Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

Kendaric wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

This sums up my gripe with those wanting to completely hide their vampirism.

Sure, stage 1 could look a bit more normal, but in the later stages people shouldn't be able to hide it. What I do agree with, is that stage 4 looks particularly ugly. But there's a simple solution... stay out of stage 4 or wear a disguise or conceal it with armor.

Also, using Verandis as an example of why we should be able to conceal our vampirism feels a bit odd. Considering he is the only vampire NPC able to do it...

How is that even remotely a solution when the things I've stated are still persisting even with disguises and using armor?

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Agree OP. It would be one thing if there were only subtle differences, but since my vamps look like characters from the walking dead, I always hide them in some way. They should make it a toggle already.

For arguments sake: should I be able to toggle off my pointy ears when I play as a High Elf?

I like their passives, but don't want to have pointy ears.

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

I'm going to dissect this bit by bit.

1)

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

I never said EITHER of you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said those in the thread. A very distinct difference. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize, but regardless the point has been beaten to death. Regardless, the only reasons why you should ever know you're in front of a vampire is if you're fighting one, or you're looking for a bite.

2)

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

My main reasoning is that there's enough logic to support it; yes.

3)

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

Please tell me how feigning mortality is the same as masking your race? That isn't the same request. One is masking an effect. Since when is race an effect? LOL! Sorry, but no. That argument is just silly.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

You maybe reading this thread but you are not comprehending the debate . We WANT to look like vampires . There is a bad design bug that hides fur color , scale color , fave paint and tattoos from character creation . This is by lazy art design unfinished . Vampirism is not suppose to wash out those things at all . It should make skin pale , yes but not tattoos and those other things that make no sense .

Honestly not even pale at stage 1-2. Even the darkest skins come out like that lolita porcelain doll look. I USED to be okay with it. But now it's just getting to the point where I have to stop and wonder if I'm playing a JMMORPG or not.

As regards to the rest of the thread; As I said either here or in the other thread... I'd seriously be happier if we even had the bat face textures from Skyrim. Just SOMETHING that doesn't make me look like the Elf on a Shelf.

I've rolled vamp since I started playing. It's a terribly difficult build. I don't even use any of the skills anymore, just the passives.

Ive become so used to my veiny, lifeless, pale character that I scream when he looks normal!

The way vampires look in this game should be entirely reworked.
These are cool:





These just look stupid and really childish.

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

I'm going to dissect this bit by bit.

1)

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

I never said EITHER of you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said those in the thread. A very distinct difference. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize, but regardless the point has been beaten to death. Regardless, the only reasons why you should ever know you're in front of a vampire is if you're fighting one, or you're looking for a bite.

2)

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

My main reasoning is that there's enough logic to support it; yes.

3)

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

Please tell me how feigning mortality is the same as masking your race? That isn't the same request. One is masking an effect. Since when is race an effect? LOL! Sorry, but no. That argument is just silly.

How is it the same? How is it not the same? How would a Vampire hide their affliction? Illusion spells? Makeup? Clothing? So... The exact same way a Bosmer would pretend to be a Breton?I mean people mask their race in the real world all the time without magic.

How is it not the same? Race does not affect your ability to die. Some people live longer, but they none the less die. How would they? Illusion spells to put a little color in their skin. That's a farcry away from transmogrifying your entire -race-. There's a little more affected with a Bosmer to Breton. Ears, nose, eyes and mouth separation. Reshaping of the face, especially the bone structure (Breton tend to be a liiiiiiiittle less boney in the face). Simple illusion spells are simple. Reshaping your bone structure? Like that's not going to hurt at -all-.

And people don't ordinarily wake up to cover their race because they simply want to be another race in the real world. We also don't have 'real' vampires. People running around claiming they're a vampire, but this isn't the appropriate place to even make the comparison. It's not valid.

Also, again. I said I didn't care either way what we got. So long as the current looks get fixed, and my issues subside with the porcelain doll look; I'd be fine with it because design flaws should be fixed no matter WHAT.

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

I'm going to dissect this bit by bit.

1)

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

I never said EITHER of you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said those in the thread. A very distinct difference. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize, but regardless the point has been beaten to death. Regardless, the only reasons why you should ever know you're in front of a vampire is if you're fighting one, or you're looking for a bite.

2)

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

My main reasoning is that there's enough logic to support it; yes.

3)

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

Please tell me how feigning mortality is the same as masking your race? That isn't the same request. One is masking an effect. Since when is race an effect? LOL! Sorry, but no. That argument is just silly.

How is it the same? How is it not the same? How would a Vampire hide their affliction? Illusion spells? Makeup? Clothing? So... The exact same way a Bosmer would pretend to be a Breton?I mean people mask their race in the real world all the time without magic.

How is it not the same? Race does not affect your ability to die. Some people live longer, but they none the less die. How would they? Illusion spells to put a little color in their skin. That's a farcry away from transmogrify your entire -race-. There's a little more affected with a Bosmer to Breton. Ears, nose, eyes and mouth separation. Reshaping of the face, especially the bone structure (Breton tend to be a liiiiiiiittle less boney in the face). Simple illusion spells are simple. Reshaping your bone structure? Like that's not going to hurt at -all-.

And people don't ordinarily wake up to cover their race because they simply want to be another race in the real world. We also don't have 'real' vampires. People running around claiming they're a vampire, but this isn't the appropriate place to even make the comparison. It's not valid.

Also, again. I said I didn't care either way what we got. So long as the current looks get fixed, and my issues subside with the porcelain doll look; I'd be fine with it because design flaws should be fixed no matter WHAT.

This is out of hand. You seem to not understand anything we are saying.

My only point was that asking for new skins for vampires, and asking for vampires to look like they are not vampires are 2 very different requests and one is far more likely to be well received than the other.

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

I'm going to dissect this bit by bit.

1)

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

I never said EITHER of you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said those in the thread. A very distinct difference. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize, but regardless the point has been beaten to death. Regardless, the only reasons why you should ever know you're in front of a vampire is if you're fighting one, or you're looking for a bite.

2)

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

My main reasoning is that there's enough logic to support it; yes.

3)

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

Please tell me how feigning mortality is the same as masking your race? That isn't the same request. One is masking an effect. Since when is race an effect? LOL! Sorry, but no. That argument is just silly.

How is it the same? How is it not the same? How would a Vampire hide their affliction? Illusion spells? Makeup? Clothing? So... The exact same way a Bosmer would pretend to be a Breton?I mean people mask their race in the real world all the time without magic.

How is it not the same? Race does not affect your ability to die. Some people live longer, but they none the less die. How would they? Illusion spells to put a little color in their skin. That's a farcry away from transmogrify your entire -race-. There's a little more affected with a Bosmer to Breton. Ears, nose, eyes and mouth separation. Reshaping of the face, especially the bone structure (Breton tend to be a liiiiiiiittle less boney in the face). Simple illusion spells are simple. Reshaping your bone structure? Like that's not going to hurt at -all-.

And people don't ordinarily wake up to cover their race because they simply want to be another race in the real world. We also don't have 'real' vampires. People running around claiming they're a vampire, but this isn't the appropriate place to even make the comparison. It's not valid.

Also, again. I said I didn't care either way what we got. So long as the current looks get fixed, and my issues subside with the porcelain doll look; I'd be fine with it because design flaws should be fixed no matter WHAT.

This is out of hand. You seem to not understand anything we are saying.

My only point was that asking for new skins for vampires, and asking for vampires to look like they are not vampires are 2 very different requests and one is far more likely to be well received than the other.

I'm going to put this as clear as day for you one. LAST. Time. Are you ready?

1) You brought up the subject of race vs vampirism. These aren't comparable. It is a baseless argument. I understand completely what you're saying. It's simply absurd to state that illusion spells are simple enough to change your entire race. Let's see you hide a snout and a tail with an illusion spell according to the lore, because that type of magic isn't illusion. Arguing the fact that Razum-Dar did something similar was more than just a simple illusion spell. There's even dialogue of him wanting to peek at the alterations.

2) I keep having to correct you because apparently it's NOT getting through. I DID NOT ASK OR REQUEST ANYTHING. I simply agreed with the motion and would accept a compromise. I couldn't care less if it was more likely received or not. It's not happening at all. The fact that these problems have existed since their inception and not fixed is WHY we've gotten to this point. I presented alternatives as a POSSIBLE request, but I never flat out said "This is what they should do."

kamimark wrote: »

arcadiadark wrote: »

tldr its cute that you all think vampires shouldn't be able to hide their vampirism but I gave you a lore reason along with equally restrictive and hideous bypasses for hiding it. if you want vampires to look like that just stay looking like a vampire? a smart vampire would blend in to the crowds in the city anyway. cosmetic changes will not increase my dps or give me an advantage over other players...

I'm fine with you bloodsucking leeches being able to disguise your disease temporarily, with a 5 minute duration like the Monk's Disguise, if you are immediately attacked by guards if you're not disguised and show any signs of disease. That seems fair and accurate to lore.

But you don't get attacked in skyrim if you download dawnguard so I can say not being attacked at all is fair to gameplay

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

I'm going to dissect this bit by bit.

1)

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

I never said EITHER of you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said those in the thread. A very distinct difference. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize, but regardless the point has been beaten to death. Regardless, the only reasons why you should ever know you're in front of a vampire is if you're fighting one, or you're looking for a bite.

2)

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

My main reasoning is that there's enough logic to support it; yes.

3)

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

Please tell me how feigning mortality is the same as masking your race? That isn't the same request. One is masking an effect. Since when is race an effect? LOL! Sorry, but no. That argument is just silly.

How is it the same? How is it not the same? How would a Vampire hide their affliction? Illusion spells? Makeup? Clothing? So... The exact same way a Bosmer would pretend to be a Breton?I mean people mask their race in the real world all the time without magic.

How is it not the same? Race does not affect your ability to die. Some people live longer, but they none the less die. How would they? Illusion spells to put a little color in their skin. That's a farcry away from transmogrify your entire -race-. There's a little more affected with a Bosmer to Breton. Ears, nose, eyes and mouth separation. Reshaping of the face, especially the bone structure (Breton tend to be a liiiiiiiittle less boney in the face). Simple illusion spells are simple. Reshaping your bone structure? Like that's not going to hurt at -all-.

And people don't ordinarily wake up to cover their race because they simply want to be another race in the real world. We also don't have 'real' vampires. People running around claiming they're a vampire, but this isn't the appropriate place to even make the comparison. It's not valid.

Also, again. I said I didn't care either way what we got. So long as the current looks get fixed, and my issues subside with the porcelain doll look; I'd be fine with it because design flaws should be fixed no matter WHAT.

This is out of hand. You seem to not understand anything we are saying.

My only point was that asking for new skins for vampires, and asking for vampires to look like they are not vampires are 2 very different requests and one is far more likely to be well received than the other.

I'm going to put this as clear as day for you one. LAST. Time. Are you ready?

1) You brought up the subject of race vs vampirism. These aren't comparable. It is a baseless argument. I understand completely what you're saying. It's simply absurd to state that illusion spells are simple enough to change your entire race. Let's see you hide a snout and a tail with an illusion spell according to the lore, because that type of magic isn't illusion. Arguing the fact that Razum-Dar did something similar was more than just a simple illusion spell. There's even dialogue of him wanting to peek at the alterations.

2) I keep having to correct you because apparently it's NOT getting through. I DID NOT ASK OR REQUEST ANYTHING. I simply agreed with the motion and would accept a compromise. I couldn't care less if it was more likely received or not. It's not happening at all. The fact that these problems have existed since their inception and not fixed is WHY we've gotten to this point. I presented alternatives as a POSSIBLE request, but I never flat out said "This is what they should do."

I did bring it up.
Because...
Asking for your race visuals to not match your race selection is functionally the exact same as asking for your vampire affliction visuals to not match your vampire affliction. It is the exact same as far as gameplay functionality is concerned. It is the same as asking for your weapons to be swords but show as Maces, it is the same as asking for your armor to be heavy but show as light. It is the functional same as asking for your character to be shown as mounted even when they are not mounted!

You are asking for your character to be shown in a way that the game mechanics say they are not but you find more visually appealing. ZOS and other players do not like that.

As to your #2 point. I assumed you wanted the vampire skins changed, and I assumed you wanted to be able to hide your vampirism. They way you worded your reply seemed like a request. I now understand that you want neither and were just stating the arguments of people who are requesting the vampire skins to be changed and fixed.

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I don't understand this debate at all...

If you don't want to look like a vampire all you have to do is feed. That's the entire mechanic right?
When you feed you look a little pale, but otherwise normal. If you let the monster out, then you look like a monster.

Or is it just that you want more vampire skin tones at stage 1?

Part of the problem is that at any stage, it covers any and all markings applied either most of the way (generally your face paints) or completely. Which people buying these markings from the Crown Store could potentially lose out on the ability to have that being that it's that insane and hardly normal. That alone, I'd compromise for. How would dye under the skin outpale those colors. This even applies to face paints. How does vampirism pale facepaint when it's not beneath the skin?

However there's a little more involved with it. Certain things shouldn't dim with the skin tone and people know this. Others, like myself, have argued the lore standpoint (which in my opinion should be a timed and slotted skill).

Other parts of it is that people use the stage mechanics in RP to metagame, which presents a problem. Or the simple fact that if a group see you at stage 4 and running vCoA II will boot you regardless if your character is their strongest at stage 4 (which is what I always run at most of the time). Those two aren't drawbacks via game mechanic.

Edited for further clarity on who'll give you the boot with vampirism with a little added explanation.

These seem like two completely different requests.

In the first you are seeming to ask for vampirism to not overwrite tattoos or face paint at stage 1. Which I would guess is a reasonable request to most players. The Devs seem to agree with the idea that at stage 1 vampires should look more or less normal. And to maintain that the player must feed often. Makes sense.

But your second request seems to be a desire to hide your vampirism from other players to either trick them, or make them believe falsely that you are not playing a stage 4 vampire. Which is likely where you get a lot of backlash from in these topics. You cannot hide your class, your WW form, or your weapon type. Why should you be able to hide your stage 4 vampirism? Especially since Stage 4 Vampirism has always been something you couldn't hide. I'm pretty sure in every ES game.

Push for ZOS to make stage 1 more normal looking, that is the only one that makes sense.

They seem like it, but it isn't. Tattoos and face paints (or any body paint for that matter) should NOT be affected by any stage of vampirism what so ever. Again, how exactly would paint on top of the skin pale in complexion with the face? It's an absurd, silly bug. Furthermore, tattoo dyes don't pale within the skin immediately. It's through fibroblast absorption that does this.

The second is from a lore perspective, yet having a willing compromise as in the lore it does state we should be able to deceive. Go through the vampire quests (Rivenspire and the actual vampirism skill line quest); tell me that they don't say that. In single player games; Vampire Seduction was used to conceal it, not to mention completely different strains. Lycanthropy is a completely different paradigm you're trying to argue, and weapons aren't even remotely comparable. These aren't relevant arguments to vampirism as you (and many others) are neglecting a few things.

1. Lycanthropy is a shifting disease. Not a parasitic disease. That's like comparing PC to Console. It doesn't work.
2. TES Single player strains of vampirism varies; some damage in the sun, others sag with less feedings, and Skyrim was more beastly with DLC (though non-DLC vampires were weakened by the sun). Comparing these strains would be comparing several types of a similar species in the same genus. While there are similarities, there are vast differences as well.
3. Based on much of this game's lore there's two questlines that says we should be able to.

These are facts. While loosely watered down (because I can't be bothered to google that for you) hard ones, they are none the less facts. The only reason why people are against it is because they can't be bothered to pay attention. If people don't want it in Cyrodiil; HAVE IT DISABLED IN CYRODIIL OR PVP OF ANY KIND. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion.

HOWEVER, as you started putting words in my mouth, I said I was willing to compromise if they fixed the facepaints and tattoos from dulling in color because that's not how those things should operate.

Edit; @Emencie I also encourage you to participate in this test. Pick out the vampire;

But they are very different requests. I'm not going to throw down any lore or anything, just try to follow me here.

What if I made a request for a permanent skin/ability/skill that let me hide that my Redguard was a Redguard? I could change him to look like an Altmer or something. After all there are already skins, costumes, and full armor that when worn obscure my race from another. Your picture is a great example of this, after all we cannot pick out which one is the Nord.

So why not make it so that we can hide/change our race at will?
This is what you are asking for with your second request. People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

This is why people are against that request.

However your other request, having to do with skin shades, warpaint, and tattoos (especially at stage 1) Is more of a bug fix. See the Vampire skin is currently an overlay that covers your entire character model, and really it should be a skin color change. This request to me is not you trying to hide vampirism, but simply fix a bug. This is completely different request and definitely more reasonable not to mention a lot easier for people to take.

That is what I mean by you have 2 separate requests.

1) I'm not going to follow you because the arguments you're presenting have no intrinsic background. No offense, but races to afflictions are like comparing PCs to Consoles. It doesn't work. It's baseless in the standpoint of PvE. Because you can't make your Nord look like a Redguard (which completely circumvents lore), a vampire shouldn't be able to feign mortality. These are completely two different paradigms. Not treating them as such is like the argument of tomatoes being a fruit. Pointless and trivial. You're just going to have to accept that. Also, why are you so fixated on being another race when a vampire isn't TRYING to be another race? They're disguising their effects of immortality.

2) If you've been actually reading (I think you're skimming for the most part), you'd have seen me say that I was willing for compromises. That's far from being a request. The compromise was, to correct you, fixing these things from being affected by skin color changes what so ever. Doesn't matter the stage. Tattoos change by fibroblast absorption. That's science. Face paint? Both of them shouldn't change in ANY stage.

3)

People do not like the idea of you taking a skill line (which is all a race is) and being able to display that you took a different skill line, or didn't take the skill line at all. The visual representation is important to us and the Devs.

People don't like Wrobel being in charge of what he's in charge of, but we don't get to change that now do we? This is irrelevant because you've no idea what the devs want. I don't. Speaking on their behalf isn't making your viewpoint look any better to me.

4) Here's why people are against the 'request', in which I didn't even invoke (again, if you were following along I simply agreed with the movement. I couldn't care less wtf we get).

• PvP; They need to know that they're attacking a vampire because rotations are apparently important.
• Races are the same thing as afflictions and work in the same paradigms (which how is immortality racial?)
• Disguises already ridiculously easy to do and generally people aren't noticing the vampirism first. They're noticing the motifs. Anyone can get vamp. But most of the time they're all "GURL, THAT SET UP IS DANK." Even when I show skin.

The thing is that the more arguments that come against it, the more those arguments feel like opinions based on a slippery slope fallacy.

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I think vampires look cool. So personally, I don't care about this.

The best argument against your suggestion is that it prevents people from being able to tell who is a vampire. You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume. But is that really the case? Because when I put on a costume I still look like a vampire.

So my preference is that they keep it the way it is. If it bothers other players that much, I could live with allowing players to hide the monster though. There are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable change. But when it comes to my list of priorities, this isn't even on the list.

Costumes are different than polymorphs. Disguises are different than costumes as well. So it really is the case that it totally conceals your character's vampirism. You can also be fully clad in various styles where you 100% don't show skin.

Tell me; can you deduce which character is a vampire and which isn't? Or is this not preventing deduction of vampirism?

There is a difference in covering up your face with a helmet so people can't see that you are a vampire - and then being a vampire yet not looking like one. In my post I was referring to the latter.

I assumed that disguise meant a costume.

Fair point about polymorphs and skins - but these items are designed to alter your character into something else. So I would not compare them as being the same as having the option to hide the characteristics of your race or as in this case your vampirsm.

What exactly, pray tell, is the difference? How it's concealed? The same outcome is achieved and in PvP unless they're running addon's no one's the wiser.

As for polymorphs and skins; they are comparable to the point that people were making; that they wanted to know who was a vampire and who wasn't. With those, again, it covers it up. My point is, the PvP argument is at best, an attempt at QQing over something as harmless as a vampiric disguise.

The difference is in your example they still look like vampires - they are just covering it up with armor. You could do the same with your race as I was pointing out. It's hard to tell if someone is a Nord or a High Elf if they completely cover their body in armor. But I don't see that as the same as being able to turn off your racial characteristics. Do you?

Is an elf putting on a helmet the same as giving them the option to hide their pointy ears and instead making them round like regular humans? I just don't see this comparison as the same.

Also: my comments really didn't have anything to do with PvP. It just had to do with being able to tell a vampire from a non-vampire - much the same way you should be able to tell a Nord from a High Elf. I believe vampires should look differently - and not the same as non-vampires.

All that being said: and as I emphasized in the post you responded to - there are numerous examples of vampires hiding their true form. So it's not an unreasonable or stupid request to want to ask for this ability. It's just not an option I personally care for.

My comments in fact DID. That's the point I think you're missing. Race, while different from the disease, is semi-valid; however there's a slight issue.. The only things people can legitimately QQ over is the fact that they wouldn't know when to Dawnbreaker, which with the current meta? I'd LOVE to have a Dawnbreaker to the face because it's all about EotS right now. The biggest argument about having a disguise? Is that.

As for the other things, how would it bother YOU if people were using it outside of PvP? Why would you need to spot a vampire? If you're running vCoA II or vDSA, vampires run through those all the time just fine. If it's for RP, you really shouldn't use in game stage mechanics to metagame your prey. Aside from that, it literally doesn't affect you what so ever. That's also what I meant by, "What difference does it make?"

I'm not missing your point. That's why I just reassured you that my comments had nothing to do specifically with PvP. It was you who responded to my post after all - and my post did not even mention PvP.

I also never said it would have a negative effect on me personally if vampires looked the same as everyone else. I'm not so fragile that failing to incorporate a unique look for vampires into the game is going to cause me to distress. But it would cheapen that aspect of the game IMHO. Because I like how vampires have a distinctive look from those who are not vampires. It adds diversity to the game and makes it more interesting.

You first came into the thread with this;

You point out you can hide this anyway by wearing a costume.

That point was specifically catered to those stating it was an issue that they needed to know what they were fighting. It was a baseless argument.

And honestly, if you're not cheapened out of the game just yet? Wait. You'll get there.

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

It comes down to this.

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

These are the same request with the same reasoning. If you cannot see that. Then you are choosing not to.

I'm going to dissect this bit by bit.

1)

Neither one of the people you have quoted have mentioned anything about PvP at all.
Literally neither of us have even brought it up.

I never said EITHER of you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said those in the thread. A very distinct difference. If that wasn't clear, I do apologize, but regardless the point has been beaten to death. Regardless, the only reasons why you should ever know you're in front of a vampire is if you're fighting one, or you're looking for a bite.

2)

You want to be a vampire, but not look like a vampire. Your main reasoning is that it's because you can cover up vampirism with skins, armor and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Vampire to pass as a non vampire.

My main reasoning is that there's enough logic to support it; yes.

3)

I want to be a Bosmer but look like a Breton. My main reasoning is that it's because I can already cover up my woodelfness with skins, armor, and costumes, and the lore supports that it is possible for a Bosmer to pass as a Breton.

Please tell me how feigning mortality is the same as masking your race? That isn't the same request. One is masking an effect. Since when is race an effect? LOL! Sorry, but no. That argument is just silly.

How is it the same? How is it not the same? How would a Vampire hide their affliction? Illusion spells? Makeup? Clothing? So... The exact same way a Bosmer would pretend to be a Breton?I mean people mask their race in the real world all the time without magic.

How is it not the same? Race does not affect your ability to die. Some people live longer, but they none the less die. How would they? Illusion spells to put a little color in their skin. That's a farcry away from transmogrify your entire -race-. There's a little more affected with a Bosmer to Breton. Ears, nose, eyes and mouth separation. Reshaping of the face, especially the bone structure (Breton tend to be a liiiiiiiittle less boney in the face). Simple illusion spells are simple. Reshaping your bone structure? Like that's not going to hurt at -all-.

And people don't ordinarily wake up to cover their race because they simply want to be another race in the real world. We also don't have 'real' vampires. People running around claiming they're a vampire, but this isn't the appropriate place to even make the comparison. It's not valid.

Also, again. I said I didn't care either way what we got. So long as the current looks get fixed, and my issues subside with the porcelain doll look; I'd be fine with it because design flaws should be fixed no matter WHAT.

This is out of hand. You seem to not understand anything we are saying.

My only point was that asking for new skins for vampires, and asking for vampires to look like they are not vampires are 2 very different requests and one is far more likely to be well received than the other.

I'm going to put this as clear as day for you one. LAST. Time. Are you ready?

1) You brought up the subject of race vs vampirism. These aren't comparable. It is a baseless argument. I understand completely what you're saying. It's simply absurd to state that illusion spells are simple enough to change your entire race. Let's see you hide a snout and a tail with an illusion spell according to the lore, because that type of magic isn't illusion. Arguing the fact that Razum-Dar did something similar was more than just a simple illusion spell. There's even dialogue of him wanting to peek at the alterations.

2) I keep having to correct you because apparently it's NOT getting through. I DID NOT ASK OR REQUEST ANYTHING. I simply agreed with the motion and would accept a compromise. I couldn't care less if it was more likely received or not. It's not happening at all. The fact that these problems have existed since their inception and not fixed is WHY we've gotten to this point. I presented alternatives as a POSSIBLE request, but I never flat out said "This is what they should do."

I did bring it up.
Because...
Asking for your race visuals to not match your race selection is functionally the exact same as asking for your vampire affliction visuals to not match your vampire affliction. It is the exact same as far as gameplay functionality is concerned. It is the same as asking for your weapons to be swords but show as Maces, it is the same as asking for your armor to be heavy but show as light. It is the functional same as asking for your character to be shown as mounted even when they are not mounted!

You are asking for your character to be shown in a way that the game mechanics say they are not but you find more visually appealing. ZOS and other players do not like that.

As to your #2 point. I assumed you wanted the vampire skins changed, and I assumed you wanted to be able to hide your vampirism. They way you worded your reply seemed like a request. I now understand that you want neither and were just stating the arguments of people who are requesting the vampire skins to be changed and fixed.

Either you're trolling at this point, or you're not grasping the leap between types of magic here and I'm not going to repeat it a fifth time. You can re-read it if you care to, but in preservation of the thread it's stopping here.

Regardless, I can tell AGAIN you didn't read according to this statement here;

You are asking for your character to be shown in a way that the game mechanics say they are not but you find more visually appealing. ZOS and other players do not like that.

No. I wasn't asking for a damn thing. I simply agreed with the motion. That isn't asking for anything. That's just agreeing with the OP.

I assumed you wanted the vampire skins changed

That's your problem right there. That bolded part. I offered alternatives, which is a bit more constructive than what we're doing here. Offering alternative ideas is not the same thing as a want. So in the future; don't assume. You know what they say about it.

Anyways, I'm pretty much discussing this subject further with you until you can come back with something a little more constructive than what you're trying to do. The race argument is dead, Jim. I'm not going to see eye to eye with you on that, I've given enough rebuttals in different angles. It's dead. Let it gooooo.