PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

MaxwellC · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Since you seem to refuse these, I am no surprised that you are plagued with failure, because you refuse to open your mind.
It could be a lack of experience at your end, because you probably only play in groups and lack the needed understanding. Solo players however, know these issues very well.

See right there, I was giving you a pass since you obviously do not play a Mag DK consistently and I definitely doubt you even have one but that's another story. Your assumption on how I play is funny, I don't play my Mag DK open PvP a lot because well I only play solo (clarify: I cannot run my mag dk solo as it sucks while my stam dk can dodge for days). If you play XBL NA go to Haderus or scourge and I'm sure a few people recognize my gamertag just ask them if I'm ever in a group (It'll be a resounding NO).

Mag DK has an ultimate as it's burst that's the point uhh Mag NB has extremely strong skills like sap essence and sorc well you can use your curse and follow up with your mines/shield stack for days. On top of that you seem to feel that talons and fossilize are some cheap skill that we can continuously use in order to kill the opponent please stop I guess you don't play PvP and fight someone using immovable pots. I cannot keep spamming my whip that hits like a noodle depending if I can proc a power lash or not, I cannot rely on DoTs since sorcs like yourself shield stack to no end while others heal through it and purge/purify it.

Don't come to this thread spreading your 1v1 balance ideas because as I stated YOU DO NOT DETERMINE BALANCE ON 1V1 <--Read it again so it sticks to you.

If you feel that struggle solo please come to Xbox as in my sig it shows my mag DK has been long retired (at Praetorian rank CP around 240 or so but was that at v14). My XBL stam DK is practically a legate while my Mag is almost a praetorian as well, I'd love to show you how much I "struggle".

Here's an example why I wouldn't go solo Mag DK because well my Stam DK can get away like this http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Maxwell/video/25939311

MaxwellC · January 2017

Let me also add you know what my Stam DK struggles in? Resource management, dealing burst damage, and offensive class skills. In the video I use noxious breath but not for it's debuff simply for it's spam-able breath which I use for enemies who are in stealth. That's how useful that ability is damage wise as it hits a what 3k tooltip (on guards i hit like a 4.1k crit lmao). Sorcerers have the best sustain in the game so I'm sure you don't know the sustain issues the DK class suffers as a whole.

My Mag DK suffers from sustain, being pigeonholed into a 5 heavy build to stay alive or 5 light block build. It relies on valkyn skoria for damage and no matter what class I still have to use max health/max regen and even still both variant (stam/mag) struggle. Mag DK suffers when it comes to trying to fight multiple targets now my stam can do it because he can dodge roll but my mag oh no that's not happening unless I'm 5 heavy block building it which again is a pigeonhole that all mag DKs generally may resort to.

silverhammer92 · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

But ohhh, DK need to be an exception or what ? No, Dk can rely on ults for burst just like all other classes do.

I know what you try to say, but I really disagree with it. DK need to be an exception, and here is why:

Sorc rely on their ult for a burst-kill
Nightblade rely on their ult for a burst-kill or survivability
Templars rely on their ult for a burst-kill or survivability
DK's rely on their ult for a burst-kill or survivabilit AND for resourcemanagement.

To be able to put enough pressure on the enemy you need a lot of dots on your bar. This restricts your playstyle.
The fact that DK's resourcemanagement is linked to the use of an ultimate makes the whole thing a bit more complicated.

The two obvious solutions would be:

make DK have a resourcemanagement appart from Battleroar
make DK not rely on an ult for a kill

I personally like the challenge to maintain your resources and still burst the enemy in some situations, but to be fair: it is a unbalance to the other classes...

MaxwellC · January 2017

@silverhammer92
I disagree with sorcs burst being an ultimate since they have curse or now it's called haunting something that hits twice through block nonetheless lol. NBs at-least for stam has incredible burst with just their abilities alone while Magblades tend to use that curse soft cc move (name skips me lol) which does pretty good damage. Templars lol well mag wise they've got heals for days that at times can negate damage but if they're a 5 light build I can almost always get them especially with the changes of RD (which imo shouldn't have happened). Mag DK uses an ultimate + fossilize/whip combo as their burst while stam DK uses heavy attack into ultimate or cc into ultimate (to proc exploiter in CP tree).

pieratsos · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst. But ohhh, DK need to be an exception or what ? No, Dk can rely on ults for burst just like all other classes do. Stop thinking that you should be special. You cannot kill a good player without an ult, that's very unlikely at least. Ults are always the key. You can't expect your dots to do all the work for you. Whip spam won't kill anyone, you need stuns and ults.

Since you seem to refuse these, I am no surprised that you are plagued with failure, because you refuse to open your mind.
It could be a lack of experience at your end, because you probably only play in groups and lack the needed understanding. Solo players however, know these issues very well.

Come on. You cant possibly compare the burst potential from sorcs and NBs with a power lash of a DK that cant even spec into dmg in the first place. Sorcs and NBs will have their chance to get kills if they outplay people and will use their ult (whatever ult that may be) to make sure they get a kill with a ton of dmg. DKs in most cases (even when they outplay people) cant get kills unless they specifically use that cheesy fossilise meteor combo cause it basically has no counterplay. Yeah if u fill ur bars with dots u can put enough pressure to kill them but thats nearly impossible to do in open world. They can only do that in duels when they dont need mist form, inhale etc and people just wont run away from them (and the fact that burning embers is actually a reliable heal in duels). Thats why they are good in duels but the difference between duels and open world is like day and night for DKs.

DKs may not need more dmg. But what they do need is changes to help their playstyle so they can invest more into dmg. Right now they cant just go full out dmg with 45-50k magicka. They have to spec into hp and stamina and fill their bars with defensive/utility abilities so its inevitable that they just cant do enough dmg in open world. Now that they finally get a decent heal you come here to tell them that it may be overpowered because the dumpster they have on live can be good on a useless hp tank build that does absolutely nothing other than tank and that they can also shieldstack as well with their 4-5k dmg shield. Im sure you wouldnt like it either if they made hardened ward scaling of ur max hp and u needed 30k+ hp to have the same survivability u have now and also crippling ur dmg in the process. In fact, sorcs already sort of experience that scenario when they go up against DKs in duels cause wings can cripple their dmg. And thats why we see all these sorcs complaining about OP DKs in forums. But what all of these sorcs fail to realise, is that what you experience in a duel against a DK, the DK has to go through against every single class in open world all day long.

silverhammer92 · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@silverhammer92
I disagree with sorcs burst being an ultimate since they have curse or now it's called haunting something that hits twice through block nonetheless lol. NBs at-least for stam has incredible burst with just their abilities alone while Magblades tend to use that curse soft cc move (name skips me lol) which does pretty good damage. Templars lol well mag wise they've got heals for days that at times can negate damage but if they're a 5 light build I can almost always get them especially with the changes of RD (which imo shouldn't have happened). Mag DK uses an ultimate + fossilize/whip combo as their burst while stam DK uses heavy attack into ultimate or cc into ultimate (to proc exploiter in CP tree).

What exactly do you want to say? I agree that sorcs have a very high burst potential without ult, but for "hard-to-kill"players they will still use a ult.
Stamsorcs have a lot of pressure with hurricane, a dot which cannot be clensed. To finish a "hard-to-kill"player they also rely on a ult.
Nightblade - well, the burst potential is definitely here, but both, magicka and stamina nb use a ult for their burst.

I agree that they all can pressure a player without using an ult, but for experienced players it needs a little bit more - it needs an ult...

Is it possible we are both saying the same? lol

Kilandros · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst. But ohhh, DK need to be an exception or what ? No, Dk can rely on ults for burst just like all other classes do. Stop thinking that you should be special. You cannot kill a good player without an ult, that's very unlikely at least. Ults are always the key. You can't expect your dots to do all the work for you. Whip spam won't kill anyone, you need stuns and ults.

Since you seem to refuse these, I am no surprised that you are plagued with failure, because you refuse to open your mind.
It could be a lack of experience at your end, because you probably only play in groups and lack the needed understanding. Solo players however, know these issues very well.

Just stop. Please just stop.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@silverhammer92
I'm saying that the class doesn't directly rely on an ultimate for a burst kill, they have their class skills for that*

MaxwellC · January 2017

@Kilandros
I couldn't agree with you more, I mean the ignorance man... it's too strong. I know I'm being pretty aggressive/mean but it's like come on. I gave her the benefit of the doubt at the start but then it's like a sinking ship; I think it's time for her to abandon it.

MaxwellC · January 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lava Whip: Increased the damage from this ability and its morphs by 5%.
Dragon Blood: This ability and its morphs can now Critically Strike
Coagulating Blood: This morph now heals for a flat value (scaling with Spell Damage and Max Magicka), with that heal being increased by up to 33% based on your missing health.
Green Dragon Blood (Dragon Blood morph): This morph now grants the Minor Vitality buff as well as Minor Endurance. (minor vitality not really needed but minor endurance is a great change although for tanking I would've preferred minor intellect or major intellect).
Ferocious Leap: This morph now deals Flame Damage instead of Physical Damage.
Hardened Armor: Increased the damage shield value granted by this morph to 15% of your Maximum Health from 10% of your Maximum Health. (Is a buff but not needed imo)
Volatile Armor: Increased the damage of the Damage over Time component of this morph by approximately 20%.
Dragon Leap: This ability and its morphs can now be cast while are you immobilized. Great change right here.

These are all the buffs we received this patch. There's still nothing regarding sustain, out dated passives (as in they need to be brought up to where the game stands now), pressuring damage abilities, and our player based AoE (flames of Oblivion).

There was nothing in regards to standard of might being brought back to 200 while shifting goes back to 150 nor has there been any mention to actually making the ultimate something unique by having it apply a 50% defile on enemies within it (like it used to be).

DoTs have yet to be addressed in this patch (except for volatile armor) which is most likely the final patch till it hits live. That then means damage wise nothing other than volatile armor, flame whip, and ferocious leap has been changed.

All in all I'm still waiting for that time we'll get a reduction in our pricey Mag skills or when we will finally get Flames of Oblivion AoE. what I really want also is brand new skills (two per each sub class) My stam dk could maybe get 1 or 2 skills to use consistently too since heavy attack animation canceling gets old petty quickly.

Stamden · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lava Whip: Increased the damage from this ability and its morphs by 5%.
Dragon Blood: This ability and its morphs can now Critically Strike
Coagulating Blood: This morph now heals for a flat value (scaling with Spell Damage and Max Magicka), with that heal being increased by up to 33% based on your missing health.
Green Dragon Blood (Dragon Blood morph): This morph now grants the Minor Vitality buff as well as Minor Endurance. (minor vitality not really needed but minor endurance is a great change although for tanking I would've preferred minor intellect or major intellect).
Ferocious Leap: This morph now deals Flame Damage instead of Physical Damage.
Hardened Armor: Increased the damage shield value granted by this morph to 15% of your Maximum Health from 10% of your Maximum Health. (Is a buff but not needed imo)
Volatile Armor: Increased the damage of the Damage over Time component of this morph by approximately 20%.
Dragon Leap: This ability and its morphs can now be cast while are you immobilized. Great change right here.

These are all the buffs we received this patch. There's still nothing regarding sustain, out dated passives (as in they need to be brought up to where the game stands now), pressuring damage abilities, and our player based AoE (flames of Oblivion).

There was nothing in regards to standard of might being brought back to 200 while shifting goes back to 150 nor has there been any mention to actually making the ultimate something unique by having it apply a 50% defile on enemies within it (like it used to be).

DoTs have yet to be addressed in this patch (except for volatile armor) which is most likely the final patch till it hits live. That then means damage wise nothing other than volatile armor, flame whip, and ferocious leap has been changed.

All in all I'm still waiting for that time we'll get a reduction in our pricey Mag skills or when we will finally get Flames of Oblivion AoE. what I really want also is brand new skills (two per each sub class) My stam dk could maybe get 1 or 2 skills to use consistently too since heavy attack animation canceling gets old petty quickly.

Yeah this is the sad truth though. They haven't actually fixed any of our problems. Pretty much all of these "buffs" aside from Coag have little to no actual gameplay impact. Meanwhile the best mDK sets (Desert Rose and Trainee) got completely gutted and are useless. Heavy armor got it's resource management nerfed, which is great because DKs are pigeonholed into going heavy. And Wings are now the most useless ability in the game. Oh and for some reason they nerfed standard too but left the cost at the ridiculous 250 amount.

Best case scenario is that mDKs end up where they are now on live. More likely though, mDKs end up being even worse next patch because of all the indirect nerfs. If they don't make some serious changes (of which I've pointed out many times on what they need to do), then I seriously don't see how ZoS can expect DK players to continue playing and remain hopeful. This patch was supposed to fix DKs. Please don't let us down again ZoS.

Lokey0024 · January 2017

Please, please please lower the duration of DK dots and leave the damage close to the same. Make them actually hurt instead of just a small bother unless there are 7 running at the same time.

Veg · January 2017

Overall the change have been "good". Magic dragon knights in pvp needed more than "good" changes. I cant really speak for pve but they seem to be on par or just slightly not as good as the other magic classes so not much concern there.

Our fundamental class design hasn't changed since 2014 but our core mechanics have. Dynamic ult gen, stamina regen while blocking and undodgeable attacks have all gone away. Yet none of our passives or abilities have changed accordingly. This is why very few people play magic dragon knights for pvp.

We are the most difficult class to learn and not the most rewarding. In the current "meta" in open world pvp, burst damage and quick movement mechanics dominate everything else. We have the worst of these mechanics.

Dragon leap is the answer to our missing burst damage and its sooooo god damn close to being there its driving me crazy. Since our class has 0 movement mechanics we can rely on out tankyness to get by. This should not mean that we can only tank. This should mean that we have be smart to be able to fight like a stam sorc can. But right now on live it means we can only tank.

I dont want mDKs flying around the map and popping people with 15k dawnbreakers. I want to see skilled game play rewarded. Even with the new dragon blood being great its simply not viable to use due to our ability costs and lack of a way to get magic back.

We need to use 1h and shield so our heavy attacks give us 0 magic. This is huge. This is sooo important. We also cannot disengage from the enemy to get resources back because we have no movement mechanics.

The solution to our lack of sustain is to lower the cost of key defensive abilities like dragon blood, but leaving the cost of high damaging abilities like flame lash and updating battle roar to give more of the required resource. (in our case magic).

Im happy with the changes we got but i feel we've missed out on an amazing opportunity to get the class back on its feet.

Derra · January 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Dragonblood was overbuffed in my opinion.
DKs will be even harder to defeat than templars with this outer space buff. Remember, that the 33% health addition is still missing at rank IV. I think it's ridiculous, I never understood all the trouble with dragonblood.

We'll see how it goes. But I think, DKs could be completely unkillable now. Imagine if force shock was still reflectable.... how would you ever hope to stand a chance.
Sorcerer never deserved a burst heal (Twilight Matriarch) Sorcerer was tanky enough with conjured hard, being unable to restore health fast was their weak spot. Neither does DK deserve or even need a burst heal, that's completely unbalanced.
Waiting for Nightblade burst heal.....

Have you even looked at any of the numbers? Coag is like a 3.5k-4k heal in Cyro for builds that are optimized for it. It is slightly better than the one on live. Jeeze people are overexaggerating the hell out of this buff.

I can critheal for 10 to 11k on my DK with rank1 coagulated blood on low health - in cyrodiil obviously.

Not bad - stats?

38k magica, 2900 spelldmg (bsw procced - makes about 800 difference in tooltip), 43% spellcrit
30% major mending active
12% healincrease burning heart active
8% heavy armor
2.2% outgoing heals 6.3 incoming heals 21.6% crithealing/dmg

Setup was slapped together as i don´t play the class actively and was merely interested in the healing potential.
5 Blackrose 5 bsw 1 kena 1 grothdarr

Most likely going to be lower on a more sustain oriented setup (as i admit i don´t play the class - so i have no idea about working setups - but i only interested in seing the actual healing potential (where not having the skill leveled came in handy).

KaiDynasty · January 2017

Really, i play 2 classes good in pvp (dk and sorc), and the difference is deep. I don't understand why a sorc complain a mDK, really, if you lose as mag sorc against a dk is because you don't know how to fight him.
Shield stacks and mines counter a dk 100% of times, wings were already bugged, and now they are totally useles in open world, and in a duel, what can we do against a sorc? root him? a sorc with brain just shield stack while rooted, and this say a lot on our chance to hurt a sorc.
As sorc, we can burst an enemy doing a combo that is basic, really, 3 skills against 4/5 i have to use on my dk to do an amount of damage that is weaker..
I hate players that complain other classes because they can't handle them without use a brain. If you want complain a class, make a thread, this is a feedback thread, so everyone useles, GTFO.

Sugaroverdose · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I think Dragonblood will be fine.

As for being harder to kill then a Templar? Nah

DK don't have the resource sustain and Purging Abilities Templars have...Channel Focus + Minor Magicka Steaal +Constitution = endless magicka pretty much.

DK will be slightly better damage dealers though thanks to the Whip Buff and the Change to Ferious Leap it will be easier for DK to kill people.

As a Templar/Sorc(I have a DK for PVE) making Force Shock unreflectable was dumb. A Sorc fighting a DK now its his fight to lose not the DK fight to win. All the Sorc has to do is keep Harness up and wait for an opportunity to slip Frags in between Wings now that Curse can't be blocked. Folks that have trouble open world as a Sorc againt Magic DK really need to learn how to play

Look at this fight right here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pts-Rd29Rbw

Its the same now....a Sorc vs DKits the Sorcs fight to lose not the DK fight to win....at equal skill a Mag Sorc will kill aMag DK 9 out of 10 times....those saying otherwise just don't know how to Sorc...Mines is so OP against a DK who all their damage is melee, combined with a huge shield stack and DK only having DOTS a Sorc can't simply face tank with impunity until his opportunity opens up to Curse +Frag + Fury you between wings while you try adn wade though his Mines.

Force Shock should not be unreflectable, and Dragon Knight Wings needs fixed. DK deserve a decent chance to beat an equally skil mag sorc in a fight....

In that video even an Emp who is a pretty good player simply couldn't win....

@RinaldoGandolphi

Then you haven't met DKs who don't play annoying turtle tanks, but DKs who play actual damage builds, probably even in light armor and who know how to burst (which they can) and then happy B day if you happen to be Vampire.

DKs have the upper hand, because they can pressure so much, that the Sorc is forced to go full defense. A DK can only loose when THEY do a mistake. Mines are completely overrated, also because melee attacks have an 8 meters range.
Now with the force shock change, this might change and make it more even between the 2, because Sorc had 0 offense against wings DKs.

Shieldstacking is broken, but DKs can stack just the same if they wish. Everyone can, but nobody relies on it like Sorcs do.
However, I think shieldstacking must go.

They pressure so much, that magsorc start to shieldstack until dk get out of magicka becoming easy target, don't forget whip cost a lot, wings cost a lot, cDB cost a lot, every f thing is cost so much that magdk in 1v1 can be outplayed just by healing+hardened ward add sorc shield, and bam - you better than mdk whatever awesome he is, he have no executes to drop your shields down fast, and he's only burst damage is power lash which can be procked once per 4 seconds. So mDK is good only when he have someone who have strong execute, like magplar. With overall mdk and mdk-related sets nerf it most definitely there's will be twice less openworld mDK cause it's already wasn't that easy to survive on them, now it will be even harder, noone likes to play the game where your class is completely outplayed by design.

Dracane · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Since you seem to refuse these, I am no surprised that you are plagued with failure, because you refuse to open your mind.
It could be a lack of experience at your end, because you probably only play in groups and lack the needed understanding. Solo players however, know these issues very well.

See right there, I was giving you a pass since you obviously do not play a Mag DK consistently and I definitely doubt you even have one but that's another story. Your assumption on how I play is funny, I don't play my Mag DK open PvP a lot because well I only play solo (clarify: I cannot run my mag dk solo as it sucks while my stam dk can dodge for days). If you play XBL NA go to Haderus or scourge and I'm sure a few people recognize my gamertag just ask them if I'm ever in a group (It'll be a resounding NO).

Mag DK has an ultimate as it's burst that's the point uhh Mag NB has extremely strong skills like sap essence and sorc well you can use your curse and follow up with your mines/shield stack for days. On top of that you seem to feel that talons and fossilize are some cheap skill that we can continuously use in order to kill the opponent please stop I guess you don't play PvP and fight someone using immovable pots. I cannot keep spamming my whip that hits like a noodle depending if I can proc a power lash or not, I cannot rely on DoTs since sorcs like yourself shield stack to no end while others heal through it and purge/purify it.

Don't come to this thread spreading your 1v1 balance ideas because as I stated YOU DO NOT DETERMINE BALANCE ON 1V1 <--Read it again so it sticks to you.

If you feel that struggle solo please come to Xbox as in my sig it shows my mag DK has been long retired (at Praetorian rank CP around 240 or so but was that at v14). My XBL stam DK is practically a legate while my Mag is almost a praetorian as well, I'd love to show you how much I "struggle".

Here's an example why I wouldn't go solo Mag DK because well my Stam DK can get away like this http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Maxwell/video/25939311

I know, the game shouldn't be balanced around 1v1. And this is not exactly what I had in mind.
DK is one thing in 1v1 (where it is and many will confirm this, one of the best classes you could have) But DKs are especially efficient in groups, though I guess everyone is 300% more efficient in groups

So what should we DK balance around ? Appearently not 1v1, not even XvX ? I suppose you are asking for 1vx buffs. But these buffs will most likely affect their potency in 1v1s and groups and that's not needed at all. Maybe you understand what I'm up to.

Armitas · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst.

They use them because they are ultimate's and every class has them. We use them because that is typically our only kill mechanic. The last skill on my death log is rarely any of these, it is a either an execute or a main attack right beside it because other classes are able to pull off offense and survival at the same time. They derive their survival from the same sources as their damage, like hardened ward, or BoL, or cloak. Ours are perpendicular, like our health based shield, or our health based heal. All we have is meteor for our kill mechanic, part of which gets shielded by our own CC.

On top of all that, our ultimates are our source of sustain. We have to withhold our sustain for a meteor combo, which becomes difficult with resource poisons and when we do cast our ultimate we are only refunded the cost of the ultimate, not the extra ultimate we gained while withholding it.

Dracane · January 2017

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst.

They use them because they are ultimate's and every class has them. We use them because that is typically our only kill mechanic. The last skill on my death log is rarely any of these, it is a either an execute or a main attack right beside it because other classes are able to pull off offense and survival at the same time. They derive their survival from the same sources as their damage, like hardened ward, or BoL, or cloak. Ours are perpendicular, like our health based shield, or our health based heal. All we have is meteor for our kill mechanic, part of which gets shielded by our own CC.

On top of all that, our ultimates are our source of sustain. We have to withhold our sustain for a meteor combo, which becomes difficult with resource poisons and when we do cast our ultimate we are only refunded the cost of the ultimate, not the extra ultimate we gained while withholding it.

But ultimates are the key to achieve that. They don't always do the killing blow, but they prepare it.
And soon, mag dk can actually be quite mobile during combat with fiery chain. Not only due to the speed buff, but also because you could bounce between enemies, and it also empoweres your next hit.

It's easier said than done, I played around with it on the pts. But maybe after some time.
I was waiting for them to buff chains, that was a key element for my build.

RinaldoGandolphi · January 2017

@Dracane

I think DK will be better then they are now, but unreflectable Force Shock i think tips the favor too much towards Sorcs. Sorcs already have a big advantage now...just Camp Mines, Shield up, and wait...a DK will eventually run out of resources wailing on your shields in futility and you will be able kill him.

Im not a fan of no counterplay. DK don't have hardly any ranged attacks, so them having a Reflect makes since...now Sorcs are going to be able to Camp Mines, Shield up, spam Force Shock that can't be reflected and Curse with Lighting staff attacks at a Mag DK and there really won't be much the DK can do about it, and I don't think thats good. The Reflect gave the DK some counter-play and make the Sorc have to finesse in his Frags and stuff between Wings which was skillful play. A DK can't keep wings up 100% of the time due to cost, being patient will give you your opportunity.

I am not a fan of Mindless skill spamming with no counterplay. I don't like that Meteor is not reflectable anymore, I don't like that Double Reflect is no longer possible...I like skilled counterplay and ESO keeps removing more and more of it every patch.Force Shock no longer reflect is just encouraging more mindless spamming of skills instead of skilled gameplay.

I agree, Shield stacking is OP something needs done about it, and the game probably shouldn't be balanced based on 1v1.

I played a Desto/Resto Light Armor Dunmer magic DK..it was ok in a group and against Magic Builds,(Not Sorcs) but post TG it was not viable against the majority of Stam Builds in Cyrodiil. Melee Magic DPS(at that time) was not comparable to Stam melee DPS and in Light Armor without Sword and Board you get shreded.(Even with Dampen+Healing + Igneous Shield I ended up as a Tanky Sword and Board Talon Spammer with the occassional Draw Essense Dragon Leap/Standard....going Light Armor DPS on Mag DK just had terrible survivability in light without sword and board.

In duals it may be alright, but in zergodiil no way.

If the patch stays as is, Sorc will still have a one up on Mag DK even with the heal. MagDK will br a better zergbuster for sure, and thats a good thing.

Stamden · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst.

They use them because they are ultimate's and every class has them. We use them because that is typically our only kill mechanic. The last skill on my death log is rarely any of these, it is a either an execute or a main attack right beside it because other classes are able to pull off offense and survival at the same time. They derive their survival from the same sources as their damage, like hardened ward, or BoL, or cloak. Ours are perpendicular, like our health based shield, or our health based heal. All we have is meteor for our kill mechanic, part of which gets shielded by our own CC.

On top of all that, our ultimates are our source of sustain. We have to withhold our sustain for a meteor combo, which becomes difficult with resource poisons and when we do cast our ultimate we are only refunded the cost of the ultimate, not the extra ultimate we gained while withholding it.

But ultimates are the key to achieve that. They don't always do the killing blow, but they prepare it.
And soon, mag dk can actually be quite mobile during combat with fiery chain. Not only due to the speed buff, but also because you could bounce between enemies, and it also empoweres your next hit.

It's easier said than done, I played around with it on the pts. But maybe after some time.
I was waiting for them to buff chains, that was a key element for my build.

Chains are still broken and don't work half the time.

Armitas · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst.

They use them because they are ultimate's and every class has them. We use them because that is typically our only kill mechanic. The last skill on my death log is rarely any of these, it is a either an execute or a main attack right beside it because other classes are able to pull off offense and survival at the same time. They derive their survival from the same sources as their damage, like hardened ward, or BoL, or cloak. Ours are perpendicular, like our health based shield, or our health based heal. All we have is meteor for our kill mechanic, part of which gets shielded by our own CC.

On top of all that, our ultimates are our source of sustain. We have to withhold our sustain for a meteor combo, which becomes difficult with resource poisons and when we do cast our ultimate we are only refunded the cost of the ultimate, not the extra ultimate we gained while withholding it.

But ultimates are the key to achieve that. They don't always do the killing blow, but they prepare it.
And soon, mag dk can actually be quite mobile during combat with fiery chain. Not only due to the speed buff, but also because you could bounce between enemies, and it also empoweres your next hit.

It's easier said than done, I played around with it on the pts. But maybe after some time.
I was waiting for them to buff chains, that was a key element for my build.

I have always used chains, the buff to them will be good against stamina builds but it will be "unchainged" against sorcs because it can easily take you through too many mines at once. There is also a very real chance that it will not fire due to the Z axis. When that happens the bug latches and will not fire for a good while. It's also very slow to get a server response when fighting a group. You cast it and nothing happens for about 2 seconds and then you go flying into a situation too late for effect. The animation phase is also very long making it clunky to combo it with a follow up whip (it's not smooth and short like spambush). It will still be one of the worst gap closers even though its greatly improved.

I wouldn't start playing dk just from that change. Its still very messed up.

Anti_Virus · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Dragonblood was overbuffed in my opinion.
DKs will be even harder to defeat than templars with this outer space buff. Remember, that the 33% health addition is still missing at rank IV. I think it's ridiculous, I never understood all the trouble with dragonblood.

We'll see how it goes. But I think, DKs could be completely unkillable now. Imagine if force shock was still reflectable.... how would you ever hope to stand a chance.
Sorcerer never deserved a burst heal (Twilight Matriarch) Sorcerer was tanky enough with conjured hard, being unable to restore health fast was their weak spot. Neither does DK deserve or even need a burst heal, that's completely unbalanced.
Waiting for Nightblade burst heal.....

Sounds like Your sorc class will finally have to try no more easy mode for you now.

NBrookus · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

But ultimates are the key to achieve that. They don't always do the killing blow, but they prepare it.
And soon, mag dk can actually be quite mobile during combat with fiery chain. Not only due to the speed buff, but also because you could bounce between enemies, and it also empoweres your next hit.

It's easier said than done, I played around with it on the pts. But maybe after some time.
I was waiting for them to buff chains, that was a key element for my build.

With no execute and rally/dodge/vigor or healing ward/hardened ward or BoL or cloak, you can't "prepare" for a killing blow on mDK. Your ult has to be part of the death combo.

As for chains, I wish you luck. They still don't work at least half the time. Until the z axis issues are fixed, using a skill slot for a skill that doesn't work is not my cup of tea.

pieratsos · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Since you seem to refuse these, I am no surprised that you are plagued with failure, because you refuse to open your mind.
It could be a lack of experience at your end, because you probably only play in groups and lack the needed understanding. Solo players however, know these issues very well.

See right there, I was giving you a pass since you obviously do not play a Mag DK consistently and I definitely doubt you even have one but that's another story. Your assumption on how I play is funny, I don't play my Mag DK open PvP a lot because well I only play solo (clarify: I cannot run my mag dk solo as it sucks while my stam dk can dodge for days). If you play XBL NA go to Haderus or scourge and I'm sure a few people recognize my gamertag just ask them if I'm ever in a group (It'll be a resounding NO).

Mag DK has an ultimate as it's burst that's the point uhh Mag NB has extremely strong skills like sap essence and sorc well you can use your curse and follow up with your mines/shield stack for days. On top of that you seem to feel that talons and fossilize are some cheap skill that we can continuously use in order to kill the opponent please stop I guess you don't play PvP and fight someone using immovable pots. I cannot keep spamming my whip that hits like a noodle depending if I can proc a power lash or not, I cannot rely on DoTs since sorcs like yourself shield stack to no end while others heal through it and purge/purify it.

Don't come to this thread spreading your 1v1 balance ideas because as I stated YOU DO NOT DETERMINE BALANCE ON 1V1 <--Read it again so it sticks to you.

If you feel that struggle solo please come to Xbox as in my sig it shows my mag DK has been long retired (at Praetorian rank CP around 240 or so but was that at v14). My XBL stam DK is practically a legate while my Mag is almost a praetorian as well, I'd love to show you how much I "struggle".

Here's an example why I wouldn't go solo Mag DK because well my Stam DK can get away like this http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Maxwell/video/25939311

I know, the game shouldn't be balanced around 1v1. And this is not exactly what I had in mind.
DK is one thing in 1v1 (where it is and many will confirm this, one of the best classes you could have) But DKs are especially efficient in groups, though I guess everyone is 300% more efficient in groups

So what should we DK balance around ? Appearently not 1v1, not even XvX ? I suppose you are asking for 1vx buffs. But these buffs will most likely affect their potency in 1v1s and groups and that's not needed at all. Maybe you understand what I'm up to.

So the buff to dragonblood will make DKs better in 1v1 even tho healing was not a problem in 1v1 cause of burning embers and the nerf to scales which was basically the key skill to lock down sorcs will not affect 1v1. Lol. Go back and read the last sentence of my last comment before posting crap like that. Sorcs are monsters in groups (much better than DKs), small scale, solo and 1v1 yet i dont see you anywhere being worried about curse, destro changes, unreflectable crushing shock and buffs to pets. Why is that ? Because you are a sorc?

cpuScientist · January 2017

LOL!!!

Stamden · January 2017

Judging from the balance discussion on ESO live.. it sounds like they are done with DK lol. I guess they looked at all the DK feedback and were like "Yep, they seem content". DO THEY NOT READ ANYTHING WE POST?

MaxwellC · January 2017

Nah they read it but just think it's fine; It's ok to be the weakest class in PvP and only be strong when it's single target (for stam DK). Looks like we won't be getting any balance changes for sustain, passive reworks, or any other changes based on feedback like Flames of Oblivion.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel
Thanks for some changes but that was like 10% out of the 90% you guys should've done (IMO). What happened to DoTs pressuring enemies @Wrobel what happened to standing our ground @ZOS_RichLambert We lost skills that aided the 'stand your ground' play. You given sorcerers the only stand your ground ability stam DKs would use but you also got rid of the stand your ground ability that Mag DKs utilized (Cinder storm major evasion).

If you want this class to just sit there and take hits then say it already, I'm tired of heavy attack animation canceling with my Stam DK for kills and I'm tired of trying to kill a Mag sorc wasting all my resources while fighting 2 to 3 shields at times.

Veg · January 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

If you guys have any intentions left for mDK's in the last week of the pts I hope you think back to the videos I made.

1(one) single tiny minuscule almost unnoticeable offensive buff

Anything. We don't care at this point. We know it wont be F-leap doing extra damage or FoB doing AoE damage. Do something. Literally any ability. Give it any offensive buff you can think of.

We are stuck in a state of mediocrity. We cannot excel in pvp like other classes. So now were asking for literally anything. We've given up on coming up with solutions. We've tried everything. So now all we can do is hope...

Links to mDK pts videos:

https://youtu.be/shM39-f89AQ

https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

Toc de Malsvi · January 2017

I really don't believe we will see any new changes at this point. They are fully engaged in trying to implement the latest changes.