Stam needs some sort of cleave to dual wield. Maybe make rending slash cleave?

Steel tornado week ? Wake up dude !

SiliconShadow

Xerton wrote: »

I don't fully agree with Alcas, i believe you can still run with stam after the patch, but i agree that something has to be done to improve our overall situation.

That's probably because you will have rob.s in the group as a stamina, and let's be fair that guy is inhuman!

Shadzilla

Shinkhan wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

1

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Volley could use an increase to the base skill radius, proportionally applied for both morphs.

I used to think the same thing but if you look at all the other AOE's in the game you'll change your mind to.

Liquid lightning, eruption, spear shards, etc all have the same radius is volley. The only AOE's that really make magicka so good at AOE is destro ulti and wall of elements, otherwise its about the same. Stamina just needs a good ground poison AOE like blockade or a nice AOE bleed dot. skills like trapping webs, etc seems like they need to b reworked in general at this point.

at this point we wont see any changes in THIS update. Judging from the eso live the other day, i think the devs have read a ton about stamina concerns, its just there is not enough time to implement anything this go around. as a community we need to stay on top of the issues and get good threads going so we are not to late on the next patch lol.

And grothdarr, illambris + destro lightning has a nice aoe. Temps spammable is an aoe, nbs have crap aoe, dks got tons of aoes. Stam has caltrops(can only use 1 of each morph for 1 person), steel tornado(weak in comparison to all of the other aoes), deadly cloak which is a decent aoe but not strong enough(buff possibly?) and velidreth/stormfist(no crit so its weaker than grothdarr's aoe potential and illambris double procs both elements). Stam needs some sort of cleave to dual wield. Maybe make rending slash cleave?

Steel tornado week ? Wake up dude !

All of your posts are so inaccurate I really hope you are trolling...

Shadzilla

Durham wrote: »

The overall community right now thinks Stam is overpowered in PVE and PvP ... does not matter the facts... Magicka will dominate after this patch like it did 2 years ago.. then there will be a Stam buff 3 months from now ... it's a cycle..

Mag will dominate like 2 years ago? Where have you been dude lmao... Stamina has been meta in pve for 2 patches in this entire games existence... Magicka has beet meta for over 2 years... FYI balance patches don't come around every 3 months...

Shadzilla

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@ZoM_Head I am only talking Trials... as you can see in the title of this thread.

I am aware that in PVP for example stamina is pretty decent Solo.. that is why we try to find solutions that help stamina in PvE but not buff them in PvP.

I will bring this up one last time, your video with combat metrics showing 54K single target in trails and 63K AOE is contradicting everything you say.

Everyone is already aware of the single target advantage stamina currently has, not by much either. There are lots of magplar parses on rak close to 60k, which is considered a single target fight. Keep in mind next week stamina will have lower single target than magicka as well... Alcast is referring to the other 95% of the trial fights, that all have major aoe and most of the time in trials is spent on. Single target fights are rare. Magicka's dps advantage in aoe fights is usually double what stamina can do... Magplar doing 59k dps on rak versus stam dks 63k is extremely close in comparison considering stamina is supposed to be SO MUCH BETTER in a single target fight... Watch what next weeks update does to the magplar 59k rak vs stam dk 63k rak. Don't even wanna touch on survivability/utility that mag has over stam...

usmcjdking

Here's the issue with stam.

To pull competitive numbers with mag in the upcoming patch, you need all 12 skill slots. Each slot you change out for utility/survival will negatively impact your DPS at a much larger rate than magicka.

So it becomes an issue of you can't just give us "more skills". You also need to be wary about buffing skills. Stam is already exceptionally strong in solo applications and buffing it further would equate to stam = solo / mag = group meta that we already currently see.

This leaves very few areas for potential buffs.

This leads me to believe that stamina is already balanced with the exception of jabplar and to a degree stamblade. The only way to balance stamina and magicka is to unilaterally nerf magicka.

Liofa

usmcjdking wrote: »

Here's the issue with stam.

To pull competitive numbers with mag in the upcoming patch, you need all 12 skill slots. Each slot you change out for utility/survival will negatively impact your DPS at a much larger rate than magicka.

So it becomes an issue of you can't just give us "more skills". You also need to be wary about buffing skills. Stam is already exceptionally strong in solo applications and buffing it further would equate to stam = solo / mag = group meta that we already currently see.

This leaves very few areas for potential buffs.

This leads me to believe that stamina is already balanced with the exception of jabplar and to a degree stamblade. The only way to balance stamina and magicka is to unilaterally nerf magicka.

Sir ! You just triggered Magicka players ! Hide here !

*points the fact that top of leaderboards are with only 2 stamina most and rest Magicka*

No , seriously though . Nerfs are unwanted . It takes away the feeling of progression . I don't support that . I just want some kind of AOE . As I suggested before , more radius for Deadly Cloak and Endless Hail would be really nice .

Comments about the Steel Tornado . I can't believe what I am reading . Think like this . Just imagine . They take Blockade away from you and put a skill like Liquid Lightning instead . Small one but still same damage . Only then you would understand what it is like to be a stamina player . Would you actually stop your rotation and use Pulsar if something like this existed ? Probably not . Hell , if you answered yes , I don't even know what to say . Understand now ?