PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

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MaxwellC wrote: »

Ah lol I was like "maybe he uses cinder storm and I'm missing something" lol.

When he said "use cinder storm, Igneous weps, and Green Dragons Blood" on a stam build I designated him as a troll.

MaxwellC

^Yup I was like uh gDB is only suitable when it comes to high health tanking but even still you wouldn't use it since you'd be spamming igneous shield to get stamina back. Igneous weps is fine but he said molten armaments which I was like *** lol. Igneous weapons is for PvE use but cinderstorm I was like yup ok all these high costing mag abilities then he drops cinderstorm he's definitely a

Xvorg

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
You don't seem to understand what people are getting it when it comes to Stam DK. First of all 10k Magicka is enough to gain access to your utilities that you'd use (two abilities maybe 3) since you're not consistently using magic it's fine. Secondly this class isn't about wearing heavy armor as it seems you're eluding to but you pointed out Inferno AoE; Why was that given to sorcerers whose passives benefit the DPS role so much?

Dks who play PvP rarely use Igneous weapons I mean make that's literally 4.5k without reduction if not 4.6k magicka lol. If you need Major brutality well you go to rally or flying dagger, heck even potions!

Take Flight is a garbage ultimate and was only used for being a unique ability that allows you to fly on to keeps, it's easily beaten by dawn breaker of smiting, onslaught, rend, arrow barrage,etc.

Venom Claw and Noxious breath are both DoTs which are very unfavorable in PvP as you can heal through them, shield through them, and purify/purge it.
Noxious breath is good for the debuff but try using that ability in a fight and watch it miss more than half the time even in close range. You can even watch Fengrush who was annoyed by how unreliable it is missing at close range.

Scales is unreliable AF and many people through-out this entire thread has even stated that it DOES NOT ALWAYS REFLECT. My goodness man look through the thread before posting every ability DKs have to know which functions correctly or not.

Dragon's blood still costs over 4.4k magicka without reductions and who would even bother to use that ability during a fight lol? Now you can only use igneous shield or fossilize instead of using both when needed, what happens if you use hardened armor and that goes down is that a "Oh well there it goes" moment for you?

Regarding Flames of Oblivion there is no need to make it poison damage or the other morph whatever you're saying. The ability just needs to scale off of Max resource/damage. I'm sure poison would be great for us but I'd rather cauterize go into a PBAoE Heal for those who want to heal on their Mag DK. Flames of Oblivion would also need to increase the damage done by DoT that are DK specific by X percent or increase some form of damage.

Lastly there is no synergy with Heavy armor and DK, the only thing that people love to say is the healing passive and the block passive (which is getting nerf'd or corrected since we weren't really receiving that amount to begin with lmao). The only passive that truly aligns with Stam DK as a tank would be the damaged blocked and that's it.

Stam sorcs abilities as you listed also benefit them with passives such as implosion, Power stone (reduce your ultimate cost), unholy knowledge (reduces cost of mag/stam), Energized, Expert Mage, and Capacitor. All these passives right there is what makes stam sorcs pretty good with whatever setup they tend to rock (PvP wise).


Stamblades/Stam sorcs feel unique because their class aids them in killing enemies and their abilities make it much easier to do so.

I do not follow the meta heck I even made a build video already that shows that I do not follow the meta I wear 5 Medium 2 Heavy no proc sets just maelstrom weapons (2H/bow although the bow is currently a decisive masters bow). I wear 5 Hunding + 5 Automaton. The reason why we do not feel unique is because every other class has something that benefits them completely while also benefiting group play (PvE) while Stam DKs don't have anything other than a passive that buffs minor brutality for everyone + Magma shell. We want to provide AoEs, we want to buff our allies, and we want to have skills that are fun to use instead of relying on 90% weapon skills/ultimates.

You are the one who doesnt seem to get it. So go and read again the last paragraph i wrote. All you do is explaining how each ability isnt good because it doesnt work with the meta but this is the exact thing that i said. The design of the DK doesnt work well with current state of PVP and is certainly not working well with ur build. Just because DOTs are not the meta it doesnt mean they are useless as abilities. They just dont work well in this current state of PVP. I told you make inferno a stamDK tool with secondary effects that help the DK playstyle like buff dots. But its still not going to be useful on a 2h/bow medium build that relies on burst and mobility cause simply the class isnt designed for that. And all classes use dawnbreaker. Enough with this.
And enough with this crap about abilities being useless cause they cost a ton of magicka for ur medium armor stambuild with no magicka sustain. This is not an argument. This applies for ALL classes. Streak costs even more magicka. Does that make it useless? Do you really believe that only DK abilities cost a lot and for every other stamina class their utility abilities are free? Like seriously? Go play a medium armor stamsorc with 10k magicka and tell me how many times you can streak before running out of magicka. If you want to have more utility from magicka abilities put on heavy armor or use drinks.
Just because you dont follow the meta it doesnt mean that the class should be balanced around ur build. You have utility abilities in ur class. Major mending, armor buffs, dots, passives for healing, abilities for healing, passives for snares, blocking, resistances, sustain. Do they need help? Sure they do. I said it myself and inferno will help with that. But its obvious that the class isnt designed for a bursty 2h/bow medium armor build. So dont expect the class that is designed around DOTs and taking dmg to help you with a build designed around burst and mobility. You want to play like that then reroll a stamblade or stamsorc that will help with that. What exactly did u expect when u made a medium armor 2h/bow build with zero magicka sustain? Of course you are not gonna have a use for most abilities and passives of the DK class on a build like that. Thats ur fault.

I think you dont get the real problem of DK. Our passives are crap, so any attempt to be consistent with dots or without them will lead you to a dead end with a sword and a shield hunging in the wall.

Have a look at the ardent flame passives and then look ate the other classes passives: each one of those classes has a form of getting minor buffs by using their skills. DKs? An increase in the poison/fire status. And the status ticks for like 300 dmg points. An increase in the duration of the skills, and increase in the dmg of AoE poison and flame skills (which pigeonhole you into useing a flame staff orn a bow)

Have you seen how much does surge cost? Do you know what it does? Do you know that sorcs have a 5% cost reduction in all their skills? And that, just for slotting surge sorcs get 2% extra wpn and spell dmg? Sorcs passives are so good that you can even make a hybrid without using Pelinals.

So, basically when you say that DKs have tools , you are correct, we have screwdrivers and hammers and pliers.... neverthelss, you must do a surgery with that and that's not fair.

I literally said that the DK as a class could use some tweaks to help the playstyle and make the class abilities and passives more relevant in this current state of PVP and i also suggested a buff to stamDK even tho they do actually perform very good in prety much every aspect of PVP. So what exactly is ur problem again? Do DKs have useless passives? Sure they do. But all classes have useless passives. Do you know that stam sorcs have an entire skill line with useless abilities? Do you know that sorcs also have a very good passive that they cant even utilize cause its in the stupid pet skill line and the only thing "worth" slotting from that tree is a toggle? Do you know that the stam sorc passives u mentioned with the addition of implosion , ult cost reduction and increased physical dmg are the only passives they can use? We are talking about half of their passives being useless. All you do here is pointing out the useless DK passives and the good stam sorc passives as this somehow represents the whole picture and making it sound as if stamDK are useless in PVP. Its just two completely different classes. Stam DKs dont feel unique anymore cause of this stupid meta where everyone has everything by using broken sets and potions. That doesnt mean that stamDKs are bad in PVP. They perform very well in every aspect of PVP.

And what's the use a Tank DK can make of the ardent flame passives?

Tell me, a passive that increases your health regen is a good one? A passive that gives you 2.6k spell res I suppose is great for magDKs running shields, or the passive that force you to pay at least 3050 k magicka to get 1750 stam... that's a great passive that gives you 5250 stam for depleting your magicka pool.

I know all classes have uselss passive, but no other class has only 4 or 5 useful passives for each playing style. If you go full dmg, you lose the mitigation passive, if you go full defensive, you lose the entire ardent flame line. If you are ranged stam (bow) and don't like to spend your magica otherwise magelight, you lose the entire mountain blessing line, including the helping hands passive.

Anyway, I wonder, have you ever played a DK, or your opinion comes from the theoretical approach? Because in theory I can build a beast of a DK

pieratsos

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
You're not understanding that's the point. If you run medium it's not like you're spamming your magicka utilties constant unless you're just bad at PvP. I do not go around spamming igneous shield or fossilize while I'm in combat against another player(s) because that's bad resource management. You look at it as "Oh well if I run medium I will constantly spam my magic abilities and thus I have no magic sustain" like wtf is that kind of argument? You're running an offensive build ofc you need to balance your resources to the best of your ability instead of just spamming dark deal to no end and regarding that umm no that's a fact lol dark deal cost less that 2.5k magicka so if you have a 10k pool you can spam that 4 times in a row drink a tri pot and get another 4x up time. If you don't get a tri pot and with your magicka recovery being at bare minimum (around 500-600) you'd get another one in roughly 4 seconds. Mobility wise with bolt escape, I've never met a stam sorc that spammed bolt escape so I can't really say anything than that; Even when they ran away they would use a immovable pot and just sprint away.

Regarding the pet line um no you mentioned the 'useless' passives and or skill line and I went ahead and corrected that with information that you can easily search of players soloing (sorcerers) using the pets to aid what the point I wanted to get across which you dismissed entirely.

You need to re-read what I stated the only DoTs that do not work well in PvP as a FACT is our DK class ones. Please make a video of you using both DoTs no injection and show me how well that stacks up in PvP. My Igneous shield would out pace that DoT half the time lol..

That is NOT the same thing as a class not feeling unique, I just told you what it didn't feel that way just because our class DoTs suck D in PvP doesn't make me feel my class isn't unique it's having a decent passive and a decent ability that is DIFFERENT from any other class is what makes you feel unique. Having crap in a reskin doing a slightly different effect is still well you guessed it... CRAP. It's the same man and that's the point if I have to keeo stating that then there's no hope with this argument.

Flames of Oblivion would help because it's an AoE and seeing that you do not play PvE content or PvP for that matter since you're asking why it would help me. #1 PvE content we have single target damage but no class AoE, we've got barrage and we've got caltrops but to have something that could increase the DoT damage while applying even more AoE damage makes our class more versatile. PvP wise if you use noxious breath the way I use it which I believe you said you do i.e. dragging enemies out of stealth well now you can use Flames of Oblivion to accomplish that at a more fluid pace instead of spamming noxious breath which has a small delay (probably the main reason why it misses at close range).

Regarding Major Heroism that's 3 ultimate a second for x amount of seconds (since no ability in the game has it irrc) So what if we get ultimates faster than a NB that is the point because we are suppose to get ultimates a lot faster hence our passive building our regeneration around that. DK class is about standing your ground or at-least was about it and ultimate regeneration was a key part in doing that but after the changes now we all get it a same pace. Nightblades get a huge jump in comparison to DKs when it comes to drinking a potion and suddenly being awarded 20 ultimate but we'll forget about that.

Ok let me clear this up for you regarding passives let's go in compare sorcerer to DK (useful passive wise )

Sorcerer: Power Stone: Ultimate reduced by 15%, Unholy knowledge Stam/Mag cost reduced by 5%, Blood Magic enemies hit by dark magic heals 8% of your health, Persistence dark magic duration increases by 20%, exploitation using dark magic gives allies minor prophecy, Capacitor increases Mag recovery by 10%, Energized Increases physical and shock damage by 5%, implosion pretty much an execute passive, and expert mage increases weapon/spell damage for each sorcerer ability slotted.
Quite sure if you have bound armaments on your bar applies Daedric protection passive.

DK: Combustion increases burning/poison status by 66%, Searing Heat Increase fiery breath, searing strike, n DK standard by 2 seconds/ increase damage by 3%, World in ruin increases AoE flame/poison damage (not useful for stam DKs) by 6%, Iron skin block addition 8% damage (read patch notes that's how much we actually blocked all along not 10%), Burning Heart increases healing received while draconic ability is active by 12%, Scaled armor increase spell resistance by 2640 (not really good but ok), Eternal mountain increases earthen heart abilities by 20%, battle roar gives back 70% resource of ultimate cost in health/stam/mag (forgot the actual numbers for this on PTS), Mountains blessing using earthen heart skills apply minor brutality to allies and gives you 3 ultimate (6 second cool down), and Helping hands gives 5% of your Max stam when using earthen heart abilities.

Read and tell me which would you prefer because idk man a nice 15% reduction in my ultimates + passives that help me do more damage, have higher recovery, and execute players isn't too bad at all. Instead we have a few passives that help (the most being helping hands after you spam it 3 times and battle roar after you get an ultimate to use).

Ok thats the last time i answer to you. You obviously have issues at understanding what people are saying and im not gonna bother explaining to you every time the same things over and over again just because you cant read a simple text.

I understand perfectly how the mechanics of the game work. You are the one who pretends to be an expert on every class when its prety clear that you have no idea about what u are talking about. First of all, dark deal is OP and it needs a nerf so stop talking about specifically that ability as if somehow all other abilities are like it. Anw dark deal costs has a cast time so the magicka usage over time will be lower than instant cast abilities. Its not exactly the perfect example. Streak on the other hand is expensive af. Thats why u dont see stam sorcs spamming it. And thats my point. Im not talking about specific abilities. Im talking about magicka usage for stamina builds in general. You are comparing ur build with no magicka sustain to heavy armor builds with very good magicka sustain and complaining why they have better magicka sustain. Like i said, u are basically comparing apples with oranges and complaining why ur apples doesnt taste like oranges. If however ur issue is specifically with dark deal, thats because dark deal is overpowered and it allows sorcs to completely ignore sustain when they put on heavy armor. You should be asking for dark deal nerf to make it balanced, not asking for buffs so u can be overpowered and completely ignore sustain too. Thats not how balance works.

Regarding the pet line. Another example of you not being able to understand a simple text. I answered to someone talking about stam sorc passives. So the conversation was obviously about stam sorc passives. NOT magicka sorc. I specifically said stam sorc have a whole skill line with useless abilities and in that skill line they also have a good passive that they cant utilize unless they use a toggle. And obviously toggles are not exactly good in PVP.

Regarding DOTs. Venomous claw has a higher tooltip than poison injection. Thats a FACT. Stop making up fake numbers to prove ur point. You dont even know how ur own abilities work. The difference is that poison injection dmg skyrockets cause it has a built in execute. And u can also cast it from range long before u actually charge in for a burst so it has plenty of time to do dmg. If you could cast venomous claw from range and animation cancel it with ur bow you would be surprised how much dmg it can do. DOTs in general are not good in PVP cause the recovery time is very low and its all about burst.

Regarding flames of oblivion. Another example of you not being to understand a simple text. Im talking about ur PVP build and u bring up PVE again. Stop talking about PVE. In PVE ALL stamina classes are in a bad spot including stam sorcs due to their survivability in trials. In PVP however to utilize it you would have to play a more tanky setup in the middle of the fight holding ur ground and applying pressure with DOTs, sort of like magicka DK and a potential change to flames of oblivion would help with that. Your playstyle however has nothing to do with that. It wouldnt really help you cause u are not playing a build relying on DOTs to do dmg. So you would still be here complaining.

Regarding sorc passives. Again u list all the sorc passives. Congrats. Now tell me what dark magic dmg ability stam sorcs use to get 8% of their hp back. Tell me what use stam sorcs have for minor prophecy. Tell me what use stam sorcs have for magicka regen. The conversation is about stam sorcs. NOT magicka sorcs. Stam sorcs have reduced utl mag and stam cost. Increased dmg and implosion. Every other passive is useless. Thats more than half of their passives. All the DK passives u mentioned are at some degree useful for stamDK and some of them are prety f*cking good. And with the suggested change to FOO they become a hell of a lot better. Does that mean they are better or worse than stam sorc passives. No. It is what it is. Both classes have good and bad passives. But saying that all the DK abilities and passives are flat out useless is just wrong.

Regarding major heroism. You just proved my point. You dont care about balance. We are not talking about simply better ult regen. Nightblades have very high ult regen and still, all their ult passives combined doesnt even come close to major heroism. Its not simply better. We are talking about dynamic ult regen 2.0 but this time u only want DKs to have it. Major heroism, minor heroism, mountains blessing, normal ult regen, ult gain on kills, tavas, invigorating drain etc Thats potentially 100% uptime on major heroism or something close to that. And then you want also a buff to battle roar. So shoot ults out of ur ass which leads to infinite sustain. Thats ur idea of balance. Im not saying DKs shouldnt have better ult regen than what they have now. But your requests are absurd. You completely ignore every other playstyle and the fact that StamDK are already good in every aspect of PVP just because ur build doesnt work and you are making absurd requests like literally infinite sustain, more dmg, spam ults, kill people without using animation cancelling ( lol at this one) without even thinking about the general balance of the game and what consequences those changes may have in class balance. You dont care about balance. You just want be overpowered. Forgive me if i dont share that mentality. Have a nice day.

pieratsos

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
You don't seem to understand what people are getting it when it comes to Stam DK. First of all 10k Magicka is enough to gain access to your utilities that you'd use (two abilities maybe 3) since you're not consistently using magic it's fine. Secondly this class isn't about wearing heavy armor as it seems you're eluding to but you pointed out Inferno AoE; Why was that given to sorcerers whose passives benefit the DPS role so much?

Dks who play PvP rarely use Igneous weapons I mean make that's literally 4.5k without reduction if not 4.6k magicka lol. If you need Major brutality well you go to rally or flying dagger, heck even potions!

Take Flight is a garbage ultimate and was only used for being a unique ability that allows you to fly on to keeps, it's easily beaten by dawn breaker of smiting, onslaught, rend, arrow barrage,etc.

Venom Claw and Noxious breath are both DoTs which are very unfavorable in PvP as you can heal through them, shield through them, and purify/purge it.
Noxious breath is good for the debuff but try using that ability in a fight and watch it miss more than half the time even in close range. You can even watch Fengrush who was annoyed by how unreliable it is missing at close range.

Scales is unreliable AF and many people through-out this entire thread has even stated that it DOES NOT ALWAYS REFLECT. My goodness man look through the thread before posting every ability DKs have to know which functions correctly or not.

Dragon's blood still costs over 4.4k magicka without reductions and who would even bother to use that ability during a fight lol? Now you can only use igneous shield or fossilize instead of using both when needed, what happens if you use hardened armor and that goes down is that a "Oh well there it goes" moment for you?

Regarding Flames of Oblivion there is no need to make it poison damage or the other morph whatever you're saying. The ability just needs to scale off of Max resource/damage. I'm sure poison would be great for us but I'd rather cauterize go into a PBAoE Heal for those who want to heal on their Mag DK. Flames of Oblivion would also need to increase the damage done by DoT that are DK specific by X percent or increase some form of damage.

Lastly there is no synergy with Heavy armor and DK, the only thing that people love to say is the healing passive and the block passive (which is getting nerf'd or corrected since we weren't really receiving that amount to begin with lmao). The only passive that truly aligns with Stam DK as a tank would be the damaged blocked and that's it.

Stam sorcs abilities as you listed also benefit them with passives such as implosion, Power stone (reduce your ultimate cost), unholy knowledge (reduces cost of mag/stam), Energized, Expert Mage, and Capacitor. All these passives right there is what makes stam sorcs pretty good with whatever setup they tend to rock (PvP wise).


Stamblades/Stam sorcs feel unique because their class aids them in killing enemies and their abilities make it much easier to do so.

I do not follow the meta heck I even made a build video already that shows that I do not follow the meta I wear 5 Medium 2 Heavy no proc sets just maelstrom weapons (2H/bow although the bow is currently a decisive masters bow). I wear 5 Hunding + 5 Automaton. The reason why we do not feel unique is because every other class has something that benefits them completely while also benefiting group play (PvE) while Stam DKs don't have anything other than a passive that buffs minor brutality for everyone + Magma shell. We want to provide AoEs, we want to buff our allies, and we want to have skills that are fun to use instead of relying on 90% weapon skills/ultimates.

You are the one who doesnt seem to get it. So go and read again the last paragraph i wrote. All you do is explaining how each ability isnt good because it doesnt work with the meta but this is the exact thing that i said. The design of the DK doesnt work well with current state of PVP and is certainly not working well with ur build. Just because DOTs are not the meta it doesnt mean they are useless as abilities. They just dont work well in this current state of PVP. I told you make inferno a stamDK tool with secondary effects that help the DK playstyle like buff dots. But its still not going to be useful on a 2h/bow medium build that relies on burst and mobility cause simply the class isnt designed for that. And all classes use dawnbreaker. Enough with this.
And enough with this crap about abilities being useless cause they cost a ton of magicka for ur medium armor stambuild with no magicka sustain. This is not an argument. This applies for ALL classes. Streak costs even more magicka. Does that make it useless? Do you really believe that only DK abilities cost a lot and for every other stamina class their utility abilities are free? Like seriously? Go play a medium armor stamsorc with 10k magicka and tell me how many times you can streak before running out of magicka. If you want to have more utility from magicka abilities put on heavy armor or use drinks.
Just because you dont follow the meta it doesnt mean that the class should be balanced around ur build. You have utility abilities in ur class. Major mending, armor buffs, dots, passives for healing, abilities for healing, passives for snares, blocking, resistances, sustain. Do they need help? Sure they do. I said it myself and inferno will help with that. But its obvious that the class isnt designed for a bursty 2h/bow medium armor build. So dont expect the class that is designed around DOTs and taking dmg to help you with a build designed around burst and mobility. You want to play like that then reroll a stamblade or stamsorc that will help with that. What exactly did u expect when u made a medium armor 2h/bow build with zero magicka sustain? Of course you are not gonna have a use for most abilities and passives of the DK class on a build like that. Thats ur fault.

I think you dont get the real problem of DK. Our passives are crap, so any attempt to be consistent with dots or without them will lead you to a dead end with a sword and a shield hunging in the wall.

Have a look at the ardent flame passives and then look ate the other classes passives: each one of those classes has a form of getting minor buffs by using their skills. DKs? An increase in the poison/fire status. And the status ticks for like 300 dmg points. An increase in the duration of the skills, and increase in the dmg of AoE poison and flame skills (which pigeonhole you into useing a flame staff orn a bow)

Have you seen how much does surge cost? Do you know what it does? Do you know that sorcs have a 5% cost reduction in all their skills? And that, just for slotting surge sorcs get 2% extra wpn and spell dmg? Sorcs passives are so good that you can even make a hybrid without using Pelinals.

So, basically when you say that DKs have tools , you are correct, we have screwdrivers and hammers and pliers.... neverthelss, you must do a surgery with that and that's not fair.

I literally said that the DK as a class could use some tweaks to help the playstyle and make the class abilities and passives more relevant in this current state of PVP and i also suggested a buff to stamDK even tho they do actually perform very good in prety much every aspect of PVP. So what exactly is ur problem again? Do DKs have useless passives? Sure they do. But all classes have useless passives. Do you know that stam sorcs have an entire skill line with useless abilities? Do you know that sorcs also have a very good passive that they cant even utilize cause its in the stupid pet skill line and the only thing "worth" slotting from that tree is a toggle? Do you know that the stam sorc passives u mentioned with the addition of implosion , ult cost reduction and increased physical dmg are the only passives they can use? We are talking about half of their passives being useless. All you do here is pointing out the useless DK passives and the good stam sorc passives as this somehow represents the whole picture and making it sound as if stamDK are useless in PVP. Its just two completely different classes. Stam DKs dont feel unique anymore cause of this stupid meta where everyone has everything by using broken sets and potions. That doesnt mean that stamDKs are bad in PVP. They perform very well in every aspect of PVP.

And what's the use a Tank DK can make of the ardent flame passives?

Tell me, a passive that increases your health regen is a good one? A passive that gives you 2.6k spell res I suppose is great for magDKs running shields, or the passive that force you to pay at least 3050 k magicka to get 1750 stam... that's a great passive that gives you 5250 stam for depleting your magicka pool.

I know all classes have uselss passive, but no other class has only 4 or 5 useful passives for each playing style. If you go full dmg, you lose the mitigation passive, if you go full defensive, you lose the entire ardent flame line. If you are ranged stam (bow) and don't like to spend your magica otherwise magelight, you lose the entire mountain blessing line, including the helping hands passive.

Anyway, I wonder, have you ever played a DK, or your opinion comes from the theoretical approach? Because in theory I can build a beast of a DK

I didnt say DK have the best passives. But you guys just flat out said that basically all the abilities and passives are completely useless and all stam sorcs passives are good. Thats just not the truth. Stam sorcs also have 5 good passives. Every other passive is useless. And just like ur DK tank doesnt benefit from ur ardent flame passives the same way a sorc tank doesnt benefit from their dmg passives. Besides the ardent flame which i specifically said that will get better with a potential change to inferno buffing dots the other 2 skill lines have good passives for DKs. Block, healing, resistances. Are they the best? No. But they are not useless. The only flat out useless DK passive is elder dragon and it needs to be buffed by a lot or replaced by something else entirely. Earthern heart has battle roar, mountains blessing, eternal mountain and helping hands. They are all good. And yes helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good. You are trying to say that ur passives are not good cause u cant utilize all of them in every situation but the fact is that this applies for all classes. There is not a single class that benefits from all their passives at every single situation.

Savos_Saren

@neighbor @NBrookus

See- I hate the fact that we can't pull people down from walls or dragon leap up/down to them. I wish ZoS would simply make it where we could jump/pull in any direction within 28 meters. They could put a "block" on keeps that aren't under siege.

For instance: You can pull/leap to anyone- but if you try it on a person inside a keep that isn't under siege- you'd get a similar message that we usually get. Instead of "too low or too high" it would say "keep not under siege" or "keep wall not at 0%". This same message could apply to NBs as well.

That way, we can use our abilities as intended and not allow DKs to exploit their ability. Wouldn't that fix the problem?

BlackMadara

@MaxwellC There are many playstyles, some of which are far from meta, that are playable in pvp. The abilities available to Stam DK can help these. From my previous post you seemed a bit confused about some things.

Igneous weapons can be used to acquire major brutality without the use of two hand, dw, or potions. One could run SnB and Bow for instance, with tri pots. Yes, it has less healing due to not having rally, but you gave access to poison injection and speed from the bow tree. I did so for a time in medium armor for a kick. It's fun. Not the best, but fun.

Venomous Claw is a strong dot. Dots are relatively weak in pvp right now, yes, but not useless. They apply pressure to those with hots or constant pressure to those with only burst heals. They are weak against shields, but do help eat away at them, opening up opportunities for burst to get past them. Poison injection and Venomous are a strong combo, except against templars. Dots are useful if you build for them, being tanky, and still having some damage. Some HA mDK can accomplish this, many have said we only need a heal and our damage is fine. Currently farming to build my stam DK for a DOT like build. We'll see how it goes. Should be fun though.

Now you seem to think that if anybody doesn't agree with you, or plays in a different manner, doesn't play stam DK or are just bad. That's small minded. Just because 2h and Bow isn't meta, doesn't mean that stam DK passives are useless. That's narrow minded. There are other ways to play that aren't meta. Use your head and get out of the WB meta playstyle if it bothers you so much.

MaxwellC

@BlackMadara
You seem to completely miss my point but ok first off as a person who ran a DoT build (proc set) I can say firmly that yeah DoTs do suck (at-least DKs DoTs) and I'm sorry if you do not feel that way but I've tried it. I ran 5 Hundings + 5 sheer venom + maelstrom 2H. I invested around 10% into thaum and watched the proc sheer venom work like a charm with injection but the only thing was if I let venom claw or noxious breath by themselves do something while applying pressure with merciless charge,etc well it just sucked.
If I just use injection and sheer venom along with merciless charge then those DoTs would apply enough pressure because two are execute DoTs while the other is free damage from a critical charge.

I'm not sure if you're the one who stated that getting rid of a 2H and investing large amounts of CP into blessed/healing received instead of going rally. You're saying get rid of the best burst heal you can acquire to try the 1h/shield meta (which I never liked playing) and sacrifice the CP put into your offensive tree to accomplish that. That wouldn't be a bad idea for 1v1 duels sure but open world PvP no that would be terrible.

Lastly please don't change my words or assume anything like 'Now you seem to think that anybody that doesn't agree with you, or plays in a different manner, doesn't play stam DK or are just bad." + stating that I somehow eluded that because 2h/bow isn't meta Stam DK passives are useless.

Quote me anywhere where I've said that DK passives are entirely useless, there are plenty of them that need to be reworked for example world in ruin the only thing that benefits that per description would be corrosive armor, now I'm not sure if noxious breath/poison arrow spray would be apart of it as they're cone abilities and not technically an AoE but yeah.

DK passives are generally ok but they're behind due to changes in the PvP scene and in some cases the PvE scene which is why I said they need to be redesigned or reworked on w/e way you wanna say it there has to be changes. Battle roar was designed around the dynamic system with that gone we still do not receive ultimate faster than any other class like we were suppose to as it aided our 'stand your ground' playstyle which was what DK is about or was about. If they (ZOS) at the very least brought that up to par with changes to other passives coming later... well that'll be a nice light in the dark tunnel laid out.

I will also like to touch on the being a bad DK assumption. If you use Cinderstorm on a Stam DK in PvP I think you're bad, if you use dragon's blood on a stam DK that isn't health based (30k+ health) I think you're bad or just don't realize there's better ways to achieve healing, if you're using molten armaments (and not igneous weapons) I think you're a bad stam DK as it benefits major sorcery and heavy attacks only, if you think take flight is better than dawn breaking of smiting or any other physical damage weapon ultimate then I think you're misinformed and should look at the ultimates instead of relying on something that costs slightly less. That's just a break down on how I'd assume you're bad or misinformed, that sounds arrogant but I've been playing this class for a long time and I've been playing DK since way back in 2015. I do not play any other class other than DK as it shows in my signature.

I want changes for my class because I miss the good old days and back then when Wrecking blow was an actual meta because that isn't the case now (thought i'd correct you on that) good old flames of Oblivion + talons always saved the day but then again that's when talons had a large AoE.

MaxwellC

@jaburns
I think it would be awesome to fly into keeps, that's the only reason why I used take flight back then because it's boring trying to get that wall down while enemies rain hell all over you from a safer spot above. I would take flight in there and go to town like a hungry monster lol. I also missed old chains where at the initial siege phase (where you break down the outer wall) people would sit up there attacking you thinking they're safe but then came a DK who's like "OH! YEAH? GET OVER HERE" scorpia style dragging them down to their doom. Those were the good old days

kookster

MaxwellC wrote: »

@jaburns
I think it would be awesome to fly into keeps, that's the only reason why I used take flight back then because it's boring trying to get that wall down while enemies rain hell all over you from a safer spot above. I would take flight in there and go to town like a hungry monster lol. I also missed old chains where at the initial siege phase (where you break down the outer wall) people would sit up there attacking you thinking they're safe but then came a DK who's like "OH! YEAH? GET OVER HERE" scorpia style dragging them down to their doom. Those were the good old days

I wasn't here then for those days, sounds so much fun. I wish they would fix their "fix" on chains for that. Isn't the z-axis issues their fix for DK's getting on walls? It's so broke.

Savos_Saren

@MaxwellC

Is that the only reason ZoS has limited the DK's chains? Just because they could Leap or Chain their way onto a keep that wasn't under attack? I mean, if so... perhaps they could just program it to be how it was in the old days? Just add the "Keep not under attack" or "Keep wall not at 0%" as a fix for people exploiting Leap and Chains.

MaxwellC

@pieratsos
Yeah you know what mate I think it's best if you just duel me on live if you play Xbox run a stam sorc with medium because you can keep a good magic sustain as you're not dipping into it. I've tried to explain that to you but my goodness you just ignore that consistently.

I've mentioned dark deal as a comparison when it came to sustain, dark deal can be interrupted but lol look at the thread leepalmer showed there's a video of me trying to interrupt someone who spams dark deal let's just say as I burned through my stamina they just kept casting it so it's OP as you stated but it's 1 counter isn't good enough. The only reason why it's OP is that the counter doesn't stop them from casting it for a few seconds nor does it consume their magicka and for the last time stop quoting bolt escape.

I literally commented and stated that as many stam sorcs I've faced in PvP no one bolt escaped while fighting to the extent they'd burn their magic from doing so, you must be playing some new players if that's the case. Stam sorcs who decided to flee battle with me would bolt once then pop hurricane and you'd see them go like the road runner.

Regarding flames of oblivion again you stated something about how it would be useful so I gave you that answer jeez mate can't handle the answer to your question.

Regarding poison injection mate read the tooltip the damage scales when the enemy has lower health therefor it would do higher damage at execute range. The main issue with venom claw is also that you have to apply it at close range which is suitable for duels/PvE not open world PvP.

Quote me when I have said that DK passives are flat out useless You keep stating I'm assuming yet you've done that very same thing through-out this back n forth.

Lol again you talked about sorcs having better passives than DK so when I laid it out for you then you act condescending mate grow up and have a serious debate.

Regarding Major Heroism that's just a suggestion and I'm welcome for feedback on that suggestion as it's not in place. You should also stop saying it's dynamic ulti regen 2.0 because first of all you'd only get it upon ultimate usage and major heroism at 10 seconds would be 30 ultimate. You didn't give a suggestion maybe an alternate idea but instead you flat out lash out about it being unbalanced rather than giving any alternative one to aid the discussion whatsoever. Stam DK passives some do help a little but that doesn't mean any shouldn't be redesigned like elder dragon for example (I would prefer that to be magic recovery).

I think I'll end it here even though you've stated you'll do so anyway. If you read and actually provided alternatives to some of my suggestions instead of being condescending or somehow acquiring amnesia after I answer your question(s) then this would be a better discussion. In my opinion Stam DK shouldn't need to play meta to be good but should be able to run any type of build and find new ways in order to accomplish that.

MaxwellC

@jaburns
Yeah irrc people complained about being dragged off of keeps and sometimes through the door when they tried to open the door to get in the keep. Those were fun days lol.

MaxwellC

@kookster
I think it's every axis honestly lol, the issue was people getting into keeps to begin with but getting on them from a 'friendly' enemy or a NPC. People who tried to cap keeps without doing anything that way. I've experienced that first hand when I was going for emperor (which made it take forever to get it again) boy that was a pain in the butt lol

kookster

MaxwellC wrote: »

@kookster
I think it's every axis honestly lol, the issue was people getting into keeps to begin with but getting on them from a 'friendly' enemy or a NPC. People who tried to cap keeps without doing anything that way. I've experienced that first hand when I was going for emperor (which made it take forever to get it again) boy that was a pain in the butt lol

I dont doubt that being a pain. I just hope they fix the issues with chains. It's our only non weapon/non ult cap closer.

Savos_Saren

@MaxwellC
@kookster

Then, perhaps I'll suggest to @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_RichLambert that they could return Chains/Leap to its original setting- but program an error message to read "Keep wall/door not at 0%" That would make it where people couldn't get pulled through doors and DK's couldn't Chain or Leap up to a keep that isn't under attack.

MaxwellC

@jaburns
I'd support that suggestion, or if they decide to provide more PvP utilities to scaling walls (I know some suggested that in the past). It's rather one sided in PvP when we know in regular siege people scale walls all the time using ladders or grappling hooks.

NBrookus

jaburns wrote: »

@neighbor @NBrookus

See- I hate the fact that we can't pull people down from walls or dragon leap up/down to them. I wish ZoS would simply make it where we could jump/pull in any direction within 28 meters. They could put a "block" on keeps that aren't under siege.

For instance: You can pull/leap to anyone- but if you try it on a person inside a keep that isn't under siege- you'd get a similar message that we usually get. Instead of "too low or too high" it would say "keep not under siege" or "keep wall not at 0%". This same message could apply to NBs as well.

That way, we can use our abilities as intended and not allow DKs to exploit their ability. Wouldn't that fix the problem?

Take Flight is an ultimate and leaping into a keep under siege was tons of fun -- and you generally died shortly thereafter. >D Leaping down should be a no brainer; zero reason why this doesn't work.

But I don't think you should be able to pull people off walls because there's no reasonable counterplay. You can't keep immov pots up all the time and the immov skill is just way too expensive for magicka builds (and a lousy skill to boot.) Defenders *should * have the advantage of high ground. It's hard enough to get people to jump off the walls and fight without any DK being able to pull people down to their doom.

And chaining into a keep, because it's not an ultimate, would be too cheap for the utility. But the z axis "fix" was so draconian the skill is just busted. It'd be better to have a few spots where DKs CAN chain into a keep that defenders have to learn to watch out for than to have a broken skill. If there was a check for wall <50% or something similar it would effectively prevent abuse and exploiting.

MaxwellC

@NBrookus
Can't you block it since the travel time for that ability isn't instant you could block it and stop it from pulling. I think the main issue is just as you said being able to chain yourself in the keep it should only work on player targets not NPCs + the 50% or keep bursted feature should be a thing too.
If not then ZOS should bring out some new siege toys, I know @ZOS_BrianWheeler had some cool things in mind and I feel as long as he's helming PvP we'll be in good hands. I remember seeing something about dwemer siege so it's all going up from here.

Stamden

More patch notes, more disappointment. Don't know why I expect anything else.

Ariades_swe

Kinda funny how lots of the dk community said before the changes to coagulating blood that all they wanted was a reliable heal to work properly.
What will happen now is that we will be even better at 1v1 and still suck in non zerg open world pvp.
Im talking about mag dk btw.
Stam dk is fine if you are satisfied with being a generic non class centric build.

MaxwellC

@Neighbor
I honestly lost hope after 2.7.3 lol but who knows maybe the next patch with the new area is when we will receive some new skills or more changes! I'll look forward to that if anything at the very least.

Stamden

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Neighbor
I honestly lost hope after 2.7.3 lol but who knows maybe the next patch with the new area is when we will receive some new skills or more changes! I'll look forward to that if anything at the very least.

Yeah, there is no point to playing until then I guess. If you're a DK your probably best off taking a break until next update gets dropped. And then you can look at those patch notes and decide if it's worth your time to continue playing.

It seems Zenimax is just going to permanently neglect this class though.

Toc de Malsvi

As a dedicated Stamina DK I use the crap out of Molten Armaments. It is a great buff for our burst combinations and it isn't hard to maintain at 30s duration.

Molten Armaments has been the cornerstone of my bow builds since release on PC, back when I thought 20 weapon damage was amazing and didn't realize how poorly it would scale.

The high point was right after console launch when you could sustain through medium weave with Venom Arrow and still get a buff to your medium attacks from Molten Armaments.

This isn't the lowest point for that buff, but it is far from unused on stamina DK's, at least from a PVP perspective.

I don't play as much right now due to school but I'm still having a ton of success using Molten Armaments when I do play.

MaxwellC

@Toc de Malsvi
You mean igneous weapons? Molten armaments doesn't provide major brutality. Igneous weapons I use on my Stam DK when I PvE but PvP I have rally since that's what keeps me alive. No Stam DK I know uses molten armaments but igneous weapons that's a different story since they sometimes don't use a 2H because of the proc set build that they run alongside with DW (because bloodthirst/blood craze keeps you alive).

Toc de Malsvi

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi
You mean igneous weapons? Molten armaments doesn't provide major brutality. Igneous weapons I use on my Stam DK when I PvE but PvP I have rally since that's what keeps me alive. No Stam DK I know uses molten armaments but igneous weapons that's a different story since they sometimes don't use a 2H because of the proc set build that they run alongside with DW (because bloodthirst/blood craze keeps you alive).

No I mean Molten Armaments. Landing a 9k heavy before a CC and ult is deadly. I get brutality from Rally.

Veg

Did some testing now that dragon blood works. Went on to try kill mechanics. I cant really say anything i haven't already said. Dragon blood is mediocre, not bad but not great.

We are still the only class with 0 kill mechanics. Leap is useless. This was the only important change mDKs needed this patch and we didnt get it. I recorded a little but its just the same as the other videos i made. we have no good burst damage. Fights with good players last maybe 1 minute (we dont win). Anything else lasts forever.

have fun with another year of people complaining about the exact same things. People will want dragon blood to heal more because they cant kill anyone and feel its because they're being killed in by burst damage. So they will ask for a better dragon blood heal again when the solution is to give us burst damage to actually fight other players.

There will be the exact same threads for the next 5 months until the next patch and then we will repeat this. The devs will buff some crap that doesn't help us and say were good. Were far from being even close to fighting other classes at a skilled level.

Stamden

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

Anhedonie

You guys TOTALLY SUCK at complaining.
It took sorcs only a couple of days to revert nerf to curse. You've been whining about dragon blood for almost two years and devs fixed it just now and it took them several attempts. And there are a lot of issues left that are plagueing DKs like sustain problems and others. And not to mention that DK feedback has the biggest amount of pages of said feedback.
AND I MEAN IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THAT DEVELOPERS AREN'T LISTENING. IT'S JUST YOU SUCK AT COMPLAINING GUYS!

Veg

Anhedonie wrote: »

You guys are TOTALLY SUCK at complaining.
It took sorcs only a couple of days to revert nerf to curse. You've been whining about dragon blood for almost two years and devs fixed it just now and it took them several attempts. And there are a lot of issues left that are plagueing DKs like sustain problems and others. And not to mention that DK feedback has the biggest amount of pages of said feedback.
AND I MEAN IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THAT DEVELOPERS AREN'T LISTENING. IT'S JUST YOU SUCK AT COMPLAINING GUYS!

I must agree. Clearly they aren't getting the message. I guess we'll just have to try harder for the next 5 months : D