IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

To all the people trying to come up with solutions for Grim Focus with only PvE in mind (auto-recast on spectral bow): GTFO. Even in PvE it will be far too strong with the proper buffs. 65k+ Assassin's Wills are not uncommon, having that every 5 seconds is stupidly strong. This will lead to a damage nerf and at that point everyone will be mad.

To all the people arguing about balance of Grim Focus and saying PvE doesn't matter: GTFO. Its part of the game, its just as important as PvP.

So far, none of the proposed solutions even come close to what a balanced Grim Focus would be. The mechanic is absolute *** but it is essential to not making magNBs OP. So only a complete overhaul of the skill would solve the issue.

I used to think that an auto recast would be perfect, then I decided to mess with some DPS numbers...

As I proposed this change would hand in hand with raiseing the requirement of light attacks to 5 so the frequency wouldn´t change. It will still be ~6% of your parse in pve nothing will change execpt for more force pulses. Maybe you can push your dps by 1-2k with this change maybe its gonna be more maybe less that needs testing but it definitely won´t by any stretch be op .

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Coming from a long-time PvE and PvP mageblade with vMoL completed forever ago, parsing 45k dps with purple gear and using Refreshing Path at the time, and nearly 183 days /played on my main character.

People are whining way too much right now, fixated on the Strife cost increase and overlooking so many wonderful changes. So far you've given us attempted QoL fixes on cloak and shade for PvP, dps buffs to path for PvE, slight changes to Manifestation of Terror (more still needed), and 8% bonus single target or aoe damage dealt by wielding a fire or lightning staff.

I have noticed that staff change has been overlooked by all the mageblade whining, but it's the single biggest change for the class this patch.

Yes, the other classes will benefit from it as well, but it's a huge help to us.

Thank you specifically for not fundamentally changing Grim Focus's casting mechanics like this vocal minority is calling for, but instead tuning up dps through Path. Wise move.

I see the big picture here, from an informed and experienced perspective. Strife was cheap. The change leaves me scratching my head, but it will be inconsequential in the end. The rest of these changes have been well-placed. I hope you keep up the positive effort.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Now for a damage threshold before the Agony cc breaks so that dots don't immediately break it, an aoe PvP oriented synergy for Consuming Darkness, and further reworks to Manifestation of Terror and Soul Siphon.

people complaining because zos is more and more polarizing magicka users into 1 weapon option: destro staff.

While I agree with majority of what is stated in the OP, I firmly believe a fundamental change to Grim Focus is necessary. I too have 200 days played on my magblade, and am equipped with a very robust and diverse collection of knowledge and experience on the class. ZOS's strategy of simplifying rotations should be carried through to other classes, specifically magicka NBs and magicka DKs. I carry a deep respect for complexity of our rotations, and while I firmly believe that making the choice between reapplying a buff and using a spammable weave instead affords us a more meaningful and skill-based rotation, it is flawed by design relative to the function of all other class buffs. It should be changed so that buff mechanics are more consistent from class to class.

I propose that Grim Focus be redesigned so that the Minor Berserk and Assassin's Will components are separated from each other and treated independently. Minor Berserk should last for the full duration of the buff. Assassin's Will procs should be available after 4 successful light/heavy attacks (as is currently true), and should be allowed to proc and fire as many times as possible within the duration of the buff. If an Assassin's Will proc is afforded prior to the buff expiring and is not cast, it should be lost when the buff ends. What this means is that Assassin's Will would not proc if Focus was not active, but would not require a re-cast after firing Assassin's Will; the buff itself is independent for its duration, but the proc can only occur while it is active.

Increasing the cost of strife itself is relatively inconsequential for pve. The main issue I would like to see addressed is the issue it causes with light and heavy attacks not registering damage, even though the animation is being completed. It's adversely impacting the proc rate on Assassin's Will and a cost increase should come alongside of or after a fix. Increasing the cost is fine, but leaving it broken is not.

pieratsos wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote:

While you may say that this perspective only has pvp in mind, balance should always be done with pvp in mind first. This is because the devs can balance pve in different ways such as changing the actual content, introducing sets that benefit specific classes more (Illabris, Soulshine, Spell Power Cure on a mageblade, etc.), changing what the skills actually do in pve (negate, ambush), the competitiveness of pvp, gear having more of an effect on dps than skill, and the fact that pve is the same thing over and over again making it easier while pvp is always different and involves fighting enemies that can reason.

@LeifErickson this strikes me is a load of hogwash.

I'd wager that you think PvP should be the primary focus of balance because you primarily play PvP. It's based on self-interest, not reason.

Same goes for your ridiculous assessment of PvP vs. PvE. They are vastly different end-games that require different skill-sets. One is not "easier" than the other in a general sense. Do you even play end-game PvE? Do you know how many hundreds of hours guilds spend perfecting group composition and DPS rotations and strategies and tactics to get leaderboard times in Trials? It took over 5 months before the first guild was able to complete vMoL HM.

LeifErickson wrote:

People have said where mageblades are weak (pve dps, a very small part of the game)

You think PvE DPS is a "very small part of the game?"

Yes but it is the same thing over and over again. So that guild that took 5 months to clear that trial has done it so many times now that they can do it easily. It is easy for them because it is the same content over and over. It never changes. They can use the same strategy they used last time. Because how much they practiced, they know how to do what they need to do almost subconsciously, which I would say means it is easy.

I use to do pve. I don't do it anymore because I got bored and didn't like how I had to have this gear set and that weapon with this amount of cp and that amount of gold mats. I have cleared every single pve content in the game except vMoL HM and vAA HM. Only reason I don't have those complete is because I have never attempted them and never joined a guild that was attempting them. I was one of the first few stamblades NA PC to clear vMA flawlessly and I started the flawless run before I even had 400 cp. This was back in Thieves Guild POST stamblade nerfs (siphoning attacks) before you could one shot everything in there with proc sets and before it got nerfed.

I said pve dps is a small part of the game because I was making the comparison of that to dueling. What I meant was that if we are going to buff something, than dueling (because plenty of 1v1s do happen in open world pvp believe it or not that can be crucial to a fight) should be consider at least as equally as pve dps.

Even tho i find PVE boring and i dont really care how much DPS can magblades pull, you cant compare it with duelling. Its not about whether it is a minority or not in the game. If magblades are not pulling enough dmg in PVE then the class is underperforming. There is really no doubt about that. If magblades can kill or die in duels it doesnt mean that they are overperforming or underperforming because of counters. Thats the difference. And open world 1v1 is not the same as a duel. You use different abilities, cp layout etc in duels. In open world u are just running ur open world setup. And magblade vs sorc is actually the perfect example. In a duel u can cc a sorc with flame reach from range to follow with assassins will. In open world u will most likely have fear on ur bar and not flame reach. Its not gonna be that simple to get through sorc mines.

He isn't comparing them to each other directly. He's pointing out that PvE dps parses are the building blocks of larger scale PvE content in the same way that duels are the building blocks of larger scale PvP content.

Thats what ive been saying. Duels are not the building blocks of larger scale PVP at their current state. There are way too many things going wrong in duels, especially now. Thats why i gave the example of magblade vs sorc in an open world 1v1 and a duel. In a duel you are not building around urself like in open world. You are building around ur opponent. In a duel you know ur opponent. In open world u have to build around urself so u can face everyone.
Anw the point is that most of us dont even want grim focus to be buffed. Its a very powerful ability with unique mechanics and u have to be skilled to make it work. Its the perfect ability. It just needs to be more reliable in PVP. The fact that a change can benefit both stamblades and magblades in PVE too its a bonus and thats why grim focus seems to be the perfect ability to tweak. If u dont want grim focus to change then u have to give other alternatives on how to buff them in PVE cause they do need a buff. Your only suggestions were to buff the dmg on other abilities but that actually can make them OP in PVP cause magblades are not lacking in dmg. Its just that their burst isnt too reliable.

In PvP I feel it's the complete opposite. Magblade damage is extremely low but it's burst is extremely high. Magblade damage is probably the lowest of all classes but it's burst ranks near the top. I think adding more damage elsewhere will help the class out alot. Like if they buff the dot damage of agony and add a execute component like poison injection that should raise overall DPS in PvE and put more pressure on opponents in pvp. I actually think merciless is fine and should stay the way it is, but I'm not against a change if most of the community is having problems with the skill. I will say this about buffing the ability though I'm already shooting the bow every 5 or 6 seconds in pvp and with this change me procing the bow will be more frequent, that may be a little op. I also agree with what you said about duels. In duels flame reach cc magblade is almost unstoppable. In open world not so much lol

OdinForge wrote: »

Magblade felt more than fine to me on PTS, most people who play the game just literally have no idea what to do. The gap between skilled players and fodder is so large in ESO.

I mean strife literally only increased by 300 in cost, it used to cost under 1K.

*shrugs*

I think most players are mad at the change seeing as most of us were expecting buffs to magblade for open world pvp and are just confused on why they nerfed strife for what seems to be no reason. Magblade still has one problem in open world pvp and that's snares magblades struggle with snares and roots more than any other class. And mist form is counterproductive to magblade because all your hots stop ticking in mist form and your main defense is hots. Plus players are getting smarter, when they see you mist form they just spam ambush

Brrrofski wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Magblade felt more than fine to me on PTS, most people who play the game just literally have no idea what to do. The gap between skilled players and fodder is so large in ESO.

I mean strife literally only increased by 300 in cost, it used to cost under 1K.

*shrugs*

The point is, why nerf it? Mageblade is behind others classes, so they nerf it? At the time, the path buff wasn't there. That buff still doesn't help mageblades in PvP. So class skill wise, they were still nerfed. Yes inferno got buffed, but that isn't a magica NB only thing. Sorcs, who are better for PvP mostly, got that too.

If the cloak fix is good it would mean good things for Magblade open world. I don't really feel as if Magblade is behind other classes in PvP, and if they actually are not by very much at all. I use refreshing path sometimes in PvP and it's really strong with the right build.

I can see new players having a hard time managing the merciless resolve proc, I don't think it should recast itself but they could probably increase the length the buff lasts a little. But they did say they had more notes incoming so maybe they have more Magblade changes planned that will paint a better picture as to why they touched strife.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Still last in dps vs other mage class's and they still increasing the cost of strife.. with no compensation in damage.

But...they did compensate damage...a little. They want to buff mageblade. They're just doing incremental changes.

Buff Path and Shade, and we can come back in line with other classes easily @ZOS_GinaBruno

it wont compensate enough.. because one is our spam.. and most used skill..

Yes it was nice to have path buffed.. but it still sub par compared to other class aoe dots.. but just that gap is a little closer. But compared to eruption or liquid lighting its still behind.. so yes the buff to path was in the right direction the nerf though to our main spam was not...

Now if there issue is non magic using it as a spam.. they need to address it in a different way.. such as adding a stam morph or making a morph that ups it damage but lowers the health co efficiency while increasing the cost to what it is now.

no changes to grim focus was also a missed opportunity... ya ya I know some like the clunky aspect of the skill.. but that does not make it a good game play mechanic because its a clunky system..

for a patch that was to be a over haul of the magic class's this was a pretty huge let down of a patch.. as the minor changes that we got in most other games would of been a monthly balance tweak. I think many are getting upset with these 4 month patchs is because they know nothing will be done it address any of this for a long time.. so they have to try to be as vocal about there disappointment in the limited time the devs appear to be paying attention to our posts.

This patch was never stated or intended to be an "overhaul" of anything. I don't know what you expected, but from your language, it appears to be more than ZOS ever said.

Grim Focus works smoothly once you learn its mechanics and practice with it. It just doesn't fit well into a PvE rotation because its mechanics are more designed for PvP combat. This triggers PvEers because it stands out in the kit as "that ability" that is flashy and dramatic, but hard to make work in dps rotations. They are clinging to it, calling for it to be gutted, instead of focusing on other places in the kit where dps can be raised.

It's entirely irrational, but it's human nature.

Also he cost nerf to Strife will have zero impact on dps, so your comment is flawed there. Don't mistake a cost nerf for a dps nerf. Use your minor magickasteal and orbs and the occasional siphoning attacks, and you'll be more than fine.

Devs would be way more likely to listen to the forums' input if the forums weren't full of garbage suggestions. Sorry to be blunt, but 99% of people on these forums have zero clue what they're talking about regarding class balance, and half of those who do are too biased toward PvE or PvP (it goes both ways) to provide any valuable feedback. This probably comes off as abrasive to hear, but I'm saying it calmly and objectively. It's just the way it is.

They could honestly quadruple Twisting Path's damage, or make it scale way up the longer the path stays out, and it wouldn't impact PvP in the slightest. That'd be a great shortcut way to getting competitive dps. That and shade buffs. I'd also like to see Agony's damage or dot duration increased, have the dot apply to bosses and stuff (not even sure if it can), and have that ability made into a competitive dps ability.

My point is that there are solutions to increasing mageblade dps AND the smoothness of the rotation that DON'T involve destroying a key PvP combat mechanic.

Oh really...

AUA for one Tamriel and Wrobel it was back in sept or aug this was said


"We always take feedback seriously. One Tamriel was so huge we had to focus on the balance and new item sets. With the next major update we will be focusing on class balance and abilities. We have a pretty cool new version of Dragon Blood planned that will help magicka DKs while maintaining it's power level for high health characters.

Yup, we definitely have planned a good list of buffs for magicka DK and also balance in general for magicka vs stamina DPS.

We want to make DK's have a unique playstyle that does not include an execute ability. Instead we want them to focus on pressuing enemy's health bars with DoT effects. We've got some sweet changes for magicka DKs planned for update 13!

We're already got a pretty significant list of buffs for magicka DKs coming with update 13 and we have been reading your feedback.""

Can't wait for you to argue that they only needed minor changes to balance magic vs stam when it comes to all aspects of the game...

How many other people need to argue with you till you come to the understanding your in the minority when it comes to Grim Focus... in another thread a console player had to explain how it was a problem and why it was so clunky on consoels.. and you come off with well on PC it's just fine...

Now you have PC and console players all telling you that no its not fine.. its dated and clunky system...

And yet you still argue...

funny as you claim 99% of the people out there have no clue.. well I hate to break it to you.. you are not in the 1% on the subject of magblades.. if you think the current form of grim focus is fine and dandy. You are not being in any way objective and anyone reading your blather can tell you're pvp elitist.. these are the truths and why so many are arguing with your incorrect assumptions on the issue.

Well the nerf to Incap is making the Majic morph even more useless . Sap tank is one play style that is still viable . Bomb blade can still be viable . The elusive duel wield straight caster and gank build is very difficult to pull off . Wish there were more sets to compliment this style as it is the most fun imo .

@NightbladeMechanics

You see what you freaking get for posting cocky stuff like this??

Way to go.

Thanks for the soul Harvest nerf.

Dude you are a real tool. Arguing against mNB buffs just cause you are happy.

Well now look what you've done. GG man GG...

Brrrofski wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Magblade felt more than fine to me on PTS, most people who play the game just literally have no idea what to do. The gap between skilled players and fodder is so large in ESO.

I mean strife literally only increased by 300 in cost, it used to cost under 1K.

*shrugs*

The point is, why nerf it? Mageblade is behind others classes, so they nerf it? At the time, the path buff wasn't there. That buff still doesn't help mageblades in PvP. So class skill wise, they were still nerfed. Yes inferno got buffed, but that isn't a magica NB only thing. Sorcs, who are better for PvP mostly, got that too.

If the cloak fix is good it would mean good things for Magblade open world. I don't really feel as if Magblade is behind other classes in PvP, and if they actually are not by very much at all. I use refreshing path sometimes in PvP and it's really strong with the right build.

I can see new players having a hard time managing the merciless resolve proc, I don't think it should recast itself but they could probably increase the length the buff lasts a little. But they did say they had more notes incoming so maybe they have more Magblade changes planned that will paint a better picture as to why they touched strife.

Yeh, I think merciless is fine as it is. I find the mechanic fine. But as I've mentioned, it's bugged on Xbox. Makes the proc noise but doesn't actually proc.

But compare a destro resto NB to a sorc. Sorc has better survivability due to using two shields (although NB does work better with heavy armor), better mobility with streak (cloak is very situational when it does work) and far better burst.

Curse, crushing shock weave, endless fury and procced frag can nuke a lot of people in like 5 seconds. On a NB you're putting on cripple, then weaving swlow soul 4 times before your nuke. Which, a lot of good players know is coming. So you need to cc before firing. Agony can break on a cripple dot so you need to fear, which means getting close.

Honestly, sustain is the only thing a NB has going for it over a sorc. Class ultimates are better for PvP, but destro ult is far superior on most situations anyway. Fear is a better cc then a sorc has, but does require more risk.

Shadow Image + Cloak >>>>>>>>> Streak

AzuraKin wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Magblade felt more than fine to me on PTS, most people who play the game just literally have no idea what to do. The gap between skilled players and fodder is so large in ESO.

I mean strife literally only increased by 300 in cost, it used to cost under 1K.

*shrugs*

I think most players are mad at the change seeing as most of us were expecting buffs to magblade for open world pvp and are just confused on why they nerfed strife for what seems to be no reason. Magblade still has one problem in open world pvp and that's snares magblades struggle with snares and roots more than any other class. And mist form is counterproductive to magblade because all your hots stop ticking in mist form and your main defense is hots. Plus players are getting smarter, when they see you mist form they just spam ambush

hots? lol what hots? strife for 50 hps after all the mitigation/damage reduction? or mutagen that requires restro staff, is not guaranteed to land on you? nb has no real defenses.

Strife hot is decent if you pump up your healing CP that alone will tic for around 1k so if you can manage to stay aggresive it's topping you off, then you can also use refreshing path on top of that and that ticks for about 1.5k. they aren't very strong separately compared to vigor, but if used properly they are the best defense a magblade has and are very useful

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Magblade felt more than fine to me on PTS, most people who play the game just literally have no idea what to do. The gap between skilled players and fodder is so large in ESO.

I mean strife literally only increased by 300 in cost, it used to cost under 1K.

*shrugs*

The point is, why nerf it? Mageblade is behind others classes, so they nerf it? At the time, the path buff wasn't there. That buff still doesn't help mageblades in PvP. So class skill wise, they were still nerfed. Yes inferno got buffed, but that isn't a magica NB only thing. Sorcs, who are better for PvP mostly, got that too.

If the cloak fix is good it would mean good things for Magblade open world. I don't really feel as if Magblade is behind other classes in PvP, and if they actually are not by very much at all. I use refreshing path sometimes in PvP and it's really strong with the right build.

I can see new players having a hard time managing the merciless resolve proc, I don't think it should recast itself but they could probably increase the length the buff lasts a little. But they did say they had more notes incoming so maybe they have more Magblade changes planned that will paint a better picture as to why they touched strife.

Yeh, I think merciless is fine as it is. I find the mechanic fine. But as I've mentioned, it's bugged on Xbox. Makes the proc noise but doesn't actually proc.

But compare a destro resto NB to a sorc. Sorc has better survivability due to using two shields (although NB does work better with heavy armor), better mobility with streak (cloak is very situational when it does work) and far better burst.

Curse, crushing shock weave, endless fury and procced frag can nuke a lot of people in like 5 seconds. On a NB you're putting on cripple, then weaving swlow soul 4 times before your nuke. Which, a lot of good players know is coming. So you need to cc before firing. Agony can break on a cripple dot so you need to fear, which means getting close.

Honestly, sustain is the only thing a NB has going for it over a sorc. Class ultimates are better for PvP, but destro ult is far superior on most situations anyway. Fear is a better cc then a sorc has, but does require more risk.

Shadow Image + Cloak >>>>>>>>> Streak

Not if you get jumped and don't have enough time to set it up. Or if you are getting beat on. sometimes if you are under heavy pressure your teleport will fail to teleport you

old_mufasa wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I said we need PvE dps buffs.

I also said we've gotten some so far with the patch notes, and I thanked ZOS for it.

Sorry but the Mageblade buffs in 2.7 are pretty neglectable. And your argument with the 8% more damage on staffs is pretty funny due to the fact that it changes nothing in the end because everybody gets the 8% bonus.

That comment was regarding PvP.

Erynyes wrote: »

how about making the berserk buff last more than 8 sec and keep the re-apply, i think it would be good for both pve and pvp... wait scratch that, this discussion isn't about having idea, it's about forum-pvper that know it all

Are you talking about Reaper's Mark's Major Berserk, or Grim Focus' Minor Berserk? Major lasts 5s, and Minor lasts 20s. I'd be down to see Reaper's buff become more accessible. It's a staple for PvP bombing, but that's about it as far as I know. Chaining it on adds in PvE can sometimes yield a dps boost, but it's small. Otherwise I'm confused about your suggestion. Your snippy comment isn't appreciated and only adds to their toxicity.

AzuraKin wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Magblade felt more than fine to me on PTS, most people who play the game just literally have no idea what to do. The gap between skilled players and fodder is so large in ESO.

I mean strife literally only increased by 300 in cost, it used to cost under 1K.

*shrugs*

I think most players are mad at the change seeing as most of us were expecting buffs to magblade for open world pvp and are just confused on why they nerfed strife for what seems to be no reason. Magblade still has one problem in open world pvp and that's snares magblades struggle with snares and roots more than any other class. And mist form is counterproductive to magblade because all your hots stop ticking in mist form and your main defense is hots. Plus players are getting smarter, when they see you mist form they just spam ambush

hots? lol what hots? strife for 50 hps after all the mitigation/damage reduction? or mutagen that requires restro staff, is not guaranteed to land on you? nb has no real defenses.

lolwut? Mageblade is entirely designed around layering hots...


@old_mufasa I don't understand your post. They've already made good moves toward closing the mag/stam PvE dps gap, and you still provide no reasoning behind needing to alter Grim Focus to further do so.

Do you even read peoples posts? or just comment to comment?

As with all the other peoples posts on why it needs a QOL change... I have repeatedly said just as others that the current form is clunky and dated.. and you did not understand the part where I said they needed to balance all aspects of the game when it comes to stam vs magic..(something they said would happen this patch) with out some major over hauls to certain aspects of each that wont be happening with this patch.

I read everything. No one has provided a reason to overhaul Grim Focus besides "it feels bad" or "it will be easier this way." DPS can be increased elsewhere in the kit, but people are fixating on this ability for some reason. You could argue that everything in the game is "dated" at this point -- the game is old. That's nothing more than empty rhetoric. As for "clunky," it actually works smoothly if you practice with it, except I heard that doesn't function properly on console. It should be fixed there, not changed. And the recast is necessary to keep it from being OP in PvP. I'm not sure what part of that is going over people's heads.

The stam/magicka dps divide has nothing to do with Grim Focus or this thread, but I genuinely hope stam classes in general, including nightblade, receive some love to bring them into line with magicka. I also genuinely hope both variants of nightblade can be raised into line with the other classes in PvE, but I still have yet to see a solid argument for why Grim Focus, out of the whole kit, has to be fundamentally changed to achieve that end.