PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

Riggsy

Veg wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

If you guys have any intentions left for mDK's in the last week of the pts I hope you think back to the videos I made.

1(one) single tiny minuscule almost unnoticeable offensive buff

Anything. We don't care at this point. We know it wont be F-leap doing extra damage or FoB doing AoE damage. Do something. Literally any ability. Give it any offensive buff you can think of.

We are stuck in a state of mediocrity. We cannot excel in pvp like other classes. So now were asking for literally anything. We've given up on coming up with solutions. We've tried everything. So now all we can do is hope...

Links to mDK pts videos: https://youtu.be/shM39-f89AQ https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

At least you GOT mag buffs, stam DKs got *** on with nothing but a nerf to standard.

Kilandros

Riggsy wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

If you guys have any intentions left for mDK's in the last week of the pts I hope you think back to the videos I made.

1(one) single tiny minuscule almost unnoticeable offensive buff

Anything. We don't care at this point. We know it wont be F-leap doing extra damage or FoB doing AoE damage. Do something. Literally any ability. Give it any offensive buff you can think of.

We are stuck in a state of mediocrity. We cannot excel in pvp like other classes. So now were asking for literally anything. We've given up on coming up with solutions. We've tried everything. So now all we can do is hope...

Links to mDK pts videos: https://youtu.be/shM39-f89AQ https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

At least you GOT mag buffs, stam DKs got *** on with nothing but a nerf to standard.

What's wrong with Stam DKs?

MaxwellC

@Kilandros
Well PvE wise I'd say we're still doing good at-least when it comes to single target fights since we have no decent class AoE but PvP wise oh boy... that's a different story.

If you're a Stam DK like myself and do not play the meta i.e. Heavy armor sword n board with proc sets then you will also experience the same thing I do. I run zero proc sets as a Stam DK because I feel they lack skill but as a result all my kills have me using Heavy attacks into animation cancels. I have to spam dizzing swing sometimes as my main form of DPS as any other class skill sucks especially noxious breath which debuffs do not apply more than half the time while the damage it provides is borderline pathetic and mediocre

I wanted flames of oblivion to go to an AoE for PvE and PvP purposes where I could finally provided consistent pressure while doing the same old HAtk animation cancel..

Kilandros

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Kilandros
Well PvE wise I'd say we're still doing good at-least when it comes to single target fights since we have no decent class AoE but PvP wise oh boy... that's a different story.

If you're a Stam DK like myself and do not play the meta i.e. Heavy armor sword n board with proc sets then you will also experience the same thing I do. I run zero proc sets as a Stam DK because I feel they lack skill but as a result all my kills have me using Heavy attacks into animation cancels. I have to spam dizzing swing sometimes as my main form of DPS as any other class skill sucks especially noxious breath which debuffs do not apply more than half the time while the damage it provides is borderline pathetic and mediocre

I wanted flames of oblivion to go to an AoE for PvE and PvP purposes where I could finally provided consistent pressure while doing the same old HAtk animation cancel..

With the exception of Stamplar (and to some degree, including Stamplar), all of the 2H stamina classes rely on Dizzying Swing in PvP though. Stam DK is a beast in PvP. The biggest problem facing Stam DK is simply that the meta has shifted to magicka for group play because of Destro ult. But Stam in smallscale and 1vX scenarios is still very much meta.

Stamden

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Kilandros
Well PvE wise I'd say we're still doing good at-least when it comes to single target fights since we have no decent class AoE but PvP wise oh boy... that's a different story.

If you're a Stam DK like myself and do not play the meta i.e. Heavy armor sword n board with proc sets then you will also experience the same thing I do. I run zero proc sets as a Stam DK because I feel they lack skill but as a result all my kills have me using Heavy attacks into animation cancels. I have to spam dizzing swing sometimes as my main form of DPS as any other class skill sucks especially noxious breath which debuffs do not apply more than half the time while the damage it provides is borderline pathetic and mediocre

I wanted flames of oblivion to go to an AoE for PvE and PvP purposes where I could finally provided consistent pressure while doing the same old HAtk animation cancel..

Yeah nobody has really said much about Stam DKs but they are actually getting hit super hard this patch. Unlike other stam classes, they rely completely on fully charged heavy attacks for burst and sustain. Rapid Mending getting cut in half hurts really, really bad.

Noxious Breath/Engulfing Flames needs to be recoded or something because it is so unreliable. It is also just a pretty underwhelming ability in terms of damage. Fiery Breath could really use a raw damage buff if they want to make DKs a more DoT oriented class.

And of course, lack of AoE needs to be mentioned for PvE and PvP purposes. If Inferno was AoE and had a stam morph, it would be ideal, but it looks like we are not getting it this patch. Judging by the dev's lack of response on this subject, I don't think we're ever getting our inferno back.

MaxwellC

@Kilandros
Stam DK is only a beast when it comes to relying on the meta(Heavy armor with proc sets) but 2h to bow vs another class it falls behind. Yeah all stamina classes that use a 2H obviously rely on dizzing swing but stamplar has that circle that slows you, stam sorc has hurricane, and nightblades well they have the best burst damage in PvP for stamina.

Anti_Virus

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Kilandros
Stam DK is only a beast when it comes to relying on the meta(Heavy armor with proc sets) but 2h to bow vs another class it falls behind. Yeah all stamina classes that use a 2H obviously rely on dizzing swing but stamplar has that circle that slows you, stam sorc has hurricane, and nightblades well they have the best burst damage in PvP for stamina.

All other stam classes got somthing good and we got just two dots....

As a Heavy armor stam dk this sucks, I don't wear proc sets yet I get shafted. And if I ask for improvements it will immediately get criticized simply because im a stam DK.

kookster

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Kilandros
Well PvE wise I'd say we're still doing good at-least when it comes to single target fights since we have no decent class AoE but PvP wise oh boy... that's a different story.

If you're a Stam DK like myself and do not play the meta i.e. Heavy armor sword n board with proc sets then you will also experience the same thing I do. I run zero proc sets as a Stam DK because I feel they lack skill but as a result all my kills have me using Heavy attacks into animation cancels. I have to spam dizzing swing sometimes as my main form of DPS as any other class skill sucks especially noxious breath which debuffs do not apply more than half the time while the damage it provides is borderline pathetic and mediocre

I wanted flames of oblivion to go to an AoE for PvE and PvP purposes where I could finally provided consistent pressure while doing the same old HAtk animation cancel..

I main a stam DK and I do just fine in pvp. Though I would agree that some more enticing abilities from our skill line would be nice. I only use 3 DK abilities cause nothing else is really worth slotting.

MaxwellC

@Anti_Virus
Yup I feel your pain, I don't rock 5 heavy just 5 medium/2 heavy and it's annoying having to keep HAtking/animation canceling for kills. I can try to mix in noxious breath but that does nothing half the time. I can mix in poison injection which I literally have to do all the time to get the kill in the first place but it all depends who I face. If it's a magplar well as long as it's not a tank magplar I can get them but if it's a mag sorc nope. I get shield stacked so hard that I run out of resources even using max health/regen food while they sit there using mines,curse, and frags all while stacking when needed. Stam sorcs get the best sustain ability in the game while getting something that consistently pressures you (which was our ability in the first place!). Stamblades get to leave fight whenever they want and burst you down thanks to extra damage from stealth alongside passives that aid that kind of gameplay. Stamplar has access to purify and the circle that heals them overtime/slows enemies while in it.
Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Anti_Virus

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
Yup I feel your pain, I don't rock 5 heavy just 5 medium/2 heavy and it's annoying having to keep HAtking/animation canceling for kills. I can try to mix in noxious breath but that does nothing half the time. I can mix in poison injection which I literally have to do all the time to get the kill in the first place but it all depends who I face. If it's a magplar well as long as it's not a tank magplar I can get them but if it's a mag sorc nope. I get shield stacked so hard that I run out of resources even using max health/regen food while they sit there using mines,curse, and frags all while stacking when needed. Stam sorcs get the best sustain ability in the game while getting something that consistently pressures you (which was our ability in the first place!). Stamblades get to leave fight whenever they want and burst you down thanks to extra damage from stealth alongside passives that aid that kind of gameplay. Stamplar has access to purify and the circle that heals them overtime/slows enemies while in it.
Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Yeah I want more stamina based AoEs of DKs, Every other stamina class has em but not stam DK, I also want to use more of my class abilities. I think stam NB has like 5 stam morphs and Templar has a few good ones as well, I'd love to use wings, talons, DB etc but the whole stam vs magicka thing ruined it.

OrphanHelgen

Kilandros wrote: »

Riggsy wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

If you guys have any intentions left for mDK's in the last week of the pts I hope you think back to the videos I made.

1(one) single tiny minuscule almost unnoticeable offensive buff

Anything. We don't care at this point. We know it wont be F-leap doing extra damage or FoB doing AoE damage. Do something. Literally any ability. Give it any offensive buff you can think of.

We are stuck in a state of mediocrity. We cannot excel in pvp like other classes. So now were asking for literally anything. We've given up on coming up with solutions. We've tried everything. So now all we can do is hope...

Links to mDK pts videos: https://youtu.be/shM39-f89AQ https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

At least you GOT mag buffs, stam DKs got *** on with nothing but a nerf to standard.

What's wrong with Stam DKs?

Not sure in pvp, but for pve:
They lack aoe and are forced to be melee.
Also the more magicka meta, the less effective are stamina in general. Sets in favor for magicka are a must, and sets in favor for stamina are not being used.
On top of this stealth nerf, they also nerfed stamina in general with dual wield wpn dmg, rearming trap, crits, and standard of might. For pvp, they also changed take flight from physical to flame dmg.

Xvorg

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst. But ohhh, DK need to be an exception or what ? No, Dk can rely on ults for burst just like all other classes do. Stop thinking that you should be special. You cannot kill a good player without an ult, that's very unlikely at least. Ults are always the key. You can't expect your dots to do all the work for you. Whip spam won't kill anyone, you need stuns and ults.

Since you seem to refuse these, I am no surprised that you are plagued with failure, because you refuse to open your mind.
It could be a lack of experience at your end, because you probably only play in groups and lack the needed understanding. Solo players however, know these issues very well.

Many sorcs is not all, while I agree some of them rely on skills outside their class skils (mostly destro)

All mageblades relying on Ulti is a consequence of ZOS inoperance (including not bufing CW, for example)

Stamblades relying on Incap is mostly because of its cost.

mDKs relying on ultis is a consequience of ZOS idea of making healing stronger than DoT, while retaining the "identity" of mDKs as DoT damage dealers.

So, DoTs are there to be used, they are not expensive, but the "burst" skills of any mDK are expensive. Even Whip is the most expensive spammable in this game. With that in mid, how would you play your cards?

Consider that mDK needs HA and/or S/B to get decen mitigation, that slotting a shield is a problem (if you want to use your class sammable, you need talons/petrify also, and that leaves you with other 2 slots available for healing/buffing/debuffing) and that your passives in the offensive line (ardent flame) are exclusive for that line (and are as bad as a cool pizza)

Xvorg

Dracane wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Dracane
You do realize that video shows a regular sorc vs a DK emp right? I mean that was painful and this was back when emp wasn't nerf'd lol. The Mag emp seemed to have ran out of resources but even still mag sorc just shield stacked all through-out it while hiding behind mines (Which is the meta today). Every sorc I've faced hides behind mines and shield stacks and since I'm a DK well stam I've got nothing but heavy attacks with animation cancels while my mag has DoTs that.... well do nothing lol.

The only 'burst' as you've stated Mag Dks have is in regards to using an ultimate like meteor while they fossilize you into a whip. If an ultimate is suppose to be your only burst then it's a sad day for you, I suggest you play a Mag DK open world and tell me how fast you re-log to your sorc. I've now even do not believe you own a Mag DK with these responses, I suggest you play the class whether Mag or Stam (don't rely on proc sets/heavy armor for stam).

I never watch linked videos, I didn't watch this one either.
My post was not a reference to any video, but a referance to what I encounter in game.

Many sorcerers rely on meteor for their burst, all magicka nightblades rely on soul tether for their burst, Nightblades rely on incap strike for their burst.

They use them because they are ultimate's and every class has them. We use them because that is typically our only kill mechanic. The last skill on my death log is rarely any of these, it is a either an execute or a main attack right beside it because other classes are able to pull off offense and survival at the same time. They derive their survival from the same sources as their damage, like hardened ward, or BoL, or cloak. Ours are perpendicular, like our health based shield, or our health based heal. All we have is meteor for our kill mechanic, part of which gets shielded by our own CC.

On top of all that, our ultimates are our source of sustain. We have to withhold our sustain for a meteor combo, which becomes difficult with resource poisons and when we do cast our ultimate we are only refunded the cost of the ultimate, not the extra ultimate we gained while withholding it.

But ultimates are the key to achieve that. They don't always do the killing blow, but they prepare it.
And soon, mag dk can actually be quite mobile during combat with fiery chain. Not only due to the speed buff, but also because you could bounce between enemies, and it also empoweres your next hit.

It's easier said than done, I played around with it on the pts. But maybe after some time.
I was waiting for them to buff chains, that was a key element for my build.

I use chains, but it took me like 6 months to learn when they must be used...

And even with that, they fail.

MaxwellC

@OrphanHelgen
Wait lol they changed take flight too?

Stamden

Anti_Virus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
Yup I feel your pain, I don't rock 5 heavy just 5 medium/2 heavy and it's annoying having to keep HAtking/animation canceling for kills. I can try to mix in noxious breath but that does nothing half the time. I can mix in poison injection which I literally have to do all the time to get the kill in the first place but it all depends who I face. If it's a magplar well as long as it's not a tank magplar I can get them but if it's a mag sorc nope. I get shield stacked so hard that I run out of resources even using max health/regen food while they sit there using mines,curse, and frags all while stacking when needed. Stam sorcs get the best sustain ability in the game while getting something that consistently pressures you (which was our ability in the first place!). Stamblades get to leave fight whenever they want and burst you down thanks to extra damage from stealth alongside passives that aid that kind of gameplay. Stamplar has access to purify and the circle that heals them overtime/slows enemies while in it.
Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Yeah I want more stamina based AoEs of DKs, Every other stamina class has em but not stam DK, I also want to use more of my class abilities. I think stam NB has like 5 stam morphs and Templar has a few good ones as well, I'd love to use wings, talons, DB etc but the whole stam vs magicka thing ruined it.

There are a lot of morphs that would work well as stamina. Some stand out more than others. If Choking Talons were a stam morph that would be really cool in PvP and would give Stam DKs some AoE and utility in PvE. Deep Breath would also fulfill this job but I think Talons would be better.

The most ideal thing would be old Inferno with a stam morph but the chances of that are looking grim. A Talons morph would be the next best thing.

Kilandros

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Riggsy wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

If you guys have any intentions left for mDK's in the last week of the pts I hope you think back to the videos I made.

1(one) single tiny minuscule almost unnoticeable offensive buff

Anything. We don't care at this point. We know it wont be F-leap doing extra damage or FoB doing AoE damage. Do something. Literally any ability. Give it any offensive buff you can think of.

We are stuck in a state of mediocrity. We cannot excel in pvp like other classes. So now were asking for literally anything. We've given up on coming up with solutions. We've tried everything. So now all we can do is hope...

Links to mDK pts videos: https://youtu.be/shM39-f89AQ https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

At least you GOT mag buffs, stam DKs got *** on with nothing but a nerf to standard.

What's wrong with Stam DKs?

Not sure in pvp, but for pve:
They lack aoe and are forced to be melee.
Also the more magicka meta, the less effective are stamina in general. Sets in favor for magicka are a must, and sets in favor for stamina are not being used.
On top of this stealth nerf, they also nerfed stamina in general with dual wield wpn dmg, rearming trap, crits, and standard of might. For pvp, they also changed take flight from physical to flame dmg.

They didn't change Take Flight; they changed Ferocious Leap.

The problem with PvE is that it isn't even remotely competitive outside vMoL. Outside of vMoL, Stamina and Magicka can both burn through pretty much all content and ignore major mechanics. I don't think any class or playstyle needs a buff in PvE because PvE just isn't competitive.

Also, Stamina still reigns supreme in VMA so there is that.

MaxwellC

@Kilandros
Not sure where that 'fact' came from in regards to stam reigning supreme in vMA especially when it first came out only Magicka could clear it in the beginning.

Stamden

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Kilandros
Not sure where that 'fact' came from in regards to stam reigning supreme in vMA especially when it first came out only Magicka could clear it in the beginning.

DK leaderboards are have mostly Stam DKs at the top 10. After that, Stam DK kind of drops off because it's easier to do on magika setup. Getting on DK leaderboard is pretty easy though because all other classes have a much easier time in VMA. Because of this people just farm it on other characters. The score discrepancy between DK and other classes says a lot.

After all the stam nerfs I am pretty sure mag could get higher score post-patch. VMA balance doesn't really matter though imo.

Anti_Virus

Neighbor wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
Yup I feel your pain, I don't rock 5 heavy just 5 medium/2 heavy and it's annoying having to keep HAtking/animation canceling for kills. I can try to mix in noxious breath but that does nothing half the time. I can mix in poison injection which I literally have to do all the time to get the kill in the first place but it all depends who I face. If it's a magplar well as long as it's not a tank magplar I can get them but if it's a mag sorc nope. I get shield stacked so hard that I run out of resources even using max health/regen food while they sit there using mines,curse, and frags all while stacking when needed. Stam sorcs get the best sustain ability in the game while getting something that consistently pressures you (which was our ability in the first place!). Stamblades get to leave fight whenever they want and burst you down thanks to extra damage from stealth alongside passives that aid that kind of gameplay. Stamplar has access to purify and the circle that heals them overtime/slows enemies while in it.
Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Yeah I want more stamina based AoEs of DKs, Every other stamina class has em but not stam DK, I also want to use more of my class abilities. I think stam NB has like 5 stam morphs and Templar has a few good ones as well, I'd love to use wings, talons, DB etc but the whole stam vs magicka thing ruined it.

There are a lot of morphs that would work well as stamina. Some stand out more than others. If Choking Talons were a stam morph that would be really cool in PvP and would give Stam DKs some AoE and utility in PvE. Deep Breath would also fulfill this job but I think Talons would be better.

The most ideal thing would be old Inferno with a stam morph but the chances of that are looking grim. A Talons morph would be the next best thing.

Exactly this, right now stam dk doesn't feel unqiue simply because most of my skills are the same across the board for stam builds.

NBrookus

Neighbor wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Yeah I want more stamina based AoEs of DKs, Every other stamina class has em but not stam DK, I also want to use more of my class abilities. I think stam NB has like 5 stam morphs and Templar has a few good ones as well, I'd love to use wings, talons, DB etc but the whole stam vs magicka thing ruined it.

There are a lot of morphs that would work well as stamina. Some stand out more than others. If Choking Talons were a stam morph that would be really cool in PvP and would give Stam DKs some AoE and utility in PvE. Deep Breath would also fulfill this job but I think Talons would be better.

Choking Talons is very important for PvE tanking. Since stam has access to multiple cheap, hard hitting gap closers, talons is really not essential for stam in pvp.

I could see a revision of the deep breath morphs. The magicka return version is really only helpful in no-CP where magicka sustain issues are even worse. The interrupt version is superior everywhere else. Taking either away from magicka DKs would be painful unless the magicka morph got both perks and the stam morph got more AoE damage maybe.

Xvorg

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
Yup I feel your pain, I don't rock 5 heavy just 5 medium/2 heavy and it's annoying having to keep HAtking/animation canceling for kills. I can try to mix in noxious breath but that does nothing half the time. I can mix in poison injection which I literally have to do all the time to get the kill in the first place but it all depends who I face. If it's a magplar well as long as it's not a tank magplar I can get them but if it's a mag sorc nope. I get shield stacked so hard that I run out of resources even using max health/regen food while they sit there using mines,curse, and frags all while stacking when needed. Stam sorcs get the best sustain ability in the game while getting something that consistently pressures you (which was our ability in the first place!). Stamblades get to leave fight whenever they want and burst you down thanks to extra damage from stealth alongside passives that aid that kind of gameplay. Stamplar has access to purify and the circle that heals them overtime/slows enemies while in it.
Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Yeah I want more stamina based AoEs of DKs, Every other stamina class has em but not stam DK, I also want to use more of my class abilities. I think stam NB has like 5 stam morphs and Templar has a few good ones as well, I'd love to use wings, talons, DB etc but the whole stam vs magicka thing ruined it.

There are a lot of morphs that would work well as stamina. Some stand out more than others. If Choking Talons were a stam morph that would be really cool in PvP and would give Stam DKs some AoE and utility in PvE. Deep Breath would also fulfill this job but I think Talons would be better.

The most ideal thing would be old Inferno with a stam morph but the chances of that are looking grim. A Talons morph would be the next best thing.

Exactly this, right now stam dk doesn't feel unqiue simply because most of my skills are the same across tge board for stam builds.

Stam whip...

PandaIsAPotato

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Exactly this, right now stam dk doesn't feel unqiue simply because most of my skills are the same across tge board for stam builds.

As someone who mained Stam DK after they butchered Mag DK, it doesn't need to feel unique, it has everything in it's toolkit to preform perfectly fine in any situation in PvP. The class itself still needs to be tweaked though, and that in turn could help you, I would also prefer the poison crap to be reverted to flame but asking for straight Stam DK buffs is not the way to go, ask for buffs to the base class, regardless of what spec you play.

MaxwellC

@PandaIsAPotato
I disagree any class should feel unique and not just some reskin of another class. Stam DKs usually utilize 2 to 3 skills and probably 1 ultimate. The skills would be Igneous shield, fossilize, and noxious breath; ultimate wise they'd use corrosive armor.

The only reason why Stam DK does ok is because we can dodge roll and I won't like battle roar does help even though our sustain is terrible. That's all it has that makes it ok to use but any other class more so stamblades/stam sorcs have it easier.

BlackMadara

MaxwellC wrote: »

@PandaIsAPotato
I disagree any class should feel unique and not just some reskin of another class. Stam DKs usually utilize 2 to 3 skills and probably 1 ultimate. The skills would be Igneous shield, fossilize, and noxious breath; ultimate wise they'd use corrosive armor.

The only reason why Stam DK does ok is because we can dodge roll and I won't like battle roar does help even though our sustain is terrible. That's all it has that makes it ok to use but any other class more so stamblades/stam sorcs have it easier.

Skills that are useful on a Stam DK in PvP, imo, are:

Venomous Claw - strong for a dot

Noxious Breath - good for fracture debuff and aoe to pull NB out idlf stealth

Spiked armor morphs- easy access to resolve and ward buffs and draconic power healing passives

Take flight - hard hitting aoe instant damage

Molten weapons morphs - good for access to major brutality, if not using certain weapon skills, or doing a HA gank build

Igneous shield - major mending and minor brutality through passives

Fossilize - unblockable, undodgeable cc and root

Corrosive armor - SHOULD be basically invincible and full armor pen

The reason everyone thinks Stam DK is so good every patch, in PvP, is because DK passives moderately mesh with multiple types of Stamina play styles, with the weapon covering up DK weaknesses. Oh and easy access to major mending.

Things that stam DK gets from each weapon and their passives that matter to that line.

SnB - increased block mitigation, way to transfer magicka to stamina while blocking, access to cheap spammable and minor heroism, stun and gap closer

2h - major mending makes rally much stronger, gap closer, clunky but strong spammable, execute

Bow - HA dmg increase, speed, strong dot

Heavy armor - magicka into stam conversion, major mending, dual resource return for more mag skill use

All in all, I see stam DK as a class that fits well into just about any weapon line, but does not excel at anything. Their burst damage is available to everybody and their healing skills (minus mending) are as well. Stam DK is basically a template for a weapon class. Other classes have more specific stamina utility.

Sorc has buffs to all physical damage, hurricane, implosion, and strong, but stoppable, magicka into stamina conversion

NB has buffs to weapon damage and in class stamina gap closer, spammable, ult, and execute.

Templar has stamina spammable, cc, and ult

DK has two dots and magicka into stamina conversion dependent on max stamina

TLDR, Stam DK had quite a few useful skills in class but are only as strong as weapon and armor skill trees.

Anti_Virus

Xvorg wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
Yup I feel your pain, I don't rock 5 heavy just 5 medium/2 heavy and it's annoying having to keep HAtking/animation canceling for kills. I can try to mix in noxious breath but that does nothing half the time. I can mix in poison injection which I literally have to do all the time to get the kill in the first place but it all depends who I face. If it's a magplar well as long as it's not a tank magplar I can get them but if it's a mag sorc nope. I get shield stacked so hard that I run out of resources even using max health/regen food while they sit there using mines,curse, and frags all while stacking when needed. Stam sorcs get the best sustain ability in the game while getting something that consistently pressures you (which was our ability in the first place!). Stamblades get to leave fight whenever they want and burst you down thanks to extra damage from stealth alongside passives that aid that kind of gameplay. Stamplar has access to purify and the circle that heals them overtime/slows enemies while in it.
Stam DK gets battle roar and igneous shield. Battle roar is outdated and needs to be readjusted and igneous shield costs nearly 5k without any mag reduction.

Yeah I want more stamina based AoEs of DKs, Every other stamina class has em but not stam DK, I also want to use more of my class abilities. I think stam NB has like 5 stam morphs and Templar has a few good ones as well, I'd love to use wings, talons, DB etc but the whole stam vs magicka thing ruined it.

There are a lot of morphs that would work well as stamina. Some stand out more than others. If Choking Talons were a stam morph that would be really cool in PvP and would give Stam DKs some AoE and utility in PvE. Deep Breath would also fulfill this job but I think Talons would be better.

The most ideal thing would be old Inferno with a stam morph but the chances of that are looking grim. A Talons morph would be the next best thing.

Exactly this, right now stam dk doesn't feel unqiue simply because most of my skills are the same across tge board for stam builds.

Stam whip...

Yes plz...

Riggsy

PandaIsAPotato wrote: »

As someone who mained Stam DK after they butchered Mag DK, it doesn't need to feel unique, it has everything in it's toolkit to preform perfectly fine in any situation in PvP. The class itself still needs to be tweaked though, and that in turn could help you, I would also prefer the poison crap to be reverted to flame but asking for straight Stam DK buffs is not the way to go, ask for buffs to the base class, regardless of what spec you play.

Doesnt need to feel unique, really? Then why does every other class get their unique functions? Seriously, absent 3 abilities many stamDK players run non-class skills. Moreover, that "toolkit" is not class based but founded on Vitality pots, malubeth and other sets. And revert to flame? So CP points spent for physical/poison would be useless and require splitting=less damage.The proper solution would be more morphs that cater to stam builds along with reworking the high mag costs for magDKs.

Kilandros

Riggsy wrote: »

PandaIsAPotato wrote: »

As someone who mained Stam DK after they butchered Mag DK, it doesn't need to feel unique, it has everything in it's toolkit to preform perfectly fine in any situation in PvP. The class itself still needs to be tweaked though, and that in turn could help you, I would also prefer the poison crap to be reverted to flame but asking for straight Stam DK buffs is not the way to go, ask for buffs to the base class, regardless of what spec you play.

Doesnt need to feel unique, really? Then why does every other class get their unique functions? Seriously, absent 3 abilities many stamDK players run non-class skills. Moreover, that "toolkit" is not class based but founded on Vitality pots, malubeth and other sets. And revert to flame? So CP points spent for physical/poison would be useless and require splitting=less damage.The proper solution would be more morphs that cater to stam builds along with reworking the high mag costs for magDKs.

This just isn't true. Maybe if you took the time to play Stam DK without cheese sets like Tumorscale you'd be able to see that the Stam DK toolkit (Battle Roar, Major Mending, Minor Brutality, Minor Vitality, just to name a few) is actually quite good. But, that would require you to actually play the class and not just rely on the procs to play for you. Yes, I recognize your name from TF. You run a cancer build - of course you don't appreciate Stam DK's potential because you spam Puncture and hold block all day. I'd be bored too.

I'm guessing you want Stam DK to be the next OP FoTM class like Stam Sorc that just totally relies on various proc abilities while having infinite sustain without compromising damage. No thanks.

MaxwellC

@BlackMadara
Mate this is PvP lol venomous claw = not useful in PvP if you're talking about dueling maybe but sorry not open world Cyrodiil if you think it's good then I doubt you play Stam DK. DoTs don't work in PvP you get shield stacked on, healed through, or just purged/purified so poof.

Noxious Breath - As I stated in this thread before this ability is completely unreliable when it comes to applying the debuff and is not consistent with hitting the opponent because of it's delay upon usage. I did say in the quote that it is useful and before I've stated I only use it for stealth enemies so no need to list an ability that I already said is decent.

Spiked armor - Yeah it would be useful but it depends on how offensive you want to play, in PvP I do not use spiked armor simply because of my mag pool being reserved for resource recovery (using igneous shield multiple times since I run out of stam all too much). You're best off sticking with a major vitality/major resolve pot imo.

Take flight - Nope not good first of all AoE damage is calculated differently where the more enemies hit the less damage it does so that point is invalidated. On top of that you can easily see it coming and dodge it; I'm not sure why anyone would use take flight over Dawn breaker of smiting or Onslaught which hit way harder than take flight.

Molten weapons - Yeah if you're saying this ability (which you most likely mean to say igneous weapons since molten only applies major sorcery and heavy attack bonus) is used a lot in PvP you definitely do not play Stam DK. Why would you use this high costing skill to gain access to major brutality/minor when you can use rally, throwing dagger, or pots to supplement that. You're draining your magicka pool way too much using that and we actually need to use magicka to gain resources and help our healing. So yet another ability that isn't useful in PvP now PvE igneous weapons is a go to thing.

Igneous shield - Already stated this is decent in this thread and listed it as one of the abilities Stam dKs use so it's repetitive to repeat it again. Only issue is it's high cost which is like 4.4k-4.5k magicka with no reduction lol.

Fossilize - Again repetitive as I already stated stam dks would have this slotted more often.

Corrosive armor - Not be basically invincible sorry but if you have debuffs applied to you like defile while getting hit with DoTs you will die eventually lol. Now this ultimate is still pretty good I mean even the video I posted in this thread is testament to that.

No the reason why people think Stam DKs are good is because people believe that every Stam meta benefits this class more than any other when that thinking is false and completely outdated. The only passive people love to point to is battle roar and that passive in its self is completely outdated; People think because you have this passive you're virtually unstoppable when it isn't consistent was it used to be. This passive was not changed nor brought up to par with the current game. The next thing people love to say is helping hands which is 5% of your max stam but unfortunately 5% isn't good enough to run max health/max stam in PvP so you have to literally run max health/stam regen which puts me at 30.5k or so stamina which means I would receive 1525 stamina. 1525 stamina at the expense of 4.4-4.5k magicka is an amazing disparity and in my opinion is completely ridiculous since we were suppose to have the best sustain but look at stam sorcs dark deal.

Block mitigation passive has been reduced and again this is feeding into the meta mind set that players like yourself (as it seems) love to quote everyone can use it and sorry if you read the patch notes we didn't actually get that 8% value or w/e it is in block reduction it was less; now it's being readjusted to reflect the actual value you were getting (4-5%). Even with this is it better than being slowed consistently in a fight... No, Is it better being damaged by a Player based AoE in a fight... No, is it better than being fractured instantly/stunned consistently in a fight...Nope.

Everything else you've stated is something that every other stamina class has access to thus I'm sorry to sound like an ass but it invalidates that entire argument IMO. (In regards to the SnB, 2H, Bow and Heavy armor).

You mentioned dark deal let me show you this video as to why that thinking is wrong (in regards to the 'stoppable conversion')
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Maxwell/video/25414828 How do I combat that supposedly 'stoppable' conversion. Try to interrupt until I run out of resources? This reflects exactly what happens when you fight every stam sorc or mag soc converting lmao.

Templar has a AoE slowing circle that heals over time too (unless I'm mistaken about the heal over time) but I believe it provides major mending.

NBs has the best Stamina burst in the game so don't even lol.

TL;DR watch the video in the link but Stam DK needs some changes preferably I want my Flames of Oblivion back (AoE) while stam sorcs should lose hurricane. I'm sorry but a class that is built around 'standing your ground' shouldn't lose that ability which helped stand our ground to a class that is built around mobility and fluidity (rotation wise).

MaxwellC

@Kilandros
Minor vitality comes from gDB now but on live it comes from Coag. You honestly don't expect a Stam DK to kill nearly half of his mag pool to use that ability right? I hope you're not being serious.

In regards to battle roar: It's a good passive but come on man that passive is so outdated it kills me to keep preaching it over and over again. The passive needs to be brought up to par, Battle roar is a resource passive but it's not consistent like it was in the past and it needs something. Someone suggested DoTs applying minor heroism as a passive alongside the current recover stats upon ultimate usage.

I honestly think it should apply Major heroism (3 ultimate per second I think) for 10 seconds if not 15 after using an ultimate. This would help our ultimates gain faster instead of being necked in a speed race between every class while we're all tied together.

Lord_Hev

PandaIsAPotato wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Exactly this, right now stam dk doesn't feel unqiue simply because most of my skills are the same across tge board for stam builds.

As someone who mained Stam DK after they butchered Mag DK, it doesn't need to feel unique, it has everything in it's toolkit to preform perfectly fine in any situation in PvP. The class itself still needs to be tweaked though, and that in turn could help you, I would also prefer the poison crap to be reverted to flame but asking for straight Stam DK buffs is not the way to go, ask for buffs to the base class, regardless of what spec you play.

Back from the Ashes, he has arisen.


DK is back